253: Ben Leventhal

25:11One is for restaurants that focus on wine. Wine, you know, is this thing in restaurants where they charge corkage when you bring in bottles from outside because they want to make money on the wine that they've already purchased. So what if a restaurant for an annual membership fee waived corkage and created a program where they could give wine people better access to the restaurant by doing so? I think that's a great way to think about memberships in a fine dining context. Yeah, I mean it's really smart. I mean we think about like Peking Duck House is like the place you go when you want to crack bottles and have that fun low corkage night.

25:50But if you can get a membership, yeah, for like a place that you love the food, it makes sense. It's just it's got to be at a level that's high enough, right? For the restaurant? Yeah, like to make sense, especially for those folks who will be coming in regular. Yeah, of course. You know, it has to be a price that works for the restaurant and there has to be value for the consumer, of course. But I think those things are easily addressed. So NFTs, it's like the thing that art is usually bad, though. I love bananas art. It's very cool. But the art is so bad. And like I feel crypto, tough, tough, tough hang with crypto.

26:24these days. But I guess my question for you, Ben, is this was clearly presented and your company was founded well before this kind of crash down on NFTs. Do you see a future in NFTs? I do see a future in NFTs. I see a future in blockchain technology. I think what we've seen so far is what we always see with emerging technologies, which is there's a couple of kernels of stuff that's good and the rest of it's junk. The key thing about all of this and all of this being crypto, quote unquote crypto, Web3, is it's technology. It's not end consumer product. And the mistake that people have made is thinking about it as end consumer product.

27:13It's tech. It's like cloud computing, which is an analogy I've used before, but But the question is how do you point that at good consumer use cases and create magical consumer product? It's not going to be the end state. We have to build things on top of it. They're really consumer-focused. Facing. Sorry, they're really consumer-facing and things that – there's like some bit of marketing because like crypto and Web3 lost a lot of marketing equity with like the crash of it and like kind of like the bad vibes around it in general. I think the only brand that has done a worse job at marketing itself is New Jersey.

27:54I mean. So good. And Jersey is turning around, baby. Got to check out the North Jersey Shore. My sister-in-law is a big three of them. Shouting her out. No, that's funny, but it makes sense. And, you know, I look to you with really like a lot of like my eyes are open because when you launched Resi and the way the app worked, originally and especially when you were like selling tables which is a different model that you kind of retreated from quickly it was different and you were like plugged into something and the way it works with the maps is different but now we like use it it's normal yeah i think look i've enjoyed in my career thinking about things differently and um hopefully creating consumer products that feel magical for one way or another.

28:41The difference with Resi, the rule that we set up was you had to have a reservation in two taps. That was the sort of opportunity from a product standpoint. So we have some ideas about some things that are going to be magical for Blackbird, but we're just trying to move forward. It's cool, man. I'm rooting for you and I just, I'm really fascinated by the mind, power, and intellect you're putting into restaurants. It's cool. Let's move on to a little more general conversation about, like, where you're going. Let me ask you straight up. Do you have a single favorite chef in America right now? I don't.

29:18You didn't take the bait. Okay. Who excites you? Well, I think there's some exciting restaurants that are out there. There's exciting formats that are out there. I mean I'll give a shout out to Raff's on Elizabeth Street which is right next to Tom and Jerry's next to Tom and Jerry's where a lot of the you know web web one web one companies were born I guess Gawker Media Raff's keeps like pulling me back in I'm totally charmed by that place I think it's awesome I have been to my day on, uh, spring street a couple of times in two weeks. Cause another place that, um, I'm charmed by, look, I think we're post chef and that's not in any way, uh, meant to be disrespect to chefs.

30:12I think the cooking in the United States has never been better. I think the creativity, the vibrancy, um, the experimentation, um, is, has never been better, but I think we're post chef. And so, you know, it's not about, I think those names, but that being said, I do think, you know, Kwame Unwachi at Tatiana definitely deserves, uh, deserves a nod. I mean, that place is awesome. And the energy of that place is awesome. And I don't think you can kind of get that meal. Um, many other places in New York right now, when you put it all in the food and the energy and the setting. Um, so I guess that's another one.

30:51Those are great calls. And, and I'm I'm sure there's many other. You are a famous Keith McNally whisperer in some sense. I feel like you got Keith on the phone sometimes. You laugh, but I think you do. What's your assessment of Keith's empire right now in New York? I think early Eater days, you certainly covered Balthazar and Odeon. Though Odeon was not cool when you launched Eater, which is a whole conversation. Because I feel Odeon's resurgence has been super interesting with Gen Z. Because that place in 2003, I mean, no one was going to that place. It's been amazing to see Odeon and what's happened there.

31:25It's also – Odeon is like Bemelman's Bar. I don't know if you've been paying attention to what's going on up there, but Bemelman's Bar is another place that's been there forever, was very sleepy in 2003. It was like where your parents stayed. It's a line out the door. Literally, there's an hour away to get in there. Thanks to TikTok. TikTok. Thanks to some savvy marketers. what do i think about keith's empire is that the question yeah please i think keith's empire is sort of maturing and evolving the right way what i mean by that is it's nice to see that he's finally finding some scale around some of the businesses that have been one-offs for a very very long time you know keith is is the absolute best when it comes to building restaurants that people naturally connect to, that people are happy to be in.

