279: Adeena Sussman

0:28This episode is brought to you by Resi and American Express. I mean, kugel is the Jewish casserole, basically, you know, and, you know, I've had cranberry crunch kugels. I've had butternut squash. I've had just I've had everything kugled that can be kugled. But really, to me, like, you know, the gold standard is a potato kugel.

0:52This is Taste. I'm your host, Matt Rodbard.

0:59Today on the show, I welcome in my friend Adina Sussman, the author of Shabbat, which is honestly one of my favorite cookbooks this fall. We talk about so many things. We talk about Israeli food and Jewish food throughout the world. We talk about some of her favorite recipes, why it's actually worth making cholent and challah and some of the more traditional Jewish recipes. But we also dive into the modern Jewish table and how Shabbat reflects this beautiful time to bring together family, friends, food. I love this conversation and I hope you enjoy it.

1:38Adina Sussman, welcome to This Is Taste. Thank you for having me. My God, I can't believe this is the first time we've done it in the studio. You were at Books Are Magic a couple years ago. Can you believe four years ago? Four years since your last book. Sababa came out almost four years ago today. And we did a fun event together at Books Are Magic in Brooklyn. And now we're back together. And I've seen you. I saw you in March. I was in Tel Aviv. Yes. I've seen you a few times in the last four years. And that's pretty much an accomplishment with the pandemic sandwiched in there. Well, you know what?

2:08Today's release date, pub date, we're recording in early September. Holy cow. Congratulations. Thank you so much. It's so nice to be here on pub day in New York City and to hold this heavy child in my hands. Yeah, well, we'll get into Shabbat, the book, and it's a beautiful book. It's a bit of a continuation from Shabbat. So for fans of Shabbat, definitely pick it up. Hit that buy button, you know. Makes a great gift. Jewish holidays coming up. Doesn't it, though? Christmas, Hanukkah, everything coming up. Yeah. Let's get into Shabbat. I'd like to, for any listener who might not know exactly what Shabbat is, I think we definitely just need to define it.

2:48Sure. Shabbat is the traditional Jewish day of rest that begins on Friday night at sundown and goes until Saturday night at sundown. And it's sort of the weekly organizing principle of Jewish life. It's about relaxation, about taking time with your family, communing. It has a spiritual aspect. And of course, a lot of it is about food. Right. It's an absolute food tradition. And I wanted to first ask you about the traditions of Shabbat in different parts of the world. I think that's the cool thing about this book is you're based in Israel. You live in Tel Aviv, but, you know, you grew up in California and lived throughout the country.

3:25Tell me what, you know, let's first up, let's get into Shabbat in like Tel Aviv. What is Shabbat like when you're starting to get to sundown on Friday night? Sure. I mean, what's really fun about observing Shabbat in Israel is that the entire country observes it in one way or another. There are as many ways to observe Shabbat as there are people in Israel. And growing up in Palo Alto, we did it one way. But in Israel, Shabbat is almost like a national holiday for the 80 percent of the population that is Jewish. The other 20, 21 percent is Arab or Palestinian. And it always starts with a Shabbat dinner on Friday night.

4:02That is kind of the, you know, the peak event of Shabbat. And pretty much everyone does one, you know, either with family or with friends. And there's a lot of other stuff that happens on Shabbat, but it all centers around that dinner. And beforehand, the entire country kind of slows down, takes a deep breath. As we all know, life in Israel is kind of like a contact sport. So it's really a time for people to unwind, take a step back and sort of relax themselves. In Tel Aviv, that often involves taking a dip in the ocean before we light the Shabbat candles, having friends over for a drink on our porch.

4:37Yeah. And, you know, and of course, for the half of Israel that is more religious, there is a prayer element and, you know, certain rituals that go along with it as well. So it means a lot of different things to a lot of people. But it's about the concept of Shabbat is about making a break between the week and the weekend, however you choose to do that. Yeah. It's the fact that it's like a national event. Yeah. So everyone is able to, we'll use the word unplug a little bit, even though technically you don't have to. But the idea that you can hang out with your friends and family and not worry about certain external, like our weekends in America when we're not doing Shabbat for those who don't, it's like very chaotic.

