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Podcast Notes: This Is TASTE - Episode 289: Chris Shepherd
Episode Overview In this episode of the *This Is TASTE* podcast, hosts Aliza Abarbanel and Matt Rodbard interview Chris Shepherd, a Houston-based chef and writer, and co-founder of the Southern Smoke Foundation. The conversation explores the food scene in Houston, Shepherd's departure from his restaurant group, and his cookbook, *Cook Like a Local*.
Key Points and Themes
- Chris Shepherd's Background
- Chef and Writer: Based in Houston, Texas.
- Southern Smoke Foundation: A nonprofit created to support members of the restaurant community, especially during times of crisis.
- Houston’s Food Scene
- Diversity: Houston's food culture is characterized by a rich variety of cuisines reflecting its multicultural population, including Vietnamese, Mexican, and Middle Eastern influences.
- Visit Highlights: Matt shares his recent trip to Houston, which included stops at notable restaurants like Kâu Ba, Trill Burgers, and The Original Ninfa’s on Navigation.
- Southern Smoke Foundation
- Purpose: Provides emergency relief and mental health assistance to food industry workers.
- Impact:
- Granting over $11 million to date, helping workers during crises like Hurricane Harvey and the COVID-19 pandemic.
- Emphasizes a case-by-case assessment for aid, ensuring substantial support rather than small, nominal sums.
- Chris's Personal Journey
- Leaving the Restaurant Group:
- Shepherd describes his decision to exit his successful restaurant group to focus on Southern Smoke and his personal growth.
- Emphasizes the need for reinvention and new creative challenges in life.
- The Cookbook: *Cook Like a Local*
- Concept: Focuses on cooking with local ingredients and culinary traditions.
- Inspiration: Draws from Shepherd's experiences in Houston and the people he has met throughout his culinary career.
- Mental Health in the Food Industry
- Challenges: Discusses the lack of resources for mental health support in the restaurant industry and the stigma surrounding it.
- Solutions: Southern Smoke provides access to mental health care, emphasizing sustainability and long-term support for individuals.
- Houston as a Dynamic Food City
- Culinary Exploration:
- Chris and Matt discuss the uniqueness of Houston's food scene, including the availability of local ingredients and diverse culinary influences.
- The importance of supporting local farmers and understanding food origins.
- Matt's Houston Culinary Tour
- Restaurants Visited:
- *Kâu Ba*: Known for its pho.
- *Trill Burgers*: A smash burger joint founded by rapper Bun B.
- *Tatemó*: Celebrates Mexican cuisine.
- *Crawfish & Noodles*: A Viet Cajun spot featuring shrimp and salt and pepper squid.
- *Blacksmith*: Renowned for its coffee and gourmet biscuits.
Key Takeaways
- Community Focus: The Southern Smoke Foundation plays a pivotal role in supporting food industry individuals facing crises.
- Culinary Diversity: Houston is a melting pot of culinary traditions, contributing to its reputation as a vibrant food city.
- Personal Growth: Chris Shepherd emphasizes the importance of taking risks and reinventing oneself, both personally and professionally.
- Mental Health Awareness: The podcast highlights the ongoing conversation about mental health in the restaurant industry and the need for accessible resources.
Conclusion This episode of *This Is TASTE* provides valuable insights into the culinary landscape of Houston through the lens of Chris Shepherd, reflecting on community, resilience, and the pursuit of culinary excellence.
For more information, visit [TASTE online](https://tastecooking.com).
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:28This episode is brought to you by Resi and American Express. You've got people all around you that don't look like you, that didn't grow up where you did, and they are your family. You do things with them all the time, and you get to learn the stories of why fish sauce is important, why gochujang is important. We kind of just put those people in that book to give you an example of, hey, this is who you need to go talk to. This is who you can learn from. This is Taste. I'm your host, Matt Rodbard.
0:59Chris Shepard is a chef and writer based in Houston, Texas and co-founder of Southern Smoke a non-profit geared towards helping members the restaurant community On this episode we have a lively conversation about the food scene in his hometown leaving his restaurant group and his cookbook, Cook Like a Local I hope you enjoy this conversation
1:26Chris Shepard, this is Taze. How are you doing? Fantastic, Matt. Thank you for having me. I'm so happy to see you. I was down in Houston. We were having you, Lindsay, and I were having coffee. Yeah. And here we are in the podcast studio a couple weeks later. I know. It's amazing timing. It's great timing. Tell me about New York. You were just in town for the Welcome Conference. I want to hear about your talk that you gave there. But where do you go to eat right now? I want to get a sense of when you land, where are you hitting? You know, it was funny because when we got in, it was just such a— And every day has had so many things that we've had to do.
