267: Amanda Cohen

0:28This episode is brought to you by Resi and American Express. Yeah, I didn't want to be judged on how healthy I was, but actually how good I was. And I thought there were some really brilliant vegetarian chefs out there, but they were so judged on being vegetarian and not on their skills.

0:46This is Taste. I'm your host, Matt Rodbarg.

0:59Dirt Candy is a vegetarian restaurant on New York's Lower East Side that has become famous over the past decade for making delicious items like eggplantarian soup, kimchi donuts, and tomato fruit leather. But it's Chef Amanda Cohen makes one thing very clear. The restaurant's mission is not about vegetarianism or health or politics. It's about making vegetables taste really, really good, period. In this episode, we talk with Amanda about the 15-year run at one of New York's most important restaurants. We discuss her early experiences working with Moby and her deep understanding of how to run a restaurant in these modern times.

1:39Also, we talk about cookbooks. Should Amanda write another one? We find out. I hope you enjoy this conversation.

1:56Amanda Cohen, welcome to This Is Taste. Oh, thank you so much for having me. It's been a long time coming. You spoke with Anna several years ago, but this is our first episode. So thank you for coming in. Oh, I feel like it's been a while since we've chatted, so it's nice to get this chance. Well, we first chatted in 2008 when you opened Dirt Candy in a small spot in the East Village, now formerly Superiority Burger going to now be a pizza shop. I know. I feel like it's a good luck spot, right? Like there's like the unlucky spots, the cursed spots. And this is definitely for as weird and uncomfortable and awkward as it is.

2:34It's like a blessed spot. It really is. You're also right next to Ollie's, which is the cat shelter. Yeah, that's true. And that's where I got my cats. You did? Yeah, 11 years ago, no, 13 years ago, Sam and Chuck arrived from Ollie's. Oh, were they nice? They're the best cats we've had. And those people at Ollie's are so wonderful. They're just beautiful people. Oh, that's, yeah. Yeah, that was a weird story because it took over Atomic Passion, which was in the East Village forever. A legend, an absolute legend. And also on a food podcast talking about cat shelters is not really what we want to do here.

3:08I wanted to bring it up because I first met you having a meal there in 2008, and you're going on 15 years running. You have a new location, Wolf, in 2015. But man, what a crazy run you've had. How the hell do you do it? How do you maintain momentum? How do you keep operating in New York without stopping for 15 years? Well, I'm incredibly competitive. So I always want to make sure we're the best and people are talking about us. I really don't like to fail. So the only way I know how to do that is to keep getting better and to be, again, better than the people around me. But I like what I do and I have a staff that sort of keeps pushing us forward.

3:51I seem to be getting older, but they seem to be getting younger and more eager and excited. And right now we have actually a really amazing staff at the restaurant and it makes it easy. It's like you kind of want to go to work and see what's going to happen every day. Yeah. We'll talk about the dynamic at your restaurant now and the way that you staff and how your structure is quite progressive. if you've been doing this for a while. But let's go back a little bit. Before you opened Dirt Candy 15 years ago, I read your bio from back in the day, and it said that you had consulted at, quote, unquote, almost every vegetarian restaurant in New York City.

4:27You were the chef of Rockstar Moby's Tea House, Teenie. Definitely shout out to Teenie. So first question is, what was vegetarian food like 17 years ago when you were consulting at every restaurant? At every restaurant.

4:44Well, it was very different than it is now. I think there were some really good restaurants and restaurants that really served the city. But they sort of also served people's like philosophies, life philosophies, much more so than the food. So it was like, oh, you know, people who are really vegetarian because of the environment or because of health or because of political reasons. and they, so that was sort of the number one reason for the restaurant's existence and not the food. And so it was sort of coming out of that like hippie era. It was still a lot of like brown rice and tofu and mock meat.

