261: Cherry Bombe & The Bitter Southerner

25:03So they were doing this sort of open casting call. If you haven't read Crying in H Mart, I just think it's such a brilliant book. And it's really heartbreaking. I mean, it's about her and her mother. And I just sobbed through big chunks of that book. In a weird way, I almost don't want Michelle to come on the podcast. I would love to have her speak at Jubilee and I would love to have her on the cover. Sometimes you don't want to peel back all those layers, and you don't want to know about the process. And that was why I didn't become a music journalist. I realized I was so much happier being a fan of music than I was being on the inside of the music industry.

25:39And I almost like that veneer, and I almost respect when an artist doesn't want to reveal too much. They say never meet your heroes, but also never meet those you deeply admire too because obviously art is operates in a box and you just don't want to break that barrier but yeah you know who we haven't been able to get yet and it's really funny the actor who plays julia child on the julia child hbo max show and i know why you said oh because we do the official companion podcast for that and she's never been a guest on it and she does not do a lot of press. And I respect that. Now, um, season two is coming this fall, by the way.

26:21Oh, I can't wait to, I love that that you're doing podcasts with, with TV shows. It's a great model. It's nice. The official companion podcast is a lot of fun. How do you book your covers? Is it, is it mostly you, all you? Is it like a meeting for the year? Cause you've got four a year. You're obviously kind of charting them out. How do you do that? there's no hard and fast process to it it it really it's an emotional thing it's who kind of deserves to be on the cover I think a great example is when we had Paola Velez from Bakers Against Racism sometimes it's just so painfully obvious who should be on the cover you you would just regret not putting someone like that on the cover because of the moment that they're having and because of the impact they're having, not just on the industry, but even beyond that.

27:14It's really hard. It's really, it's hard. The whole process of doing a celebrity cover and really it's so much more difficult than doing food. I mean, you've had Claire Saffetz, Erin French, Dori Greenspan, Sophia Rowe, Ruth Royshaw on your covers. Doing four a year, they come at you quickly. You have to book these shoots. They come so quickly. They come so quickly. And in fact, if you were to look at my text right now, our managing editor was texting me on the subway like, you have to make a decision about the September cover. What's the hint? September's big. Oh, a hint. Yeah. Oh, gosh. It's pregnant with possibility.

27:50Oh, I love it. I think I know who it is, but I'll go off mic with you. And you have the Magnolia Network stars on your cover. I mean, just really brilliant work here, just bringing together pop culture and food and doing it in a cool way. that it's hard to do that, I feel. We definitely try. The covers are so much fun. Every single cover we've done, except our Julia Child one, has been shot by Jennifer Livingston. Oh, cool. Who's an incredibly talented photographer. Yes. So she's given us such a gift in all these covers that she does. She is so energetic. She's just really wonderful to work with.

28:23And she puts all the cover subjects so at ease when she's shooting with them. That cover, the new one with all the Magnolia stars, you won't believe this, But we shot it backstage at Jubilee. Oh, I completely believe that. And that's how it has to get done because we're talking for a year plus your busy schedule. Plus it's hard. And people's it's other people's schedules to, you know, getting them to New York, having their schedule sync with Jen's schedule. So a lot of times it does come down to scheduling, which is really hard. So you just have to keep moving certain people forward to the next issue, to the next issue.

28:56Yeah, I love it. And let's – we'll get into the new issue, which dives into television, but let's go back a bit. I want to hear about your life growing up. Staten Island, when I hear your voice, you have a little bit of that. You have an accent. I sound like a New Yorker. I mean a little bit, yeah. I can sound way more like a New Yorker if you want. But what was food like growing up in Staten Island for you?

29:22You threw me with the accent question. I was just thinking because we record at Rockefeller Center. And sometimes if I don't catch myself, I say Rockefeller Center. So, yeah, it does come out sometimes. I love the way you talk. I mean, I love your podcast. I listen all the time. But, like, you are a New Yorker. It is through and through. You're not hiding from it. I'm very proud to be a New Yorker, Matt. Food growing up, I am the oldest of five kids. I have very young parents. It was a lot of convenience food. It was the 1970s. I do not come from a family of great cooks. My mom definitely tried her best.

29:55It was a lot of TV dinner. It was a lot of hot dogs. It was a lot of pizza on Friday nights, Chinese food. We didn't have a lot of money, so we didn't go out to eat a lot. People didn't go out to eat as much back then, you know, but to take out five kids was a lot. So we would maybe go out for birthdays and things like that or go to the pizza place. We did go to a pizza place called Pal Joey's. Okay. I was wondering, Pal Joey's was your spot for pizza in Santa Island? Pal Joey's was the pizza spot. But growing up, I gravitated toward other places like Danino's. If you're a big pizza fan, I'm sure you know.

30:29Nunzio's, rest in peace, doesn't exist anymore. But yeah, a lot of pizza. My heritage is Irish, German, Scottish. We're not, you know, those places were not known for their food back then. I know the food cultures and all of those countries have changed dramatically. Beautiful food now, places like Ireland and Scotland and, of course, Germany. That's a very broad statement. Yeah. No, it's true. It should be said more. I mean, we still have like fallen to these weird stereotypes about Ireland. I mean, you've done a lot of work with Ireland. I feel like you have a cultural history as well with Ireland and food is the seafood is like as good as anyone.