1:57And so it's been like grab something real quick, do this over here, eat over here. We had a fantastic dinner at Red Hook Tavern, though. I just love it. It's something that I'm really glad is here and not in Houston because I would go broke real quick just because it's like that wine list is just beautiful and it's well written and the food is delicious. And we would probably eat there three times a week, two or three times a week. It's beautiful. I mean, you're walking down those kind of quieter blocks of Red Hook. You enter that dining room. Yeah, it's very unique. And then when you're over there, you've got to go by Sonny's.
2:30Yes. You just walk around the corner and go to Sonny's. After hours. You know, look at the Statue of Liberty and just enjoy the views. God, I love Red Hook. Red Hook is kind of unchanged. I mean, it went through a massive change in like 2005, but then it kind of stopped. Yeah, it's just still the same. It's really cool. So you went to Red Hook Tavern. What about Manhattan? Anything you hit up? anything? We did pasties and then had lunch at Bad Roman. It was good. Yeah, Bad Roman. Now, let's talk about the Welcome Conference. Influential, you know, all the movers and shakers hang out there for a Monday in this fall.
3:04And, you know, you're given a talk and the speakers have given many talks about personal history. What was your talk about? Being Better for Others was the name of the speech. And I'll be honest with you, that's pretty much the only thing I wrote down. You know, people came up. You went off the dome. Yeah. And I just, it was one of these things that, you know, we talked about it and I've been thinking about what I was going to say, how I was going to say it. And, you know, it was really beautiful because they gave me the speech coach to talk with and like she kind of worked through things with me.
3:34And, you know, it took about 30 minutes for the first conversation we had. And she's like, yeah, you're shoot from the hip kind of guy. Like, it's just going to happen that way. And I was like, all right, you know, I am. And so as I started to watch and the night before where all the speakers got together and everybody's like oh yeah my speech is 22 minutes I had to cut down four and like I had to cut a page and I was like oh wow like yeah maybe I'm doing this wrong you had a little bit of doubt when you're sitting in your hotel room I had a whole lot of doubt and I sat at the end of the bed and I pulled out my phone and I kind of wrote just like a set list in my mind that's what it was and it was like I start here I transition to this transition to that go to here talk about this stop here you know and I sat and I looked at that Lindsay my wife she just looked at me and she's like, you need to stop looking at that thing.
4:19And I was like, I'm going to get some note cards. She's like, no. And you know, and you could see when people, it was very planned and very methodical and what they were saying and how they were articulating it. And I, when it came my turn, which Will comes up to me and he's like, so you're the first one after the lunch break. I need you to bring the energy because these people are just kind of full, they're coming back. And it was like, okay. What was for lunch? Just as an aside, anything good? I have no idea. Yeah, yeah. You couldn't eat it. I walked out. There's 800 people standing there. And I talked to Lindsey for a few minutes.
4:53And I was like, I got to go. Eric Williams gave me, from Virtue in Chicago, gave me the most amazing pep talk. And that's just him. Chef to chef. Yeah. And we talked for like three or four minutes. And then I looked down as I walked out. And he's sitting on the front row just like, let's go. And, you know, I addressed the audience right off the beginning. And I was like, I'm going to acknowledge my insecurities. and I'm going to tell you that I can't write down what I want to say because if I do that, it's going to sound terrible. So I'm just going to shoot from the hip. I'm going to talk from my heart and I'm going to tell you my truths and take it for what it is.
5:30And so it was more of a conversation about Southern Smoke, but more people always ask, like, you started this organization and how did you get it to where it is? And I was like, I don't know the answer to that. But if you don't try and you don't break down those walls in your own mind because you're really the only person that can tell you no, like everybody's going to doubt you. Yeah. But you're the only person that can succeed to saying, I can't do this. And it's that's not the right answer. Right. As always, we talk about it like there is no try. You can't say I'm going to try to do that because you're already accepting failure.
6:06You just do it. Right. You just do it. Absolutely. You go through it full tilt and go. And so it was just trying to get people to unlock their heart so they could hear their own minds. And I think we did a pretty good job. Do you remember a beat from the talk that resonated? People maybe like looked at you in a different way. Was there a moment? Is there a line that you can remember? You know, I don't know. Because I started the conversation about talking. I told them, hey, I'm going to tell you about my insecurities. Now I'm going to tell you a story. I need you to clear your mind right now. And when we get through this, I'm going to ask you to hold my stress for me.
