281: Andrew Friedman

27:28Which I love because you're not just like focusing on a single dish. You're actually getting into like the creation of the tasting menu, this restaurant, the genesis of wherewithal. Yeah. And we see a menu meeting for the following week. Right. We see the first ideation meeting at like 1230 in the morning after service. Yeah. I love that scene where you're in the back of the glass of wine. You actually have a photo of it. You took some photos along the way. Yes. I love that. So, but, you know, just pretty much straight interviewing and then a lot of questions about process and technique. And then at night I had a spot that they identified where I could stand.

28:05And I watched, I just watched the whole night of service all week. One night I came in for dinner. But otherwise I was watching, just watching, taking notes. It's something I've done a lot. Yeah. I took some videos with my iPhone. Yep. Beautiful reporting tool. I did a lot of timing. I did a lot of timing. Like when did the snacks drop? When did the bread drop? You know, so I knew I wanted the pacing of the storytelling to be accurate. How different was service each night? It was almost exact. That was amazing. Like Saturday night, which was their busiest night since COVID had started, the day the book takes place, they had 90-some covers.

28:47Early in their week, they had maybe nights with 30-something, 40 covers. You know, a deuce, a six-top, it didn't matter. Like, within a minute or two, stuff came out, like, virtually the same every time. The meat course was about 75 minutes in. Wow. Does Bev and Johnny run Expo together, or is it— Well, there's actually a chef de cuisine. Oh, right. You mentioned that. Because they were going to be reopening Parachute, and they have three children and a dog. so Taylor was the one who did most of the expediting but and this is described in the book whenever she was doubling and this is that time you know there weren't enough employees they didn't have a pastry chef so Taylor would be standing at the pass but if she turned around there was a little stainless steel work area and she was plating desserts so if she had to pivot and do dessert than Johnny or Beverly if she was there or Jose Villalobos, who technically was a server there but was in his normal life the GM of Parachute, but Parachute was closed, so he was helping out, or Jessica Line, who was the actual GM.

30:01These are all people who were deputized to jump in and expedite. It's so cool to hear you talk about the characters in the book, like, in this form. And listen, if you watch that certain television show, you will recognize some parallels here. There's characters, there's people with real backstories who come together for that four to eight hour service, however long it is. It's remarkable. And did you have a sense that there'd be this pop culture moment around back of house when you were writing this book? Oh, zero. No, no. I'm glad it was television and not the written word because I was working on a, I think I talked about it here, I was working on a script with a friend of mine, and our whole angle was, in addition to the story, we're going to be the first people who get it right, right?

30:50So now that card has been played. Wait, how's it going? No, it's—we've had to—I had to pause it because I'm so—I have too much going on. Yeah, and this is, like, very—I mean— But I just had to let go of anything I wasn't contracted for. Right, no, it's a many numbers game. For a time, for a time. But then the other thing I did with the book is I came back to the Midwest two and a half weeks later and I had lined up interviews at all the farms. So if you take, you know, Central Chicago as your starting point or as like the center of a wheel, everything was between 45 minutes and three hours. so um i went down to slagle which is two hours the meat company which is two hours south of the city um there i did an overnight in michigan that's when i went to wincroft vineyards and to butternut sustainable farms which is also in michigan and then um and then from chicago i went up to nickels farms twice because that's also where i met the driver one morning in addition And on another day, I interviewed the patriarch of the farm and then and then Smith's farm, which is mostly an herb farm right on the border of Illinois and Indiana.

32:11Wow. It's cool that you broke up the reporting and did it that way. It seems really tactical. I want to zoom out a little bit and ask you, Andrew, what interests you in the chef, the capital T, capital C, the chef? It seems from your work, writing several nonfiction works, you wrote about chefs in the 80s and 70s. You also have written 20-plus cookbooks, co-written 20-plus cookbooks. Did I round up? Did I round down? It's like more like 30, if I'm honest. But yeah, cookbooks and memoirs as a collaborator. But a lot of the work revolves around the chef. What interests you in the chef? I mean, part of it to me, and this is, I think, less true than when I first got around it.

32:53And I don't have a better comparison, so I'll date myself, you know, but I think part of it is kind of the Fonzie, Richie Cunningham dynamic, you know, like I was this nerd who somehow, for whatever reason, got along with all these people I perceived as just, you know, being cooler than I was. I stumbled into this world as a PR guy. This was not something I grew up – I loved restaurants always, always. I didn't have any particular interest in cooking. I didn't have any particular interest in the people in the kitchen, you know, any of that. And then I had a PR job and all of a sudden I was I developed a lot of friendships.