31:05Well, you also have to remember, you know, my my ancestors fled during the famine. So they weren't coming here with all their food traditions. And any time on Radio Cherry Bomb when I interview somebody and talk about their childhoods and who, you know, who inspired them and who did the cooking and all that, it almost hurts my heart a tiny bit when I hear them talk about cooking with their grandmothers and these big family meals and all these things. And I just didn't grow up with that tradition. When you would make it to Manhattan as a young woman, as a teenager, as going to college, what were you doing in terms of restaurants?

31:46Was there a scene that you were involved with because you're so involved now with New York City? But let's go back to that time when you ended up in Manhattan. Yeah, I was hopping on that ferry and coming to Manhattan as often as I could. And a few places stand out. I don't have a ton of food memories because, again, you know, you're a kid. Like you don't have a lot of money. I had a lot of part-time jobs. And I would buy records, not food. But I loved Veselka. I've been eating at Veselka since the 80s. And I absolutely love that the food tastes exactly the same today as it did back in the 80s.

32:23Places like, oh, my gosh, a lot of places on St. Mark's. You know, you could go and have dinner and some wine and nobody would – Even like Dojo. Nobody would card you back then. Back then, Dojo even, you know. Oh, I don't remember. I wasn't as cool as you meant. Sorry. No, not really cool. The carrot ginger salad is all I can remember about Dojo in St. Mark's. There were no pizza – there were no$1 slices back then. But maybe pizza was just$1 back then. I don't know. I don't know. But yeah, no real high school food memories. Do you have a fancy food memory, an early fancy food? Like, you know, back in the 80s when French restaurants ruled the roost.

33:01My mom would make some French food, which I always found really odd. But I guess that was the lingering influence of Julia Child on the food culture at large. So she would make quiche and she would make beef bourguignon. And I would sit there and pick every tiny little speck of onion out of the beef bourguignon or bouff bourguignon. I love it. Both ways of work. You all want to say it? Fine for me. I mean, I do have a funny memory of going to some restaurant for my birthday, and I was allowed to bring a friend. So my friend Chris came, and he ordered a lobster. And I remember my siblings sitting there with wide eyes like they couldn't believe somebody would have the audacity to order the most expensive thing on the menu.

33:41And I think my family talked about that for years. Oh, it's such a good—Chris, man, good choice. You got to go big or go home. Sometimes when you're the guests. But, Carrie, thanks for sharing the old New York memories. I feel like we need to talk more about old New York. It's just vanishing. Literally, the magazine shop in Avenue A is closing. Do you see that on Instagram? Yeah, the one at 5th and A. Man, I'm doing my best to keep print alive. You really are. Yeah. I told you I hired a CEO. Yeah, we can talk about that. I didn't know if that was in the elevators. Yes. So congrats on that. Thank you.

34:15What is your role then if you're not CEO? You know what? A lot of people have asked me that. But I never once called myself the CEO. So my role is founder, editorial, creative, those things. You're a founder. It's what a founder does. You do everything. But happily, she believes in print as much as I do. Yeah. Well, you look at like the landscape. There's amazing print publications, not just in food, but everywhere. We look at Racket comes to mind. And of course. Oh, I love Racket. Racket's great. Who doesn't love Racket? Racket, Cabana. Yeah. Even Cake Scene. I mean, I just love, I love anybody who does anything in print.

34:50Shout out my co-host Eliza Barbanal, Cakezine. Check it out. Buy it. Buy Cherry Bomb too. You guys got to link up for something. The two of you. Oh, we would love to. Yeah. They're going to be on, if they, you know what? I forget like when we record things versus when things air. I'm sure that happens to you as well. Yeah. They're going to be on the Future Food Is You. Great. Which is our podcast with Abina and Amsamwa. Amazing. So let's talk about your new issue. It's devoted to TV. You asked contributors for their favorite food TV star show scene. Let me ask you first, are we living in the golden era of food TV right now, do you believe?

35:25I think it's a golden age for women in television because they're being presented with these TV opportunities that they never had before. And you look at shows like Padma Lakshmi's Taste the Nation or Take Out with Lisa Ling, you know, shows like that where they really get to hit the ground, explore a city or theme or concept. and they get to do what Anthony Bourdain always did. You know, and I know a lot of women really wanted to do shows like that. The women on our cover, the Magnolia stars. A lot of people don't think of the Magnolia Network and food. They think about it in terms of home design.

35:59Shelter, you know, home design. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. But there are some really beautiful food shows on there. You know, Erin French from The Lost Kitchen has her show, Zoe Bakes. I think Zoe Bakes is just extraordinary. Her name is Zoe Francois. her business is Zoe Bakes. I mean, you just do not see women in their 50s with long gray hair and glasses. And Magnolia is willing to get behind someone like that. And I think it just, it sends such an awesome message to people out there. Yeah. What instinct to put them on the cover and recognize that Magnolia is more than just, you know, the founders.

36:34It goes beyond that. It's also the type of show that they're doing. I mean, I love Top Chef. I love Padma and Gail. and Tom, but I'm not wild about competition shows. I love the sort of kinder, gentler, education-focused approach that Magnolia is doing. And that's really why we put them on the cover, because they were so leaning into a really special kind of show. And that was a pure editorial decision to put them on the cover. There wasn't like a partnership right now. And you know, it's funny, a few people were like, did the Magnolia Network pay you? I said, I wish they paid me to do that. Exactly.

