254: Snaxshot

0:28This episode is brought to you by Resi and American Express. But we are really living in Andy Warhol's biggest dream, which is taking mundane stuff and making it a status signaler. And how brands that are old have realized, hey, we can just take something and make it look pretty that can make us relevant again. This is Taste. I'm your host, Matt Rothbard.

0:59Snackshot, the curatorial and slightly mercurial grocery newsletter and community, has grown into an industry force, read by CPG executives and members of food media on a near-religious level. Andrea Hernandez is the muscle behind this influential publication, and we were lucky to have her back in the studio to talk about what is interesting to her in the grocery store and what she calls the Millennial Bodega. I hope you enjoy it.

1:33Andrea Hernandez, this is Taste. Hi. Welcome back. I'm glad to be back. It's, it's, you were here in April and you were rolling through town. I was like, can we book some time with you? And you were very gracious to accept. So thank you so much. You run Snackshot. I'll link to the previous episode in the show notes. It was an all timer. So here you are. Yeah. So Snackshot is a platform where we discuss like upcoming food and beverage trends turned cult. So it's for snack boys of all kinds. So people who are into worshiping sexy pantry items and sultry snack alike. Well said. Super concise. Let's just get into it.

2:14The Grimmest Birthday shake slash celebration rollout kind of owned the early summer. What's your take on that? So, I mean, I'm someone that has been advocating for McDonald's to bring back their McDonaldland characters. Like since I even before Snackshot, I've been like constantly tweeting, like, bring us like bring back what we really want, cowards. Bring that birdie. Yeah. So I feel like I actually wrote about this a couple of issues ago because I really do think that nostalgia obviously is a hell of a drug. and I think that they are one of the earliest to really invest in like IP, right? Developing these characters, like the Hamburglar, et cetera.

3:00And I think it was kind of lost in like probably the past decade. You kind of saw that sort of fizzle out, like them really highlighting their characters in the way that they used to. And so I love that they had this whole like storyline of like, oh yeah, Grimace's birthday. And a lot of people, like, it's so funny, like, talking about the horror TikTok trend of Grimace Milkshake. It's so funny because people don't really know that Grimace originally was a villain character. I mean, he kind of looks a little shady. You, like, look at the guy. But, yeah, that's good to remember. But people don't know that.

3:34It's like I'm so invested, like, in these, like, retro, like, commercials that look – they're so scary. If you ever look for 70s McDonald's commercials, they're so creepy. They really are. And like the puppetry is like really shoddy. And like the costuming is like the purple is a little faded. It looks like basically Grimace is hungover. It looks like. Oh, for sure. And I feel like it's one of the things like I really love that they were able to kind of reintroduce this character that's been it's over 50 years old now. And to be able to have them be so successful and people kind of relating to.

4:11It's remarkable. I was able to try the shake on Pennsylvania about two weeks ago. I kind of like did you try it? No, I don't see myself ever trying. No, I respect Andrea. Just to be clear, like you write about the industry. You never frame yourself as like a taste tester or reviewer. I just want to remind guests. You more cover the industry. I tried it. I liked it. It reminded me it tasted like birthday cake. Oh, my God. That sounds so good. It was not berry in any way. So that was cool. It was like purple, but birthday cake. So if anybody from McDonald's is listening, I would love for them to really bring back Mayor McCheese.

4:43Yeah. Like I find him. I actually wrote about this when I was writing about Grimace. Like, what are the most fuckable, like, vintage McDonald characters? And obviously top of my list is Mayor McCheese. So please bring him back. 100%. Have you heard about the Uncle Grimacy lore? No, actually. Shalea, fill us in. Okay, so I went way down a rabbit hole into this Grimace situation. First, I'm going to say I like your birthday cake, but I'm going to raise you. it's kind of like after you finish a bowl of Trixx, like the milk at the bottom of it. Like that's what it reminds me of. I also was a big fan of it.

5:20But there's like a lot of lore around Grimace because like the older Grimace character had like a family. So like there was like his mom, like Grimabeth, who would like take him to McDonald's. And then also for Shamrock Shake, and I really hope they bring it back next year, there was this character called Uncle O 'Grimacy. And it was like his uncle who came from Ireland only once a year. and would like, he was the one to like give out the shamrock shakes like in like the 70s and 80s. And I'm really hoping he comes back. Oh my God. I love that. I love that he has an entire family. That's amazing.

