270: Alex Delany

0:28This episode is brought to you by Resi and American Express. NA beer is the best NA category, period. There is no other category in booze that has a non-alcoholic alternative that is as good or as faithful to the original product as NA beer. And I think people that miss beer or don't want to drink fully alcoholic beers appreciate that. This is Taste. I'm your host, Matt Rodbard.

0:59it's really fun having alex delaney back on the show and getting to know the food and drink and menswear and rare book writer and collector a little bit better you may know alex from his time working at bon appetit as a writer covering home cooking wine cocktails and naturally processed coffee respect to that but since leaving ba in early 2021 alex has been busy working as a consultant podcaster wine educator and most recently as the author of a really cool city guy called Everything Good. As the name suggests, the free Google Doc notes the good things happening in neighborhoods around New York City.

1:31I hope you enjoy this conversation on all things everything good.

1:43Alex Delaney, welcome back to This Is Taste. Matt, thank you for having me back to This Is Taste. Two-timer here. I appreciate it. I want to bring you in once a year. Just like check in. I'm good. I'm good with that contract. Yeah, it's like a contract written in pizza. As all contracts should be. They should be definitely doing. So I want to ask you about the Delaney effect, and this is definitely my term, not yours. You've never publicized this because it would be corny and that's not what you do. But I feel like when you put something on Instagram in particular or other social media spots, you know, you actually move the needle for small businesses.

2:18So do you think about your online presence as like an editorial? Are you like an editorial director? Do you schedule it? No. There's absolutely – that would go very against my personality to schedule it. There's zero schedule. It's really – you know, I kind of look at a lot of people who make content, you know, as a premeditated thing. I kind of look at it as a reactionary thing to how I'm living my life. So it's like if I eat a bunch of great meals over the past week, like I'll post a bunch of stuff that I ate that I loved. It's not – like there's no schedule. There's no content calendar. There's nothing like that.

2:52Nice. I mean, I assumed that was your answer, and I feel it's heartfelt. But, like, has there been any examples of, like, you've posted something, like, a small restaurant. They've, like, hit you up like, man, people came in, and we weren't ready for it. A couple – I don't know if it was, like, onslaught like that. But a couple of things that I remember recently, I posted, and I also wrote about Farah Wine Bar in Tribeca, which I really, really love. I ate dinner there last week. and they hit me up and were like, yo, this was amazing. Thank you so much. We've got so much business. But the funniest one lately was I live like maybe a five-minute walk away from Abrasso in the East Village, classic, old-school cafe.

3:34Maybe a month or two ago I posted they do this like espresso tonic essentially, sparkling water espresso, and they do like this amazing slab of super dense whipped cream on the top of it. And I posted it and I was like, this thing's fucking amazing. and I didn't go for a couple weeks and I came back and I was waiting behind this woman in line and she goes and she orders the espresso, tonic, seltzer, whatever thing and the guy's like, man, so many people have been ordering this and she's like, wait, what do you mean? And he's like, yeah, some influencer posted about it and she's like, actually, I have to admit, I'm here because of the influencer and didn't realize I was behind her and then I came up and I was like, damn, man, influencers, huh?

4:15And the guy was like, dude, everyone's ordering it. And I was like, okay, I'll just have a Cortado. Oh, my God. And I didn't say anything. That's funny. That's funny that you played it in the moment. So funny. I like that. It's like a kind-hearted way to look at it, and I feel like that's the way that you post. It's always positive. You're obviously editing and not posting negative shit on there. Yeah, yeah, of course. Let me ask you, you've been out of Bon App for a while, and you've been out of formal writing, but do you want to get back in that game? Because I feel like I just love it and we'll talk about everything's good, everything good.

4:48But do you want to get back in? It's funny. Since I left, I have not been paid by anyone to write anything. And I think that's like I do have a little bit. The itch is there, I'll say. But I think that that's why I do everything good. I can write, you know, at my own cadence. I can do whatever I want to do. I don't have to go through a million steps before publishing anything. And it's something that I feel like is worthwhile doing. maybe I'll write something but I don't want to just write something to write something I want the first thing that I write after not writing professionally for a long time to be something that I feel really strongly no I respect that and we'll get into everything good your recent issue and you've done four of them I think by now yeah for working on the fifth one you're working on the fifth one and the last neighborhood you basically cover neighborhoods and you're saying this is everything good you make real choices um you're not doing this for money right no it's actually it's funny the last one i i kind of wanted to test the waters a little bit and i just said you know if you like this and you want to make a donation whatever like this is my tip jar model this is my event you can tip me if you want um but no it's not like before that all of them have been for charitable organizations i just ask people to make a donation to a charity um but yeah it's it's kind of just like all this shit is bouncing around my head yeah all the time so i I figured that I should put it somewhere.