33:32And then one of those friendships led to a book collaboration. Which one was the first one? It was the first person I ever ghosted for was Alfred Portali in the heyday of the Gotham Bar and Grill because he was my client. Yeah. And I would help him if he had to write a speech or write a letter. And I mean, that's a form of ghost writing. I didn't recognize it at the time. and I ended up writing the Gotham Bar and Grill Coke blog. That's a tough guy, man. What? That's a tough guy. Alfred? Yeah. He's a little shy. He's a little shy. Okay. But what fascinates me is, you know, as I think a good point of comparison, right, is I also have done some writing about tennis.

34:12And, you know, you do a biography of a tennis player and they're remarkably similar for the most part. I mean, their family backgrounds might be different. But a lot of them commit very young and then they're in an academy and then they're starting to play tournaments and that's the life. The whole chef thing, first of all, you know, again, this is less so now, but it used to be true almost to a person. The whole population was people who were on their second or third or fourth attempt at figuring out what the hell they wanted to do with their life. You know, these are people who didn't fit anywhere else.

34:50That's fascinating to me. I don't know how you can be empathetic and not find that fascinating. And then all the different ways people come to it, all the different ways you can train from like going to a place like the Culinary Institute of America to. Trade school or home ec. To doing that. Home ec, yeah. Right. Or like the high school hybrid courses, right? The vocational schools. BOCES, yeah. All that to, what did you say, BOCES? BOCES, yeah. BoCies Upstate New York. Absolutely. I have several friends. Great training ground for chefs in New York. Harold Diederle is a proud graduate of BoCies.

35:25You see it a lot, yeah. But, you know, there's that whole – and then there's the self-taught. You know, chefs like Patrick O 'Connell, you know, who has three Michelin stars now at the Inn at Little Washington. Jason Hamill. Jason Hamill in Chicago at Lulu's Cafe. I mean, all the different ways people come to it, all the different ways they can express themselves on the plate. And then it's all set in, you know, this is, again, this is the idea of the, I don't mean to keep self-plugging within the interview. This is the time to do it. But this is about the book. Like, the book is also, it's like, then you take all those backstories and all those different ways of getting to this place.

36:03And then on a daily basis, you know, they have to function in this high-pressure situation. And you have all these people from all these different backgrounds who need to get together in the foxhole, you know, to get along. Like that, like I hear myself saying it. I've been covering this for like 25 years. I am still genuinely excited by it. It's so well said, Andrew. Thank you for laying that out. And I have to fully agree. I came to food writing through music writing and film writing, and I did that early in my career. And I just felt when you take these cast of characters, these folks with these interesting backgrounds, and when you interview them, I always found musicians to be the most boring interviews.

36:39like truly just on message, a lot of them into their own art in a way that it doesn't translate. But then you get a chef and you start talking to them. And listeners of the show, we have plenty of chefs on. There's just a candidness. There's just a candor there. There's like this level of intensity. There's a level of friendliness. I mean, a range of emotions when you talk to chefs is remarkable and dynamic. And I love that you lay it out this way. Thank you. I also feel like I think things have changed a little. I think you probably being younger than I am, you probably slipped in just under the wire.

37:14But, you know, I think a turning point in any expressive field, let's call it, from sports to all the disciplines you just named, is when people start lawyering up. You know, when people start having gatekeepers, right? Like I know a tennis writer. He's still writing. He once stayed with Jimmy Connors in a condo during a tournament in Florida. Yeah. Right? Or you talk to these old baseball reporters who would go stay in the same motel, you know, down during spring break and interview people at the pool. Or you're on the set of Apocalypse Now and reporting about that. Or that. And, you know, you look at the early writings that, like, Ruth Reichel did where she was, like, just friends with all these people.

37:57and I'm very fortunate to have come into this when I did because if you can have those direct relationships and not have them be managed, not that I'm looking for or you're looking for dirt, right? But to have a situation where you have some trust in the bank and people, like I don't send questions ahead of my podcast. I refuse to do it. No one's ever backed out because of that and I think it's because I have a reputation now And I think you have a similar – you enjoy a similar thing, right? There's a lot of people you have direct relationships with. True. And it makes a big difference. And it makes a big difference in getting people to be themselves with you.

38:39Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I appreciate it. And I agree. If you do it long enough and you hang out, you actually have to dine in the restaurants on your own dime. And it's something that you mentioned at the top that you oftentimes – you do pay for your own meals. And I think when you're a guest at a restaurant, you get to know these folks and it really does change the dynamic versus it being through a PR and gatekeeper and all that stuff. I want to transition and talk about Pino Luongo. He came up in a conversation with Susan Spungen. And I don't want to let that name pass because you've written a book with Pino.