5:51That's great. Thanks, Shalia. I feel like this is a never ending McDonald's. We got to do a whole McDonald's episode. For real. We also ended last episode and I want to come back to this point because it was really, really good. Great quote. Quote, Andrea, Walmart is a new pantry kith. I fully agree and I want to follow up. My question is, does Walmart just need better PR? Because still to this day, most people like bag on Walmart. I think it depends on who you're talking to, right? I feel like Target for the longest time had that reputation of being more of like embracing emerging brands and having kind of like the cool factor of it.

6:32But with this new generation, which I like to say gen alpha, YouTube is what I like to call them because obviously like they're not growing up watching television. They're growing up watching their favorite creators on YouTube channel. So like they've really like been able to take like these like movement of this creator brand boom. So like, for example, Emma Chamberlain's RTD is exclusively at Walmart. I think that's where they started. I'm not sure if they've expanded. Really wise to sign up Emma Chamberlain. Just really good for them. I mean, yeah, well, just like, again, like being the first place to pick up on these brands that are so cool amongst like the kids.

7:13I don't know if you saw like the news about this week about Prime and how like this senator is like saying like, oh, the new social status for kids is not toys or shoes. It's like beverages. And I'm like, oh, my God, has he been reading Snack Shots? Because I've literally been talking about Snack as a signaler for the longest time. 100%. And that was in response to banning one of, he was trying to, or. Yeah, yeah. Prime energy drinks, which is, which is kind of unfair because, you know, Prime's energy drink has the same caffeine as like things like Celsius. And I think what he's trying to say is that they are being marketed to kids, which is not really true because in its website, it's always said like, hey, this is not for anybody under 18.

7:54Yeah, it's pretty explicit with the legality in those. I think it was Chuck Schumer actually was doing that, a senator from New York City. Yeah. New York State. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So anyways, but like that's one of the things like when I wrote about Walmart being this like new kind of like the pantry kith for this younger generation is because that's where you can find, you know, things for like Prime, Feastables, Chocolate and all these different brands that, again, that resonate a lot with this younger generation. I think people forget that Gen Z is no longer like the kid generation anymore because most of them are, you know, of age or in their mid-teens.

8:28So they're not really kids anymore. So I think one of the things I feel like Walmart has kind of been able to beat out Target being that place for this new generation. People forget about that. So when you activate within a Walmart, are you seeing that? Are they doing like capsule collections within like certain spots of the store? I guess how are they as a retailer? I mean, signing up products is one thing, but you have to activate. You have to merchandise. Yeah. No, and you'll have. So one of my favorite things is to go to these brands and their tagged photos. So like you can actually see like UGC user generated content.

9:07And I love to kind of just see how are people engaging with these like cardboard cutouts and you'll have like kids taking pictures with like Mr. Beast's face. Within the Walmart. Within the Walmart. Yeah. And so I do think I know for the I don't know if they still carry it, but early on with this TikToker's energy drink, I forget what it's called. I think it's called Ani. And it's Josh Richards, like this big TikToker. I don't know how popular he still is, but he would do like meet and greets at Walmart. And you would have like these like lines of just like teenagers. It's kind of like thinking of like a sort of band vibe thing.

9:49And it's, you know, outside of a Walmart. It's really, really brilliant to like have for Walmart to maybe like sneakily leverage those like meetups in some way. Because that's something that you would think of like of like a cool factor of like an Erewhon. Yeah, we'll get to Erewhon. We'll get to Grocery Corps. Okay. Other news this week, Mars, that privately owned company, very mysterious in some ways. They're on an acquisition spree. They acquired TruFu. They've acquired Kind in the past. And they recently acquired Kevin's Natural Foods, which is a massive brand. You've seen in the grocery store, it's basically pre-cooked proteins and sauce.