5:20Very scheduled, very packed. Yeah. Yeah. The way I like to think about it is everyone that you need to be around at that moment is with you wherever you are. And so put your phone away, stay focused on that person and the experience that you're having with those friends or family and the food that's on the table. Don't worry, there will be time later for texts and TV and all the other things. So it's really an in-the-moment experience. I think that's another way of sort of framing the unplug thing is about being in the moment. Unplugging but then tuning back into what's going on right now. In front of you.

5:58Yes. And there's no better way to be in the moment than in your kitchen. Absolutely. And your book is offering recipes that I will say firmly, you don't have to be Jewish to like these recipes. No. This is from one of America's best recipe developers, you. I mean that. Thank you. You really are. I mean, you're just such a great recipe developer. Thank you. You're welcome. And I think that, yeah, if you're Jewish, this is a great thing to have because there are some holiday recipes. But also if you're thinking about like hanging out on the weekend or even during the week and you want some some really just like smart recipes, this is the book.

6:34Yeah. I mean, you know, when you say Shabbat Shalom to someone in Israel, you're wishing them a good weekend. Yeah. It has as much a cultural construct and connotation as a spiritual or religious one. And the recipes in this book are for everybody. Some of them are inspired by either the recipes that I was making as a child or Jewish tradition or certain fun prescriptions of cooking that we can talk about that led the development of certain types of Shabbat cooking. But really, I mean, you know, who doesn't want to make like a giant stew that you put together 16 hours before and then just open the next day or incredible challah or tons of salads or lots of things that you can kind of prep in advance, room temperature and, you know, serve, just lay out on the table.

7:18Who doesn't want to roast a chicken with stone fruit? Who doesn't want to roast a chicken with za 'atar? You know, you have a whole chicken section. Figs. Figs. Let's go there. Yeah. We'll talk about recipes and we will dig into some of the Shabbat recipes. But first, I think it's an important question. I would like to hear your take. I've never asked you this, I don't think. The difference between Israeli food and Jewish food. Sure. I think Israeli food is food that is part of a lexicon that was created both by the local traditions, both Jewish and Arab slash Palestinian that have been around for hundreds or thousands of years, along with the dozens and dozens of immigrant groups that form Israeli culture and society.

8:03There have been people in Israel from other places for a long time, but the bulk, bulk of people living in Israel came in a couple of waves, but most of them came after 1948 when the modern state was founded. and with that came traditions from Morocco, from Syria, from Egypt, from Libya, from France, from the United States, from Ethiopia, you know, and everyone, these are people who've been cooking these recipes in their homelands for hundreds, if not thousands of years. So they brought those things to Israel and helped create that. Now, when you ask an Israeli what Jewish food is, they're going to refer to all of this sort of, as we like to now say, Ashkenormative classics, Ashkenazi being Eastern European.

8:50So if you say, oh, I'm really craving Jewish food, they'll think you're talking about chopped liver, gefilte fish, matzo ball soup, kugel, and all those things. So Jewish food in Israel is more Ashkenazi, Eastern European food, and Israeli food is that mishmash fusion blend of immigrant and local traditions. I love it. Let's go talk about pre-Shabbat in another community. I think that like the religious community at B 'nai Brak, like I'd like to get a sense because you have these vignettes within the book about how Shabbat and like the ramp up to Shabbat is celebrating around the world. Yeah. What's that like?

9:26You know, I wanted to show the depth and breadth of life experience in Israel. I think people, you know, even myself, now I've lived there for the better part of a decade. until you're there on the ground. You have certain ideas about who lives there, what they do, who the population is. And so I wanted to feature both rigorously observant Jews and also secular Jews because a large part of the country is not religious. And I think a lot of people don't even realize that. So the B 'nai B 'rach section, B 'nai B 'rach is an ultra-Orthodox sort of suburb slash city right next to Tel Aviv. It's where Coca-Cola is bottled.

10:08Yeah. And, you know, it's one of the most densely populated per square meter places in the world, actually. And you kind of feel like you're going back in time. You know, people are dressed very traditionally. They're very traditional foods. And on Thursday nights, you can do sort of a Shabbat food tour where people are both buying and eating these traditional foods until long into the night. And Dan Perez, my amazing photographer, and I went one night and did sort of a traditional Shabbat food crawl, met some local people, went with a guide. And it really it's kind of there's buzzing within a really exciting and unique energy, but a very different energy than other late Thursday night energies that that you would find in Tel Aviv, just like 10, 12 miles away.