32:19The thing about Keith for me is Balthazar has always been my happy place. And it's about the place. It's about the room. It's about the all-in experience of Balthazar. And when Balthazar was celebrating his 25th anniversary last year, I think, Like, you know, I was able to – Rezzy gave me a couple of column inches to write about what makes Balthazar special. And what I found talking to former maitre d's and people who work there now because I really wanted to talk to the insiders about it. It's just a room full of incredible details. And that's Keith. That's the point of Keith McNally is that the details are the whole show.

33:05And he's not thinking about scale. He's not thinking about 17 locations and putting – making this deal with this developer and licensing this thing. But I think as he's grown older and as the restaurants have grown older and time has gone on, I think that's become more of a focus for him. And I'm very happy to see that be the case because I think these are obviously incredibly durable, valuable brands. And the idea that there's now a couple of pasties with more coming and that there may be more Balthasar's coming someday, I think that's incredibly exciting. And Mineta, of course, you got to say, always seeing Mineta on television.

33:43It's literally one of the most shot restaurants in all of TV. And it goes on with him. And thanks, Ben, for sharing because it's cool that your point of view is really smart because it seems like Keith, you know, the P &Ls probably were looking pretty good. But they could have been better by, you know, selling in Dubai. But he didn't do that. and like I look at like a lot I respect restaurants as brands as to your point who um who focus on the details and like you know the operator you see because Keith's in his restaurants from what I could tell when he can be if you look at his feed and like that's the key right being in the restaurant and being the operator either the chef but mostly the owner and operator it's been fun to spend time with Keith over the years in some of the restaurants and this is really the case with any class A operator because they're so good at detail.

34:30But when you sit down with an operator like that and something's wrong, there is no conversation. They cannot focus on anything except the one tiny detail that's off in the room. And until that's addressed, until that's fixed, like the conversation at the table comes to a standstill. Oh, they literally leave. They literally, they either leave or they get up and fix it themselves, or they can't think about anything else. You're talking to them and they're not hearing it because all they're focusing on is that the coffee showed up with the espresso saucer and not the Americano saucer. God, I mean, restaurants are such theater.

35:08And really, it's just when you talk about it and you get going, it's cool. Like, you got stories. And it's like, this is theater. And everyone talks about this stuff. Like, go to any podcast. And we're getting a little meta here. But, like, go to any podcast, menswear podcast. you know, comedy podcast. And it's like restaurants are always at the top of the lineup of conversation. It's where we spend our time. Restaurants are where we spend our free time. Yeah. And this is not just a coastal conversation. This is happening in like places all over like Chicago, Houston, Sarasota. I mean, there's restaurants that build community, but also it's where we want to go for a happy place, as you just said about Balsar.

35:45I mean, this is another podcast in and of itself, But the amount – the bar on food in tertiary markets has gone up so much in the last decade. I mean you used to look at a market like Houston and the top of the market to – this compared to the top of the market in New York from sort of a sophistication and a sort of nuanced perspective. Like you didn't really – you couldn't really get that kind of restaurant in Houston. or Seattle or Chicago. Well, Chicago's - It's primary, but - We'll give Chicago credit. I think Philly is a great example. Philly, D.C. Yeah. The bar is so high in these markets now.

36:29Yeah. I mean, you can get an incredibly good meal in a great restaurant, meaning like well-built, well-designed, well-orchestrated in pretty much any city in the country now, which is kind of awesome. I mean it makes it harder obviously to break in and, you know, now like when you open a restaurant, the bar is a little bit higher. But that's happened in the last 10 or 15 years. And I think a big part of why everyone is talking about restaurants all the time. I agree. And all this to add, I think like just the diversity of chefs in these markets has really changed the game. I mean you see modern Korean restaurants in Houston or you'll see a restaurant with the focus on Trinidadian cuisine in not just Miami but in Florida, around the state.

37:14Two examples, but like it's diversity of our country has something to do with it and also diversity of our interests in food. It's nice to see all types of restaurants succeed. Totally. I'm going to get flack from my Chicago comment. But I do actually think even in Chicago, like 15 years ago, Chicago was about, you know, deep dish pizza and Alinea. And now when you go to Chicago, like what Kevin Boehm has been doing with Boca, what Brandon Sodikoff is doing with Hogsalt, those restaurants stand up to any restaurants anywhere in the world. Oh, my God. And let's not sleep on Detroit. I feel like Chicago gets a lot of love, but, man, Detroit is the next great food city in America.

37:56I'm saying it here. It's such an exciting place, just saying that. Detroit's got – the wonderful thing about Detroit is that the cost structure there is different. Yeah. And it gives them room to be creative and to stay loose, which is why that city feels so awesome. Yeah, it's kind of like how L.A. was in the early 2000s when L.A. felt a little loose because you could definitely cost structure-wise. Totally. But now L.A. is like super expensive. L.A. is proper tier one, you know, big swing kind of restaurant. One more question. Who do you see leading the way in New York City in the next 10 years?