39:10And he's like a person, a chef who had such important – like he was a – he's almost a historical figure in cooking on the East Coast. But we don't know who Pino Luongo is. I speak like it's in the past, by the way, which is hilarious Which is funny, because he's operating a couple of restaurants right now in New York City You can absolutely go to his restaurant You can go, he'll be there, too He's a very well-living human I have a second follow-up, but tell me about Pinot Well, first of all, we should say, this is how long it's been since he was in the real limelight There's a chapter in Kitchen Confidential about Pinot Pinot Noir, the dark prince of whatever they call it Any reader of Bourdain will know Pino is very much a part of that story.

39:54Well, I don't know. Maybe people don't remember the name at this point. I do. But Pino, so in the early 1980s, Pino had been an actor in Italy and came over to the United States, worked for another famous restaurant that's probably already starting to fade, Da Silvano, run by Silvano Marchetti. Oh, my gosh. And Pino kind of became Silvano's co-front of house guy and, you know, saw a shift to be made from acting to being a restaurateur and worked around. I still can't picture any of these times in his life when he worked for other people. Have you ever met him? No. Maybe that's where we'll go have dinner.

40:47I feel like I need – I mean, Silvano. He would still have dinner at one of his places. Back in a certain era, DeSavano was, like, in Page Six every night. Every day. Oh, he'd go to lunch there, and, like, Patti Smith would be sitting there having lunch. Or some writer. Yeah, a lot of famous—Nick Toshas was there. Yeah, there was definitely, like, an art crowd, but then there was a celebrity crowd, too. But in any event, Pino started doing restaurants as a partner with a couple that had, like—they still have it, I think—El Cantanori. That was actually Pino Luongo's first restaurant on 10th Street.

41:19Um, uh, and it's the same couple that have, uh, Periali, the, the little Greek place in, in Chelsea. And, um, and then he eventually broke off on his own and he was like the Prince of the city. Like in the, in the 1980s, there was a moment when Pino had in, people who've been in New York long enough will know these names, but he had La Madre in, in, uh, uh, Chelsea on 7th Avenue and he had Cocopazzo uptown, which is the one that Susan was talking about where Mark Straussman got famous. And then Cesare Cassell was the chef there. Mr. Rosemary in the pocket. Yeah. Yeah. And Il Toscanacho, Mad 61 and on and on and on.

42:06And he got a place called Sappore de Mare and I think technically Bridgehampton. Yeah. Cocopazzo Bridgehampton. No, it was called Sappore di Mare, which is the name of an old Italian pop song about the summertime. And, I mean, Pino had a car and driver, and he made the rounds every night. And, I mean, he does refer to himself these days as a chef, and you will see him dressed as a chef. In those days, he had a lot of influence in the kitchen, but he was really the owner, impresario, front-of-house guy. very charming to his customers very

42:48divisive among journalists like we had a book party for one of the books we did together in Florence Fabrican of the New York Times was there and she was telling stories about Pino but there's just as many journalists out there who maybe he kicked out of one of his restaurants you know Pino is a very operatic guy but that was him I mean, he used to take a helicopter out to the Hamptons on the weekend to go be with him. And this is a restaurateur. This is a food guy. This is not a celebrity. But he was in an era when he was definitely written about more than most operators. Well, he, I don't know what the comparison.

43:25Oh, you know what it would be similar to? Like the big budget version of Ronnie and Chinton, the guys behind Unapologetic Foods. How they're on like a roll now and they're opening demaca and salmon and rowdy rooster fried chicken. and it just keeps, you know, masala walla. Pinot was like that, but on a multi-million dollar scale. They just kept coming. And the reason I mention unapologetic foods as a comparison is Pinot, I do believe, is one of these people who, you know, there was a time in this country when you talked about Italian, you talked about Northern Italian or Southern Italian. That was it.

44:02And then now we can all say, this is like a Sicilian restaurant or this is a Tuscan restaurant or this is Amelia Romagna. Well, Pino kind of owned Tuscany and taught people about Tuscany. His first cookbook was called The Tuscan in the Kitchen, you know, and he and I did a book called Simply Tuscan. And he's one of the people who helped elevate the American, I believe, the American understanding. Like, no, it's not northern and southern. There are these 20 regions and they're all distinct and they all have their own food. I love this. I love this description of Pino. and maybe I'll invite him on the show or I'll get him on the show.

