277: James Park

0:28This episode is brought to you by Resi and American Express. I feel very blessed to live in New York City and have access to so many Korean restaurants that are really pushing the boundaries as well. I think what New York City Korean restaurants are doing is having a perfect balance of keeping some traditions but not being stuck in the tradition. This is Taste. I'm your host, Matt Rodbard.

0:59James Park is a content creator and the author of Chili Crisp a sharp look at one of America's favorite products to cook with today on this episode we speak with James about the different types of chili crisps to buy and make as well as some unexpected discoveries he's made along the way I hope you enjoyed my talk with James who is definitely one of my favorite dudes in food

1:27James Park, this is Taste. How are you doing? Good. How are you? It's so great to see you. It's been a few months. I haven't seen you in a minute. Yeah, it's kind of surreal that I'm sitting here in a studio with you that's not at a Korean restaurant. I know. Just talking about Korean food and actually talking about my cookbook. So I'm very, very excited that we're here. Which is not a Korean cookbook. It's Chili Crisp and we'll get to that. Yeah, we usually just dine out. We'll have some barbecue or something else. What's good right now in your Korean restaurants? I feel we could talk about this like all hour.

1:57My go-to restaurant has been, okay, two. Ari Ari and Samoojung. Those two are like both of them from Han Hospitality, which I think it's truly the top of the class in New York City when it comes to Korean food. But those two restaurants really make me forget that I'm in New York City. Like the food that delivers like truly top notch. Yeah, I love her name is Han. It's always been my guy. I'm going to Ariari tonight randomly. Oh, oh my God. I'm so excited. Like, I'm excited for you because it's like I go there. Like, I've been there at least like eight, nine times. And every time I go there, I just get so excited.

2:34And you have to get the fried stuffed peppers. Oh, excellent. That's like a sleeper hit, in my opinion, that not everyone orders. But it makes me so happy. I'm going to report back on the show. Maybe it's before this airs or after. I don't know the order of this. But we're not going to talk about Korean food right away, but we will get there. Yes. But we're going to talk about Chili Crisp. Yeah. You've written this book called Chili Crisp, which we've talked about. It is definitely one of our favorite fall books. It's amazing in all respects. It's really well edited and written and it's really tight and conceptual.

3:05But I want to know about you, James. How did you come to Chili Crisp? Yeah. I mean, I feel like my journey with Chili Crisp really could be turned into a movie. I think it all just started with me getting laws and the grocery store aisle in Hong Kong supermarket in Chinatown. So I wasn't really exposed to any sort of a Chinese food growing up in Alabama. But once I moved to New York City, that's when I really was exposed to so many cultural things that really got me excited. And one of my favorite things to do is like getting laws and just exploring grocery aisles. and chili crisp was one of those that really caught my attention um at first it was more like fascination of like what is this and like oh and what's so funny is like you know there are so many different kinds of la gama and the very first thing was uh it was fried chili in oil which is not spicy chili crisp so the first one that i tried uh i did not like it at all so i thought it was like oh maybe this is not for me and then later i found out from my chinese friends that like i tried the wrong thing and i got the laocam line i was like oh my god what is this thing that truly exploded um my mind and then i've been sharing my love and like enthusiasm cooking and eating chili chris online and i think this really became something personal and big for me when I wrote an Eater article on the guide of Ultimate Chili Cris.

4:37And that's like during like pandemic, everyone was kind of like feeling so, I don't know, they maybe needed some sort of spice and there are things to like make themselves happy. And that's certainly how I really like started my collection of Chili Cris. And I share that and the response has been incredible. Like, oh my God, like I also have all this different kind of collections. And like I that's when I saw that there was a whole community and it made me really feel like this was like a perfect gateway for me to introduce myself and learn other people. Yeah. And honestly, Chili Crisp, we've written about it.

5:13Kathy Erway wrote a great piece for Taste in 2017 and we get into Langa Ma and that was actually before Fly by Jing came out. Yeah. You're such a social media savant. You're genius at it. You're really good. And I'll link to your profiles. But it seems Chili Crisp was was tailor made for for video for short form video. because of the color palettes and the texture. Yeah. So you clearly were seeing what cooking with it, not just from a flavor point of view, but it was actually good. It was, like, entertaining almost. It was just so fun because each brand has such a different look and color and, like, it has a different texture that you can see.