37:10They should have paid you. No, And I ask that question only because it just shows it's this pure instinct from you as the editor of the publication to put something on so timely because I agree with you. It is very gentle. It's what we need right now. The competition stuff is kind of a little washed, I think. But I do have to say I fell in love with Gordon Ramsay's new show. Yeah. And the fact that I'm saying anything related to Gordon Ramsay and being in love shows how much progress I've made and the world has made. But Naisha Arrington is one of his co-hosts on the show. I think it's called Next Level Chef.

37:39Yeah. And I was like, you know what? I love Nyesha so much. Let me just watch the show. And I was blown away by the first. Have you watched it? I have. Yeah. I've watched the first two or three episodes. And that's a multi layers level set is cool. I mean, they spent money on that. And I did such a deep dive into food television for this issue. There's a lot of dreck out there. I know. But they really spent the money on Gordon's show, not just on the set. But the prize is – they're not paying me either, just FYI. But the prize is$250 ,000, which you know is life-changing for a chef. And mentorship.

38:16Gordon and Naisha and the other guy. I apologize. Other guy. I don't know your name. Isn't it Richard Blaze? Oh, maybe. Yeah. The guy from Top Chef from San Diego. Cool haircut. Yeah. I think it's him. But those are great prizes. But there is so much out there beyond the competition show. and we just kind of wanted to shed a light on that. We did a really fun list that I think is like our 47 stars and up-and-comers and icons because I almost feel like people need a TV guide these days. Some shows people don't even know exist and they're really worth watching and then it's worth kind of shouting out some of the classics like Ina Garten and Nigella.

38:57I love that 47 package. It was really smart and you really, the editorial work you're putting in is, It's not just interviews and cool photos. It's like real editorial work. What are we looking forward to this fall? I know you did a fall preview in the issue. What do you think, Carrie? There's so many good cookbooks coming this fall. Yeah. It's cookbooks. It's TV shows. It's, yeah. And a lot of books are being turned into shows, which is exciting. You've got Black Cake, which I'm reading right now, which is going to be a show, I think, on Hulu. And then you've got Lessons in Chemistry, Runaway Bestseller, debut book.

39:32That's being turned into a show on Apple TV Plus with Brie Larson. Yeah, we had her on the podcast author when she released the book. What an explosion that book was. It's cool. And then for cookbooks, I know we're starting to get advances in. Have you gotten anything that is catching your eye right now? So many. I know. There are just so many cookbooks and not enough library space anywhere to hold them all. Very excited about Sola's book. Yeah. 625 pages. Did you know that? I do. I've seen the PDF. It is massive. I mean, not even the average cookbook. Most cookbooks are like, what, 250 pages?

40:09Yeah. Like that is— It's like double the size of most cookbooks. That is a beast. Yeah. Erin French has a cookbook coming out. I can't wait. She's just had such a remarkable career. Again, Erin up at the Lost Kitchen in Freedom, Maine. Those are two I'm really excited about. Elizabeth Poet, who's actually—a lot of the folks on our cover have books coming out. And Elizabeth Poet, who has The Ranch Table, and she has a show on the Magnolia Network. She has her debut book coming out. She is such an original. She is a seventh-generation rancher who's out in California's Central Coast. I think the family ranch is 17 ,000 acres.

40:46And they're really doing beautiful work out there. And she's such an original story, and it's a beautiful, beautiful book. And then Samantha Senavaratna, a friend of ours from Brooklyn, has a baking book coming out. And Samantha is just so obsessed with baked goods and loves teaching. And it also is a beautiful book. Love the great preview. Thank you for keeping it very concise. I love that. Now, I have to ask about Padma. She left Top Chef. What's your bet on the next Padma on Top Chef? Okay. Should we wager? Yeah. If I answer, you have to tell me who you're betting on. I will. I have one. Well, you know what?

41:23I don't know who is in the lead, but I know who I would love to see get the job, and it's Sophia Rowe. Yeah. I just think she would be so perfect. She's got an amazing audience. She and Padma share a lot in terms of empathy and curiosity and having a fan base that's just obsessed with them. I think she would bring a really special new flavor to the show. I love that pick. With no inside information, I feel like Selena Gomez is going to get it. No. Your face. I love it. Selena Gomez. Why do you say Selena Gomez? I feel Selena Gomez is like going to double down in food. I think she obviously has her shows on HBO and her presence.

42:02And I just feel. She is on our list. Yes. If pop culture, if that show is going to maintain its momentum and grow, Selena Gomez doesn't hurt that case. That's the argument for Selena Gomez. I'll tell you why it can't be Selena Gomez. Her schedule will just never allow for that. Fair. It's behind the scenes kind of in the weeds. I don't know that Bravo would want to invest that kind of money. She would be very expensive to get. Yeah. There's a lot of headwinds for the Selena Gomez pick. And I'm not saying that this is what I want, but I just feel my gut instinct is somebody like that. So what are we wagering?

42:38A meal somewhere. Let's go. Are we going to do Korean barbecue? Her name is Han. Sure. Let's do it. Okay. So you've got Sofia. I've got Selena. If it's a push, we'll both go. Perfect. Regardless. I love that. When you're raising money for independent media, and we had a little like back and forth off mic about the scalability of indie media. I think it's not like a 10x scale business. You disagree potentially. You know what? Talk to the CEO about numbers. I mean the reason I got a CEO is – well, first off, she's amazing and I love her vision and her friendship and her partnership. But I have to be honest, working with accountants and bookkeepers and lawyers and taxes and all that really just fries my brain.