44:38Oh, he'd be an amazing guest. So let me throw this back at you. Part two of this question is, who is the other Pinot or another Pinot that we should be knowing about? You've written about chefs for over 25 years. Is there a figure that comes to mind that you think we really need to give respect to that maybe we've forgotten about? Well, New York Magazine, I was very happy to see, they just did a piece about Barry Wine. Oh, yeah, right. Who had the quilted giraffe. And, uh, uh, Barry, I mean, Barry Wine is such an important person. He's so important. Um, I mean, I think that there's, there's many, uh, a lot of them, it's been kind of rectified, you know, like, like Tony Bourdain did a nice job of putting a spotlight on Jeremiah Tower, uh, who I think did not get enough credit.

45:27Um, my friend Bruce Marder in, in Los Angeles who, you know, had restaurants like the West Speech Cafe and DC3 and Broadway Deli back in the day. But, you know, never hired a PR firm and is a bit of an anti-social guy. You can talk about Michael McCarthy, too. Yeah, McCarthy. I don't know. Yeah, maybe. No, I mean, Michael's was big 20 years ago. But we still forget. It's funny. When I was promoting my—I don't mean to be name-droppy. But when I was promoting my last book, I did a talk. Ruth Reichel was nice enough to be in conversation with me out in LA on the day after publication. And we were talking about people who'd been like forgotten.

46:13And she mentioned McCarthy and Michael McCarthy. And I said, yeah, I said, I think I really think because he was right at that moment when the spotlight went from the owner impresario to the chef. Right. Like Waxman, we know. Well, Waxman, there was a chef before, Jonathan. Ken Frank was there. And then Ken left within a couple of months. And then Jonathan's the one everyone thinks of as the first chef of Michael's. We know Jonathan. And we know him because of the five years he was there, right? But if you had been five years earlier, right, it would have been you would have known Michael. Yeah.

46:51You know, like the way everybody knew Patrick Turai, who was Wolfgang's boss at Mame's Own. Right now. It's the. But then it was Wolfgang. Man. So I think that has a lot to do with it in New York. I mean, I'm constantly dismayed at how short the memory is. People who I think didn't like, you know, there's a lot of people who don't know that Rocco Dispirito, before he kind of started doing a lot of television and books and personal appearances, was the most celebrated chef in New York City for a while. Yeah. I mean, there are the stories about that. I've never asked either of them if it's true.

47:27But, you know, there was a story that Keller, Thomas Keller, was in town for the Beard Awards. And the only time he could figure to come in in his schedule while he was here to try the food was like at 11 p.m. or midnight or something. And the urban legend is that Rocco cooked him a full dinner. Kept the place open. Yeah. And I don't know if that's true, but that's the level that he was at, you know. And or how important a guy like David Burke is. I mean, David's still a very successful restaurateur, but what he did, you know, was so important early on. Oh, absolutely. I mean, the guy revolutionized the hamburger in a way that we don't really talk about.

48:05That or like, you know, as he likes to say, he was Instagram before Instagram. Yeah, he was. You know, like when he was at the River Cafe, they did a chocolate Brooklyn Bridge, you know. I mean, these things matter. So I could go on. I know. And really, we will have you back. I think that we want to talk about. Now, I don't want to spoil the book, but Wherewithal went through some changes after you finished writing the book. Where did this story kind of end? Because I think if you read this book, you want to try this food, but maybe it's impossible right now. Yeah, I'm going to be a little vague, but I'll just say there is an epilogue to the book.

48:44And there's an updating that needed to happen. people if you want to know before you open the book you can easily Google wherewithal restaurant you can see all the news about it it's a moving story it's a swiftly moving story and I think that's so indicative of restaurants and you read about all the work and labor that goes into a single dish in this restaurant, all the craft and all the sweat and everything that you can say about a restaurant and then of course things change very quickly Well, it's funny. I was talking to Beverly Kim last week, you know, again, one of the chef owners of the restaurant.

49:21And she said to me, you know, Andrew, at one point you were talking to us and you said, you know, I don't want to be grim. But like by the time the book comes out, you know, the whole team could be gone. All the main characters in the book could be moved on. You know, who knows even if the restaurant will be open, you know, and she was like laughing about it because because even several months they they held on to people longer than most. I went back a full year after researching the book, and I think everybody in the book was still there, which is very unusual. Very unusual. But nine months after that, nobody was there.