38:32I know you're, I'm buying the chefs are kind of on the out and I like that point of view, but is there like a, it could be a restaurateur, it could be an operator, it could be anyone who you really want to see move along in the future. Well, I think the new guard is people like Kwame and the women who are running rafts and, you know, Brendan Sotikoff and, you know, certainly the major food group guys. These are the teams that are leading us forward. Calvin and the team at Bonnie's, you know. JP and Elliot, I don't know if I'll add a couple names there. I think Claire DeBoer at Jupiter and Sissinghouse as well.

39:17Claire and Annie, yep, yep, absolutely. It's an exciting city. New York, you know, a lot of people go up and down on the city, but you live here, you were born here. It's a good city, right? It's the best city. Ben, one last question. Everyone has taste in their life, and everyone is a tastemaker. Now, you obviously are a tastemaker for restaurants. You founded Resi and Eater. But is there a topic that you feel you're a tastemaker in that maybe we don't even know about? Well, this is going to show you what kind of one-track mind I have, but I do collect restaurant memorabilia, and I've gone way deep down the rabbit hole on eBay and on Etsy and even in the auction houses on artifacts from restaurants of the 20th century.

40:04And I don't know if you'd call me a tastemaker of that genre, but I am for sure obsessed with that stuff. And I love, if you look at a restaurant like 21 Club or Tavern on the Green or the Store Club and you look at how the brand evolved, you can see the phases. You can see the ups and the downs and the ebbs and the flows. And if you look at branding at, say, Tavern on the Green, you can see exactly where it went wrong. You can see exactly where that restaurant - Was that like 1985? It was probably right around there. Like the 80s is when that place went. You can see they lose course on the brand, and it exactly lines up with when the restaurant started to fail.

40:49That's so interesting. And is there like a grail or something you really seek out, a piece of memorabilia on your watch list? Well, early stuff from 21 Club is – there's a fair amount of it, but I tend to like to get that stuff. I also really love guidebooks from the very first part of the 20th century. That era, cool. You can read about restaurants when there were still a lot of speakeasies. That's— If you get a guidebook, if you get sort of like a sort of boutique guidebook to New York published in like 1939, 39, you can kind of, you get such a great sense of what it was like to dine out in New York at that time.

41:39That's, and you get the addresses too, so you could actually see the - Exactly, exactly. That's so interesting. Have you been down to Bonnie Slotnick in the East Village? No. Bonnie Slotnick has definitely some old guy books and, you know, she's a cookbook, it's a cookbook store. It's like on East 4th Street. I'll go see her this week. You should go check it out. It's a cool store. I feel like this is your book, Ben. I feel honestly, like I think What's the book? Show me what it is. It's photographing your collection. It also gives you a great example it gives you a great opportunity to buy more shit.

42:10Well, then I'm in. Then you're in. Okay. Ben Levenfahl thank you for joining Taste. Always a pleasure.

42:25Ozepa Boerwinter this is Taste. Hi. Great to see you. Great to be here. Really exciting. So much to cover. You know, you're the senior drinks editor at Food & Wine. Big job. We can talk about drinks all day. We will also talk about, you know, travel, some cookbooks. But what does this title, what does it all add up to? What is your purview? What is your remit? Oh, okay. So I handle drinks coverage for foodandwine.com. I like to joke that I've had pretty much every job one can have at Food & Wine. I've had two different print positions since I started about four years ago, and now I'm on the digital side.

43:06So, yeah, I produce our drinks content for the site, which includes wine, spirits, coffee, non-alcoholic beverages. Yeah, that is under my... NA is like a theme here. It's like you go to Erewhon and there's like 900 SKUs of NA. I went to Erewhon recently because my best friend moved to Santa Monica, and I lost myself there. It was very overwhelming. Yeah, because you see all the brands that you've been pitched. You see the brands that are new. It's the shoppy shop. It is the shoppy shop of drinks. It's amazing. So let's do lightning round. I really want to go through some categories. And really, the question is, what excites you?

43:43And so the first question is cocktails. What excites you about cocktails? What excites me about cocktails? I mean, there are some great canned cocktails out there. I have some favorites. I love, yeah, I mean, I love Tip Top. I love a couple of those kind of really well-made, smaller batch cocktails. They're really good. I mean, what about in the bars? Are you like exhausted by certain styles of cocktails? Are you excited by certain styles of cocktails? Yeah, I really love when menus break things out into non-alcoholic low ABV and then like a stronger ABV. So I think there are a couple of bars that do a really good job of this.

44:18One that comes to mind is like Jupiter in New York does a really nice job. I think they break it out as like spritzes or something like that. But being able to kind of have a bartender guide you through how much alcohol you're consuming with every drink is really great because at the end of the day, like you don't really know always how strong something is going to be. You don't want to like sit and do the math of like what that's going to look like. So I think it really excites me when bars are really transparent about dosing that way. Let's talk about cocktails plus cannabis. It's a topic that has really evolved, obviously, since decriminalization.

44:51has really taken over our country in the past five years. But what's exciting you there? I mean, everything. I love the culinary cannabis space. There's just so much innovation and so much passion, and people are being really thoughtful about it increasingly, you know, in terms of I can talk all day about brands that I think are doing a great job of working with producers or creating like closed-loop edibles. There are folks doing amazing things in the F &B space with cannabis. So I think it's that thoughtful sourcing that I get really into. Man. So is this is related? But I think when decriminalization really hit, there was like a there was a worry, I think, from the big alcohol brands like Bacardi and all those guys were thinking like our business might be fucked.