10:56Really fascinating. And I get it. I want to get a sense of when you're shopping. and does it feel like a mad rush at times? You're rushing against the clock when you're trying to make it to sundown? I think the difference in Israel is that Friday is not a work day. So Thursday night is when our weekend officially starts. Thursday night is a big going out night because a lot of people stay home or with their families on Friday night and Saturday is already a work night, a school night basically because the week starts on Sunday. So Friday, yes, people are running errands and trying to get all their bills paid and do all those administrative things in the morning.

11:30And then, yes, shopping in the afternoon and cooking. But it's definitely better, more optimal than the American model where you're working till 5 p.m. and then running home and trying to get dinner together. Oh, my gosh. Right. There's a little bit of a wind down. Yeah. So, you know, for me, I like to, you know, I get up, I go to Cafe Tamati, my coffee joint, my home away from home. Been there with you, I believe. Yeah, it's the best. Yeah, they're great there. And then I'll wind my way through the Shook and sort of pick up what looks local and great and seasonal along with things that I have on, you know, my punch list or things I want to buy.

12:03And then if I'm in a full day cooking mood, I'll kind of like set up at home, tell friends that I'm around and people will just pop in and out when they're at the Shook, either reveling because there are tons of restaurants and bars on Friday also that people hang out at or have brunch or shopping. and people will come over, they'll have a drink, they'll have some cold brew, take a load off and hang out with me while I'm cooking. And then I sort of just sort of wind my way into the late afternoon, early evening. And then within the, you know, the day of Shabbat, what's your day like then? It can really vary.

12:35My husband Jay and I, we stay home a lot. Yeah. I love being home on the weekend and I far prefer to entertain than to be entertained. I just love, you know, it doesn't my meals are often centered around like one like nice large format protein or dish and then a few salads around it and like a simple dessert. So, you know, for me, staying home is a luxury, you know, and being able to have friends over and envelop people in my style of hospitality. Yeah, your cool home and space. Thank you. And just featured in the book. And I get a sense that when I read the book, it is an entertaining book in some ways.

13:16And there are, I think you give insight into formatting these meals. And I think that's really cool about the book. But I also want to release people from having any preconceived notions about what a Shabbat dinner looks like or what entertaining is. You know, I've been thinking a lot about that as in the lead up to the release of the book. And what I realized is that ideally Shabbat cooking should meet the cook where they're at that week. You know, it could be, you could decide that you want to pull out all the stops and do like a super elaborate meal. So you have the energy, the time and the resources to do that.

13:51But if you decide, recently my nephew was in Israel and he was supposed to go to my father for Shabbat in Jerusalem and fell through at the last minute. And I really wanted him to see all of our friends who love him. So at 10 a.m. there was no Shabbat meal and by 8 p.m. we had 13 people over. Yeah, amazing. But I made – and I was – I had a lot of plans that day. So I allotted to myself 4 to 7.30 to make the dinner. And you know what? It got done. Yeah, you really busted it out. I busted it out, but I also set realistic expectations for myself and also like allowed myself for that to be the meal that I could make in that amount of time.

14:31and then be totally happy with it. What were you doing that day? Wow, we had vegetarians. So I did like a preserved lemon and honey glazed tofu. I think I did the shredded vegetable kugel from the Shabbat book. I did roast chicken, obviously a cocktail because I always do some kind of a cocktail for dinner, homemade challah. I put up the dough in the morning and then as long as you get the dough done early enough in the day, Like it's really not a, it's not, it's not a drama. Let me ask you why you have a whole section about challah, which is cool because I think bread is such a fascination for home cooks and bakers.

15:10Yeah. But, you know, we also have a lot of great bakeries in our hometowns. Many of us go and buy a challah, but like, why is it worth making a challah? I mean, I think the, the process from hand kneading to seeing it come out of the oven is just super satisfying. It's usually, I mean, I'm not saying it's better because there are so many incredible bakeries, but I sort of like nurturing the dough along as the day goes on. It's very simple making challah. It's not like sourdough. There's not much to... I love that. There's not much to babysit, you know? And, you know, my recipe has a little turmeric in it to give it a golden color.

