280: Sue S. Chan

0:28This episode is brought to you by Resi and American Express. I think food products are really the only way to be extremely scalable in restaurants, right? Because fortunately, unfortunately, dining out or eating at a restaurant is the last thing that you can't download, right? Like you can literally download everything else, like music, films, everything, but you can't download a restaurant experience. This is Taste. I'm your host, Matt Rodbard.

0:59Sue Chan is an expert marketer, brand builder, and all-around busy bee on the global food scene. She was Momofuku's first brand director, and in this episode, we go back to her time helping to build the David Chang empire. Sue later founded her own agency, Care of Chan, which has become a go-to for major fashion and retail brands looking to engage in the food world. Her current clients include A24, New York Times Cooking, Nike, and J.Crew. This conversation is fast and furious, but we always pause when Sue has a restaurant to talk about or an opinion to give. I so enjoyed catching up with a real food world one of one.

1:43Sue Chan, welcome to This Is Taste. What's up, Matt? How's it going? Great to see you. I really, it's nice connecting. We, you and I have worked together, I think, like maybe almost 20 years on stories. Yes, yes. And I feel like that was such a different era of food, and so many things have changed since then, which it's crazy that so much has changed and evolved in just 20 years. Yeah, 3X, 4X. I mean, it's changed like five times. It's like five lifetimes that we've lived. I want to ask you, you live in Los Angeles now. You lived in New York for almost 20. So when you returned to New York, as you are here now, where are you going?

2:14What are you hitting up spots-wise? Oh, gosh. I have to admit, I find the new restaurant scene very overwhelming. there's always so many new restaurants to hit um but i always revert back to the og spots um i go to od on a lot actually yesterday i went there um for a late solo lunch um at the bar just had a tuna burger the side salad read my book yeah it was amazing what's the book um a friend just gifted me andre agassi's autobiography called open yeah which oh my goodness first chapter in i was like It's a wild book. It's a wild book. It's a wild book. I've read it. Yeah, it's good. It's so good.

2:52They need to make it into a film, but I heard that he refuses to let anyone do that. It's a really good, that's a great, what a choice. Also, the U.S. Open is happening right now. Exactly. I'm a big tennis fan. I played juniors when I was younger, so tennis can play. What was your highest ranking? Oh, gosh. It's so funny because when I was in high school compared to all the other kids that I played with, because I grew up in Southern California, and Southern California is one of the most competitive tennis junior regions. and I was pretty bad. But in comparison, all my friends now who have just picked it up, I'm like really, really good.

3:26But in San Diego, my highest ranking was 13. In SoCal, which is like a huge region, my highest ranking was like 97. Like national. That's amazing. And so were you recruited to play Division I? You know what? I got burnt out by senior year of high school and opted to not play. I also didn't want, you know, when you play in college, the sport just kind of runs your life. Yeah, it's not fun. Okay, so Odeon, back to that question. Yeah, Odeon, what else are you going to? You know what? I love all of Ignacio Matos' restaurants. The food is just so delicious, and I really love it because of the vibe.

4:06You always bump into people, and that's why I love going out to restaurants. Ultra Paradiso, dining room, got to love it. Yes, always bumping into people. It feels like you're part of the community when you're there. It's yeah, it's just really nice feeling. OK, so going back, I was like creeping on your LinkedIn and I saw this fun thing. You said back in 2006, you worked at the Spotted Pig and it says, quote unquote, worst kitchen extern ever. That's really. Tell me about that. Yes, it was definitely a wild time. And it's also crazy how things have turned out for that restaurant. But yes, I was the worst kitchen extern ever.

4:44So it was during college, my senior year, I was just working on my thesis, which was actually about food. I wrote my thesis about the food deserts of New York City and comparing and contrasting what was available in East Harlem versus the Upper East Side and whatnot. Anyway, so my last semester, I was just working on that and I had some free time. So I went to new school for a cooking class because I think the teacher thought I saw some potential in me. sent me up with an externship at the Spotted Pig. So I worked there for about a month in the kitchen. Just during the day as a prep cook, I was, I don't know if you ever knew the layout of the Spotted Pig, but the main kitchen is, you know, in the first floor of the restaurant and then the prep kitchen is in the basement.