45:35Now, how is this like netted out? I mean, I actually moderated a panel last week about this kind of question. And I think increasingly it's not so much that cannabis-infused spirits are competing, quote-unquote, with regular spirits. It's that it's an alternative if you aren't looking to consume alcohol but you still want some kind of buzz or you want to, like, hold a drink that's not just seltzer or non-alcoholic. You can have that. I mean, I think there are a lot of people who see low-dose cannabis beverages as a great alternative. I think, like, one that comes to mind is CAN, which is C-A-N-N.

46:12They do these, like, two-and-a-half milligram seltzers, and I've written about them, and I think they're, like, a perfect cannabis beverage because you're not going to get super high, but it's still, like, a sessionable cannabis drink. Speak for yourself. 2.5 can knock my ass out. 2.5 THC and 5 CBD is, like, you can continue to have a conversation. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But let's move on to coffee, a micro topic here. What are you excited about about coffee? Good instant coffee. Yeah, I feel like instant coffee. I did an instant coffee story when I first started at Food & Wine back in 2019. And I was re-looking at the category a couple of weeks ago, actually, because there are so many new, like, roasters are paying attention to that segment.

46:52And I think it's because people are traveling. I think there's a lot of room for innovation. People are figuring out how to make instant coffee that doesn't taste like sawdust. And that's really cool. I've definitely dipped my toe in the instant game. I just think, yeah, it's great for a pinch. If you're in a pinch, you can use instant, but still. Right, or like on a flight and you don't want like Delta's whatever coffee. Yeah, Delta's whatever coffee is not my choice. Are there any roasters that come to mind that you like right now? Yeah. Roasters and making coffee? I love partners. I think they do great work.

47:24They're Australian, so they really know what they're talking about, and they're fairly small. I go to the partners in Williamsburg pretty often, love that space. Um, yeah, I'm originally from Princeton and there's small world coffee there. Um, I did like all of my college interviews at that cafe, but I really love their coffee. You love their, you have that, like, cause we have those connections to certain roasters, you know, it's not just about the coffee, it's about the environment. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Um, okay. Wine, big, big topic. Uh, what do you, what's going on in the world of wine right now?

47:52What is it going on? I mean, I feel like at any moment you can say X is a trend in wine or X is a trend that's over in wine, which, you know, we're talking about natural wine or grower champagne or, you know, bottled spritzes that sometimes involve wine. There's just so much there that I think something that's helpful for me to keep in mind is something could feel over or overdone through my lens as a millennial who lives in New York City and works in this industry. And then I'll go and spend time somewhere else in like a different market and be like, oh, yeah, no, people are like starting to talk about pet gnats here.

48:30Or like this bottle shop has three natural wines and like that's normal. And that's exciting. And so like some may shade natural wine as a trend that's like fading out, whatever. Some. Shading natural wine is as boring as saying you only drink natural wine. Agree. Well said. Thank you. It's just I'm tired of it. Like I feel as though people are just picking a stance just to pick a stance. It's very pick me. It's hard with editorial though because, and let me ask you this, like when you're thinking about the pages of food and wine and all the online content that you work on, you kind of have to pick a side.

49:02You kind of have to have a point of view, right? Yes. And have some kind of argument. For sure. I mean, I personally enjoy a lot of natural wine. I think over the years as I've tried more, I've kind of maybe figured out what aspects of natural wine excite me and what aspects are just like really good branding or this looks great on Instagram. Or, you know, they have a great distributor that's gotten them into every list in the city or lots of bottle shops. But for me, I think I am definitely still excited about it and interested in it. And I really enjoy having conversations with the producers that are doing it.

49:36I'm going to say like here for the right reasons, like The Bachelor, but like truly they're here for the right reasons. They're not like just looking to ride the marketing train. You know, the folks that put together things like raw wine, like there are producers there that really, really care about what natural wine means and aren't just looking to like be buzzy, if that makes sense. I love it. You have multiple certifications. We'll get into that. I want to dive into your wine background, but a few more topics. N.A. beer, quite exciting. I'll be honest with you. It's all part of my job. Beer is like the thing that I feel I am the least bit of an expert on.

50:12Yeah, it's a little too like gassy farty for you. I mean, it's my brother-in-law. Both of my brothers-in-law are like really, really into beer. And so I learn a lot from them. But I don't have a ton of like I enjoy Miller High Life. Yeah, no, I respect it. But, you know, listen, like you can't just. Like I like a Corona. I mean, listen, I was like, listen, listen, it's OK. I'm like, my heart is like kind of breaking. I know. I'm sorry. I am open to that is a room of there's room for me to grow. Yeah. I respect the honesty, too. And I don't know everything. I hire great beer writers. Agree. And that's what editorial is about.

50:50You can't know everything, especially if you're like working in the world of drinks. What about like water? Ooh. I mean, I love polar seltzer. Yeah. Like, let's go. Yeah. I'm from Massachusetts. I love polar. I think it's the best seltzer. And I will stand by that. Yeah. I mean, we were talking off mic about Vichy Waters. Not a fan. I mean, they're just, I want to like them because it feels like the cool kids, like Soms like them. But I just, they're not, they're just not, I don't think of it as water. It's something else. It's definitely in its own category. I was thinking about the Stewart's Vichy.