15:47It has lots of eggs to give it richness. It's a little sweeter than the recipe that was in Sababa, which was really popular. And also you just take the basic challah dough and do all kinds of fun things with it. I have mini braided challah breadsticks in the book. I have a meringue topped challah, which is a little bit radical. And I'm looking forward to seeing who makes that. Never seen it before. How do you think, is that a final course, dessert course? You know, I grew up Orthodox Jewish and Orthodox Jews like sweet food. So there's a trend for like challah covered in like a streusel topping and people don't eat it for dessert.

16:20No, it's like right up there with the chicken. You know, I say have a little bit with dinner and then like the next morning, like have that with salted butter. Like to me, that's like a dream. That's living the dream. So, Adina, I want to talk about some recipes in this book and also some like big ideas. And I know you do feature, you know, soaking chickpeas for hummus in the book. But also you have a way of making hummus with canned chickpeas. I do. Super easy to source. What is that? I mean, I just drain the chickpeas. I save the chickpea liquid, which is also known as aquafaba. And then we just blend it up with trina and some of that aquafaba and just some really simple, you know, seasoning elements and blend it for a long time.

17:07I mean, hummus doesn't have any gluten in it, so you're not going to over process it. And, you know, I always say that if you if the choice is not cooking or making something with canned chickpeas, like go for it. And also they're an amazing product. I mean, you know, fresh soaked and cooked chickpeas are wonderful, but canned chickpeas are not, you know, they're not a fallback ingredient. They're like, I'd say an equal. And also they're really, you know, the nice thing about them is they're cooked under pressure and they're seasoned. So like they have salt blasted into them. So like a lot of times chickpeas already have flavor in them.

17:42Yeah, they're already, we've had them all on our salad. Yeah, if you're not getting the no sodium kind, which is fine. But, you know, if you're just getting regular, that's how I, you know, even when I cook chickpeas in the Instant Pot, I put tons of salt in there. And that's the same process as buying canned chickpeas. So, yeah. And then that aquafaba liquid, when you add some of it, it adds like fluffiness and volume to the hummus as well. Have you cooked with Hay Day? Do you know that canning brand? No. It's really, they have like seasoned chickpeas with harissa. Oh, nice. It's a really good, and I don't think it has aquafaba in it, but it has like a sauce already.

18:13Okay, yum. I'll give it a try. I don't know, it just came to mind. but soaking is great too. Soaking is great and you know in Israel there are two types of chickpeas there are chickpeas for salads and chickpeas for hummus and the hummus chickpeas are from mostly from Bulgaria and their variety is called hadas and the skins are very thin and they're the chickpeas are small so there's not you don't have to do that some people you know like to skim out the skins or even hand it can be a little bit of a process to skin I'm not there's a Yiddish term called pochki, which means like fussing in the kitchen.

18:46I'm not a pochkier. So like you will not find me individually popping chickpeas out of their shells. Yeah. I'm not doing that. Let's talk about Trina tahini. What's the best way to think about it? I mean, it's not all created equally, right? It's not. I mean, obviously it should only be made with 100 % chickpeas. 99 % of the good tahini in Israel is made with sesame seeds from Ethiopia, from Humira and typically made by Arabs and Palestinians and bought by Jews. And it's one of those examples of cultural and culinary commercial coexistence that happens every day. Everyone has their favorite brands.

19:27There are some, even the good American brands are made in Israel or, you know, Zoom or Palestine, Zoom. And then in Israel, there are like some great brands that people turn to again and again. There's Al-Ars, there's Har Bracha, there's the one with the dove. There are so many and there are new ones all the time, you know, but there are some that are better than others. And one of the things that distinguishes good tahina is the sesame seeds are soaked in salt water. Wow. I didn't know that. No way. It helps release the inner hull from the outer part and then it's run through a centrifuge to remove that outer shell.

