258: Nicole A. Taylor

27:38So enslaved folks did not find out as soon as, you know, Abraham Lincoln dropped his pen. They got the word at various times. But Texas was literally one of the last. And so it feels like it's like a true Freedom Day in that it was one of the final days. It was one of the final days. And Texas, you know, people for so long made Juneteenth super special. You know, it is a holiday that is rooted in Texas tradition. And I try to always, you know, say that when I talk about it. And even in the book, I make sure I root the holiday in Texas culture. But we know that, you know, during the great migrations in the 1920s and 1950s, that black Texans moved all over the U.S.

28:28Black people in the South moved to different parts of the country for better opportunities and to escape in your face Jim Crow. Yeah. I mean, High on the Hog, a documentary on Netflix. I've got to watch that just to get a little sense of the migration and some of that history. Let's talk about food. How does June 19th, Juneteenth, how is food celebrated on this holiday and how did you structure your cookbook to represent this? Well, you know, what I like to tell people, Matt, is that this is the way that I celebrate Juneteenth. Like, yes, it is the first cookbook by a major publisher dedicated to the Juneteenth holiday.

29:08But what I know from my research are their families who have their own cookbooks or piles of recipes that they make every year for Juneteenth. So my goal was to really just kind of talk about the holiday and say what it is and to give permission to black creatives, particularly black restaurateurs or cookbook authors. Just give them permission to to write a cookbook the way they want to. You know, over the past 10, 15 years, we have so many black cookbooks that have entered the market that give the foundation of black food in America. And we don't have to always do that. So this Juneteenth cookbook is Afrofuturistic.

29:56Respect that. It's more of a zeitgeist. It's more of a moment. It's more of an interpretation versus the historical significance. I respect the distinction you've made. And in publishing, it's extremely creative to do it that way. I do. I want to be specific about two things. I do make sure that there are a lot of historical facts we've throughout the book. I spent a lot of time making sure that I left breadcrumbs around history and said people's names out loud. But I also wanted to kind of my book is laid out where I say the essentials of Juneteenth. So you have a chapter on the red drink. You have a chapter on barbecue, a chapter on potato salad and other salads and desserts.

30:40Respect that potato salad chapter. Yeah. Nice. Yeah. And each chapter opens up with the essay. So I was very, very intentional about the structure of the book and making sure that it broke the mold a bit. Yeah. Speaking of historical figures, is there a person in black foodways in American history who maybe isn't recognized as much as they should be? I know there's many, but just we'll have you on the pod. Let's go over maybe a couple individuals, one individual. Wow. That's a hard question. I'll link to Therese Nelson. Therese Nelson wrote several articles for TASEN and part of the scheme and the note was to elevate, you know, folks in history.

31:22I'd love to get your take. Yeah, Cerise Nelson is a dear friend. I love her. She's awesome. There are so many people that have toiled in kitchens, worked at sorority houses, cafeterias, who probably wanted to write a cookbook, you know, 50, 60 years ago. But it was impossible. But I think about how Chef Joe Randall was recently awarded the Cookbook Hall of Fame. Amazing. I was there. It was amazing to see that. Yeah. At the James Beard Awards. He, Uncle Joe, he's a very, very nice person and supportive person. When my first book came out, he sent his daughter who lived in Atlanta to one of my book events and FaceTimed me.

32:09And that's the kind of person he is. So it was very meaningful to see him being recognized because he is an inspiration to a lot of black chefs who are, you know, toying away at the Ritz Carlton or the W Hotel. So it's good that he that he's gotten his shine. There are so many Chef Joe Randall's out there, though, you know, that deserve to be on the main stage. I think about Dorsal Miles. She got her shine. But, yeah, I can't I can't zero in. It's so hard. No, it's just naming a couple of folks here on the show is is cool. And I got it. Teresa and I, we were talking about a couple of stories and got to get her back on taste.

32:52It's those are great pieces. The hot sauce one is the bomb. It really was the bomb. That was a great piece. Okay, on This Is Taste, we asked guests about their discerning taste. So to close this interview, here's a little rapid-fire Fast and Furious taste check for you, Nicole. All right, you ready? I'm ready. What's the best way to dress a salad? Ooh. Ooh, definitely an oil vinaigrette, bottom of the bowl with your hands mix. Bottom of the bowl hands. Yeah. Hard agree. Your favorite cookbook, one cookbook. Ooh, Spoon Bread and Strawberry Wine by the Darden Sisters. The most underrated New York City restaurant.