6:44And I went through a scenario that we dealt with as an organization where a gentleman was hit on a motorcycle. His fourth surgery was about to happen. Insurance said, you're done. And he still had that surgery was to replace the plate in his head, his part of his skull. And his mom was given the choice to come up with a hundred thousand dollars or to put him into a high end brain rehabilitation unit or to watch him pass and to put him into a hospice and watch him die. And, uh, at that point I was like, now I'm gonna ask you to hold that stress. And I started into another segment of the conversation and came back and I was like, when I started to describe what Southern smoke is, you know, for us to be able to walk in within one day and write them a check for$100 ,000 so that she could save her son.
7:36And I'll never forget when Chris Bianco, it's the one thing I feel bad that I didn't finish. I forgot because if I would have written it down, I probably would have remembered that. But I was like, you know, Chris called me and said, hey, man, he's got a pizza joint. Let me come make pizzas for a couple of weeks. I'll help his restaurant stay afloat while he's in the hospital. I was like, Chris, it's going to be a long term thing, but I'm going to call you in at some point and last year at the festival danny's mom helped him stand out of his wheelchair and he made a he made a pizza with chris bianco yeah and i just sat and i cried that's a really moving moment and i want to talk about something smoke because it's an organization that has a real focus um it helps workers in uh in the food industry but not just restaurant workers but it could be in in fish fishermen or butchers and it focuses on emergency relief the example you gave about the gentleman with the motorcycle accident, but also mental health assistance.
8:29I mean, anybody in the food chain was where we wanted to start because what happened when we started this organization, it changed at Hurricane Harvey in Houston for us in 2017. And there was so many, you know, we were just doing parties to raise money for an MS society because a friend of ours was diagnosed with MS. But in 2017, when Hurricane Harvey happened, everybody started raising money. J.J. Watt, the Mayor's Fund, the Red Cross, there was hundreds of millions of dollars, But none of that was ever going to hit anybody in the food and beverage industry. Nothing like that was going to take care of a farmer, a drive-thru employee, a person that stocks the milk, like whatever.
9:04Cooks, bussers, waiters. Nobody was getting any of that money because all that was going to go towards fixing the roads. Yeah, building houses. And that's great. You need roads. But when nobody can get to their job, how do people pay bills? And so we figured out a way to, with our 501c3, to take on applications, to go through a verifying committee, and then go through an awards committee. And that year we had our festival. We had, I don't know, 18 chefs that year. And we took on 240 applications and wrote 139 families, a half a million dollars. Just from that one moment. Just from that one moment.
9:39Yeah, that festival. Wow. And so we kept with that. And so when 2020 happened, you know, I'll never forget, we hired our second employee in February of 20, not really knowing what was getting ready to happen because none of us really did. And within the first week of April, we had 35 ,000 applications in nationwide. And so it changed the way that we did things. And in 2020, we granted out over$6 million. My gosh, that's incredible. And now you have a sizable staff. Yeah. Now we have 12 employees, I believe. Right. And so, you know, and to date now we've granted out over 11 million. So let me ask you, Chris, about the way you give out these checks.
10:20Because my understanding, we've talked about this offline before, but, you know, you're giving checks of a good size, but with frequency, you're giving a lot of 5 and over 5 ,000 and over checks. How does that work and how does that help an individual in the food industry, these checks? We don't do just like a – traditionally, we don't just do a number, right? It's not like, okay, pandemic's here. Everybody gets$500. That's great. But when you're in the hole for$5 ,000, that really is kind of – it's, like, helpful, but it still, like, brings that pain. Yeah. Right? Yeah,$500 is not going to really cut down$5 ,000 that quickly.
10:54It doesn't. And so we decided at the very beginning of this that we were going to go case by case by case. And it would go – if they were approved, they would go to a caseworker, and the caseworker would build the case for them. and then it would go to the verifying committee and the awards committee. And the awards committee would then decide like what that number was. Like we had a case today. We were just talking about it at lunch. And this person needed, I think it was$3 ,000 for a medical procedure. But one of our case or ward folks said, I know what this is. And this person actually needs$4 ,800.