43:23Yeah. You need you need to separate. And as a founder, you need to keep the creative vision flowing. And my comment is only that it's more like out of respect for media. And like when you come in with investment from somebody who maybe isn't doing the work, doing the podcast, doing the events, doing the articles, doing the cover shoots and realizing that all that adds up to a lot of work and sometimes not the money that you'd expect and the resources are required for it. It sometimes doesn't really meet the expectations of the folks cutting those checks. That can be$20 ,000. It can be$20 million.

43:57I mean, media has raised a bunch. Yeah, I don't think that's the kind of investor we would want or that we would attract. I mean, I think if you look at our history, it's been slow and steady and very deliberate. And I think that's why we're still here 10 years later. Yeah. Wow. 10 years. My God. Yeah. I love that. But we are doing it a little differently. And maybe you've had some guests who did it this way, but we're doing a community round via WeFunder. Cool. Gage and Tolner did that. I was one of the investors in that. Ghost Town Oats. I don't know if you know Michelle who's got Ghost Town Oats.

44:33But I love the whole idea of doing a community round and that is more appealing to me. Yeah. We've had founders on here who've taken money only from private funds, from VC or private equity. We've had crowdfunded founders, but never media with crowdfunding. So that's smart. We did a Kickstarter 10 years ago. Now we're doing a WeFunder. I remember when you did the Kickstarter. I absolutely got that first issue. I wish I could dig it out. I feel it's worth it. If you need some cash, you can sell it on eBay. It does sell for over$100 now. So like Lucky Peach, like Playboy, like Sports Illustrated, you have some completist collectors.

45:11You're trying to get every issue. Like Playboy. I'm glad you put us in that camp. I'm teasing you. Historical publications in our country and Cherry Bomb is there. Exactly. And you know what? I barely have a complete collection because we did a second Julia Child cover that was just in Whole Foods. And I think we only printed maybe like 250 of them or something. Oh, my gosh. And I only have one of them and I think no one else on the team even has one. Put it in the vault, Carrie. We call it the vault. This is taste. We asked guests about their discerning taste. So to close this interview, here's a little rapid fire Fast and Furious taste check for you.

45:53You ready? No. It's been so painful not to interview you, I have to say. You've been so great at not flipping it to me because I know that feeling because when I do podcasts for other stuff, it sometimes becomes that. And it's really annoying for the listener to like hear the, you know, the grab, the mic grab. Because I do it all. It's bad. Thank you for being a great guest. And let's just go fast. The best AM pastry with coffee? The roast pistachio croissant at Le Bray Bakery in the East Village. The best dessert, hands down? The peri breast at Frenchette by pastry chef Michelle Palazzo. The most underrated piece of kitchen equipment?

46:33The dishwasher. Most overrated ingredient? I couldn't think of an answer, so I went to AI. I typed it into chat GPT and you will laugh when you hear what the answer was. Truffle oil. Yeah, of course. I mean, it's such a great answer from chat. I mean, it makes sense. That's what AI is going to give you. It's going to give you what the media talked about, not the real answer and totally smart. What food most defines New York City as a New York City native? Tie between bagel and pizza. Your favorite cookbook of all time. I love the Silver Palate cookbook. favorite recent cook but we'll say under five years i love mayumu by uh abby belingat the filipino american baker and she is just she is such a superstar and one to watch your favorite podcast that you do not make personally for cherry bomb yours matt oh my god not that one that's really sweet oh i can't say that no uh my favorite podcast that i don't make i adore uh ruth rogers podcast i think it's called ruthie's table four and she is the legendary chef and owner of the River Cafe in London.

47:39Her podcast is so beautiful. Great bookings. Such unexpected bookings. Yeah. The heavies come in there. And everybody's her best friend. It's amazing. Have you interviewed her? No. Listen, I feel like I was in conversations to interview her. I like doing these in person, so I think it was a matter of scheduling. Put her on your list. She is just one of the warmest, most incredible people. Last but not least, your favorite sandwich? Tuna salad, but only if I make it. celery pickles mustard all the above none of the above celery carrots very very very finely diced lots of mayo probably more mayo than people like and a little bit of trader joe's everything bagel spice love that call new york city tuna fish always has more mayo than you want to know about it's just the way we do mayo which is heavy i love mayo i hate to confess that but i love it now you all know how basic i am it's a pro mayo show carrie carrie diamond thank you for joining This is Taste.

48:35Thank you so much, Matt. It's wonderful to see you.

48:47Kyle Tibbs-Jones, This is Taste. Hello, Matt. It's nice to see you. It's just a real thrill to be here. I mean, I'm a huge fan of The Bitter Southerner, and I've been reading you, I mean, for many years. Oh, thank you. And long time coming to be on the show. I want to get into the history of your publication, how you make money, how you survive in this crazy media world. Now, let me ask you about living in the West Village in 07, 08, 09. What was that like? That was a very transitional time. It was. I mean, 2008, we all know what that was like. But I was working in PR and it was, I mean, I grew up watching Mary Tyler Moore.

49:28You know, I wanted, I had been married and then I wasn't married. And then I moved to New York and I had a great apartment and a wonderful job. And it was a little tricky because I had children and they were going back and forth. We had an unconventional setup. But it was just that it was a great three years. Great. And I probably would still be here had it not been for the economy and everything that was going on. Yeah. So then you moved to Athens then? No, I moved to Atlanta. New Juliana, right on. And then three years later, we started The Bitter Southerner. So I'm very glad I moved back because everything worked out and I'm doing the work of my life.