49:56A change. Well, we'll leave it at that with the book, and I really hope, again, hit that buy button in the notes. It's a great book, and anyone who's fans of restaurant culture, check it out. Thank you. Can I just quickly say I'm thrilled. I don't know if it'll air first, but this is the first interview I've done for a new book in five and a half years and the first one for The Dish. Well. I'm glad it was you, Matt. I'm happy to have you in. Andrew, on This Is Taste, we ask guests about their discerning tastes. So to close this interview, here's a little rapid fire fast and furious taste check for you.

50:28Are you ready? I'm ready. The best and pastry with coffee? A lobster tail from Carlos Bakery in Jersey City. I love that pick The best dessert For me it's ice cream A scoop of pistachio ice cream And I'm a happy man That's a real food writer talking about pistachio over chocolate Dig it The best bread So when you say the best bread It's open ended It could be a brand or it could be Very open ended It could be a style There's no wrong way to answer Except if it's Martin's potato roll I would say Arnold's potato Yeah yeah Arnold's potato I am – there's a bakery in Washington, D.C. called Salou run by a chef named Jonathan Bettany.

51:14It is a completely self – they mill all their own grains and it is truly – everything there is whole grain. As you probably know, Matt, you can make something and sell it as whole grain, but it can have white flour in it, which facilitates structure and things like that. But Salou is 100 % house-milled, whole grain, breads, pastries. He has a dessert person there who was at Blue Hill when he was there. And it is a special, special. You would not know to look at it. It looks like any other hipster coffee pastry place. The stuff coming out of that oven is sublime. I love that call. Your favorite New York City restaurant classic edition.

52:00Well, I hasten to add, I have a fascination with many places I never ate, like the Quilted Giraffe. Of places I did go, it's entirely personal, but I'll probably say the Gotham Barn Grill. Awesome. What about the New Dog Edition, favorite New York City restaurant, New Dog Edition? I would say semi-long-term Francie, but of the moment for me, Claude. Claude hits me just right. I absolutely love that place. Your favorite chef to hang out with? I can't answer that. Really? Too many to name. I can send you the Robs at New York Magazine asked me that question 20 years ago, and I said, are you trying to kill me?

52:41Yeah. I'll tell you this. I think the chef probably I'm most close to is David Waltock, formerly of Chanterelle, who has been an amazing, amazing friend to me. That's amazing. So I'll say that. David Waltock, the first chef I ever interviewed. Is that right? Yeah, I did. I was in 2006. I was doing a magazine article about a gadget, and I brought a kitchen gadget to his chanterelle down in Tribeca, and he was so game to play around with it and test it. And that was the first chef I met, first professional kitchen I've ever been in as a writer. Such a nice guy and his wife. Karen's great. I just spoke to them three days ago.

53:19But David, I'll make that my answer. Love it. Your favorite chef to learn from? I've got to say Alfred Portali again, And only because when I started working with him, I was I was a wannabe screenwriter who was just taking a detour. I didn't really know that much about cooking. And, you know, I wrote three books with Alfred right out of the gate. And I kind of learned how to cook from doing that. It's really special when you have that connection with the chef and they actually learn stuff from him. And obviously you had a friendship. You did three books. Yeah. Wow. Your favorite cookbook of all time.

53:51I laugh because it's how, but I'm still asking a question. Favorite cookbook of all time. I think because I'm so good at spotting like the seams with ghost writers. And I'm sure she did all the writing herself. I will still go. And it was also big when I was making the transition to being a food or a chef writer. I will go with the late Judy Rogers Zuni Cafe cookbook. Second time that's mentioned today in our recording. Oh, really? Yeah. That was Jason Hamill's book. Yeah, that was. Very interesting. Yeah, it's a special book. And it makes me think. Well, Jason's a writer. Jason is an absolute writer.

54:28And that book has come up four or five times in the course of these questions. I shook her hand once the night she won all these beard awards. She's high on the list of people. She was very sick with cancer already when I did Chef's Drugs and Rock and Roll. And I wish I could have spent time with her. Yeah. We'll do a story on Zuni. Maybe you'll write it if you have time. We'll talk. Yeah, let's talk. I'll point you to something I did, an audio thing. No, no, no, I haven't. Well, let's talk. I love working with you as a writer on that relationship. Couple more. Your favorite recent cookbook discovery?

55:06She was on my show. Nassim was on my show. But the Sofre cookbook I thought was extremely well done. Definitely. I'll also throw in an honorable mention for – he's done several books, and I forget the exact title, but Lior Lev Serkar, the guy behind Laboit, the spice company, has his, I think, fourth. It's called The Middle Eastern Pantry. The Middle Eastern Pantry. Really wonderful, but we had him in the show recently. I'll link to the show notes. That book is amazing. Well, he really blends the practical and the personal. He talks about like growing up on a kibbutz and all this kind of stuff, but it's all integral to what he's telling you about food.