5:28Yeah. There's, and they're always running up and down those stairs. Oh my goodness. Yes. Yeah. I remember that. So one, if you had every single day, I would make the lemon tart and the devils on horsebacks. And so if you ever had the lemon tart during that era and it was runny it was probably my fault because I never like the curd never would ever get as solid as I wanted it to um so I apologize for anyone who oh my gosh during that era but this one time when I was making devils and horsebacks um it was um food bank for New York City has an annual gala and uh April was providing the food for that and so I made like 300 devils on horsebacks and i was making them upstairs and bringing them downstairs into the prep kitchen this is going yeah and so as i like rounded that corner down the stairs the entire tray of like 300 devils on horsebacks just like fell all around the ground downstairs i know april was also right there at the bottom of the stairs the devils bounced down the stairs you could you like reuse it no i mean no it was it was done i thought about it for a second but then april was right there and i mean obviously we could have there's no two second rule in restaurants no no no no no especially not down the stairs yeah down the hatch of a new right well you stayed in restaurants and you stayed for a while you're still in restaurants but you also care of chan your agency works on events but you're always food adjacent and you have obviously real passion for food you have great taste in restaurants and you're just really a great collaborator in this in the world of food and what we do i've worked with you when you're a publicist But I came to know you.

7:02You worked at Momofuku. You were the brand director. How long? I was at Momofuku for almost seven years. I mean, and you were there at Momofuku when that shit was being made. I know. Oh, man. I feel like such an old person calling it the golden era. But it was the golden era of the restaurant group, but also just the dining in general. Oh, my gosh. What an era, right, Matt? We were a part of that. You were. I actually saw Amanda Clute at a party a couple months ago and we were talking about that era and just how different it is. I mean, that was a time when there was like a nucleus to food, when monoculture still existed just in everyday life.

7:39You know, monoculture no longer exists and it's all about niche culture now. But what a time. I mean, that was definitely the restaurant renaissance. I mean, it was because of that era, Tony Bourdain, all those chefs, Rene Renzepi, Dave Chang, of course, that kind of spearheaded this whole movement towards people actually caring about food and America actually growing a food culture. I mean, the reason why everyone is so obsessed with food right now is because of that era. And, you know, being at Moafuku, it was the epicenter of that. And, you know, movements don't happen in a silo. They happen because everything is bubbling up.

8:17But I would say because Dave was very much a spokesperson of that era, it was it was a really exciting place to be. How do you tell David Chang what to do? I feel like that's an impossible task. But so you clearly figured it out. You know what? I would say that my time at Momofuku, it's funny because when I left Momofuku, I started a PR and talent management agency. But I would say when I was at Momofuku, I really wasn't a traditional publicist. I was more of a gatekeeper, you know, as things were coming in and offers were being presented and whatnot. It was a lot of figuring out, is this the right opportunity for Dave?

8:57Is the right opportunity for Momofuku? And just making sure that our story was told and it was told well. It was told to the right people and by the right people. How much were you thinking about brand versus meaning Momofuku brand versus growing David Chang brand and knowing that there'd be a trickle down effect if Chang was big? Your book would be full at Momo. but those are two separate tasks, right? Yeah, it's funny because I, when I was, so my background when I was growing up, like all the internships I did and whatnot was always in like advertising and marketing related fields. But I never knew what that meant in a restaurant setting.

9:34But once I got there, you know, as I was modeling my career off of other people, I wasn't modeling my career off of other food people. I was modeling my career off of other people in the marketing advertising space. And I actually literally made up my title brand director. And it's funny because now I see all these people with the title brand director in the restaurant space. And I don't think that existed before I kind of gave myself that title. But yeah, I think it was just because of my background and where I came from and what I was interested in. I was always very curious about how to position stories and POVs in order to appeal to the target audience that we were going after.

10:18Yeah, and you were going after influencers before they were even called then, I'm sure. You wanted to get people into the building who would tell their friends. Like Ruth Reichel, who was like the biggest Momofuku fan, it seems. You know what's so funny? Like, you know, obviously now I am still in the marketing space and I read a lot about the industry and take a lot of like courses on my own and read lots of books about it. And a lot of people I follow are in the marketing space. But I wouldn't say that during my time there we were so methodical about it. It was more just Dave had a really strong point of view.

10:54And it was just about making sure that we controlled that message and that that message was consistent in everything that we did. But it wasn't so methodical where we were like, Ruth, let's get her in. It was more just like we genuinely respected her and wanted her to be in the restaurant, you know. And also Dave was really focused on making sure that the product was really good. And I think that that should always be your main priority as talent is making sure that your product is good because that will always – that cream will always rise to the top. Yeah. A couple of innovations that Momo kind of pioneered early on, one was like the reservation system, which was a fucking nightmare if you tried to look at the restaurant.