50:04You know, this is my absolute dream situation career-wise now. But I love New York. I can't come enough. And since the pandemic, this is the first time I've been. Oh, no way. Yeah, yeah. I haven't been in four years. Welcome back. Well, I want to ask you about The Bitter Southerner. I mean, first off, the name, you just kind of stop on it and you're like, So what's the bitter part all about? What in the heck? Yeah. Well, 10 years ago, this is our 10th birthday year. 10 years ago, we started an online publication and we had all lived. I was just talking about living in New York. We'd all lived elsewhere.

50:41And when we lived there, people were like, what? Where are you from? What is it like there? You seem very smart. Are you sure you're from the South? I mean, yeah, crazy. Crazy. And so three of my friends and I started The Bitter Southerner. And The Bitter is tongue in cheek. I mean, we talked about being bitter, but from the get go, it was all about telling stories through the lens of making our region better. So a better South is more, you know, what we're about. But The Bitter Southerner is our name, but it's always been tongue in cheek. Yeah. I mean, if you read the pages, it's nothing but tribute.

51:21I mean, you're not really shit talking anybody, but the bitter it's a is it a bitter pill to swallow or the reality of it? I mean, I feel like there's metaphor there. Well, when we started, we our vow to ourselves is that we would stare down the problems from the past of the present. But we'd also celebrate all the things that we love about where we're from. and it was something that we put out into the world. We didn't see anyone doing anything like that. And so people, Southerners, who had moved all over the world were like, wait a minute, what? We hear someone on the Internet talking like us who think bigger and are more progressive.

52:02And wait a minute, what's going on? So it really resonated. And when we started, we just saw sort of a white space there for that kind of storytelling. and um here we are 10 years later amazing 10 years is like a hundred years it is publishing it is i i just have to recognize that you know 10 years ago maybe a bit less there was a moment in like new york city that we we fetishized bourbon we fetishized the pork belly and it was like this southern fetish um and this weird kind of perception of the south through the lens of like mostly white dude chefs. Yep. And you were always publishing against that grain, and you survived it.

52:47I feel like now Southern culture and Southern food culture in particular, which you focus on, is the most diverse coverage around in our country. Well, thank you for saying that. I think it is. When I look back on that period, it made me uncomfortable the entire time. I think in 10 years we've published maybe three or four barbecue stories. One was about politics. Yeah. One was about Southern Mutton. Gabe Buller did a great story about Southern Mutton being like the Jewish barbecue in Kentucky. I mean, it was great. So there's always a twist. I think we've published a lot of oyster stories. Yeah.

53:24But that whole bourbon and barbecue thing, it was a thing. And, you know, our whole goal from the beginning was to publish against the grain. Yeah. So I hope that we've done that. I hope people see us that way. Yeah, I mean, food is definitely, I would say, the majority of your content, but you do profile musicians quite often. Food is actually not even the majority. It's just one very strong bucket of content. We talk a lot about music, social justice, literature. Our sweet spot in the last couple of years has been the environment. So any story around or adjacent to the environmental things has been very, very strong.

54:04Yeah. But we love food. No, food is definitely, and your new collection of food stories, Writing That Stirs the Pot, I haven't been able to review the PDF. And you've got stories about hot chicken, molasses, Ethiopian spaghetti. Christiane Lauterbach got it. Love her. So you're like, really, there's a rich text here. What is like an edit meeting like? Well, primarily, okay, I wonder what it's like at Taste because we have built our company on Slack. We have been working remotely way before the pandemic. So we take submissions through Submittable. We also have people, you know, email us, our friends who know us.

54:45And then we put all of our submissions into a, you know, a document and we all talk about it. And it's interesting, you know, there are definitely stories where you go, oh, my God, that's gold. and then there are other stories that are you know we slowly come around to but um i don't know i think we publish things we really want to read oh yeah i mean and do ideas come from you as well as they do yeah it's this i mean very similar to what we do we're also remote only and we we have a document that we review each week that from outside pitches and we go over it and some work some don't etc right yeah some things come in as a pitch some things come in fully formed to just, you know, almost a final draft.

55:27So it's all different. But when something comes across the bow, like rosin potatoes, we're like, what? Who has, A, even heard of this? And this writing is incredible. Caroline Hatchett wrote that for us. It's going in the book. Or it is in the book. The book lands in the warehouse today, by the way. Oh, my God, muscle. Great. Yeah. Great feeling. So you're going to have, like, eyes on the final product today. Today. I'll be back late tonight, so I'll get to see it tomorrow. but very exciting. And this is a part of your business. You self-publish these books. We do. We're a book publisher. So this year I think we have five to six titles and next year we want to do more.

56:08Oh, we'll get into the economics of what you're doing because I'm really curious. But I want to talk about first-person essay. I feel like it's a real strength of yours, but it's a difficult act to pull off. We oftentimes struggle with it here. We don't want to mine personal essay from folks and just tell their story and not give them another assignment. So how do you think about first-person essay? Well, I think personal essays are very much what we do. It's not everything. No, you write in third often. Yeah, it's part of the mix. And I think it can be, you know, we publish things that are deeply personal, and then sometimes it's just a point of view.

56:50Matt, do you know what I'm trying to say? 100 % agree. Yeah, there's like this spectrum. So I think a first can be definitely like a personal story, a grandma story, a story of your upbringing. But it also can be just a deeply reported piece where the writer slips into first and tells us about this journey and this reporting journey. And you do both. Right. We do both. Yeah. Sometimes it's like Chelsea May wrote this story about sorghum and the making of it. And it's written like a poem. So it is – I mean our writing is all over the map in style. Mm-hmm. And you just know when you're floored by writing.