51:25they have their own version of it the steward's gas station chain which is wow yeah like if i were just like really thirsty that wouldn't do it for me i think that would just be confusing yeah or like i don't know if i like gave it to my dog which maybe that's like not it probably no i think it's a good idea i think yeah okay okay uh quote we're calling it now the espresso tonic is the drink of the summer okay you wrote that i did not no well um i wrote the headline the story is written. Right. That's what I meant. You wrote that headline. Correct. You wrote that. I mean, know that you can't write every story.

51:57This is great. Yeah. No, that was written by our social media editor, Merlin Miller, who is incredibly talented. Shout out to Merlin Miller. I love that. And we'll link to it in the show notes. What's going on with the espresso tonic? The espresso tonic is great. I mean, it's, you know, it's got all the elements of a like an iced Americano or not, you know, whatever, an iced caffeinated beverage. But then it's got a little bit of sweetness and some bubbles from tonic. It's great. It looks cool. It's frothy. It's really easy to make. Yeah. I encountered it in Korea at a place called Matt's Cafe in Gangnam, and it's in the cookbook in Korea World.

52:29And they actually had more of an orange syrup involved in it. Actually, Ashley - Yeah, people flavor them. People flavor it. So they had an orange peel and an orange syrup. Actually, Ashley Rodriguez from Boss Barista, she helped develop that recipe. Oh, amazing. I can't wait to see it. I just think that espresso tonic is such a great afternoon drink. It's amazing. And it's also another, you know, it's in the vein of you want something that is going to be like a little bit fancier and it's really easy to whip up. Like you can have a bunch of these at brunch, whatever. It's a great drink. And people have really, really responded to that story.

53:03It's done incredibly well. Yeah. OK, so is there a drink that you think deserves more shine? Ooh, is there a drink that deserves more shine? I mean, like a cocktail? Could be anything. I know this is a broad question. I'm sorry. It is a broad question. No, that's okay. It's like Sunny D needs, no, that's not the one. Well, I mean, my favorite cocktail is a sidecar. Yeah. Like I, that was my, like at my wedding, my husband and I each did a signature cocktail. His was a mojito, which was very popular with everyone. And then mine was a sidecar and my friends ordered it to be nice to me. It wasn't selling that well.

53:38No, people were like, oh, Oset, why? Someone made like a grandma from Princess Diaries joke, which is fine. Yeah, I love the sidecar. I think I really love a drink in a coupe glass. I find that we should all use more coupe glasses. I don't know that they're underrated. I feel like people use them a lot, but I like using coupes at home. Yeah. Like I have a set of coupes that hold up in the dishwasher. I use them constantly. It's the made-in coupe set. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Made-in glassware is really good. That's great. Dishwasher safe coupe. Yeah, exactly. They're perfect. I have like a set of, I think I have a set of two and I just like two boxes.

54:14So they're 12 total and I use them all the time. That's dope. I don't drink any more, but for 75 out of a coupe, that's a good choice. I like that a lot. Very fancy. Yeah. Try, try. Big fan. What about in the NA world? Is there a drink that you feel like deserves a little more credit? Interesting. I mean, I think that there are some really interesting non-alcoholic sparkling wines out there. We did a big tasting around the holidays because obviously, you know, when it comes time for New Year's or whatever you celebrate in December and January, people want to buy bubbles for a special occasion.

54:46And I wanted to do a non-alcoholic tasting because, you know, whatever, maybe you're not drinking now or ever. And there are some really good N.A. bubbles that I think, you know, aren't sparkling cider or grape juice or whatever. There's this brand French Bloom. I really enjoy some of their N.A. sparklers. So is it de-alkalized or is it de-alkalized? Yeah. And we actually ran a story explaining what de-alkalization looks like because the way a wine can be made without booze, there's a couple of different avenues you can take and that actually matters a lot. Yeah. And then any beer world too, I think of this de-alkalized category that is just so fascinating because yeah, like sometimes it really nails it and sometimes it really doesn't and wine is even harder.

55:34For sure. I mean, because making wine with booze is confusing to people. So then when you're making it without booze, they're like, OK, so like the fermentation does what? You're doing what with the yeast? Well, structure is part of the alcohol, right? Like structure. Well, let's get into your background in wine because you are certified. So what is that all about? I feel certification is a cool thing to have, but you maybe don't necessarily need to have it. No, you definitely don't need to have it. I think the biggest reason I did it was a confidence thing for myself. you know as someone who is on a regular basis writing or now more often editing stories about wine I think having that education makes me better at my job and it makes me kind of trust my own judgment more so it's it wasn't like anyone at food and wine was like you need to go do the certification to have this job you know yeah it was something I did for me it makes perfect sense yeah and it was good so I did level two and level three of the wine and spirits education trust known as the W set.