5:48And just I think me not coming up with, like, Chili Crisp from, like, my childhood, I was able to just really push, like, what could be possible in my cooking, I think my general cooking is like whimsical, fun, and kind of like boundary pushing in a way that I was really sharing like what makes me really excited to eat. And I think that really stuck with a lot of people. Let's go over some of the chili crisps because you mentioned Langamala alone has different varieties. But like how is chili crisps different from brand to brand? I mean, what are you looking at when you're thinking about judging a chili crisp?

6:26Yeah, this is like when I get really nerdy about it. That's what we're here for. Let's go. So there are two things that you should look at. Oil to crisp ratio. So each brand has a different ratio of oil and chili crisp. So, for example, Fly By Jing has more oil than the crisp. But if you just kind of like stir around from the bottom, you can definitely see it. But when you finish on a drizzle, I think the oil kind of comes out faster and it's kind of like it covers like the food. But if you look at La Gama, spicy chili crisp, it's heavily crisp and you can like hear the crunchy sound. And I don't think it's one of those you can even get the oil like because all you're getting is like just pure crunch.

7:12You're like mining. It's like you're like from the 1800s in California, you're mining for it. When it hits the heat, it definitely releases the oil. So like when you're cooking with Lagoma Chilli Crest, you definitely get the flavor of oil. And all the brands have like their own unique blend of a different flavoring and oil. And how you cook each brand comes out with a completely different result. And like I think that really gave me excitement of like, oh, my God, like even though I am cooking with Chilli Crest, The final result and the final tasting experience is so different. And it just kept me buying more and more.

7:50And I would use, like, different kinds of chili crisps for different purposes. So I would, like, cook with Lagama Chili Crisps. But I would finish with Fly by Jang. And I would constantly get recommended by different brands. And there are just truly so many different kinds of chili crisps out there. I mean, there's a lot. During the pandemic, a lot of companies just started making their own. Leads to my next question. What's cool about the book is it's not just about cooking with these products you buy in grocery store or via Amazon. You're making your own. So you've got recipes. The first recipe in the book is like making your own.

8:24So for our listeners, why is it worth making your own when you've got all these great products? Like I think making my own was not even something that I thought about before I got this cookbook. But I felt like if I'm going to make a cookbook about that, I felt like I needed to have a chili crisp that really represented my stories and flavors. So I after tasting like 20 plus different chili crisp jars, I knew what I wanted and my chili crisp, what I didn't want. So the very first thing was I wanted to be very crisp forward. And I also wanted to capture the flavors of Korean food in a way that I couldn't really get from other chili crisp.

9:04I think chili crisp inherently being Chinese traditional condiment, a lot of flavors are something that I enjoy, but I couldn't really apply to Korean cooking. So I had a mission of like, if I'm going to make a chili crisp, I want this to go along with Korean food. It's so cool. And I drew inspiration from like my Korean cooking technique. So the base is a scallion garlic gochujang oil. So I like make an infused oil and then I have three different blends of chili flakes, gochugaru, which is a Korean red pepper flakes, and Sichuan pepper flakes. That is not mala and tingly, to be honest. I do not like, I can't really enjoy the tingling sensation as much.

9:45Yeah, it can be a little much in a blitz palette. Yeah, it's a lot. Yeah, but the Sichuan pepper flakes really has a clean, spicy taste that doesn't have a tingling taste. And the third pepper flakes is Aleppo pepper flakes that really create beautiful jewel, like red color. So with the blend of that and all the other seasoning, when I taste it, I think that's when I had a moment of like, wow, this is something special that I feel like I'm on to something. Yeah, it's like hybridized in a way. And it's interesting you bring it up like a Korean cuisine doesn't have really chili crisp. It's, you know, in Japanese cuisine, there's a garlic crisp, which is part of ramen and noodle service.