57:27My partner, Dave Whitling, says something so great. He's like, you can read writing, and you're like, oh, this is good. But really good writing is like all of a sudden riding in a really nice car. You're like, ooh, this is smooth. Seats are feeling nice and smooth. This is amazing. Yeah. And so when we get those stories, we're just like, oh, God, this is great. Yeah. Let's get it out there. Keeping the pace up at like 4 ,000 or 5 ,000 words, too, is difficult. and you often, you know, your stories, you fall into them and you actually read them. Right. At a heavy word count, which is challenging.

57:56Right. What is the editorial process like? Are you editing rounds and rounds? Um, I sometimes, depending on the story, something that's deeply reported, like Shane Mitchell's stories can go through edits because it's months in the making. I love her. She's written several pieces for Taste as well. She's a big fan of yours. We talked about you this weekend. I love her. Yeah, she's great. I can't wait to see her in Chicago. Yeah. She's done a great series for us. It's called the Crop Cycle Series. And every year she takes another crop, a southern crop. She's done rice, grits, okra, tomatoes, onions.

58:32And she has a deep dive into those crops and what we can learn about ourselves, about our history as a region, about ourselves now and the way that we treat people. and what that food means to us in modern culture is really remarkable, and her stories are great. How do you define the South? I know 13 states, many say. There's a map in some books. There's kind of an area of bubbles in other books. I feel like how do you define it? Well, we get questions all the time. Like someone will write in and they'll say, you know, my husband is from Pennsylvania, but he's lived here for 25 years. Is he Southern?

59:11and we're like, yes, he is. Actually, everyone's welcome. Okay, I love that. I was going to say, if I'm in Atlanta for five years, I'm hoping I would get my card. Hundo P, yes. A lot of East Coasters moved to Atlanta. I love that city so much. Yeah, it's a great town. So we, you know, geographically there is a y 'all line, you know. But actually the South is just such a diverse mashup of things, You know, from Miami to Louisiana to Texas, it's not easily defined. I know it's challenging. And, you know, you throw Texas in there and that's like, wow, that's the South too. And it sure is. Can I say this, Matt, that one thing that's been, you know, we talk a lot at The Bitter Southerner about social justice and, you know, what's going on in the world.

1:00:01We fight the good fight. Right. And all of these stories are, you know, told through the lens of making the South better. But around 2016, we elected you-know-who. And then after 2016, think about all the things that have happened. And so now we tag every single story, everything we do with a better South and a better world. And we've really become more of a national magazine with a Southern accent because the topics we're tackling aren't really regional. They may be of the region, but it's really relatable across the country. Well said, Kyle. Now, what's an example then of a piece that you think has a national point of view but has a southern accent?

1:00:45I love the way you say that. But something that recently you've published or maybe something from the collection that you feel is tackling these larger topics that widens your readership a bit. Well, the last Oyster Tonger of Apalachicola. That story is about climate change and about the environment and about the changes that our government has made that doesn't protect these workers who've been harvesting oysters for generation after generation. That is felt around the country. So these stories are relatable to everyone. Yeah, well said. I want to ask you about Ernie Michler. He's the author of White Trash Cooking, which is close to home here because it was originally published by Ten Speed Press, which is part of Crown, where I work.

1:01:36And we interview many authors from Ten Speed Press. But you wrote this piece that's in the collection about Ernie and his life. Tell us a little bit about this character because I feel like Ernie is one of those great writers in food writing history that maybe is forgotten a little bit. Overlooked some. Overlooked some. Well, Michael Adno, one of the finest writers around, wrote that piece. And I have a little personal history with that book. That book came out. White Trash Cooking. Yes. When I was in my 20s. And I remember being offended by it. Me too. I mean, Matt. Like people were giving it at baby showers and like for wedding presents.

1:02:13And, you know, and I was just like, what in the world? Yeah. And I never even picked it up or opened it. I was just so like, no. and then all these years later Michael I know brings this story to us and we and I read and you know we've we're all evolving right this is my own personal story when I read Michael's story I just cried because Ernie was an incredible person who was young and gay and growing up in northwest Florida and just the country and it took him years and years and years for that book to happen and then on the i think the eve of the second edition coming out he died of AIDS yeah the story's beautiful yeah it's it's a really really powerful story um and you know there's so much to be said about ernie about that book about the aesthetic about you know irony about humor the way that it cut to the bone and the photography is compared to christian berry and right i mean incredible their art pieces yeah exactly i think there's a lot and then there There were subsequent follow-ups for the book as well.

1:03:18And it's still in print, I believe, which is remarkable. And it's just really neat that you decided to profile Ernie in that way. Well, it was finally, I think it was really special for him to get his due. And I hope we were a little bit of a part of that. Yeah, profile is a big part of what you do at Better Southerner. And I think it's, I mean, the Christiane Lauderback, let's talk about her. I feel she's a living legend. You know, I've been able to dine with her in the past. And she's started a newsletter in the 90s in Atlanta, Georgia. Knife and fork. Yeah, exactly. She was like one of the original food bloggers before blogs were even invented.

1:03:53She was writing this. It was on paper. Right. Let's talk about her a little bit. I love it. She is a character and wise and never mints his words. And I love that story. Wendell Brock is a favorite. Oh, yeah. Yeah. He's a terrific writer, a terrific friend of the Bitter Southerner. And yeah, that was a special story. We'll link to that story in the show notes as well. Thank you. What are you working on? Can you say, can you hint at anything? I know that you operate a website and you operate a print magazine. You do, you said, five books a year. There's a lot going on. Okay, yes, I'll go through all of our stuff.