33:36Ooh, that's a hard one. What? I know. Rating is hard. I'm giving you, it's almost like a slept on gem, one that we don't write about because maybe it's six years old, which is a weird age. I mean, I still feel like super cool when I go into Odeon. Love that you mentioned that. You mentioned in your research that you're going to Odeon. Yeah. It's cool. Yeah. Odeon's kind of back though. I gotta say. It's kind of back, but when I feel there, I feel like I'm getting, I'm a real New Yorker when I'm there. Yeah. Yeah. I don't feel like a tourist, even though there probably are tours there. It's like you think about like Jim Belushi back in the 70s doing like drugs in the bathroom.

34:15Exactly. Such a great history. Overrated ingredient. Man, I'm sick of y 'all with the mayonnaise. Okay. Wait, really? Yeah. Mayonnaise? Mayonnaise. Wow. That's tough for me. Mayonnaise and aioli. Do we have to put that on everything? It's true. It does not belong in everything. And there are some bad mayonnaise. I'm not the biggest Kewpie fan. I think Kewpie is maybe overrated the Japanese mayonnaise, but I mean, Hellman's? No. Okay. I don't want it on my egg and cheese. People want to put it on everything. Oh, yeah. No, no, no, no. Respect that. All right. Underrated ingredient. Ooh. That's a hard one.

34:55Underrated ingredient. Cilantro. Yeah. Some people hate it. I feel like it just changes the whole dish. Think about India. Think about Mexico. Think about, I mean, it could be many places. Love that. The best cheese. Manchango, 100%. Sweet. Favorite fast food? Ha. French fries. All day long. Is there a brand? Are your brand of choice? I'll take something that's thick, crinkly, super golden for sure. Nice. Favorite gas station snack for a road trip? Nuts. Roasted nuts. Late night diner order? Chicken and waffles. Oh, yeah. Definitely. To wrap this up, your favorite sandwich in the entire world...

35:39toasted bun,

35:43white cheddar cheese, fig jam, Whoa! and fancy country ham. Ham on top of jam, fig. Oh, love that. Yeah, that's my favorite sandwich. That's a great sandwich. I would love that. I'm so hungry for that sandwich right now. Nicole Taylor, thank you for joining This Is Taste. Thanks for having me.

36:11Jose Rolat, welcome to the Taste Podcast. Thank you. Like Chicago is definitely, and you write about this in American Tacos? Yes. I've talked to you a couple times for Taste about Chicago as a city that has an incredible Mexican-American population in food. Yeah, there have been Mexicans there longer than there have been Mexicans in a lot of places. And that has to do with the cattle industry. Vaqueros taught the cowboys, but they rode with them too. And they rode all the way up to Kansas City, where there's been a Mexican population there since before. Or it was Kansas City and then they went further north.

37:06The modern Mexican immigrant population is predominantly from Michoacan. So you get Piria, Carnitas, all these wonderful Central Mexican things. But it's expanding. Yeah, it's expanding. You think of L.A. and also, of course, Texas, where you're based and you're the taco editor at Texas Monthly. You think of those as like the motherland of tacos, but honestly, Chicago. And then you're in New York right now researching a revised version of American tacos and researching a possible new project. We'll get into that. What's New York like these days for tacos? What do you think? I'm excited. Yeah. So, as you know, I used to live here, and I lived in Sunset Park, which was Mexicanizing at the time, and I would visit this west of this cart on the side of a bodega.

38:20It's not there anymore. Where this old lady would sell lamb barbacoa for$2. And I would give her the money, take the taco, and keep walking. You can't find that in Dallas or Texas. That doesn't exist. There. Yeah. So New York has a great scene and it's had one that's been overlooked and unfairly maligned. Well, fairly maligned is an understatement. I think everyone who knows food will agree with you and kind of push back. But you hear these bullshit articles or these statements. You'll be at a party and they'll be like, there's no good Mexican food in New York, which still happens today. And you're like, give me a break.

39:17It's much maligned. But there's also – so now, you know, you've got your Sunset Park and you've got Corona in Queens. But then you've got like Greenpoint has like Taco Ramirez, Taqueria Ramirez. Three Taquerias or taco restaurants, maybe two carts and one Taqueria made it onto Pete Wells' top 100 restaurants. It's pretty amazing.