5:24And I loved a lot of them. Shout out to Zen Palate. Yeah, right? Oh my God. Remember when I was on Union Square and really fancy? Do I remember? I mean, the Mushu platter, they're like this like combination was like every week I would go there in like 1999. Yeah. So I had gone the first time, I think, in 1993. Yeah. I was in university and my mom and I went out for a fancy lunch there. And there was a fancy portion of it upstairs and we were like blown away. And then it had like it's more casual space downstairs and it opened a bunch of different ones. And so they were delicious. I just, when I was sort of trying to figure out what I wanted to do, and I had a really interesting experience working long after Teenie, but at Pure Food and Wine, where I had become the chef for lots of different reasons.

6:23And I kind of had free creativity. Like, I could do what I wanted. But you were in such a box there. Like, you could only cook to 118 degrees. And all of a sudden food became more than just food and sustenance, but it became this way to like be have fun. Yeah. And I realized that I thought that was something that New York was missing was cooked fun vegetarian food. Right. Not like macrobiotic diet. Yeah. Culture. Yeah. I didn't want to be judged on how healthy I was, but actually how good I was. And I thought there were some really brilliant vegetarian chefs out there, but they were so judged on being vegetarian and not on their skills.

7:02Yeah, it was an absolute stigma to be a vegetarian chef. And let me ask you about Moby. So Teeny was great. I mean, do you have something that you brought to that menu that you're proud of? Well, Kelly Tisdale, she had opened it with Moby. And the original menu was hers. And I had gone in and I think I had written her like a letter, maybe an email. I'm not sure if email existed then. I probably did. AOL.com account. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And I had said, you know, I think what you're doing is great, but it seems like maybe you need a chef to help you out a little. I don't know where I'm not actually like a I'm a pretty nervous and shy person.

7:43So where I got this sort of like gumption to go do that. And I was like, but, you know, I think, you know, it's a tea house and we can make it more tea hosy and do tea sandwiches and, you know, some more fun things. And I'd really like to help you out. And she was like, great. And so all of a sudden I had a job at Moby's Tea House. That's cool. Yeah. And I think I did a lot of the vegan desserts and like the tea sandwiches. And then I also made like the soups and salads and sandwiches, whatever. There was like, there was no kitchen. You just sort of like prepped in the middle of the barista station.

8:14This was the space on Rivington Street? Oh, yeah. Like that original down the steps in Rivington, teeny that we know. Yeah. And we did a lot of food in that little space. I'd get there at like 4 a.m. and cook until like 8 a.m. and then leave. Oh, my God. And so Moby, what was – do you still touch base with Moby? I don't, but every once in a while we bump into each other like really randomly at like 2 a.m., drunk. And I don't think he remembers me. And I'm like, hey, it's Amanda. And he's like, oh, my goodness, hi. Yeah. And so then I'm like, oh, you do remember me. Yeah, you remember me. I loved his cookbook.

8:47And I like Lil Pine, too. That was a good restaurant when he was running that. I know. I never actually made it to it. Yeah. I wish I had. But he was super nice. And they were both nice. I mean, it was a really weird, funny little scene. And it was sort of when the Lower East Side was like true Lower East Side. But yeah, they also let me kind of do whatever I wanted. It sounds, I never have spoken to you about your time at Teenie, but it really must have informed your original Dirt Candy experience, which was a tiny space itself, right? Yeah, learning how to cook like with just basically a toaster oven and like one burner.

9:21Yeah, I was sort of like, yeah, if I can do that there, I can do that anywhere. Was it a cold kitchen? Was it like an electric kitchen at Dirt Candy? No, Dirt Candy had gas, but we only had gas in the fryer and the oven. Our stove has always been induction, which everybody thinks I'm really forward thinking about. But it's really just because we had to keep the dining room cold. And so if we had gas, that would make it so much hotter. and we didn't have, when we opened Dirt Candy, it took us about six months before we got gas. And then we finally got gas. But for a while we were cooking and frying in a tiny like little like, you know, like Barbie sized fryer and easy bake oven.