1:04:38We share a story online every week. Yeah. We publish a big, beautiful magazine twice a year. The fifth issue, we just published that. Big Frida is our cover story. She's fabulous. Amazing. And you've had Michael Stipe on the cover. Michael Stipe, Kevin Morby. Yeah. Killer Mike. Yep. But one thing in that magazine, I'll just go on a little bit of a tangent, is inside that magazine, we do a letter from home. And our first letter from home was written by Jimmy Carter. The second one was Alice Walker. Ann Patchett just wrote the letter from home. It is such a wonderful piece of real estate where some really special people are writing that piece in our magazine.

1:05:26It's really fun outside of the cover story and all the features within. But anyway, so the magazine twice a year. Next year, you might see it more. We have a podcast. Yeah. Which batches and you released in batches? Yes, that's right. Yeah. I love that about that. Batches. We'll have a food batch that will be a companion batch to the new book, Food Stories, Writing That Stirs the Pot, which brings me to the other part of our business, which is book publishing. We have, again, five or so titles this year. Hopefully next year, we'll have twice as many. and we book publishing magazine. Newsletter.

1:06:07So let me ask about the business. So it sounds like this is a small, very ambitious, scrappy operation run on Slack, remote only. I think right now we're at a time when food media is really distressed and there isn't a lot of money in food media. Are you taking outside advertising or are you making money off of these books and then subscription? Is this like a subscription model? Okay, here's our business model. But I do want to correct something. We do have a little office. We all live in Athens, Georgia. Not we all. My partners and I live in Athens, Georgia. Eric Neesmith is our publisher. Dave Whitling is my co-founder, and he's our editorial director and creative director.

1:06:45Brilliant. We all have a little office in Athens, Georgia. Oh, great. It's actually on the street where I live. Oh, that's great. So you can walk there. Yeah. I mean, it's super Mayberry. What's lunch like in the office? Do you guys have any kind of kitchen situation? Do you have like a refrigerator? We eat a lot of tacos. Oh, damn. Athens has really great tacos. Oh, yeah. I mean, Hugh Atchison's there. Yes. I mean, his restaurant's in Deloam. Five and ten. Delish. Great chef. I'm sad he closed the place in Atlanta. I know. I loved that place. I made a lot of memories at Empire State South. Empire State South.

1:07:14I love it. Me as well. Midtown, a great, great restaurant. Fantastic chef and author of ours. I love him. Right. So a lot of good food in Athens. And it's growing. The food scene is growing. But anyway, so we have an office. we publish books and sell them the way we support ourselves is an online general store where we sell t-shirts our books flags prints and um we've joked that we're like a rock band with a merch table but maybe for um this is the taste um podcast i should say it's like a bake sale yeah right on where we sell things to support ourselves so no advertising it's like cleaner that way it's super clean no partner the muck right the product has always been really beautiful and and pristine like the magazine and so the magazine has ads yeah um okay so that's cool so but um but no digital advertising to clutter up the same taste yeah we're the same way we don't have a digital advertising we have we partner content and we have ad revenue through that but more curated and premium i'd say we have a tiny bit of um sponsored what we call them the partner stories last year We did one with the SELC, the Southern Environmental Law Center, and we did five environmental stories, which became a batch.

1:08:35I like that. So you'll take like some funding from organizations like that. Great. Yeah. Business is doing well then? It is. We've grown, last three years especially. Amazing. So to support you and our listeners will want to pick up, so buy some merch, subscribe to the magazine, buy a book. Buy a book, buy some merch. Cool. We do have a membership draft once a year. Oh, right on. Not unlike NPR. No, definitely. Once a year. So you can join. The focal point of our membership now is our subscription to the magazine. So you can, you know, subscribe to the magazine and become a member. And with that membership, you get free shipping from the general store all year and, you know, special emails behind the scenes.

1:09:19It's kind of like a little bit of a Patreon model, subsect model. Yep, yep. Internal, though. Definitely. I like it. It makes a lot of sense. It's very cool. It's definitely, and you have fans everywhere. Well, we do. Southerners live everywhere. Yeah. A lot of Southerners feel like they need to get, you know, out of town. Yeah. Move to some far-flung place. So we are a touchstone for people who live all over the world. It's fun. I mean, people say, you know, I have these friends, and they do not understand the South. So I will just give them the Bitter Southerner magazine. Please read this. This is more of the South I know.

1:09:54I love that. These are my friends. This is what it's like. Love to hear that. Let's talk about cookbooks. We're talking about books, and we publish many. Are there any cookbooks in your life right now that you really are thinking, like, I like this cookbook, or is it a classic cookbook? I don't want to generally say they have to be new, but what do you think? Well, Matt, I just spent two days with Stephen Satterfield. Oh, right on. The Stephen Satterfield of Atlanta. Yeah. I love both Stephen Satterfields. But this is Stephen Satterfield of Miller Union Atlanta. He has a new cookbook called Vegetable Revelations.

1:10:24And can I tell you about one recipe in there? They're called luck and money domas. So it's like a Greek doma, but instead of the grape leaf, the rice and like field peas, like Hoppin' John is in the middle. It's wrapped with collards or whatever greens you have. And so they're the shape of a Greek doma. But at this party, when we were in North Carolina to launch this book, he sliced them so they felt like sushi rolls. Oh, man. As appetizers. And it's one of the best bites of anything I've ever had. Looks really good. Sounds really cool. Delish. So that's a cookbook I'm really into right now. It's brand new.