10:27And then, of course, chili crisp from Chengdu and Sichuan and other parts of China. But you created this hybridized version. Yeah. And are you feeling like the way your recipes are written, it leans more towards the Korean palate a little bit more? I think these are definitely the recipes, especially in the book, that I cook with chili crisp. So there are like half of Korean recipes and there's a lot of like just pasta recipes. And I think what you think about this Chili Chris cookbook is like more of a possibilities that you can do with a jar of Chili Chris beyond just finishing on top of like your fried eggs or avocado toast.

11:05And I think a lot of people are definitely getting into using that. But like from my point of view, they kind of put chilikers in a box in a way like how and when it's going to be used. It's mostly used in Asian food. It's mostly used in Chinese food, finished on top of noodles and dumplings. But you can go so much more beyond that. And I think that's what I'm trying to like really tell people, hey, you can make brownies with these. You can make pound cake with this. Yeah, no, it's really cool that you're trying to break borders a little bit with your recipe development. And also some of the pairings I marked, potato chips, BEC, bacon, egg, and cheese, silken tofu, cheeseburgers.

11:48Oh, so good. Like, I mean, yes, and that makes perfect sense. You're like permission to use chili crisp on cheeseburgers. Yeah. Tell me a little bit more about how you're thinking about pairing. What are you looking to do with the chili crisp when you're pairing it with these ideas and these recipes? Yeah, I think one of the best pairings that I had was with Popeyes. So I make this like a Popeye sandwich with the biscuit. So what I do is I take off like the skin of the Popeyes. So you just get the crispy part. And then usually it's thigh pieces. So you like kind of shred the thigh pieces. Is there any other choice?

12:21You have to go dark meat with Popeyes. I don't know. I feel like you have to get the thighs. Who gets white meat at Popeyes? I don't even think it's available. Actually, I hate the really large chunk of like chicken breast. I usually use it just like... Who eats that? I don't. I just use that into like a chicken salad. Maybe like in the time machine from like 1985. You're not there. That's why Jollibee is like, you know, they only serve like the thighs. All dark everything. Yeah, Jollibee. Anyway, yeah, going back to the sandwich moment. So I take... And I get that buttery, warm biscuit. And I smear a lot of like mashed potato on the bottom.

12:55And I put the shredded chicken meat. and I finished with I almost like closed that with the chicken skin and closed that with the top of biscuit and finished with a drizzle of chili crisps and that was like mind blown in a way that I wanted to like write a letter to the CEO of Popeye so like please make this a thing and then that's kind of what really launched my wild ideas of like pairing and I almost think of like pairing chili crisps as like butter you know so like there's a saying that butter makes everything better and there is not a single food group or dish that butter cannot enhance the flavors and i think chili crisps can really do that in a way that if the dish is a little too rich like you can bring the spice if it needs some sort of a crunchy bits uh chili crisps can do that and it just has so many like versatile usage in a way that i feel like it's one of those like um one of those like Pokemon that can like transform into like the flavors and the forms depending on where it's used.