11:39Oh, my God. It's so funny because – so when I first started at Momofuku, I was a chef assistant slash office manager. Yeah. And oh, my goodness, I did everything from payroll to taking BOSOM reservations. Yes. Literally in a book. There was a book and we would like take it with a pen, these reservations. And then, of course, the co-reservation system was like online. Yeah. It was, you know, made by Dave's business partner at that time, Drew Salmon's like best friend. Yeah. In Virginia who had like another tech company that had nothing to do with restaurants. He literally built it for us. It's amazing.

12:13And I'm talking shit because it was a nightmare if you tried to book. But man, everyone's copied that format now. Oh my goodness, for sure. Like Rezzy is built on the old Momo. Ben Leventhal is like a huge Momo fan and clearly had some instincts to what to do. Yeah, for sure. Oh my goodness. The other innovation was large format and ticketing out large format and doing the BOSOM dinners as like a ticketed event and all in and all inclusive. But before that, all inclusive was kind of not cool. And obviously you pioneered it, you guys at Momo. Yeah, it's actually funny because I'm surprised we don't see large format meals happening at more restaurants these days because it is, you know, a big reason why we did it is because one, I don't know if you ever noticed this, but all those reservation times were at the shoulder time.

13:00So it was either early bookings or later bookings. And that was because, you know, the restaurant needed to be filled at that time. So one, we were guaranteeing that there would be a large group at the shoulder times. And then it was also like somewhat of a set menu. So you could also guarantee that there was a certain price per head. It's actually from a business perspective, extremely smart. And I'm surprised more restaurants don't do it. I agree. And I mean, the fried chicken two ways is probably my favorite. Oh, my goodness. The best. Which one's your favorite? Oh, I don't. I think the classic Southern.

13:30Yeah. I mean, Fuku, I've had plenty of times at like stadiums and stuff. But I feel like the Southern when it was happening was fire. So good. The Bosaam is still one of my favorite foods ever. Both times, you still eat in the restaurants? So in L.A., I'll go to Major Domo. I've definitely eaten my share of pork buns in my life. Yeah, I'm sure you don't touch those anymore. You've had your share. Oh, man. But yeah, Major Domo, the restaurant, is amazing. I feel like it's just settled into this groove. It's amazing. You're at L.A. restaurant. It's so good. But you know what I used today, which Dave would be proud?

14:04On my avocado toast this morning, I used the chili sauce, the momofuku chili crisp. Let's segue to that. I think that's a great segue because CPG is a huge part of Momofuku. I mean, Chang has divested, essentially. You don't have to get into that because it's private. But I know from hearing and talking to people, he's focusing on media, and he's got his media company, which is cool. Great podcast. When you think about brand, I look at the Rayo's transaction that just happened. And, you know, Rayo's, this small, like, uptown red sauce joint, made one product, a red sauce jarred red sauce, and was able to quickly become a brand that everyone in our country knew about seemingly because it just sold for over$850 million in this transaction.

14:48It's worth a billion. We're talking about going from a small restaurant to this. Sue, tell me about restaurants as brands. I feel like these restaurants are way more valuable than we are kind of presenting. I think of places like Wild Air, places like Prune, places that are small brick and mortar restaurants that have this outsized influence in our culture. Yeah, I mean, I would say everything that Dave built up until this point is the reason why his CPG brand is as successful as it is. I think they just raised$17 million. dollars. And it's funny to think that like he worked his entire career to get to this point where he could essentially probably cash out and retire early because the CPG brand.

15:33It's funny. Some experts think the era of brand is actually dying just because the internet has made everything so accessible that it's so easy to copy anything. And that's, you know, a big thing that's happening in fashion is the fast fashion brands are copying quicker than, you know, the luxury fashion brands can even get their product into stores. And so what does brand mean anymore if you can get the same thing for cheaper? But I think when it comes to restaurants, you know, it's really noisy out there, especially with the Internet. How do you decipher what's good versus what's bad? And I think a brand kind of guarantees that you're going to get a certain level of quality.

16:14you know we can trust that Dave's CPG product his chili crisp his instant noodles are going to be of a certain caliber because that's what he comes from like he has trained he has won all the awards and all that and so I think brand is more and more important as just everything gets so much noisier and that's what we're going to gravitate towards or if for instance you know the reason why a Starbucks is so successful is because if you're in any airport or in any small town, you know if you go to Starbucks, you're going to get a certain caliber of product and you don't have to go search for the good stuff.