10:06Yeah, yeah. I remember, I mean, those early days, I mean, what was the covers? Was it like 15 seats, 12 seats? I don't know. We had 18 official seats. Official. Official seats. Right. And then we could seat at one time if everybody was small in the dining room, like up to like 22. And then so like in one night we could actually do up to like 64 people. But, I mean, it was really small and people would be like, oh, we're two people. You know, can you squish in another third? And we'd actually have to say, well, we can put another chair at your table. But, you know, if you're not petite, you're going to feel really uncomfortable.

10:48And they'd be like, no, it's fine or whatever. I mean, very awkward conversations because the dining room was so small. Yeah, yeah. I'm a wee little vegan, you know, like I can fit in. I mean, it definitely had a real vibe. And you eventually made the decision to move in 2015 in a much larger space. And I want to focus on your current iteration. conversation um first um let's just talk about what you have on the menu right now because i think this conversation is a little void of food so far but like what have you been loving right now on your menu for your summer menu um okay well we have two dishes i really love love it uh i mean i love everything uh that's obviously but there's uh we have um every year we put our tomato tart back on and i think this year it's really fun it's a little cupcake uh but that's It's not my favorite.

11:43We send out gifts, little extras. And so right now, one of the gifts is this teeny tiny little fennel kimchi chopped cheese. Like the Bronx style coming down. Yeah, exactly. It's about the size of like your thumb. It comes wrapped up in a little piece of tinfoil. It's cut in half, comes in a paper bag. And then we found the cutest little tiny ketchup bottles. Oh, my gosh. And it's just it's a really fun surprise and it's unexpected. And one of the things that we like to do at the table is talk about the food, not just like list the ingredients, but sort of, you know, why we made it and give the history.

12:22And that's a really fun one and easy one for the waiters to sort of get into with the customers because not everybody knows what a chopped cheese is. And so we sort of explain the history of it and talk about it and how we're making it with a fennel kimchi, which is very different than making it with like a hamburger. And so that's fun. And then the other one we have, we're making tamales, but we found these really fun corn molds. And sometimes it's sort of like, oh, it's weird why nobody's ever thought about this before. But the tamale looks like a cob of corn, corn cob. Oh, yeah. Okay. Yeah.

12:55We just have the masa. No, the size of it is exactly like that. No, totally. And so it's just steamed and it comes on and it looks like a piece of corn, but it's actually a tamale. And we also had to buy like a hot dog, like one of those hot dog steamers that you find at 7-Eleven. Oh, yeah. That's how it's kept warm at night. So now it's weird. Like we have this weird like hot dog steamer thing in the back room. But it's fun and people get really excited when they see it and they sort of like make that correlation between the tamale and that the tamale is actually made of corn. I don't think people think about that a lot.

13:29And sometimes ideas seem so like, why didn't we think about that? beforehand. It's just like we were like, I'm so dumb for not having thought about that beforehand. No, but that's the invention of doing your style of menu. And if it isn't clear, listener, this menu is unique. It's a tasting menu we're talking about. We're not talking about a la car ordering and the structure of your restaurant. It's a fixed menu. It's 95 bucks, tip included. And it's something you've been doing since 2015. Yeah, that's cool. Like, let's talk about that because we talk about tipping a lot when this isn't an episode of like the merits pro or con.

14:05I think that's too, I want to talk about your, your story, but like you did that back in the day well before that became common. And what does it allow you to do that pricing structure? You know, so right now it's actually, it's great for us. Uh, we are able to really pay our back of house well. And when I say, well, I mean the, the, they start off at$28 an hour, um, which I was surprised to learn recently, actually how much high, like how much above the average that was, The average is still like$18 to$20, maybe$22. Some people are still getting paid minimum wage. I was like shocked after sort of the pandemic.

14:43I just didn't think you could get employees for that little. And many don't and many close because they can't pay their employees. Well, exactly. Barely, yeah. And then for my front of house, we've settled into this. And it hasn't always been easy. We have struggled certainly over the years with front of house, finding people who really sort of like believed in the no tipping system. But we've settled into it. We find young kids who are really excited to work for us, who are eager to learn the business. And we also find really, really experienced servers who are just done with tipping. They're just like, I just want to know what I make every week.