13:58Let's go back to your time living in America. You dedicate the book to your American family, your family in Alabama, in the American South. And I want to hear a little bit about what was food like growing up when you lived in Alabama and the American South? Yeah, I think that's when I really learned a lot about traditional American food. That's when I first tasted roast chicken um that's when i first tasted like potato salad and like you know the true southern food like peach crumbles and so um my american mom who i call princess she was an extremely amazing good cook who taught me everything about like julia child and like roasted potatoes and one food group that i will never forget is my american grandma sally she is known for pickled okra and i have not tasted anything better than her pickled okra until now because you know i i compared those pickled okra as like lace potato chips like you hear the crunch it's so crunchy it's like perfectly tangy acidic uh salty bites that i actually asked a whole mason jar of pickled okra as my birthday gift and she gave it to me and it was like one of the best birthday gifts ever and without them i don't think i would really have a sense of what american food was like but thanks to them like i think i have a better sense of like the what true american comfort food tastes like yeah and it's certainly different from what i grew up with but i have this side that i can truly appreciate things like buttermilk pie and all those traditional southern recipes that's passed down real traditional not like the fusion stuff yeah like oh my god i also remember like tasting buttermilk pie for the first time that recipe was passed down from like you know princesses like older grandma and all of that and when i tasted it i was like just i felt like i was melting into that slice of buttermilk as an aside are you intrigued by bama rush and that whole meme happening i mean you lived in alabama for your high school year yeah your high school year yeah that was actually my life and it's really funny that was your life it's really funny to think about i was like consulting with my girlfriends about being so stressed about like sororities and like all those like football games and so my school's cheerleaders like took pictures with the cows before the school game because our school was like in the middle of the cow farm yeah and all this pepper early and like you know the weekend of like mudding and going to sonic after football game like i can't believe that i sonic yeah it's so good it's so good i can't believe that I actually had that life before my life in New York City and as I'm like meeting new people talking about my past they're all looking at me like what what are you talking about yeah it's definitely like a movie I mean and and I want to go back even further and we're going to call this the Korean food section of the interview because you're born in Pohang you moved to Alabama for high school and then you ended up in New York City after high school but you went you grew up in Pohang, which is, you know, the center of the steel industry and the auto industry in Korea.

17:10It's a part of Korea that I don't think it's mentioned as much as other parts like Seoul and Busan and even Jovado. Yeah. But I've been to Pohang. I know you are literally the very first person that I ever met who visited. I remember the very first time we met. We met, yeah. You were telling me how you ate whale meat, which is one of those delicacies in my hometown. and it truly shocked me that I met so many Korean people, Korean chefs who live in New York City and most of them are from Seoul and not even close to like the region that I was from. I know. So meeting you and like having such a personal story that you could share that I can relate, I will never forget the moment.

17:50That was magical. It was really cool to talk about Pohang because I really did love Pohang. James, tell us a little bit more about growing up in Pohang and what the food was like and some of the other delicacies on the coast. You know, it's on the coast, right? It's on the eastern coast. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a different part of Korea. If you look at Korea as the shape of a tiger, I think there has been some different stories about whether it's a shape of rabbit or a tiger, but I always think it's a tiger. And Pohang is the tail end of it. So we are surrounded by ocean, always easy access to fresh seafood.

18:26so I think one of the things that I miss the most about growing up in Pohang is the easy access of sashimi that we call hué I would just go out to eat my parents my family just had like a weekly outing of eating hué and it was just so fresh and tasty and my mom was somehow connected to all this like uh not so well known places so like we would like drive like an hour away and like we would eat the plate of freshest way that the owner caught earlier today and I don't think any other places in Korea really appreciated the way locals in Pohang did and that's how the whole culture of mul회 which is like the spicy like a sashimi salad thing and like that's like one thing that I don't get at all by living in New York City, I can definitely go to...

19:25Yeah, muhue, like with chojang. You're not getting muhue at all. And also just tank restaurants, which is so common in the pay. And the preparation and the texture. And I think also the whole eating sashimi in Korea is an experience on its own. It's not just a platter of sashimi. You get a platter of head. You get so many different kinds of side dishes. And you always end it with a plate of meyontang with all the fish bones. and it's truly a feast. And by growing up in Pohang, I have just so many memories of like my family celebrating birthday anniversaries at those not so well-known haejip. And that's like the first thing that I look forward to when I visit my family.

20:09Yeah, the haejip is like so different from like the Korean barbecue restaurant that has so many Americans and listeners may associate with Korean cuisine. Hway is such a different, but also iconic in Korea because it is a peninsula. There is a lot of seafood there. And I love that you're talking so beautifully about hae because it's really one of those beautifully only in Korea dishes. Very different from Japan. Very different from fish that you mean. The whole experience of having hae is very unique in Korea. And depending on which part of Korea that you visit, the way they prepare is slightly different.