16:55Yeah. And I think you look at like a brand like Squirrel and you put them into the, you know, into the community and into the world and, you know, you start growing it one skew at a time and it becomes part of the mainstream. and do you feel like this is going to be more of a trend? Do you think that restaurants are going to actually get investment? I mean, you said$17 million for MoMo, but there's probably folks who are really excited to invest in restaurants in this way. Yeah, and I think food products are really the only way to be extremely scalable in restaurants, right? Because unfortunately, unfortunately, dining out or eating at a restaurant is the last thing that you can't download.

17:39Right. Like you can literally download everything else like music, films, everything. But you can't download a restaurant experience. But because of that, it's also not extremely scalable. Right. And so the only way to scale it is through products. And I do hope, you know, restaurateurs do focus on that in order to grow their businesses. But it's also not an easy business, right? It's not the same as running a restaurant. And it's funny. Remember when fast casual was like the it thing and literally every chef started their own fast casual concept and then all of them died? They all died. I mean, Chang had one die as well.

18:15I mean, they all died. Yeah, exactly. And the fuku is still around. Well, yeah, fuku. But it was maple. Maple, yeah. Yeah, I mean, because these are hard businesses. The CPG industry is so different than running a restaurant. And a fast casual restaurant is not the same thing as running like a fine dining or even a medium level restaurant. It's just a different business. And and so, yeah, I think, you know, yes, it's a really amazing way for chefs to grow their reach and to scale their businesses in an industry that's very difficult to scale. But they should find the right partners to help them do that because it's a whole nother business.

18:53but I think what's exciting about chefs exploring that is, you know, 20 years ago, none of this existed and I would love all of my CPG products and everything in my pantry to be restaurant grade quality products, right? And so I think it's incredible and I hope it happens. Yeah. And the consumers are willing to pay the price too. Exactly. Because these are small luxuries, you know, paying, you know,$7 for a jar of pasta sauce instead of$3.99. Not everyone can do that, of course, but many folks can. And if it's better. We want to eat better as a culture. Yeah, absolutely. And I think people now care so much about what they eat.

19:30It's, you know, not only for taste, but also it's a bit of a status symbol, right? It's like it's and that's why I think the restaurant industry grew as fast as it is, because it kind of happened at the same time that the Internet and Instagram was happening. Social media, for sure. Oh, absolutely. And I think the bragging rights of showing that you went to this restaurant and got this hot reservation is a big reason why the industry grew as fast as it did. And I think that kind of standard of living will start trickling into your everyday life. Back to the New York question. Where else are you going on your trip?

20:06I just want to get I don't want to like forget this question. Yeah, it's got to be more spots having lived here for 20 years. You're going to hit up. Oh, the original. I mean, I always hit up Ross and Daughters too. Baltazar is great for meetings. Yeah. Like a breakfast meeting situation. But you know what? This trip, because there have been so many new restaurants, I'm trying to make my rounds. I'm going to go to Libertine. I just went to Raph's. Going to check out Soul Station. Yeah. Real cool. Soul Station and Raph's are both great places. Yeah. Sue, let me ask you, what advice can you give new food talent on how they can become the next David Chang?

20:48New food talent on how they can become the next David Chang. I mean, I'm like, is the goal to become famous? Is the goal to become influential? Is the goal to make a living? You know what? When I left Momofuku and started my own agency, I did literally have a chef, whose name shall remain nameless, who I think he was joking, but, you know, there's truth to every single joke. He was like, can you just make me as famous as David Chang? Wow. I know, I know, LOL. Awkward pause. Yeah, I mean, I would say one thing that I wish I saw more these days is I feel like, do you know that scene in The Devil Wears Prada when Meryl Streep's character, who's like the Anna Wintour character, talks about the blue sweater to Anne Hathaway's characters and how she traces the lineage of that blue and why Anne Hathaway is wearing that and where it came from.

21:55I feel like that person sometimes where... My hope is that when you enter the food industry that you do your research and that you really know and understand the history, especially because we just came off of a really important moment in food, dining, and culinary industry and the culinary industry. And I think if you know that information, you can be such a better creative. Because one, you'll know if your ideas are copying anyone or if they're just iterating off of someone else. But I think it's so important to have that base knowledge of where we came from in order to figure out where we're going.