6:09Yeah, and you put it in a Google Doc, and did anyone hit you up on Venmo? Yeah. Yeah, they did. More than just pure money? I got some nice pizza money for the weekend. All right, respect that. Well, you know, it's nice to support creators, and you're not on, like, Substack, which makes it a little easier. Yeah, yeah. But it's kind of the same. All right, so let's, like, get into Tribeca because I really want to get your take. First, like, Sambar is actually good. Yeah, okay. I went, and I was like, it was a friend was going. and weirdly I was there like twice in two weeks for totally unrelated purposes.

6:38Friend was going, was like, hey, I have an extra seat at this dinner. It's like, my company's covering it. Do you want to just come along? I was like, yeah, sure. And I was like, I haven't eaten at Sambar, you know, since it was on 12th, 13th. It was on first and 12th, yeah. Yeah. And we ate and we got the pork shoulder and I was like, this is fucking good. Like, it's still very good. That's like, I think, one of the best large format dishes in New York City. Yeah, the full ducks too have been good there. Yeah, totally. But all the food we had there was great. And then I was randomly there for an event the next week with like little past dishes or whatever.

7:09Same thing. It was all good. And I was like, huh. You know, the reason I asked, is it good? It wasn't actually shaded. I was like, I was just so sad when I left East Village. Me too. And I know Chang is like divested personally from a lot of his restaurants, but I know he's got some cool guys there. Yeah. So that was on the list. And Frenchette is still boss, right? Frenchette is still good. And I want to say even more specifically, the bar at Frenchette is still very good. I'll say if you're looking to have a cocktail in Tribeca, you should probably end up at the bar at Frenchette. It's so good.

7:43The vibe is always awesome. It's a buzzy room. To me, Frenchette is everything that I want the Odeon to be. Oh, I know. We've snarked a bit on Odeon here. I don't need to re-litigate that one. But, yeah, the Odeon T-shirts are selling pretty hot. The hats are big. Yeah, but I feel you and La Roque is quite different from Frenchette, right? Yeah, totally. I don't think – yeah, I mean La Roque feels like it's in Midtown and Frenchette does not, I think is the thing. But there's also the thing about Frenchette that's like I kind of romanticize Frenchette a little bit because when I was working in food media around the same time that Frenchette opened and there was all this – I just have a lot of memories with Frenchette.

8:22But that's a restaurant that I still think is operating at a very, very high level. Yeah, it's a fun place, too, as the season turns to fall. You know Fashion Week's going to roll in at some point. There's always a great scene there. Oh, yeah. It's a cool spot. Now, I have to ask you about Chambers because I agree Racine's was not my vibe either. No, it was not. You make a pointed remark about Racine's, the previous restaurant or wine bar that was there. Yeah. Racine's always felt—I always felt like I was under attack when I was in Racine's. I think you said this to me. It felt very French and not in a way that I loved.

8:56I just felt that there should have been more fun happening and it should have been a looser vibe in that restaurant. And it always felt very restrictive and like I should be appreciating every single second. Yeah, the chambers took over and I do feel like it's a much more relaxed atmosphere. The food is not in your face pretentious. It is very well done. It's not – I'll say the food isn't going to like break any gastronomical barriers or anything. but I think the wine program is amazing. The buy the glass list is excellent. And yeah, it's like it's still the Chambers part of the street from Chambers Street Wines is involved in the restaurant.

9:34Oh, so it's the guys from Chamber Street Wines. Yes. Okay, that makes sense now. So it's like a wine shop extension cafe. Exactly. You can't buy a bottle of wine there. Right. It makes a lot of sense. Cool observation because I think a lot of listeners are coming to New York and we like to give tips all the time. But, you know, Tribeca's got Grand Daisy, Old School, Frenchette Bakery, Takahachi and I'm probably forgetting others but like the baking scene in Tribeca for a pretty small neighborhood is tremendous totally and and I'll pair that with the coffee scene in Tribeca is also tremendous um but I was thinking about this a lot and you know as I'm writing the guys I always pay attention it's like which neighborhoods have the most bakeries or the most coffee shops or the most bars or whatever and Tribeca is a really really interesting neighborhood and and to be clear in the guide is Tribeca and Fidei yeah but I think it's a very interesting coupling of neighborhoods because one, Tribeca is very family oriented and very residential.