39:40More taco joints than pizza joints on that list. And rightly so. Rightly so. And this is always your stance. Well, let's just say the New York slice has fallen in quality. Wow. I'm not a fan of it. There was a place in Queens that I used to go to. It was awesome. I don't know if it's there anymore, but the tacos have only gotten better here. And I'm excited to just eat my way through the city over four days. Yeah. So we're hitting you at the beginning of your journey. You just came from the airport into our studio. I love it. And we'll catch up with you afterwards, either in a print article or have you back on the podcast to hear about it.

40:50But I just want to get a sense of what's on your spreadsheet. You famously, famously have spreadsheets. And I was in Chicago with you and you had a two-pager, two pages of notes. But what is on your spreadsheet for New York right now? A lot of places in Queens.

41:09Birielandia, which opened up within the last few years. I've been in Texas for almost 15 years. So that's new to me. I'm excited. You had mentioned Ramirez. I'm going to go there. I'm going to go to Sobremasa. I'm going to go to For All Things Good. Good. I'm going to go to Morelos, which has a place in Queens, which is the original, a place in the village, and a few trucks in Brooklyn. Oh, cool. And geez, so many. So they're going to be fancy places. there will be trucks uh there will be places that aren't on my spreadsheet that i'm gonna see and i'm gonna make a decision right there and then i love that we were you were talking off mike about you were walking over here from from rock center and you saw two taco trucks you saw the taco truck in front of our office on broadway in 56 which had no line maybe not the best sign And then you also observed a truck that was a Puerto Rican Mexican truck that had a line.

42:45So just, Jose, like your general thought about Midtown Manhattan taco trucks. What's going on here? It's unusual because you've got your hot dog places. Yeah. You've got your meat on a stick.

43:05Chicken and rice places. Mr. Softee suddenly has a fleet of trucks everywhere now. That's strange too. But I don't expect taco trucks to be available where they film the Today Show. Or where they film Late Night or whatever. It just seems out of place. Now, what that does tell me is that people love tacos.

43:44Tacos will only get more popular. There's no end in sight. And that ultimately, the taco always wins. I love that line. I love that, Jose. It's so true. And I want to go to Texas where the bulk of your journalism occurs. American Tacos obviously covers the country in your revised in that book. But I want to focus on your work as the taco editor. Can you pick a favorite city for tacos in Texas?

44:19I asked the bad question and your eyes were like, oh, man, but I just had to do it. I just had to. So the way I would look at it is you have cities that are diverse with their options, and then you have cities that specialize in one or two things. so for example dallas where i live is extremely diverse uh san antonio not diverse it's very much tex max but it's changing and it's changing for the better and And I would have to say San Antonio. Yeah. Because that's the home of the puffy taco. That's the home of the breakfast taco. Although— Austin likes to claim it, but it's still in valor, obviously.

45:28Yeah. Austin is really good at packaging and marketing. San Antonio is really good at just living. Yeah. It's just part of their DNA. Yeah. And maybe that's what does them in is that they take it for granted. Maybe all Texans do because it's just part of our life. When you're late to work, you get breakfast tacos for the office. Yep. That's just how it is. I love that line. I love that. And so we haven't talked about Houston and, like, the Alabama Ice House, the tacos outside of there. I've been there on two separate visits. Houston's a great food city. Can I tell you that I don't like that place?

46:23I know. And I know that place is trash. I mean, because— No? Because, honestly, dude, it's, like, the one that's on the lists and shit. Like, I feel like, you know, maybe it's a little overhyped. I love, like, hanging out there. It was a cool little spot. So it's a drunk taco place. Yeah. And there's always room for drunk tacos. I will never argue that drunk tacos are simply bad. There's room for everything. And if you are drunk, it's a great place to hang out. But from the culinary side, as the editor, you're like, nah. I got to be honest with you, man. Man, last time I was there, it tasted like plastic.

47:10Yeah, bro. I mean, we were talking off mic about San Loco in New York, and to me, that's the epitome of drunk tacos in New York City. Yeah. What you were telling me about that small chain is so enticing. As a journalist, that's now on my itinerary. for my time here guaco loco man that thing is that thing is a taco it really is a taco i'm just gonna leave it at that but yeah there's there's a real institution here um with like drunk tacos and um let me just flip it back to houston though tell me a little bit about what's happening in the city food wise maybe not just for tacos you cover all sorts of you're a journalist you write about everything and not just food but what's happening in that city houston is so diverse that everything gets made into a taco.