22:34But I think back to what I was saying about monoculture, It's just going to be so hard. I don't think we're going to see someone as influential as Dave Chang in like a really long time. It's just with monoculture not existing and it being about niche culture. Yeah. It's just and also food having hit the zeitgeist as it has. Like it's going to take another big pendulum swing before something. Goes that mainstream. We see David Chang or the new David Chang on Super Bowl ads as a chef. Yeah, I mean, I'm not saying that there's not going to be someone as famous as Dave Trump. Like, absolutely. But it's just like, you know how hip hop was kind of like the last moment when a new music was invented, essentially, as they say?

23:22Like, yes, we're going to still see stars in food and people probably as bigger and more famous. And, you know, the bear couldn't have existed 20 years ago, and now it does. like we're definitely going to still see important things happening big and important things happening but as far as like changing the way we eat i don't think that that's gonna happen for a while i mean not not in a major way like when the pendulum sink like that that moment was a huge swing in the pendulum it was it went from us not caring about what was happening in the back of the house and with chefs to only care the cover of time magazine three chefs i know i mean well that's a whole hot mess of course we don't need to relitigate that but yeah but still that's a moment in history yeah yeah these chefs on this cover of time yeah i uh i hope there's a documentary project about that era that we talk about it needs to be done i know this yeah there's obviously somebody who's gonna do it anyways you're gonna be in it um i know i have so many stories i told christopher the the creator of the bear i was like there needs to be something that happens in the like offices of these restaurants.

24:30Oh, yeah. Well, there's multiple seasons for that show. So I think we share this working thesis and it's a good one. That good food is basically available everywhere. You know, I was just in San Antonio and I had like the most incredible jerk chicken next to a gas station. And you think about modern Korean cooking in New York and LA, but mostly New York. And it's like, you walked on the street and there's like six places that are doing exceptional food. So I think I would like to get your take on what sets the good from the great, what separates the two. And I think talking to you previously and having a little chat ahead of time, there's something about vibes.

25:08There's something that's like intangible, but it's like vibes. And that's a really tricky word because it means a lot. But Sue, tell me what makes these restaurants really, really work that goes outside the culinary? Yeah, I think now that good food can literally be found everywhere, as you just mentioned, And I think what I personally seek out and what I hear my friends seeking out and we can just, you know, also see it in what's popular is that I think good food can be found everywhere. And so what's the next level up? And I think that that's service, that's vibe, that's entertainment. You know, you see restaurants like Harbone.

25:47They do entertainment so well. Right. Because I think a big reason why they have been so successful with their expansion is because they offer an experience. I mean, the food that they're offering is like pretty basic and simple. It's like white sauce, Italian joint. You can find that in other places. Rich might disagree, but still, I agree with you. Yeah, there's they're not reinventing too much there in the corner. No, you feel so special. And the kind of cachet that they've like built around that brand makes you makes it so much more desirable to go. Right. And or like the Nines, that piano bar, I think places like that that offer entertainment on top of the food.

26:25People want an experience because they want to be able to, you know, tell their friends or tell their coworkers or just have a fun night out that they can't normally get in their everyday life. Because, you know, even for your lunch at a fast casual joint, you can get really amazing food. So what do you want when you go out on a Friday night? You want something more than that. And I think also as third places or community centers, as churches kind of fall by the wayside and don't really exist in our culture anymore. I think restaurants become that third place and that become that place where you gather with your community, bump into your community, see people out and about.

27:09I mean, even bars and clubs don't really exist anymore like they used to. You know, clubs can't really survive in New York City anymore because it's too expensive unless you run a bottle service, kind of a club. And, yeah, so I think people are searching for experience and they're searching for community when they go out and dine these days. So, Sue, what's your ideal vibes in a restaurant or a dining space in one of these third spaces that we – I mean, a big reason why I love Odeon is one I love that's been around for like 30 plus years. And just the history. Heritage. That those walls have seen.

27:43Like if those walls could talk. Someone needs to make that documentary telling all the old stories. How many Belushi moments were in that place? Oh my goodness. That's another wrap party's in there. Yeah. Many of them. And also the reason why I love Odeon is because it's so quintessential to New York. It could only exist in New York. Contramar in Mexico City is like one of those restaurants too where it could only exist in Mexico City. Rochelle Canteen River Cafe in London those are restaurants that only exist in that place and their rich history just makes it I don't know as you know it's so hard running a successful restaurant and so if you survive five years that's like a major plus but if you survive like 30 plus like my goodness but the big reason why I love Odeon is because when you go there you will bump into someone you know and that's what's so beautiful and amazing about New York City and what I really miss now that I live in L.A.