10:28You wouldn't, I mean, not everyone can afford Tribeca. I mean, a very special kind of family. Totally. Totally. And it's also very, Fidei is very nine to five work. So you have these people that are around during the day and around in the morning, which I think is, you know, a pretty good clientele to have to open a bakery. and sell pastries or bread or whatever all day. Same thing with coffee. I think, like, the reason Black Fox and Interlude and, you know, all these great coffee shops are down there is because people are down there, and in the morning or the early afternoon, like, there's a billion people wanting to go get coffee.

11:05Yeah, Interlude is great. And I like the selections. Drip did not make it. Is that technically Soho? Is that why? Yes. Okay, yeah. I stay pretty tight on the borders. I like it. I like it. No, it's a cool guide. I'm going to link it in the show notes. And you were working your fifth. What can you say about the fifth guide? The fifth one is going to be the neighborhood that I live in right now, which is Alphabet City and the East Village. Okay. The East Village always, I feel every three years, needs a rethink. I am so overwhelmed every morning just stepping out being like, oh, where am I going to get pastry?

11:36I personally think that in Manhattan, the East Village is the most diverse and available food neighborhood, period. 100%. I lived in 02 to 05 at 7th Street Avenue A and, you know, went away. The East Village went away when Brooklyn became Brooklyn in the mid-aughts. Yeah. Or like 2010 to 2020, you know, 20. So 10 years, the East Village, I felt, was kind of just sitting there, you know, great places, establishments, but it certainly is back now. Oh, for sure. I just feel like the amount of – I feel like every other week there's a new food business that opens in the East Village. Agree. And let's just go there because I want your take on Superiority Burger because, you know, outside of what Brooks has done with the menu and really it's tremendous work.

12:16And we knew that was going to happen because it's Brooks Headley and he does not miss. But this was hands down the biggest opening in probably the past three years in terms of media attention, in terms of just hitting the zeitgeist, but also just getting a lot of people into the space. It's not exclusive. You have to wait a little while, but there's a bar back there. So, Alex, tell me, what's your take on that place in particular? I think Superiority Burger is very funny. And I think the reason that the opening was so monumental is because, I mean, now it's like I guess we don't really think about it.

12:48But before they opened, it was like two and a half years before they opened where Brooks was like, yeah, we're opening a restaurant. And then it was like kind of like a will they won't. Like in my head, I was like, guys, just open the fucking restaurant. Like this needs to happen. And I think there was just so much anticipation behind it. But you have that coupled with the fact that, like you said, Brooks is a legend. The neighborhood loves him, which I think is the most important part of operating food business in any city. The neighborhood loves him. Music people love him. Food people love him.

13:20Vegetarians and vegans love him. He has all these communities that ride really hard for what they ride for. And he's in this amazing like Venn diagram of these very passionate groups. Yeah, and I think the artists like him. He's got a real sense of style with his spaces and the way he designs. Totally. He makes it feel it's like equal but separate. I mean, he definitely has, like, a sense of, like, he has his own point of view, and there's obviously a punk aesthetic happening at all times, but it's always inviting. Always, always. You know? And I think he's also a very, he's a very humble guy, too.

13:52Like, when I, the first time I went in, like, the first Monday that they were open, and I showed up at 5, and I just sat down by myself and, like, just tried some stuff. And the desserts were obviously fantastic. I was like, Brooks, the desserts are great. And he's like, oh, don't thank me. Like, go over and thank the pastry team. And he's very like that. It's extremely genuine, yeah. Brooks, please come on the show. I've been emailing you for three months. Good luck. Yeah, I know. He's a tough one. We've done plenty of stories with Brooks, but I respect it, and we'll get him on eventually. Some news and notes to cover with you.

14:25This Rao's Pizza Sauce acquisition by Campbell's is super interesting, and I wanted to get your take because we've got basically this restaurant, Rao's, we all know, is legendary, and they went into the CPG world. in the past five years, it's not bad sauce. No, I would say arguably it's good sauce for, you know, jarred sauce. For jarred sauce. And I think it's definitely better than anything that people going to regular grocery stores that aren't stocking, you know, carbone sauce or whatever, which also I don't necessarily have opinions about. I haven't tried. But I think that, like, you know, when you're being bought by a company like Campbell's, which is Campbell's bread and butter or their soup, is middle America.

15:11I think that anything that's even slightly better is going to make a huge impact. And I think that Raya sauce is, for a jarred sauce, pretty fucking good. Yeah, it's pretty good. I like Meatball Shop personally, but I also have to respect the way that the company has gone from a small restaurant to this large$2.3 billion acquisition. And they are like 85 % of Savos, which is the parent company, also Nusa Yogurt. So my question about this is like how are restaurants now leveraging their brand? Are you seeing this? You're an expert and you consult with brand in the restaurant space, so I think you're very qualified.