20:44The type of fish that's available is different. One thing that I haven't really experienced is hongok. I don't know what hongong is in English, but it's like fermented skate. It's skate. So it's fermented skate. It's basically skate that's been thrown into a bucket. Right. It's like very ammonia for taste that people either love it or hate it. And it's usually paired with like a very fermented kimchi and like a slice of like a pork belly for like the triple flavor combination. and that is very popular on the west coast of Korea but not so popular in east coast so I get so excited about learning about Korean food and I only know what I grew up with and like as I get exposed to more of a rich food cultures in different parts of Korea I am happy that you know at least I have this like happy memories of like oh hey and growing up yeah and we have the biggest like market and the east coast sign called jukdo market and just the sightseeing of like raw octopus like crawling on the floor and like the shouting of different prices and yeah it's a cool place i've been there now i want to ask you about korean foods rise in the past decade um it's been meteoric and we just were talking about ariari but like in new york there's a dozen new korean American restaurants.

22:16I think the rise has actually been really rapid in the past three years, basically during the pandemic. And now post-pandemic, we've seen this incredible, this interest in Korean cooking on a global scale. So James, let's give me some thoughts on this living in New York during this time and this rise of Korean food. I feel very blessed to live in New York City and have an access to so many Korean restaurants that are really pushing the boundaries as well. And I think what New York City Korean restaurants are doing is having a perfect balance of keeping some traditions but not being stuck in the tradition.

22:59So when you look at RER, the roots are definitely the flavors and dishes that are popular in Busan. But the type like fried stuffed peppers that are lamb, it's like ground lamb stuffed fried peppers with this yogurt chimichurri sauce. And that is like the perfect harmony of like New York and different influences with like Korean roots in it. And I think a lot of Korean restaurants are also understanding that they're in New York and they kind of have this permission to be more playful with their presentation and different inclusion of like ingredients. So one of the newly opened Korean restaurant called Seoul Salon.

23:43I love that place. It's opened by the team from Attaboy, Chef JP and Elia. And the type of dishes that they offer is so creative in a way. They have anchovy pasta as one of the anju. They have like mala pork belly. So all of those definitely scream Korean, but not like what you will find in like Koreatown in L.A. where it's more tradition. Yeah, I mean, it's like light years behind in a way that's, I think, with full respect. I mean, it's definitely more of that, like, 1980s, 1990s. Yeah. Koreatown and New York is, like, the future. And Seoul is even more the future. Oh, my God, yeah. I mean, when I was in Seoul earlier this year, it's so beautiful to be back there at different stage of my life.

24:29Earlier when I was, like, a student, I never really saw the culture of, like, food and restaurants. So I just went to wherever my parents took me. But now I have my own like palates of what I'm looking for. And I can choose what I want to eat. You got a little bit more money too. And more money to Spurge. And like the diversity of like food and soul. And like I experienced Mingles for the first time. That was true mind-blowing experience of like this is like the fact that Korean food can be presented in such a beautiful way. and can give me this kind of like a luxury experience that I never thought about.

25:12While after that, I can just like go get like a dollar, you know, like chicken on a skewer. And all of that really like make me happy in a way that like in a different way. And they're always like coming up with new trends and new flavor profile. Oh, yeah. Every month. Yeah, every month. Yeah, every month. Yeah, there's like a new flavor combination that like it's never old. So, listener, if you're into this conversation, I hope you are and you're this far. I mean, there's a lot more to be said about Seoul and Dookie Hong in my book. Korea World will be out next spring. And I plan to bring on many from the book into the studio.

25:54James, we'll call this the kickoff for Korea World because it's we went to Seoul several times. And it's man, it's we have a whole section about that. I love following your adventures in Seoul. It's fun. And let's get back to you and hear about some Korean dishes. I got to get a sense. What is your go-to Korean comfort dish for home, for making at home? I think my go-to comfort food is 계란밥, like the egg rice. And that is probably the first dish that I ever learned how to cook. And my mom didn't cook a lot, but she made the best egg rice till now. that something about her like that we call seommat like the hand taste oh yeah that her ratio was just so perfect and the way she mixed it with each grain of rice was amazing and i forgot about it because it's like one of those like oh not like a glorified korean you make it in the microwave uh no i actually i just like mix it with uh like rice yeah but um it's egg and rice yeah but when I gave my chili crisp twist on that.