48:13Now, it's dominated by, I would say, two groups. There's Neemfa's. Neemfa's, oh my gosh, the fajitas. I love that place. That's been open since 1973. It doesn't have to be good, but it's great. It's amazing. I love going there. And the other group would be the H-Town restaurant group, which owns Hugo's, Xochi, Caracol, all of these higher-end Mexican places that really put traditional Mexican food on the Houston map. And then what happened was South Asians got a hold of the tortilla and they made Indomex or what I like to call Desimex. you've got a burgeoning Afghan cuisine coming up because of all of the refugees of course you have Cajun tacos I've had those and what else I mean it's just one after another you're just like holy crap where does it end and the hope is it never does yeah No, definitely.

50:02And it's just this food city. I've had the best pho in my life in that city. Oh, wow. It's just amazing. It's just an amazing city. And that includes Vietnam. I feel like I had the best beef pho there. Let's talk about the Korean taco. I'm really curious because you've spent time researching this and writing about it, and I have as well. You're the expert. Well, no, you're the expert. I'm a mere observer, and I know Roy Choi, and he certainly made a move early with those. But you've seen your fair share. Do you like Korean tacos? What makes a good Korean taco? I love them. I think that what Roy Choi did was genius.

50:45He took a private regional cuisine and brought it to the public, leveraging social media, which no one had ever done, right? So that was in 2008. By 2010, there were restaurants across the country. So 13 years later, a lot of those places have closed, but there are new places and places continue to experiment. they work generally with a flour tortilla, which is a neutral vessel, right? Wow. I'm just going to stop you there. A neutral vessel is the flour tortilla. The ones they use, yes. Okay. Because if you're on the border, you're going to get like five different types of flour tortillas. Right, right, right.

51:44Depending on where you're from. The one that's used in LA is the neutral. Okay, sorry to interrupt. No, not at all. No. It's a good question. It's a good point.

51:55And now, because the restaurant supply groups like Cisco and stuff, you're going to get one type of flour tortilla, right, that everyone's going to use because it's cheap and they can buy them in bulk. that is both a blessing and a curse because it could suck. Yeah. But it could be great. But what you'll definitely get is consistency, which can sink or make any business really. But think about Korean meats and think about Mexican meats. What you have are two great grilling cultures. And so it's not much of a leap. No. Well, marinated meats that are then grilled. It's almost like a two-part, right?

53:12Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you can barbecue them if you want. But then you have cabbage, which you also have in Mexico. And the components are almost the same. It's the flavor profiles that change. So what makes this so good and so appealing? It is simultaneously familiar and novel to the first timer, to the connoisseur. It's another thing to eat, another food to think about. Yep. and what are the cultural connections, like all American taco variations, it was born of two populations living side by side. Yep. And LA Koreatown is a great example. Like literally in that city, there's obviously filled with Korean restaurants, but there is a very quickly growing Mexican population in Koreatown, especially north of 6th Street.

54:37That to me feels like maybe a little bit of a dividing line. Yeah, so it just keeps growing. It keeps meshing. Yeah, yeah. And that's when innovation happens. Absolutely. Yeah, on the note, I feel like, you know, we talk about bulgogi as the meat for Korean tacos, but I think Jeyuk Bokum is better. That's the pork. That's a sweeter pork, marinated pork. And I think comparing it to pastor, I feel like those are the two connections there. Yeah. And when you think of Mexican tacos, for better or for worse, you're going to think of beef and pork. and those are the things that you think about when you think about Korean barbecue.

55:31Yep. So it's perfect. I prefer pork. Yeah. Beef can go wrong in so many ways. Pork is a little bit more forgiving. Yeah, but pork is the way to go. You are right. Yeah, I love it. Let's talk about LA a little bit. And in your book, you write extensively about Los Angeles. And there's a lot of ink spilled about Los Angeles tacos. And I love LA Taco, what they're doing there, that publication, indie publication. if we're visiting LA how do we think about LA in terms of Taco City is there a geographical dividing line I have potentially one in my thesis but I'd like to get your take yeah I think a lot of people like to say that West Los Angeles Santa Monica for example it is a taco desert.

56:42But LA Tacos showing us that is not true. Definitely. So, well, like New York, you have to look for it. You have to work for it. You're going to find them wherever they want to be. You just have to be there too. Poetic. I love it. And is there a geography? I think there used to be. With East L.A., for example, Compton's really curious to me because it's predominantly Mexican-American now. So you have this mixture of traditional tacos with African-American tacos where they take soul food, comfort food, and put them in a tortilla. And you got mac and cheese and jerk chicken in a tortilla. sold from a driveway.