15:15And, you know, they start at like 28, 29 and it goes upwards. People, we sort of have these built-in raises. And it just actually allows me to get a really good night's sleep. Pre-pandemic, there really was. I know everybody talked about after the pandemic that there was this huge sort of like the great like restaurant resignation and there was no staff. I don't know where everybody was before the pandemic. There was no staff in New York. We were really, really struggling. And, you know, there was I don't you're not in restaurants, but I don't even remember. Like there was a thing called Paired where it was like journeyman cooks.

15:52Oh, cool. And no, awful. Oh, great. Sorry. Not cool. Correction. Strike that from the record. Because people, we kept losing all our cooks to this company where you could just sort of like that day choose what job you wanted to go to. You didn't have to have a permanent job. Oh, it was like a tech company that was like freelancing people out. Yeah, exactly. And then they would sort of like you kept having to raise your prices to get somebody to agree to come. It was awful. And everybody was like, well, yeah, why would I have a full time job that pays me? I don't know, let's say we were paying$20 in an hour, an hour where you have to commit to five days a week as opposed to I'll just get on this like app.

16:29I have some skills. They might they'll probably pay me$25 an hour and I only have to work like three days. It was just this nightmare. Like we were losing so much, so many of our staff to them. And then, you know, everybody's looking for jobs. And so they were like, everybody was looking to like hire people. Sorry. And so like people, it was just this revolving door. We just couldn't keep anybody. and so now with really our new pay structure and we've sort of gone above and beyond and we're offering a lot more benefits i get a good night's sleep because i know that 99 of my staff is going to show up the next day it's huge yeah it sounds like um that that was a big issue of like the no show culture and this paired idea is like confusing to me because how do you actually work in a restaurant when you're not there for like full time i feel like there's a lot of nuance in There is, but everybody was so desperate.

17:19They'd be like, oh, you seem to know how to hold a knife, even though half of them didn't. You'd be like, great. All of a sudden, it'd just be a body. You'd be like, I'm just going to pay a body to stand here. Throw them on the line. Kind of. Barely. Yeah, I mean, it's definitely tricky. Another thing you do at Dirt Candy right now is you highlight your cook's invention. And if they invent a dish, you put it on the menu. Or you just recognize them. And again, this is something that maybe you see a little more now, but you've been doing that for years. Why is that important? Well, one, I don't work alone.

17:49I don't work in a vacuum. I really do get a lot of help. And so even if sometimes the ideas sort of start with me, they're the ones who take it. They're the ones who do the bulk of the work on it. And I just, the restaurant is made up of all of us. And they don't always get to interact with the front of house, like with the customers as much. And I want the front of house to know how important everybody in the back of house is. And it's also a really good way for sort of my sous chefs and my CDC to get that experience of creating a dish. And, you know, when I first started out, they were like, OK, well, you're now the chef.

18:22And I was like, OK, great. And it took a long time to figure out, you know, what customers liked, what customers didn't like, what I could do, what was like not just cost effective, but labor effective. And they're getting all this experience now so that when they leave and hopefully none of them will leave for a while. Yeah. But eventually when they do, they'll be so much further along than I was. Yeah. When I visited in the spring and I hope to visit again in the late summer, early fall. But the vibe was unique because first off, it was definitely people were having a good time and working. But there's definitely a level of seriousness.

18:59Like it was a serious restaurant. And and like especially on the service side, people were like this is like very this is their job. They take it very seriously. So it was a blending of the two vibes that I feel is very unique. I think you're either like just like kind of like wild, like, you know, we're just like hanging out or you're like not having a good time. And it seems like you've created a culture of like letting things slide, not in a culinary sense, but like let people be who they are. Yeah, I think it's sort of become really important. One, I have to go to work every day, so I really don't want to have a bad time.