55:45Yeah. It's a great book. Yeah. It's one of my favorites of the year. Absolutely. A few more. your favorite vegetable uh well i almost feel like the way there should be two new york times critics there should be two categories i mean if i get one pick it's potato really well look at all the stuff you could when i went to cooking school at the what used to be called the french culinary institute guy calling potato out we did two potato days that's how many preparations that are worth i know and it's such a good call there's nothing there's nothing that versatile a world without franchise after that would probably be broccoli rob i love i could eat broccoli rob sauteed every day of my life it's such a good call last one your favorite sandwich honorable mention goes to a classic cubano because i grew up in miami florida with a whole set of my father was married to a woman from cuba i had more cuban relatives than i had uh a natural uh people who were born here originally.

56:43My favorite sandwich is a Reuben. And because of its unhealthiness, I maybe eat two a year. Yeah, it's one of those, you know, it's a real meal. Sandwiches aren't always meals. I also got to know it. There was a place, I'm blanking on the name now, but there's a couple of kind of slightly high-end-y, relatively high-end-y, used-to-be Jewish delis in Miami. And there was a place right near where I grew up. and they had a sandwich called the Messy Bessie. I didn't know until I got to New York as a college student. It was a Reuben. As a Reuben. Yeah, but I grew up, that name for a 10-year-old was very enticing.

57:19Yeah. Andrew Friedman, thank you for joining This Is Taste. Thanks for having me.

57:31What is up, Eliza? Not much. I just got back in New York from my Grand West Coast tour. Oh, my gosh. You were there for like two and a half weeks, West Coast? Yeah, about that. I was out in L.A., which is where I grew up for a while, doing a lot of family stuff, eating some food. Then I went up to Portland, and then I went up to Seattle, and now I'm back. Oh, my gosh. So I want to ask you a bunch about each city, but a favorite city? Can you even do that? Oh, no. It's hard because I'm from L.A., so that's like my hometown. And Portland is where my twin sister lives, so I've been there a couple times.

58:06And then Seattle, this was my first time there. So I feel like I had different experiences and relationships with each city, but I liked all of them. Great context. So let's start with L.A. What were some highlights? Some highlights. You know, I always try to go over to the east side for a big eating day because I stay on the west side with my family. So that is what I did. Well, I will say my mother picked me up from LAX, which on its own is only something a mother would do. But she brought me a bagel, which I felt it was stereotyping because I was coming direct from New York. Like I would rather probably have a taco as my first meal.

58:39But the bagel that I had was very good. It's from a place called Layla Bagel on the west side. And it was a very L.A. bagel in that it had beautiful, fresh heirloom tomato slices on top with some lemon zest and some red pepper flakes. And it was I had to kind of eat my words because it was a really good bagel. And I actually was happy to have it, even though I had just come from. So like first, like shout out to your mom. Like what a great what a great mom. Stacey Abarbanel. She's the best. She's the best. And also, it sounds like this is the kind of bagel that you like present on like in like a plate or something or like some kind of like tray versus it like wrapped in paper.

59:13It was in a to-go container, but not wrapped in paper. Yeah, of course not. Because I like ate it in the car, like leaving LAX. And an interesting side note is that there's a minor feud happening in the West LA bagel scene between Layla Bagel and a bakery called Jan Isaac that's next door. that they both do bagels and they have these apparently competing lines out in front every day of people kind of eyeing each other up to see who's going to which spot. And even when I posted this on my Instagram, I had a couple of people respond to me and be like, oh, but did you go to Jan Isaac or, oh, this is my spot.

59:45So I kind of inadvertently like wandered into this bagel feud. Wow. I think in between like Courage 2. Courage 2, which is on the east side. East side, exactly. Like, you know, LA is a bagel town. Apparently, you know, I feel like the New York Times did that big, like LA has the best bagels story recently kind of to start the pot you know but it was good bagel do you ever make it down to wexler's in the in the yeah market there his bagels were amazing micah's bagels yeah the bagels are really good the pastrami is really good love it where else did you go i went to pija palace which is like the indian american sports bar of lore on the east side uh i'm with my parents like crashing their anniversary which was really cute and my dad and i started off with like a beer and a shot combo that they were doing that was a tequila shot and a guava cider whoa super good so cool mixology bartending program there i like that yeah my dad kind of as a joke i think suggested it but i said yes so we did that we got fried okra they do a malay rigatoni that's like if uh panayala vodka and butter chicken had a baby that's the inspiration for that sauce, which is super good.