20:06And so if you're not doing whole tahini, which most tahini is not in Israel. It's mostly that inner hull. So also the best tahina is kind of pre-seasoned with salt. It's one of those little dirty little secrets that people don't realize. And also it's about how deeply it's roasted. Yeah. The color can be different coming out of the white bottle. I think you get definitely darker ones. Really fascinating. There's a lot of tahina in this book. You know, I wrote a tahina cookbook. There are so many tahina recipes. You did? Like the short stack? Yeah. Yeah. I love that. There's so many tahina recipes in Zababa.

20:37And as much as I tried to get away from it in this book. Like I'm already, it's day one and I'm already seeing the thing that's kind of bubbling up as the shake and tahina iced coffee. Oh, somebody already like did a post. People are just talking about it. People who got the book in advance, people are making it. I love that. You have a baby viral recipe already and it's like literally hour like 14. Nascent. Nascent is great. Now, Kugel. So, okay, a whole chapter about Kugel, Jews around the world know Kugel as a Passover food, right? Or a break fast Yom Kippur food. Or a break fast. And then noodle pudding with the cottage cheese.

21:15Good point. Break fast. It was more Passover in my household, but it is a great break fast. But those are only two nights of the year. And you're proposing that Kugel is a year-round event. I mean, in my home growing up, Kugel was a weekly event. That's cool. In most Orthodox Jewish homes, it is. And specifically potato kugel. I mean, kugel is the Jewish casserole, basically. You know, and, you know, I've had cranberry crunch kugels. I've had butternut squash. I've had just, I've had everything kugled that can be kugled. But really, to me, like, you know, the gold standard is a potato kugel. Really?

21:54Not egg noodle? No. I mean, I just. I love it. There's nothing like a really beautifully, perfectly baked potato kugel that has a latke-level, crispy exterior and a souffle-level, creamy interior with lots of eggs, a really generous amount of salt and oil. That's some food science right there. How do you make it work? How do you do it? You squeeze the liquid out of the potatoes. You grate the potatoes and the onions together to keep them snowy white. you put oil in the casserole dish and heat it for 10 to 15 minutes before you pour the batter in. And then you spoon some of the hot oil over the top and then you just let it go for like two hours.

22:39You know, my recipe calls for four and a half pounds of potatoes and it has six eggs in it. Wow, that's amazing. And half a cup of oil or maybe more. It's really like a potato pudding. And the crunch, the contrast of the crunch, the creamy and the crunchy, And it's just I made a huge one last week to film for for a partnership that I'm doing for the book. Idaho potato. It was gone. You know, it was just devoured with it. And also it's it's vegetarian. Yeah. You know, I like noodle kugel. But also in a kosher home, you wouldn't do the noodle kugel with the dairy in it at a meat meal. So, you know, my mother actually made one that had pineapple and raisins.

23:22You're talking, that's me right there. So good. Canned pineapple, obviously. Obviously. Only. I mean, why go fresh when you got the canned? Oh, yeah. Obviously. So you've got like five recipes? Yeah. Seven recipes, some of that? Five kugels, yeah. I could have done more. But, you know, the matzo kugel is really good. And also my mother's vegetable kugel kind of alludes to my California childhood. You know, we always have a lot of zucchini and carrots around. And it's really sweet. And someone who tested the recipe for the book said, like, when you eat the leftovers, it almost tastes like a torta espanol.

23:59Yeah, I get that. You can have it at, like, room temperature. Room temp. In a sandwich. Stuff that in a pita. I like your style there. Stuff it in a pita. Put it in a pita. Okay. So what is it about Jiu's quest to find a nice piece of fish? I mean, I think fish is—sorry? You know what I'm talking about, right? No. You don't know this whole thing. Okay. So I feel like growing up, my relatives between my mother's mother, like relatives, my Jewish family. It was like when there's like three or four or five options of a restaurant. Oh. The idea. Like a nice piece of fish. Would be like, I'm just feeling like a nice piece of fish.

24:40Now, this is translated to my wife's family, too. I mean, it probably has to do with at least where our families came from. You know, the scarcity. You know, we're talking carp land, you know, gefilte fish, lake fish at best, you know. So I think fish is luxury. And also for, again, like sort of alluding back to kosher dietary laws, like you could eat a piece of fish relatively safely if you were kosher and kind of feel like you were still keeping the, you know, observing the rules. And we definitely did the nice piece of fish thing in my family. My mother made fish once a week also. So thank you for being game for that question.