1:11:03I love it. And Miller Union is such a great experience. I've been there a couple times over the years in another Atlanta restaurant. What a great restaurant scene. Stephen Satterfield changed the restaurant scene in Atlanta, in my mind. I mean, he was, it was 2010, nine, I can't remember when he opened, but that was the beginning of all that, you know, at the time, farm to table and everyone else followed. And he's just been, like, during the pandemic, he worked for restaurants and chefs to make things better. He is very active in environmental and, you know, strong environmental practices in the kitchen and leads the way with that.

1:11:44He's a he's like a good human. Yeah. He's a great chef and a great person. I love to hear that. Yes. Eat more of those. Love that. I'll tell you, we have today we launched our summer reading roundup, which is one of our most popular stories all year long, where we publish the books that you should read this summer. And there are four food books. Can I mention that? So let me ask you. So this is an article, but it's like a book list for the beach. Yes. For your summer. If you're out in like Duck, North Carolina. If you're in Duck. Which I dig. I love the Outer Banks. Or if you can't go on vacation and you're just in the break room.

1:12:16Oh, definitely. Yeah. Like myself. Yeah. No vacation. Got to work. So the four books on our summer reading roundup that are food related are Vishbats, I Am From Here, Cooking for the Culture by Toya Bodhi, Carden Brown's Celebration of Sea Islands and Kosher Soul Michael Twitty's new book so four good food books really good reading lists there plus a lot of novels and other things novels but those are the food books and Bishbott's book very cool came out earlier this year maybe last year I love his cooking so do you have like a book club element do folks come back and you talk about it we should but we don't we did back in the day Like I think when we first started, we had a book club, but it was just called a book club we didn't really meet.

1:13:05Yeah. But you got swag from the Bitter Southerner Book Club when you would order books. But no. Oh. It was a book of the month club, I think. I don't even remember, Matt. I can't remember everything we've done. The thing about media is like you have like a short-term memory for things that don't like super crush. You know, it's like, okay, like we did a nice job. Like if it didn't, you kind of just like move on. Yeah. If something doesn't change your processes, you know, it doesn't become a part of your, you know, business model, then I just forget about it. Do you wake up excited every morning about what you're doing?

1:13:34I love what I'm doing. I can't believe we've been doing it 10 years. I can't believe I love it even more today than I did 10 years ago. I feel really, really grateful. I love to hear that. Yeah, it's such a tough business doing independent media. Just so much respect. Thank you. Thank you from the bottom of my heart for saying that. But I have to say the people who read our stories and the people who wear our T-shirts, I've worked in media my entire life. I've never seen anything like this kind of love for a brand. And I just feel really, really grateful that what we're doing resonates and that people find it useful and positive.

1:14:16We just want to make the world better. You know, it's not – there's not much more than that to me. Yeah. Like I said, let's put some love out in the world. I love that. Kyle, let me ask you, what's your dream interview for Better Southerner? I'm obsessed right now with Stephen Colbert. I want to talk to him. He's from South Carolina. His mark on his stage is the South Carolina moon and palm because it's home. He's brilliant. He's a good man. He wants the world to be better. He's hilarious. I'm very into laughing right now. I know. He records like two blocks down the street. Just go knock on the door.

1:14:54It's going to happen, obviously. Well, I ask if he wanted to write the letter from home, and his people told me there's a writer's strike. I'm like, okay. But I'm going to keep asking. I think you've got to keep asking. I'm really into funny, Matt. I really wanted to be on the Samantha Irby episode with y 'all. Wasn't it great? So good. I just think calling back to that episode, I'll link to that. It's a great humor is hard to pull off, but when it's sincere and deep, it really does hit. That's right. So hard to do. What about a writer, a dream writer you want to work with? Somebody that you read and maybe have pitched.

1:15:27Probably many, but. I haven't pitched this person yet, but I want to work with David Sedaris. Yeah. I like that one. Hanif Adjurakib.

1:15:43More Caroline Hatchett, who wrote The Raza Potatoes. It's hard to say dream writer because I feel like we're working with our dream writers. I love to hear that. You've got to support your guys. I mean, the Sedaris piece, lots of Southern memories in his world, in his writing. I know. That story about when they were kids and his mom pushed them out in the snow and locked the doors. Yeah. And then all they saw was the curtain closing in the kitchen window. And Amy laid down in the traffic, tried to get run over so they could go back inside. I mean, just hilarious. He covers the dark, dark, dark things in such a unique way.

1:16:16So funny. So funny. Yeah. But also, Matt, what about you? Would you write for us? I would love to. I mean, if I could find some time first. But second, I would love to write about what we have found covering Korean food in the South because it's truly outside Atlanta and Duluth and Houston. Houston, Texas is going to be great. Let's do it. I mean, we got our book coming out next year, so let's do it. I mean it. I'll pitch you. I appreciate it. No, I know you do. I appreciate that. I would love to work on something. Thank you for asking. I love that. But Calatibs-Jones, thank you for joining. Thank you for having me.

1:16:54This is Taste is hosted by Eliza Abarbanel and me, Matt Rodbar. The show is produced by Shalia Harris and Pat Stango and edited by Clayton Gumbert. Theme music by Steve Rydell. Visit Taste online at tastecooking.com. And make sure to subscribe to our newsletter for updates on all cool things that are happening.