19:35Yeah. And it's really important that like I actually have a good time at work or like the whole there's just no point in the restaurant anymore. And if I'm not having a good time, then I guarantee you that sort of trickles down and nobody's having a good time. But I do take it really seriously. And so that is the line we work. I want everybody to have a personality. I don't want them to be these like robots at tables. I want them to have fun. I want people to see that the kitchen is really good at their job and they're so good at their job that they can smile and they can talk to each other. and there can be a back and forth.

20:07And then when they need to, they're really serious and they get focused. But that, you know, a kitchen can be a fun place. And, you know, we have all the sort of trappings of fine dining and we have a hierarchy in the kitchen. And that doesn't necessarily mean it's a, like, that's not a bad thing. We make it work. There's ways to make these systems work so that everybody is getting something out of it and everybody's happy. And for the most part, you know, jobs suck. we all have to have them yeah well said i mean it is it's definitely hard work and there's definitely those days probably tears some days it just happens yeah yeah but for the you know we hope for the most part people have more good days than bad days and enjoy themselves more than they hate it and and part of that is letting them have fun and we do let a lot of things slip actually like things were probably five six years ago and this comes with age and experience and feeling really comfortable with the experience.

21:05I'm like, you know what? Just who cares? Like, we're not killing anybody. Yeah. So maybe that, you know, the fork didn't go down on the right side, whatever it is. It's a great baseline to operate a restaurant and have the highest level of like having your rule, like to not kill somebody. That is a great way to start. No, I appreciate what you're saying, because I think it's definitely like, you know, use a tech term, most viable product MVP. Like you just kind of got to do what you can do best and not get It's so crazy in the details. Yeah. And, you know, if every day we hit like 95%, great. What's business like right now?

21:41We're recording this in late July. It's like traditionally like a really tough time for restaurants. Though I was just out last night at Gertrude's in Brooklyn, fucking packed out. So people, how are you doing right now? Well, we're Destination. So we're really lucky. Summer's an easy season for us. We, tourists, like are just, are there. And we're reservations only, so we know exactly how many people are going to come and, you know, people get on the wait list. And so we just tend to fill up. It's a I think it's very rare for most restaurants. And, you know, we're not overly expensive. No, it's a really, really, really important point that you aren't overly expensive because if you dine in New York City,$95 is what you're paying for a couple courses and a drink.

22:27I know. I was in the back of the taxi and restaurant week this year is like$60 for dinner. And I was like, wait a second. I'm basically restaurant week, but I'm five courses. I mean, completely. It used to be like$30 and$20 at lunch. I mean, yeah, that dates is a bit, but man, yeah. I mean, that's a cost of goods issue. Certainly, I think that you've got to recognize that cost of goods are just extremely high right now. Yeah, and cost of labor is going up. Of course. And air conditioning. My air conditioning bill is so expensive. Yeah. Like electricity. It's just, you know, right now I think we're at like$5 ,000.

23:05Wow. I know. That's, well, it makes sense. I mean, it's definitely, there's an energy crunch. And I think certainly you look at your bills this summer, it's higher. But still at 95, you're able to pay equitable wage and you're able to, you know, do you make money yourself? Yeah, since the pandemic, because we went to the slightly smaller set menu, it used to be much bigger. And we used to offer two versions. We've actually, I mean, we don't make a ton of money, but we make real restaurant money. Some months we're at 10%, some months our profit's 5%. I think we rarely have months where we make nothing anymore.

23:46Beautiful. Yeah, the system is really working. And that is because of the fixed menu that, well, there's two reasons. And because people are always like, I don't understand.

23:59One, my rent is actually, it's pretty reasonable. You know, we have 2 ,500 square feet. And I think our rent right now is about maybe 13 ,000, 1 ,000. Maybe it's 13 ,000. But for New York City, it's actually like crazy reasonable. When I was leaving Dirt Candy, the little one, little Dirt Candy at like 400 square feet, I think my rent was close to like 6 ,000 or 7 ,000. Wow. Huge, huge difference. Wow. And so that really does, for the numbers we're able to do, the rent, that makes this big difference. But I'm also having the fixed menu, my food costs are down to about 12%. Oh, wow. I mean, that's really, really smart.