27:00And like, it was like a crazy experience of tasting who I am now, but with like beautiful nostalgic memories in the past that I felt like that really became a new like go to Korean comfort food now. I love it. A few more Korean questions. So what's your go to Korean dish for a dinner party? I always make jeongol, which is like the Korean casseroles. I think that's very easy to put together because you're basically cooking on the table. All you need to do is just assemble different ingredients. And it's kind of like a stunner slash like a showstopping dish that you're just bringing a large pot of stuff.

27:39And like you can talk and it's kind of communal. And there are so many different kinds of jungle. You can do it with dumplings. You can make it with chicken. and I don't think people really know about this whole culture of Korean casserole out there. Oh, yeah, jungle, like the Korean-style hot pot, you could say, in a way. Yeah, it's fantastic, and it's perfect for dinner. I love that. I love that idea. Yeah. What's the great slept-on Korean dish, meaning it hasn't really been given its time in America that you would love to give it some moments? I think it's gamja-tang, which is a pork bone stew.

28:13like i that i ate a lot of those when i was in korea earlier this year and it's that perilla nutty flavor of the broth and the meat that's like a pork bone so like it's not i think a lot of this is my observation in a way that um a lot of americans are kind of they are scared of do some work to get the meat out we're talking about like fish we're not meeting the bone guys mean and like you really have to like suck the meat out of the bones and like you have to like really get handsy with it but i don't think a lot of them are into that they want it to be like the bone and just like eat easy yeah but you we all know that the meat that's stuck on the bone tastes the best and yeah anyone who knows who's listening to the show i mean ganja tongue is my number one guy like it It's so good.

29:06You know, potatoes, pork, you know, perillus seeds, black pepper, perillus beefs. Even though, like, the name says gamja, which means, like, potatoes. They're, like, potatoes are not the star. The pork bones and the broth. And, like, you add, like, ramen noodles at the end or you make the fried rice at the end. There's, like, a whole three different courses. You can do a jungle. Yeah. You can do, like, so much more than that. And hopefully more restaurants that specialize in gamja tang open in America. Yeah, Hannah will do a gumption restaurant and I'll be like lining up. Hey, man, are you going to write a Korean cookbook?

29:39What's going on? Are you going to do it? I feel like this is my Korean cookbook. Sure. Yeah, because at first, I didn't really think of this as a Korean cookbook. But as I started developing recipes and as I share my Korean chili crisp recipe there, I think this really captures how Korean I am and how I can really infuse my Korean-ness through the lens of Chili Crisp. And I hope this inspires people to look into Korean food and Korean cuisine in a new perspective and hope they can explore on their own. I love that sentiment, how Chili Crisp is also a Korean cookbook as well. So I'm into that, James.

30:22And I feel you've got a bright future with cookbooks. I love your book. Thank you so much. It's wonderful. So back to Chili Crisp, we often forget about the last recipe in a cookbook. And I want to take this time to give yours a shine. So on page 169, there's a recipe for spicy salted caramel chocolate bars. Let's talk about that. I love this idea. Yeah, that was a fun recipe to develop. Dessert chapter in general was a tough challenge for me because, you know, Chili Crisp, a lot of people only think of it as a savory. but it can also be like a dessert forward chili chris. So if you were to apply savory chili chris into dessert recipes, you are not going to get all the dessert flavors because that, you know, black beans or a scallion garlic flavors overpower any sort of sweetness.

31:14So what I did with this was to develop a new chili chris that was specifically designed to go along with desserts. So I stripped down all the savory elements. like garlic and scallion, I just came, I just picked the true elements that make a chili crisp. So chili flakes, salt, sugar, oil, and a variety of nuts. And those nuts really add that like nutty flavors and textures to dessert. And for that last, for that last dessert, I incorporate that into two different layers. I have a spicy caramel layer and I have the chocolate layer that both have a chili crisp in it. And because the sweetness level for caramel and the chocolate ganache are different, when it's like paired with that salty graham cracker layer and when you take that like bite of three different things, three different textures, it's truly like heaven in your mouth that I got so excited.