15:45You know, I feel like we're at a tipping point with this acquisition. It's like, man, like when will Prune get acquired for$30 million? Like this is like life-changing amounts of money, generational money. Like I feel like Momofuku, is that worth a billion dollars? Like this is crazy numbers being thrown out there. Yeah, and I think a lot of it has to do with, again, I think people in food and especially people that open new restaurants really want their brand to be a brand immediately. And when you look at these brands, like these are legacy brands. And I would even argue that Momofuku is like not – hasn't been in CPG long enough to even be considered about things.

16:21Like they have another five to seven years before that conversation even happens in my eyes. But I think it's like get into the CPG game and stay there and don't pivot. Like get in, do your thing, do it really well, do it better than anyone else or cooler than anyone else or cheaper than anyone else. You know, pick your poison. Even better, maybe two of those poisons. But, yeah, I think it's about like being there and letting people know and reminding people that like, hey, this is what we do. We do it really well. Yeah, we do it well. And I respect and I agree with like you need longevity. And you look at the guys from Wild there.

16:56They've been doing this for like almost a decade now. Totally. So they might be approaching that. But, like, I feel like food right now, there's real value. We just published a story about brand integrations, and we look at, like, the Sweetgreen and Susan Alexandra collaboration, Apartment 4F, and those guys. Like, we think about, like, food as being more than just food, but now we're actually attaching dollars to it. Absolutely. And I think it's also funny with these – when I look at these collaborations between, you know, food brands and personalities or brands and food personalities or whatever, it's me to me it's very clear that when you look at it and you're like oh this is because the whatever has a brand or this is because whatever they're doing is good and i think for the person or conglomerate or whoever purchasing or collaborating like they're both equally valuable but sometimes i look at a thing and i'm like oh that's who you partnered with yeah and then you're like oh because they have instagram followers and whatever and they're buzzy and whatever celebrity goes there but i kind of scratch my head a little bit when people do oh yeah there's a lot of examples of like what and like it's comes down to like in like basically engagement numbers and not quality yeah um i guess we can't really come to a conclusion um but it seems that in the next few years just with this rayos acquisition by campbell's i feel like more brands large companies are going to be looking at restaurant brands and maybe acquiring them more totally i agree and also looking at um you know entire categories you know not just a sale that's as big as 2.3 billion but looking at, you know, how do I buy 10 smaller restaurant brands that maybe are worth 50 million as a total?

18:32And then using that to take over a sector. Speaking of categories, I wanted to ask you about NA beer. I've said on the show and we've, and Liza and I have talked about it. It seems like this summer there was a big sea change. It seems like the Langanitas, I saw that everywhere. That's kind of hoppy seltzers like up at ShopRite in like 50 States now, but we've got of course, It's athletic, like leading the charge. Every small brewery has an N.A. So, Alex, what is your take on N.A. beer right now? Do you think this is another fad, like a La Croix moment, or do you think it's here to stay? I think it's here to stay, and I think it's – I'll say this.

19:05N.A. beer is the best N.A. category, period. There's no – 100 % agree. There is no other category in booze that has a non-alcoholic alternative that is as good or as faithful to the original product as N.A. beer. That's like period. And I think people that miss beer or don't want to drink 40 fully alcoholic beers over the course of a week and just want to switch it up and take a little breath, appreciate that, you know? Yeah. And it's funny. I – my partner, my girlfriend, she does not drink alcohol. So I've been going through some N8 beers. Yeah. I'll say big time shout out to non-alcoholic Guinness.

19:47It is fucking good. Whoa. Yeah, kind of mind-blowing, but it's really good. And then big-time shout-out to Owls Pilsner. Owls is like, he's been, since day one, my favorite. Yeah, Owls has been great. You can get that at Superiority Burger, by the way. Yeah, you can. At the bar. And Owls is cool. And, like, the branding moment of Owls. Like, where does Owls come from? I forget. Owls is— West Coast? No, upstate New York. Upstate New York. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I agree with you fully. It's very faithful. It also seems like we were in that sessionable moment, like 5.6 or 3.5, whatever. Yeah, yeah. But now it's like, why do you even want 3.5?

20:20Like, just go straight NA. Exactly. And I think it's also the thing of, like, the reason I would want a 2.5 % beer or a 2 % ABV beer is because it's really good beer. And the reason I would want a non-alcoholic beer is because it's really good beer. You know, the baseline for that doesn't change. Yeah. It's going to be a good product if it's a good product. Yeah, man. All right, Love Club. Let's talk about it. You do nights in New York and Richmond, Virginia. We talked off mic about Richmond. Love to Richmond. Massive love to Richmond. What a great food city. Great food city. So, yeah, I do this dance party series called Love Club with my friend Dean, Dean Javos.