56:32So yeah, level two, I think they call intermediate and then three is advanced. So what's the test like for level three? So for level three, there's a blind tasting, there's like an essay portion, a blind tasting portion, and then a multiple choice exam and then some like fill in the blank stuff. You kill it, you crush it, you ace it? I passed it with, I think, merit. Oh, there you go. I like it. You're very, you know, not bragging or anything. No, no, no. I think, yeah, it's like a two hour production. You sit, you do it. Cool. Yeah, it's fun. It must have been fun, you know, to learn and also just have to study for it.

57:06Yeah, I studied during the pandemic. I was already drinking a lot. So then I was drinking a lot educationally. I mean, having access to our wine room was super helpful. I will say, like, I think the challenge of studying for something like that is access to samples. And we're really fortunate that producers send us wine a lot. And I got to do my blind sort of tasting prep with what we have. Is there a next level that you're going to go to? There's a level four, which is the diploma. I don't think, at least right now, I don't have plans to do it, mainly because I think a lot of that exam is focused a bit more towards the business of wine and, you know, whether it's working in hospitality or working in the business.

57:43And I think editorially, level three is kind of where you want to be. It's given me what I want. But I wouldn't say like never. I mean, there's a lot of future. I mean, OK, I ask a lot of writers this and I get a variety of answers. would you consider opening your own restaurant wine bar something in that in that field i i don't think i would open my own restaurant or bar i would i have like toyed with the idea i don't know way down the line of doing something like some kind of bottle shop education space of sort like i really enjoy talking to people about wine and helping them figure out what they like about it and helping them feel like, okay, asking questions about it.

58:25So I think working in that capacity with the producers and people who are just figuring out what they're into would be fun. I think covering chefs and restaurants makes me really daunted by the prospect of getting into that. Same, same. Great way to burn like lots of money. Yeah, I'm like, I don't know. But I think like opening like a, there are some bottle shops that were really formative for me when I was figuring out what I liked. And so I'd love to create a space like that someday. That's cool. So you are a first generation Turkish American food and Bev writer. I mean, that is that is really the background is unique in food writing.

58:56I feel like there. And and and I would like to know, like, in terms of looking at Turkey's vast food culture, what is something that maybe our listeners don't quite understand about Turkey? Yeah, you know, I think that there are a lot of wonderful writers who cover Turkish food and, you know, the culinary scene in cities like Istanbul or Izmir because they're on the ground there. And I am always really excited to read their work. I think that something that gets lost in translation sometimes is just how big Turkey is. Like, you know, it's not it's not all one kind of it's literally I mean, Istanbul is split across two continents.

59:35There's a lot of different influences. There's a border that is much more Middle Eastern and then there's more European side. And so I think the sheer diversity of the country sometimes gets lost and you just kind of like aren't sure what bucket to put it in with like Mediterranean versus Middle Eastern. Yeah, I'm challenged. I've never been there. I've always wanted to go. Yeah. I've been challenged to write about it and feel like I'm really accurately portraying it. I mean, are there dishes that maybe we don't quite know as like a general audience? You know, something that always sort of intrigues me is everyone knows what manta or a lot of people are familiar with manta.

1:00:13I'm always intrigued by how manta in the States is always it's presented to me oftentimes as like more of a pierogi, like a large dumpling. They're supposed to be like the size of your fingernail. That's what I was really tiny. Right. But I've been to multiple places. I mean, I don't eat out at Turkish restaurants very often, but if I feel like I've seen restaurants that are like trying to take some Turkish influences. And they're just making manta in like a large dumpling, like wonton sense. And I'm like, this is confusing. This is. So, yeah. I'm not going to really turn down manta. No, I'll eat it.

1:00:46But I'm just like, that's not really how I grew up eating it. Yeah. Is there like a spice profile that you could that describes Turkish food? Um, I mean, it's not there's not a lot of heat, I would say. There's a lot of I mean, the spices that I associate with a lot of Turkish food are like sumac is there a lot. There's a lot of cumin. I would say a lot of like Urfa chili pepper is definitely. But that's like that's a flavorful heat as opposed to just like it's very sweet. I mean, Urfa is very sweet. Yeah. Or right. Or kind of just like having more of a flavor profile instead of just here's something that's going to blow your taste buds off.

1:01:24Yeah. So, yeah. OK, I have to ask you, I've asked a lot of editors this. Are there banned words at Food and Wine? so we do have like a list of terms that we just we try not to use as much because they're just over i mean it's things like delicious we try not to do that i wouldn't call it like banned but it's like let's not do that i personally really don't like the word quaffable i don't know why it comes up in beverage writing a lot and like no shade to my like wonderful writers who do use the word quaffable but i will edit it out yeah it's definitely getting the red line here as well Colate, same with unctious, same with other things.

1:01:57Correct. Quaffable, tipple, sipper. Those are words. Another thing, like, it's easy to describe almost every beverage as refreshing. Yeah. I mean, you could be like, that glass of gin neat is refreshing. Right. Like, there are very few things that aren't refreshing. So at the end of the day, like, I'll sometimes read a story that a writer has done a tasting of, say, 30 wines. And if we're describing 14 of them as refreshing, we are not describing them. Exactly. There's a real math there. Right. Yeah. So I'm like, OK, we can say refreshing like twice. So pick your pick your refreshings. OK, so if you're asked to do the drinks for a backyard barbecue or an event and you're like the friend who's going to quote unquote do drinks, I said, what are we doing this summer?