1:00:54And then we also had one of their special pizzas that was a hot honey pepperoni kind of situation. The pizzas were my favorite. I went there earlier this year and I thought the pizzas were so standout. It's not I mean, the sports bar is a cool like angle, but it's like a like serious restaurant. Yeah, super serious. The pizza is very thin crust. I liked it a lot. And then we popped over to quarter sheets down the street for dessert. Wait, oh, I was a more pizza, more pizza. Yeah, I saw Aaron and I was like, we just had pizza. So I just want to get my parents some like anniversary dessert we got um a nectarine slab pie okay that hannah was doing that was really great my god you tapped in with hannah at at quarter sheets what's what's good with those guys they're good they're coming to new york um food and wine and gonna try to eat some pizza with them i think yeah cool cool cool yeah it was it was a good vibe i kind of like frantically texted her when i was leaving dinner with my parents because we ended earlier than i thought i was like do you have any dessert left like let me know oh my god yeah amazing did you Did you find parking down there?

1:01:53We did find parking. It took a second. It was a challenge, but you're locals. It was good. The last place in LA that I want to call out is a new wine bar that opened called Stir Crazy from some people that are affiliated with Four Horsemen or were affiliated with Four Horsemen here in New York. And it's just such a great like wine bar vibe. And the best thing I had was a halibut carpaccio with brown butter. Yeah, right. Come on. I'd never had brown butter on like raw fish in that kind of way before. And it was so, so good. Yeah, like brown butter, like drizzle the top a piece of raw fish with acidity and salt as well.

1:02:27Nice. It was great. And I went after we went wedding dress shopping with my sister. And then I found out that another friend of mine visiting from New York also went after going wedding dress shopping with one of their friends. Because it's kind of in this like wedding dress Bermuda Triangle that I did not know existed until this trip. So apparently this is like the wedding dress to stir crazy pipeline. That's a great like one, two punch. Very unique niche content here. Yeah, this is my segment, niche content. So let's hop in that plane or train. I don't know how you got up there. You probably took a plane up to Portland.

1:02:59You know, let's make us like a sound of planes going. Plane, maybe sound. I don't know. I'm not going to do that. We have an editor. We have an editor. Clayton, cue the plane sound. Plane sound, okay. I flew to Portland and I went camping. So I didn't eat a ton of meals like out in the city, but I did have maybe three standouts. I went to a Vietnamese place called Friendship Kitchen. that is super popular. That is one of the best meals I've had in recent memory. We had really good shaking beef, and we also had something that they call a dream roll, which is a summer roll wrapped around a fried spring roll.

1:03:34Yeah, right on. Have you ever had that before? I have. I've had that in Korea in the past, but it sounds amazing. It was my first time experiencing that, and I kind of had this moment of just like, oh, why isn't everyone doing this? It's called Friendship? Friendship Kitchen, yeah. And then they call that kind of double roll the dream roll. Dream roll, right, right. And I just thought it was so smart. And like both of my favorite appetizers together, you know. So let's zoom on a bit about Portland. I was there last summer. I haven't been back. What's the vibe in the city? How are you feeling about the restaurant scene when you're doing a little research?

1:04:05I know you went camping, so you weren't fully in Portland. Yeah, I think Portland always has great food going on. And the way that they have this culture of food carts and little parking lots with all the food carts. And that kind of creates an incubator for people to open their own restaurants. I think that was the story of Friendship Kitchen, actually. And I think that that's always really cool to see. So that was really fun. I went to a Bialy pop-up called Bialy Bird. And I got some crazy Bialys, like zucchini, chermoula, Bialy, a miso potato Bialy, a hatched green chili corn Bialy. That's really neat that Bialy has become like a global food, like changing.

1:04:42Yeah. I don't know why Bialy, because I will say the bagels in Portland are pretty terrible. My sister's fiance is from New York, so he's a huge bagel lover. And I've never had a good bagel there, but the Bialy's were quite good. Yeah. Apologies to Portland, but I feel pretty confident saying that. But the Bialy's were great, and then we brought them camping with us and used them to make breakfast sandwiches the next day. Yeah. Portland in September, that's when you want to go there. It's just like the best weather possible. I love that. The leaves were barely starting to change. They had all of the produce in the market.