11:36So I vote that we give them$2 ,000 more than what they need because they're going to be in a problem again. And we take applications once a year. You can go up for a renewal once a year. And we want to get you out of trouble. We don't want to just pay for the problem. Then we want to make sure that you are good to go for the long term. This is important. It's sustaining. Yeah, it is. It's a sustaining so you can re-up if you get assistance once because we know some of these are long-term issues. They're long-term problems. And we don't have a cap. So, like I said, we've granted anywhere from$200 to$100 ,000.
12:10I mean, we've done heart transplants. We give people teeth. We give them confidence. We've gotten people out of domestic violence, you know, situations where we'll put them in hotels with the kids, make sure they get the food, the water, everything that they need. Then we'll help them and pay for them an apartment so they can start their life over again. And it's very important no matter what that is. We started working on it in 18, actually, at festival. We pulled all the chefs together. We were like, how do we make a change? What is the best way to make a change in our industry? And all the chefs kind of came to the conclusion was mental health.
12:39And it was good that we did that because July of 20 was our first program that we instilled, which we could give anybody in the food and beverage industry in the state of Texas and their children free mental health care access through the University of Houston of Mental Health America. So they can go and there's an intake process to go through Houston and you get long-term. Anybody in Texas. And now we have that program in Texas, Louisiana, California, Illinois, and New York. Okay. And so what we do is we work with universities. We grant their psychiatric departments. And we have their Ph.D. students that basically take care of people.
13:16And they need those hours as part of their training. They need their hours to graduate. And the best part is we just met with NYU yesterday. And they're so excited. They're our second university in New York. They just came on board this week. And they're starting to take on some of our applicants that have been in the wait list. Because when we announced back in March that we started working with Yeshiva, it went on a wait list in 48 hours and 150 people on the wait list. Let me ask you, Chris, I know you're going to be articulate. This is a tough question. But what are some of the mental health challenges that folks in your industry come across through work in restaurants?
13:52Well, I mean, just the stress of the job, for one. The stress of, you know, it's not a high-paying job. and so like you there's always the struggle um and you know you never know what's going through a cook or a bus or a waiter or anybody in the in the industry's you know minds especially you work you know 14 hours a day if you have two jobs you work 16 or 18 hours a day you get home it's late you know you may go to a bar you may not but then there's there's no time to turn down and so you know and I always say that like two o 'clock in the morning in your apartment by yourself is the worst place you can be is in your own head.
14:26And so just knowing that there's somebody there that can help you and walk through things. And I think that mental health traditionally has a stigma to it and it's starting to not be. And I still think we need to work on that. Yeah. I mean, we've talked about it as an industry a lot about, I mean, mental health and also substance abuse and tackling both. But I think there's still a generation who misses the dialogue. You can't talk to everybody in the industry through conferences and through media because the folks maybe aren't appearing at those conferences or participating. And so someone has to stand up and basically – our industry has to stand up and say, it's okay.
14:56Yeah. Let's address the problem because if we don't, we lose people. They literally lose their lives, and we can't do that anymore. So we'll close the Southern Smoke Talk. I want to find out a couple things. You're having – your festival is coming up in October, but also October 14th. I'd like to get our – so we'll link to it in the show notes. What's the best way that we as listeners can help you – can donate and help raise funds? So it's southernsmoke.org. Great. And it's kind of a choose-your-own-adventure type website. It's you can either help by donating. You can come to the festival or just kind of maybe through corporations take a look at that.
15:28Or you can apply, right? It's two ways you can go about it. Yeah. You can apply there. You can donate there. And I've always said if you have a little bit, give a little bit. But if you need it, come get it. And so it's kind of the way we do things. Thank you for reminding us that it is a two-way street. And we're not just thinking about the fundraising side of it. No, I really appreciate you pointing that out. And people will say, well, I don't know if I qualify. Just apply. Yeah. That's all it really takes. We'll tell you. We'll work with you. We'll figure it out. We don't have a lot of red tape.
15:59In fact, zero red tape. If we need to make something work, we make it work. Is the simple requirements? Are there simple requirements? Yeah. Our only real stipulations is that you've been in the industry for six months. Oh, wow. And you've worked 30 hours a week. Okay. That's it. Which I think in this industry is pretty easy. It goes without saying documentation does not matter. Doesn't matter. matter. Good. Does not matter. Good. Wow. Yeah, because we're not governmentally funded. We pretty much do it. Yeah, you're 501c3. You have private funds. And but you also have a sounds like you have a large staff who's helping raise money and continuing this.