10:30Sometimes they're doing a little bit of like pasta. I think I had a pie in my hungry root box. I had a pasta that was pretty interesting. What does this tell you? So I've been tracking this. Then I like I wrote about like when they brought they acquired Kind. I wrote about like, oh, Mars is about to go try to get themselves a health halo is what I call it. So obviously, you know, Mars from being like the candy company. And I guess that they're what they're trying to do is kind of build a sort of wellness health portfolio. And they it's so funny because I joke that honestly, kind bars are literally candy based on like the sugar content that they have.

11:13So, again, it's like this like perception of health, but it's not really a healthy snack. Those protein bars, you know, have an insane amount of sugar. Yeah. So, again, it's like a health halo. what they're trying to do is kind of build out and I guess like diversify themselves because they see probably as an opportunity of like, OK, so like we own chocolate and we own candy. So like how do we incorporate or build out a portfolio of this like growing category, which is like these like wellness. Yeah. The health halo is a great point. Have you ever frozen a kind bar and done that? No, again, I would never buy that.

11:50I remember looking at the Clif bars and Kind bars, and I think I even tweeted about this early on. I was like, can we just agree these things are not, they literally can't be at that point. Yeah, there's no kindness there, but they are pretty delicious. Liza's a big fan of the Frozen version. I've not tried it. You've been kind of clowning, but kind of celebrating the millennial bodega. I love that. Your meme game is like really hitting like 11, Andrea. What do you mean by millennial bodega? What is the space that you write about? Yeah, it's so funny because people get it, right? And they feel identified.

12:27And I think it's just so funny because it is true. But that meme that I recently posted was inspired by this bodega that I came, like an actual bodega that I came across in the Lower East Side that wasn't like a pop-up gross or anything. It was like you're from the outside. It looks like, you know, your parents bodega. And then I'm inside and you see literally almost all the brands you can find that something like a pop-up grosser. And it was like Seamoss, like Olipop, like Ruby Hibiscus and like all these different like trendy wellness snacks and so like looking at that i was like wow so like these millennials are really shaping like what goes into these like traditional bodegas where you would you know usually find your coke or your pepsi but the fact that now you can find like olipop and things like mush which is like this oh like oh yeah the oats yeah and all the yogurts and and And so downstairs, our building at 56 and Broadway is a millennial bodega.

13:30Yeah. Through and through. And I love that you call it out because it's true. These buyers in places like New York and L.A. are it's not a specialty like pop up grocer or Foxtrot. It's like literally the bodega that everyone goes to. And again, bodega is like party store is like small grocery. And like it's clear that these brands are resonating with not just Internet first people, but everyone. Everyone, because like I was deep in Bushwick visiting the people from Smallhold. I don't know if you know. Oh, they were on the show about a month ago. Yeah. Yeah. So I was visiting Andrew and it was like something on like a Flushing Ave, this like bodega that had like Reese's.

14:07Yeah. Like like promoting that it had like Reese's and like a couple other drinks. And I was just like, whoa, this is something. Again, it's like your bodega that had like graffiti as like it's like logo. Like it's it looks like a traditional bodega, but like inside it's you can tell the millennial this generation's influence in what goes into the fridge, like the fridge and the shelves, etc. So, you know, it is joking, but at the same time, it's the reality we live in in 2023. I know. Do you get a sense? Do you think some of these like VC backed companies are like the brands are out there and then the sales force, they're like cutting deals with these bodega owners and actually doing some loss leading kind of pricing structures and just like giving them great deals to shelve them or maybe paying the shelving prices.

14:54It's a very rudimentary reading of retail, but I wonder what your take is. Yeah, I tweeted about this. I was like, who's buying$12 Magic Spoon at Target? Yeah. Right. And so the fact that they're all in these like retailers and like, oh, yeah, we're in 7000 retail spots. Like how much is that is actually like a genuine growth because of the need and demand for the product versus something that's being subsidized by VC dollars. Yep. Yep. I wonder there's going to be a deep dive. I'm sure Snackshot will do that deep dive. But I mean, I think ultimately after 18 months of it, you'll see Magic Spooner not on the shelf.