57:58Yeah. It's amazing. I've gone on crawls with Garrett Snyder and Matt Kang and Dylan Ho, who's written for Taste quite a bit about the Mexican scene in L.A. and the South Bay, like Compton, and South Central Los Angeles in general. The shift to Mexican-American population is dramatic. And on a Friday night, you just drive down Crenshaw It's like lots of carts and lots of tables and tents and taqueros. The taqueros are out. It's really exciting. I love it down there. So it's really interesting to me that Southern California, particularly Los Angeles, has given us wonderful regional tacos, like Jewish tacos, which came out of Los Angeles.

58:54in the 40s, when Jewish populations were living next to Mexican populations. But the shift occurred about 20-some-odd years ago. and while I love to go to Los Angeles to eat tacos, there's so many other places. I love that. I love that statement. Tell me more. Tell me more. Where are we going? Memphis, man. Yo. Gotta go Memphis. So they lost a huge white population and it was filled in by Latin Americans who were working agriculture there. And it's something like 60 percent Mexican. And the tacos there are insane. Such an endorsement. There is a place, it's newer, where the husband is from Memphis and the wife is from Oaxaca.

1:00:17They do surmex. So let's say albondigas, chipotle stewed, meatballs with collard greens, buttermilk fried chicken with queso. all these wonderful very southern very Mexican things that work because once again you have this cultural bridge what are the two greatest corn cultures on the planet that would be that would be Mexican culture and southern culture so they came together yeah and they gave us a great food this hybridized cuisine that is only found in America in many ways you can't find that replicated anywhere well I would say it's the basis of all cuisine yes generally but specifically when you're talking about things that are comforting or foods that have become foundational to American cuisine.

1:01:58Yes. So, for example, when using eggs, hot dogs, sliced hot dogs, whipped scrambled eggs. It was a poverty food. And now they are beloved. It is a great breakfast taco. Love that. Let's talk about the revised version of American tacos. What are you looking to update when you're doing this research? So I'm going to remove a few places, add new places, update narratives for other places. I'm going to add chapters. I have to add birria, unfortunately. Why do you say unfortunately? Wow, because I feel like that's definitely like this meme food, and we love it, but why do you say unfortunately? Because it is a meme food, and everyone wants to do it because it sells, but that doesn't mean it's good.

1:03:00So birria being historically a dipped taco, dipped in consomme? that's what we know it as now but originally it was a soup right see that's right i'm so confused by it that trend because when i i would go to a place near the staples center that was known for el perion i think it's called near known for birria and it was a soup and then all of a sudden it was a taco i'm like i don't know what's going on yeah and it was probably filled with goat right Oh, of course. Always goat. Yeah. Cabrito. Yeah. Well, Americans love beef, as do northern Mexicans. Yeah. It's cattle country. And so the natural thing was to sub the meat.

1:03:51Sub the meat. Beef took off. And now everyone's doing it. It's beautiful to watch on Instagram all of those little videos, all those reels where people dunk their tacos like you said. You know, it's perfect. It's made for it. But that doesn't mean it's good. So capturing the story of that across the country is important to me. And another chapter is going to be the taco in the COVID and post-COVID era. Because tacos and Mexican food fared pretty well. Again, the taco always wins. It's not that places didn't close. It's that what you have are small, independently owned, family-run restaurants that can adapt quickly, much faster than a large restaurant that requires a lot of money versus a truck.

1:05:12Yeah. I want to close by just asking you about your future book projects because you teased in the elevator when we were chit-chatting in my office. I don't know if you want to go on mic with this, but what can you say? You have a couple ideas that are stewing like a fine consomme that you dip a taco into. What are you thinking for your next couple projects, broadly speaking? So if you think about my current book, American Tacos, it's a map of the country's mescanization. And it's broken up by taco styles. But how do you find great examples of those styles? What do you look for? What do they have in common?

1:06:18How do you read a taco? And then there's been a lot of talk about old school American Mexican food.

1:06:33and the debate is growing it's growing furiously people are yelling at each other and um i think it's worth looking into uh i will be that vague yeah no you've been properly vague but also you're just the carrot is out i love this it's so exciting thank you so much jose I really appreciate you joining the Taste Podcast. Thank you, Matt.

1:07:06This is Taste is hosted by Eliza Abarbanel and me, Matt Rodbar. The show is produced by Shalia Harris and Pat Stango and edited by Clayton Gumbert. Theme music by Steve Rydell. Visit Taste online at tastecooking.com and make sure to subscribe to our newsletter for updates on all cool things that are happening.