21:00And he is originally from Richmond. He was in New York for a very long time, moved back to Richmond where his parents live at the beginning of the pandemic. So he's based there. They have an amazing venue. Maybe my favorite venue to play in, it's called the Jungle Room. It has a very cool cocktail bar Sick stage Amazing sound system So we try and play there Maybe like once every three months But whenever I'm there I'm also just psyched to be there to eat Yeah Because Richmond's such a good food city It's really great And we talked about Mamazoo And they go to Eddow's every Eddow's So we always do Saturday night Love Club at the Jungle Room And then we'll do Sunday Supper at Eddow's Which is I'll go on Mike I'll say this That's my favorite restaurant in America I fucking love Eddow's Yeah, up the stairs, you're going to get the rockfish.

21:47You're going to get definitely some kind of oyster, clam. You're going to definitely get three pastas. You're definitely going to get some kind of flatbread. Yep, and you're going to pay$45 for a bottle of COS for pato, which you'd pay$95 for in New York. It's, I love it so much. Yeah, alcohol margins are really good at these restaurants. Really good. Yeah, they definitely treat their customers right. Are you, like, more into music than food? It seems like it's, like, probably more of your path, like, DJing. You know, it's really funny. I think it depends on the day. It totally depends on the day.

22:19I don't know if there's one path for me, but I do think that like right now I'm spending a very large chunk of my time trying to figure out how to make Love Club a more nationwide and a bigger thing. And it's in the works, we'll say. I love it. We'll definitely, you know, follow you and find out what's going on with the future. But like, how do you bring food and Love Club together? There's these like two communities that we're talking about how food is definitely the zeitgeist, but how do you bring them together? For sure. I mean, there's a bunch of different ways we do it. Also, I'll say this.

22:56Dean, my friend that I do Love Club with, he's a restaurant guy too. So he, his family owns some really great restaurants in Richmond. He does all of, you know, the interiors and the graphic, he's a graphic designer, graphic design and branding for all the restaurants. So he's been in restaurants his whole life. And we always try and do something food related just on a more personal level. Like we always have a dinner and we invite some friends before every love club and we always pick a spot and make it a thing. But the last time when we were just in Richmond, we did a kind of like a ticketed private love club dinner the night before.

23:30See, that's what I'm talking about. Yeah, our buddy Daniel cooked this on. Daniel Harhausen, who's doing the show. Yeah, a vet of the pod. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, Daniel is such a great guy. and we kind of hit him up and we were like, yo, Daniel, we should do, I think it was 22 people seated dinner before. He did seven or eight courses. I did a whole wine menu of pairings. So it's cool. And, you know, Dean like made a whole playlist. So like, it's cool to just like sit there and be like, hey, this is also what Love Club's about. You obviously were thinking about this because I was hoping you would say that because it seems to me it's not just DJ Night, though that's fucking fun.

24:08Yeah. Ending up at 3 a.m. dancing to disco, but like, listen, if you can start with a really nice meal starting at eight or nine and segwaying into the music. Yeah. And, and the other, the other half of that is moving forward. Now we're going to be more, we have a monthly residency at Jean's on Lafayette street, um, in, in Noho and moving forward, we're going to be more involved with the cocktail program there. So we're going to be doing, you know, special drinks and we're fucking around with weird, cool aromatic oils in their soda machine. And it's going to be fun. Let's talk about books a little bit.

24:42Last episode, linked in the show notes, we talked a lot about books and some of your book buying grails and all that. But let's talk about what kind of books are you interested in right now? And also, are you thinking about maybe working on your own book? My own book? I honestly have not thought about. But I asked you this last time, man. You had some homework. I had some homework to do. But you know, it's funny. My partner, she also loves books, is obsessed with books, art books, non-art books, every type. And we have been brainstorming and kind of getting in on the zine front. And we're in the very early stages of making a couple just like really fun New York City food zines, one of which is a guide to New York City movie theater.

25:27She's also a big movie nerd, but based solely on the snack and concession counters. How warm is the popcorn? How salty is the popcorn? Is it a fountain soda? Are you getting a bottle of Diet Coke? You know. Yeah. It's just a silly idea. But in terms of like an actual book, there has not been anything on my mind. All right. We'll talk about that because I think it would be great to see you in the book world record at Penguin Random House. So I got to bring that up. But it's cool. It seems like this movie theater idea, it feels like very 90s, like down the hatch, Robert Seitz, but like real zine style.