15:27So, yeah, I feel like especially this year and probably like rolling on to next year, you're going to start to see a lot of either consolidation or just brands like shuttering because the wells have dried up, especially in something like CPG, where I think the smoke and mirrors are starting to clear up and people are starting to get out of that lucid state of thinking that tech and CPG are the same. People realizing like, hey, sometimes a company like, you know, for example, Yasso yogurt, like frozen yogurt treats just got bought out by Unilever. And the company has been building itself for 10 years.

16:08$200 million, I think, in sales. Yeah, like a huge number of sales. But that's happened over the – I think it was like 10 or 12 years that they've been. And so like people are forgetting that, especially in this industry. We we most of these like brands like Olipop and Poppy and Liquid Death, they're not even they're barely five years old. Yeah. And so, you know, Liquid Death, I think they just did another raise. They got a one billion valuation and the news broke out yesterday. They're going to go try an IPO. Yeah. They're getting the financing behind the bankers. Yeah. But for me, what's interesting is like people forget that in this industry, like a lot of these success stories don't happen overnight.

16:50And so there's still time that's needed to actually build something, in my opinion, that can be like, oh, you know, getting purchased by Unilever or whatever. Honestly, I'm rooting for Liquid Dust to not be acquired. From the beginning, I was like, I hope they never get acquired. I hope they become so expensive that they can't be acquired. And lo and behold, I was right. Here they are trying to IPO at a billion valuation. And I think OLEPOP is a great example. You've written about it extensively. Dan Fromer over at New Consumer has written about them. and they've been doing it for a while. I mean, it feels like they're a buzzy brand, right?

17:23But they've been like building it brick by brick. Five years. Yeah. So I guess five is not 15, but it's not 18 months. Yeah, exactly. So I think that they've been slowly, you know, and they were the ones who kind of pioneered this whole fiber soda category, which is, again, our version of Metamusal. So, you know, people can laugh at it and can like joke, But to be fair, it's pretty genius what they've done because where Metamucil could have done it, they did it and they made a cooler version of something that's really needed, which is the fact that we need fiber in our diet is the most logical thing.

18:03And as we age, we need it more. It's definitely not a shitty business. I'll leave it there. Let's talk about N.A. Beer in particular. I've been very much on the this is the summer of NA beer I'm feeling a little bit redeemed with that assertion it feels like that summer of La Croix from like 4 or 5 years ago NA beer is maybe in that category Andrea you're kind of like squinting like maybe you don't agree I'd like to get your take on NA no I mean I wrote about this last year when I wrote about like the new alt brewskis I love it and I talked about Visitor because Visitor launched last year they're like found at places like Fox Shot I think Pop-Up Grocer maybe they actually taste really good and some people might mistake it for like an actual beer was so funny I had it at a festival I was manning this like bodega curated by Snackshot and all these firemen were coming up grabbing the NA beer really thinking that it was beer and then they were like they're like faces of like disappointment when I told them like no it doesn't have any alcohol but it fooled them I think, you know, Athletic Bruin, the fact that you can find it internationally now, to me, it's just like mind blowing the way that they've been able to successfully grow.

19:22And obviously, as they've built themselves into this like massive company for the category, like they've basically opened it up for brands in like internationally to, you know, Australia has heaps. Canada has a bunch partake just at a whole rebrand of themselves one of my favorite ones based in Canada in Vancouver is Nani oh yeah sure they're great Nani beer is great yeah really good there's Owls as well the smaller brands there's so many and I think again this is gonna be same thing that happened with heart seltzer same thing that happens when people are just kind of chasing a trend if you haven't had like if you haven't had developed sort of like a brand or a universe that's really organically pulling people together, there's so many, like there is a limit of how many choices we can have, right?