1:02:44What are we doing this summer? I mean, I love easy bubbles, like bubbles that not necessarily like let's ball out on champagne, but like, you know, like a Lambrusco, a chilled red that has some bubbles to it. I'm not necessarily saying like everyone go buy Petnat because I know we already discussed that, but you could do that. I also think there are some fun bottled spritzes on the market. There's this new one called Almare. It's A-L-M-A-R-E. And it's like basically a pre-made spritz in a bottle. And it's from like it's the importer that works with them also works with some really great wineries.

1:03:21So it's like, you know, there's nothing there. Street cred. Exactly. And it tastes fantastic. And so I think those kinds of like pre-made spritz options like that work really well for backyard. I love that. What about batching a cocktail for the backyard? I love batching a cocktail. Dude, I do too. I don't drink and I love batching cocktails. It's like really fun to like, you know, figure out the math and figure out the flavors. No, I batched. The last time I had a party, I batched French 75s and I just did the mixture and then had people top with bubbles as they wanted. And then I had some NA bubbles for people who wanted like a lower ABV French 75 and that worked out.

1:03:55Yeah, I'm all about modifying ABV. Yeah, it's nice to have a low alcohol bubble to go on top of those. So good. We did. Yeah, we did them with Yuzu. Oh, nice. I love that. Oh, a twisty Yuzu or just like Yuzu. Like I got mailed a bunch of yuzu with some, like a brand sent me some yuzu and I put it in a front section. It's so good. Yeah. Good choice. Where are you traveling this summer? What's on your plan? So I am Classic in June, 40th anniversary of the Food & Wine Classic. Oh, yeah, the Food & Wine Classic. I've been there before. Yes, yes. And then I'm going to New Orleans in July for Tales of the Cocktail.

1:04:31I haven't been in some time, but our team wants to kind of go check out what's going on. So I'm going to do that in July. And then I'm going to Columbia in August. Oh, right on. Yeah. To spend some time in Cartania for a wedding, which I'm really excited about. That's a great lineup. I know. It's like hot, hot and hotter. I know. I know. And I, yeah. So I've purchased a lot of linen, but yeah, I'm excited about it. What a great plant for summer. I feel New Orleans in July, I've done that a number of times. It tells the cocktail. It's really humbling. for you and your deodorant. It's like people who wear natural deodorant and go to tails, I like have a lot of questions for you.

1:05:08Oh my gosh. I ended up at Coop's a lot. I love that place. Coop's or Felix. Oh, love. Those are my guys. I love New Orleans. But yeah, so I'm really excited about Columbia. I've never been, so this will be my first time. And then I'm hoping to spend a good bit of time in the Berkshires this summer as well. Oh, wonderful. Okay, so let's talk about cookbooks. You know, at Food & Wine, you cover cookbooks so well and you always have great seasonal lists and you do features. what is exciting you and maybe the office right now in terms of cookbooks yeah i actually um i'm really really excited about some of the vegetable centric books that are coming out i really enjoy susan spungan's style of cooking and she has um a veggie centric book i mean a lot of her cooking highlights vegetables but this that one um i think it's called veg out og legend there yeah i love I love Susan.

1:05:53Yeah, I've met Susan once, and what a character. Yes, for sure. Yeah, of course in nature. Exactly. So much respect for Susan. So excited about that. Hedy McKinnon also has Tenderheart coming out. Beautiful book. Yes, I love Hedy's storytelling. She's also just like an awesome person. But I gift her books. I gift family to people pretty often. Tenderheart is like massive in the best way possible. Yes. It's a really significant book for her. It feels like she's put a lot of her heart and soul into it. And I think that her style of cooking, which again is very veg centric, is really beautiful. So I'm excited about those two in particular.

1:06:29Yeah, I love those choices. This is Taste the Name of the Show. And we ask often our guests, is there something, is there a topic? Is there a food? Is there something that you consider yourself a tastemaker in? Well, OK, so it's not a food. I really enjoy shopping for things online that are secondhand and getting good. Like I enjoy personal shopping for people, if that makes sense. It's absolutely, you're like a leader in that field. I mean, I feel like I have helped friends find like really good outfits on The RealReal or like a weird vintage ashtray on Cherish. Like those are sites that I set alerts for and spend a lot of time on.

1:07:09Are you Depop? I don't use Depop because you can't return things on Depop. And I am morally opposed to buying things full price and final sale. The RealReal, for example, charges you for returns, but I'll pay the return fee. Like, that's fine. But, yeah, I really, really enjoy haggling over things, and I like – I love a bargain. I love it. Do you go into the eBay universe? I have dipped my toes in the eBay universe, yeah. But, again, returns are tricky there. Yeah, it's the same. You can't really do it. Yeah, but I feel like my favorite text to get from a friend is, like, I have X event in two weeks, and I don't want to spend more than$75.

1:07:47Find me a gown. like that. And you're game to do this. Oh, I'm so game. If you don't know me and you want to send me that message, you can do that. Yeah. Your social profile will be in the notes and you're definitely. Great. Yeah. Let me know. I will find you sequins. I will find you shoes. We can get a bag. It'll be great. I love this. Have you ever thought about doing like an editorial project tied to this? I don't know what that would look like. Like it's so out of the realm of what we do at Food and Wine. I know. It would have to be its own thing. I mean, there are some newsletters that do things like this that I really, really love following.