1:05:14And I also went to this burger pop-up called Paradiso that the folks at Guero are doing and had just a great burger. We did burger appetizers because we wanted to go to get Thai food for dinner, and they had a long wait. So we split burgers, and then we went to this place called Paddy and got Khao Soi, just kind of like comfort food. It was great. Yeah. I had that on my list when I was visiting last year, but I ended up having the Nong chicken. That's what I had. that is also like comfort food to the max oh my god i love the high knees chicken from non thai style um okay so plane sound up to seattle drove driving sound oh so driving sound so no plane sound driving sound up to seattle that's a cool drive right yeah it was cool it was like two and a half hours probably i went to the nike uh employee store before we drove up there do you know about this i can theorize that you got a deep discount because you know somebody who works at nike yeah well my girlfriend knows someone that works at nike and they're based in uh portland and they have like a crazy 40 off employee store so i went there what'd you get just socks i wait no 90s no air max 90s i wanted i wanted to get like the nike tabby sandals that are so stupid but they were out of them and then all the other shoes they had it just wasn't quite right for me but it was really kind of just crazy to go it was that was a whole experience and then seattle was so delicious.

1:06:36I went to this place called Local Tide that is a great seafood spot. And I had maybe like the best clam chowder I've ever had before. What makes great clam chowder? And are we talking Manhattan? Are we talking like New England? What are we talking about? I don't even, I think it's kind of their own style, I would say. It had, you know, potatoes in addition to the clams. It had whole clams in it, which I always really like in a chowder, like in the shell still, You know, it's really beautiful. It was really savory. And they do a lot of like Asian inspired dishes on the menu. We had a shrimp toast that was really good and a rockfish banh mi.

1:07:09And so I don't really know what they were doing in the chowder, but I think that it was probably like pulling from ingredients that were in other dishes on the menu too. Back to this rockfish banh mi. Are we talking about, is this like a fried fish banh mi or are we talking a braised rockfish? It was more of like a flaky braised rockfish. To be honest, it was not my favorite compared to the shrimp toast and the chowder, which were both just so good. But it's no fault of the rockfish. I think that just like a traditional like pork banh mi has so much flavor and so much going on in it that it's just kind of hard to like swing against that.

1:07:44Swap the proteins. You know? Yeah, I agree. I think banh mi, you know, you think of a pate, you know, think about porky. Yeah. What else did you have there in Seattle? My other standout meal in Seattle is that I went to Musang, which is a Filipino restaurant that's been widely regarded for a long time in a home, which is super nice. It also happens to be the restaurant where Si Pem Zhang that I interviewed about her book Land of Milk and Honey ate the meal that she said kind of galvanized the book. And it was specifically the kare kare short rib there. So I had to get that. And it really was like one of the best things I've had.

1:08:16It's so tender. And like that peanut sauce is just so silky. and delicious. And it's also just a really special restaurant. Everyone that works there is so kind. There is like a family having their like Lolo's like 90th birthday party when I was there and we were just eavesdropping on them. Like it just very much felt like a community vibe in Seattle. Wow. I mean, really nice choices here. And I'd been I went there in July and didn't go to any of these places. So you hit up other places. And you went to Booklarder, right? I went to Booklarder. They gave me an amazing list of like 40 more places that I need to go to.

1:08:50I liked the way that they divided it up into different types of things that they felt Seattle was known for. There was like a seafood section. There was a banh mi section that was separate from the sandwich section, which I appreciated that that was its own category. And it was cool. It was my first time in Seattle, and I really felt like it was similar to places I'd been on the West Coast, but also had its own vibe and that there's so many more places I need to go to. Yeah. Really, Book Larder, one of the best stores for cookbooks and food books in America. Yeah. I got a copy of Save Me the Plums by Ruth Reichel that I had not read.

1:09:26So that was like a great plain reading. Oh, you just started Save Me the Plums. Yeah. Well, maybe I'll talk about it in another segment. Yeah. We'll talk about that later. But I think I just got her novel in advance of it. So I can't wait to crack into that. Oh, I'm jealous. Okay. Yeah. We can book club that in the office. But hey, thanks for sharing. What a great trip. I'm really happy to see you back, though. So that's the most important thing. You're back. Yeah, I'm back. I'm well-fed. And now it's going to be fall. So we're ready. Good talking to you. You too.

1:09:58This is Taste is hosted by Eliza Abarbanel and me, Matt Rodbar. The show is produced by Shalia Harris and Pat Stango and edited by Clayton Gumber. Theme music by Steve Rydell. Visit Taste Online at tastecooking.com and make sure to subscribe to our newsletter for updates on all cool things that are happening.