20:13And how many brands I'm going to try and how many am I going to get converted to? Yeah. And I think the reality is that the winners here are very clear, right? Like athletic brewing, someone like Partake that have been putting in the work because athletic brewing didn't come from one day to another. Like they've been, I think, since 2017. Absolutely. And just absolutely to create new math. basically they didn't they weren't doing like de-alkalized beer they were like creating a new product which is very challenging for me the big the big pop this summer has been the um langonitas uh hoppy seltzer yeah i'm seeing like 12 packs of like like variety packs over at like the the shop rights and it's like that and i was in chicago i was having a drink at like rainbow this like amazing dive bar in wicker park and they're like selling it there oh i saw that's oh my god i was in a uh dive bar in portland and i couldn't believe that they had athletic brewing there like that's just how much they've permeated um but also i think uh speaking of na in general i think guia is something that i really am rooting for to be successful just because i find it very genius their positioning of this has no alcohol yet i'm drinking it and the way that people serve it in glasses or whatever it's like like envisioning like oh i'm still having like my Aperol Spritz in like the Mediterranean just and how they've curated their imagery and like their like their can and all the aesthetics like play into that story and also like you see that for me it's a success of NA where they realize like alcohol's magic of literally selling you a depressant as a happy elixir comes from marketing and making things sexy and so I think that the appeal of this industry is being able to make some like a sober drink that whereas it used to be two extremes right it used to be like the plain seltzer or you had like the virgin daiquiri that was like all sugary whatever and it's very infantilizing so you had the overly infantilizing sugary drink or the plain boring seltzer and the genius of this like booming i guess category is that they've been able to say like okay how do we create something that's like taste profile that emulates something like the burn of alcohol so bitters and soda having a big moment because of that so i mean i could talk about this no it's a great we could talk about it forever and i think guia is a great example of starting with the the standalone na product that was like a campari na but then going to rtd and really being able to seed that with influencers create that lifestyle around na a lot of people tried to do it but guia really oh but but their success comes from like the accessibility because to be fair I don't think anybody's buying$40 of NA stuff bottles and I think can makes it one accessible and it also is like a good entry point in if I haven't tried your stuff I'm happy to buy a$4 can of something but I'm not going to go buy you know a$40 drink bottle of a drink any drink that I've never tried so I think that that's why you've seen every NA bottle now do cans.

23:17Like Acid League just launched their proxy scan. So smart. There's many examples out there. We can move on. I have to ask you, threads. I mean, really, you're tapped into all social. You're almost a social first platform. What do you think about threads? Yeah, I mean, I think it's honestly like I started using it a lot in the beginning And I kind of but I just kind of like stopped just because I've been very busy. I like it. I feel like it's good and interesting to see Twitter dynamics on Instagram. And I think that it's so smart for them to kind of say, OK, well, there's a whole everybody knew there was this kind of like the Instagram versus the person who tweets.

24:03And to see like these people kind of embrace that like Twitter-esque culture has been very interesting for me. but if you're a brand and you're not making the best of threads as in like if you're going and posting the same bs you're posting in your other accounts you're doing it wrong um and i really hope that it becomes less of a linkedin meets like like think boy you know armchair philosopher and i hope that it keeps its kind of like weird factor yeah blue sky is where you can go for that shit yeah go somewhere else because i and it was so funny because i made this meme where it's like Like where I'm trying to make the case, like every social platform, what's going to reign supreme is just memes.

24:43And so hopefully, you know, my thesis is correct. I think the slideshow factor is really big on threads, the way you're connecting text with like a five slide. I think it's a super light app. It's in my initial impressions as well. I want it to be integrated with Instagram. Hopefully they'll do that sometime soon. Fully agree on that one. Okay. The snackies. Is that a bit? Is that a bit or are you actually doing it? No, this is, we booked a space. Okay, I was like, are you the bit? No, that's a thing. So August 17th, you've not announced really anything about it, except it's August 17th, how can I be there first?

25:16What are the Snackies? And this is, Andrea, so needed to have your kind of take on an awards program. Yeah, no, I am super, super excited. So the Snackies are our version of sort of like the Dundee. So if you're familiar with The Office, it's kind of like a take on that. So there's going to be like irreverent awards being given out. and we're going to have like a step and repeat. We're going to have like founders give each other like these awards themselves. But of course, like it's nothing serious. Like one of the awards that like I have is like Doppelganger Founder Award. I already have the winners for it.

25:54I can't reveal it yet. So good. But yeah, so like the idea is to just bring the community together to just celebrate itself as opposed to like, oh, someone won best beverage. Like just kind of like mocking the whole idea of the best of when, again, I guess for me, this industry is like very subjective. So in my opinion, most of them are winners just, you know, for trying to exist in this highly competitive space. So, OK, can you say where it's going to be? How do we get tickets? Do we show up? Yeah, so, like, obviously, like, if you follow Snackshot, you'll be able to sign up whenever the RSVP comes out.