1:08:19Like Harling Ross has one called Gumshoe, where she does basically this and she does a phenomenal job with it. But yeah, I feel like the world doesn't need my sub stack. Respect. We're editorial people at heart. We are always working on it. Just to have like another project is maybe not. No, it's cool. I'm not going to put another email in people's inbox. Bless you. We all deserve better. Is there a city in America that we are maybe not thinking about in terms of food? I ask because Food & Wine is so great at traveling America and covering the nooks and crannies. I mean, I love New England so much.

1:08:53And I think that there is a lot of really great food to be found in the Berkshires. You know, I don't know that that's like off the beaten path per se, but I feel like New Yorkers go to Hudson and the Catskills a lot, but towns like North Adams or Lenox or Lee, like there are some really fantastic food. And also like the access to good produce and small makers there is really incredible. So I am really, really a fan. No, shouts to Berkshires. It's great that you're calling it out. I feel like many of our listeners might not be able to put it like on the map, but point to it on the map. It's basically like go to the Catskills, but Massachusetts.

1:09:34Yeah. And so it's like, it's much more chill. I think, I think it's generally. Wait, you're coming for the Catskills? I mean, I feel like the Catskills has gotten fancy. Oh my gosh. It's so interesting. Let's go there. I feel like no, like if you go to Calicoon. I know this is hitting you personally. I don't live in the Catskills, thankfully. I have like Wi-Fi, thankfully. No, I mean, if you go to like Calicoon or like, I feel like some of these Catskills towns, they get like a little bit of ink and they're not that fancy. They're really humble. But there's one resort. Well, yeah, there's like all those resorts.

1:10:03Sure. Right. And you know what I'm talking about. I do. And it's like I see them and they're like, you know,$900 a night and they're super bougie. And then they have like, you know, just this incredible Instagram presence. And you're like, how did this happen? The Berkshire doesn't really have that. Respect. So we're unpacking an important topic. Yes, there's like multiple resorts of that nature in the Catskills. Yeah. Which are beautiful. I'll go. Yeah. Invite me. Invite me and Matt. I'll go. We'll go play some golf. I love golfing. up there and i just think the catskills it's not it's like a very it's like wild and wilderness and i love it up there i love driving around and roscoe i mean these are great towns and like they're they're less discovered than you'd think that's my like my cat's tourism board moment but like i forget i think it was last year my inbox was full of pitches about like kingston new york yeah i was like what's happening that's up the street for me right and i was right which like I guess is maybe good for property.

1:11:00I don't know. It's just like Kingston had a moment. No, you can definitely talk about Kingston. It's a great town. There's been, yeah, I feel. There's a lot of investment in Kingston. Like it felt like very concentrated and then it was on social media. Yeah, no. And I'm glad we're talking about this out loud because it's important that some of these towns, they have these like blasts of presence, social media, TikTok, et cetera. But still, they're like humble towns. I mean, it's an issue for Portland, Maine. I think of Portland as, you know, I love Portland and have spent a good bit of time there.

1:11:31And I feel like there are a lot of folks who live there who are kind of like we are now being priced out of living in Portland because the influx of people from Boston or New York who are like here because there are amazing restaurants in Portland. But that drives up the cost of living and makes it unsustainable. So I don't know. It feels like this got like sadder. It got a little bit sad and real. I just think for me, you know, visit these towns and open your eyes and there's a lot going on that maybe isn't on Instagram or, you know, being written about in publications. I feel like there's definitely some great things written about in publications.

1:12:04But definitely for Catskills or any part of the Hudson Valley, there's another side to it. Right. There's a real impact. Like, yeah, after you post, it's kind of like, OK, so then what happens? Exactly. And how does that translate five years later? I love this topic. We're going to continue it. But Oset, we asked all guests if you could write a cookbook or food culture book without the burden of time, meaning you have no deadline or the burden of budget, meaning you have all the money in the world to execute this book. What would that be? Wow. um i really like the idea of a book that has like okay here's one bottle here are 15 different things you can make with it and not just like in a here are 15 different cocktails you can make with it but like i really enjoy using vermouth to like caramelize shallots and put it in grilled cheese.

1:12:55So it's like kind of a multi-purpose sort of approach that way. And I feel like there's like maybe a sustainability angle to that. But I think that would just require a lot of tinkering to see, OK, like, can you add this thing to, say, an olive oil cake? What happens when you do that? What happens when you make a spritz? Will it freeze? That's so exciting. I think something like that would be really fun. I would definitely need some friends with like more culinary chops to help me with that because I don't have a recipe developing background. You got friends. You got friends. I have some friends, though.

1:13:25You can do it. But I think that would be really, really fun because I really enjoy seeing what I can do with alcohol that's not just drinking it. I like cooking and baking with alcohol a lot. And we all have the bottles around. Yeah. Oh, yeah. There are ingredients that we need to use. No, a Campari soak olive oil cake, the Melissa Clark recipe. That's like my wedding cake was modeled after that. It's a really, really, really great point. We bake, we cook, we braise with alcohol all the time. So good. Was that Barbara Winter? Thank you for joining. Thanks so much for having me.