26:37But it's going to be hosted at Maxwell Social, which is an incredible, beautiful space, like, around Tribeca area. That's where we're making it black tie mandatory just because, like, the space lends itself for, like, a very, you know, beautiful affair. So just keep an eye out on our socials and the RSVP people are going to be able to just RSVP. and we're just going to bring some good food and snacks and beverages. I'll link to that in the show notes if it's available when we release this interview. But I love it. I love it. On the last interview, I really liked what you said about brands Trojan horsing with aesthetics, meaning basically getting people to buy the same old shit that looks a little cooler.

27:22You had mentioned Fanta as an example. We didn't really talk about it in detail. This feels like it's like a cynical take on like where we are with established brands, but it's the truth. I feel like it's really funny because, first of all, I'm such a quotable person. I love it. No, it was a great talk. We had a lot of readers reach out and say, that was great. Here you are four months later. Yeah. So I would say it's very – I think I've mentioned this in the last podcast, but we are really living in Andy Warhol's like biggest dream, which is taking mundane stuff and making it a status signaler and how brands that are like old have realized, hey, we can just take something and make it look pretty that, you know, can sort of make us relevant again in this like for this new generation.

28:15So Gushers, Fruit by the Foot, I think it's called. They just did this whole rebrand. I personally did not like it, but I understand why they're doing it. Because they're trying to, they realize like, oh, all these like new candy and new emerging brands are really focusing on aesthetics. and so like there was someone that said like uh this is also kind of like blanding because a lot of the designs that were made in like past decades had a lot more like technical ability to it and a lot of these ones are just being designed on all these like tech highly tech like designer programs whatever and i found that very interesting but at the same time you know retailers themselves have told brands like brands will tell me like hey i've you know i've been told by retailers like i have to like upgrade my packaging because they want things to kind of look this in like same format so whole foods will reach out to a big cbg company and be like yo like step it up i don't know if they'll do it with the big ones because snack daddy has the big pocket so whatever they say goes i guess but but for the small ones i've had brands tell me like give give me that commentary of like yeah I have to figure out how to like upgrade my packaging because that's something that retailers also have yeah you know noted but I do think like a lot of brands are also kind of overly relying on being a pretty packaged oh sure and a lot of the feedback will be like yeah I tried it because it was it was nice and that's one of the like the reasons why I meme this industry so much because it is true like some people will literally just buy for the packaging itself and then they'll try it they don't like it they never buy it again and so i think that's the big uh sort of i don't know like a paradox of yeah your stuff can look pretty but if it doesn't taste good it's really your shit's gotta be dope it's gotta hit it's gotta hit hard and you gotta like that craveability for any product yeah and i like to joke like uh i did this where it's like uh reject uh like reject modernity embrace tradition and it's like talking about like like the whole design on like Cherry Coke and Fruitopia, like they were so weird and like look so like bad.

30:33But now like compared to like the oversimplified like brands you see today, like you kind of get nostalgic for that like weird chaos of like. Completely. I mean, like the blanding or the graying of marketing for CPG has been well written about and you've done a lot of that. And we like, we definitely need a little bit more spice. we just had Chitra Agrawal on and she runs Brooklyn Deli and she tells this story about Trader Joe's ripping off literally ripping off her pickle and I just wanted to ask you because we have so much love for Trader Joe's and TJ's is definitely part of our culture and this isn't a shade pick on Trader Joe's but man that was quite a tough story is Trader Joe's less fuzzy and warm than we realize?

31:23So, I mean, I'm not like surprised that's happening. I think what's interesting with Trader Joe's is that I don't really think that they carry those brands within their retail. So then it becomes like more like WTF versus like someone like Kroger that you go in and you can find like a prebiotic, a private label prebiotic soda next to the Olipop. That is even shadier. In my opinion, I'm like, I've been trying to tell brands like not only you have to worry about like the competitiveness and the space, but now you also have to worry about like how do you hedge against the private labelization of your brand?