16:34Where do you take in the next five years? Where does it go? You know what? I didn't know where we were going to be five years ago. So I'm not one that can say, hey, we're going to be here in five years. I think that one of the things I want to get to is, you know, I said earlier, even last year, I was like, I want to be in all 50 states by 2028. I've said that for past few years. And like four months ago, I looked at, you know, our director and I was like, that's not smart, is it? And she's like, it's going to be tough. And I was like, we have so many people on wait lists. I don't want a wait list before we start taking on more.
17:05Yeah. It doesn't make sense to go into a lot of these states if we're not doing the justice to the states that we're in. So until we have two or four or however many universities in each state that we're working with, because in Texas, I mean, there's so many even in new york you can just do texas and just new york and and well credit to you and your wife lindsey uh brown you know for for bringing this this topic to the the surface it's so important it's so important that you thank you for doing it our industry is very proud they don't ever need anything we're always taking care of everybody else yeah we have to ask the question who's taking care of us let's segue i want to talk about underbelly group and and your restaurant i love that restaurant i love that restaurant i'm singing you know i love it in the present tense and the past tense.
17:46We did a great book event there for Koreatown back in the day, but you left the group and I want to, and I saw that headline. I'm like, okay, that's interesting. It seemed to be going really well for Chris, but, but you, you left it like to hear why. I did. That was one of the big things at the welcome conference that they were kind of blown away with. They were like, you were on top of the world and you just walked away from it all. Yeah. And I was like, yeah, I mean, I did. I made the decision to change my life. Um, you know, I've been doing this for 30, 30 years, 30 plus years. And it was just the moment where where my business partners, we'd gotten all new leases after pandemic.
18:18We'd done all the things that we needed to do. Everybody was setting in the right direction. And it was the idea that the growth could be there. We set it up to grow. I just didn't want to do that. It was one of those things where I looked at it and I was like, we already have four going on five restaurants. I can't be in all of them when I want to be there. How many more do I want to do? And if we get into other cities, how can I give that staff there a part of me? So they understand me. And it just, it was really hard. And so I made the decision. I was like, hey guys, you know what? I, you guys take it and go and good luck.
18:56And, but I have other things to focus on. And it was our first festival coming up after pandemic. So we hadn't had one in two years. And our team, there was three, four people that had done a festival with us before. But the rest hadn't. And so I made that decision. I was like, I need to focus on this now. Yeah. And I'll figure out what else there is in life because I think you need to reinvent yourself every once in a while. I think that's really key that you say the reinvention. It's just you're a creative guy and you need to keep those creative juices flowing. But also walking away is challenging.
19:27I mean it must have been your identity, especially in Houston, which is such a great food city. And you'll hear later on this episode all my thoughts on Houston and my recent visit. But, man, like what's it like? Is there an emptiness? Is there a hole in your life when you walk away from a restaurant group? You know, it was really hard. at the beginning. It was mentally challenging. It was hard to think that I had left and I felt like I left a lot of people behind, but I didn't, you know, and they're all here. They're all still working. They're all still doing their best. They're all still doing what they need to do.
20:00But now I just get to spread that joy with more people in the city. I love it. And working on something spoke. Yeah. And that was very, you know, cooking is cool. Running restaurants is fun and interesting. saving lives means something to me. Yeah. Well said. Let's talk about your cookbook, Cook Like a Local. We published it here at Clarkson Potter. And I never got to talk to you on the podcast during, because it was like right before the pandemic happened and then that all happened. So you're finally here. It's been out for a few years, but I love the book. Thank you very much. And you're welcome.
20:31You put a lot of your own, obviously, personality, but if you walked into Underbelly, you saw all the farmers, the names, the photos on the wall. What does it mean to cook like a local? I just want to ask you that straight up. So for me, it was at that point in time when we opened up Underbelly, right? It was the craziest idea of a restaurant to begin with, right? It was like we're going to focus. Underbelly was the side of things not seen, which is the food of Houston, right? All the diversity that exists into our city and the people that live there. And, like, I spent a lot of time staging in, like, little mom-and-pop Thai places in a grocery store, Indian restaurants, Szechuan.
21:05Like, learning from the people that I truly love, and they became my families. And I became their family, which is even better. And, you know, at that point, like when we did the menu, like I had to explain to somebody last night, every Tuesday, a thousand pounds deer came in and we broke that down. Had to be ready for service by or broken down, ready to go for whatever we're going to use it for. By Thursday, because three 250 pound hogs came in and then goats and lamb on Friday, fish every day of the week, poultry on Saturday, whatever our poultry farmer wanted to bring, whatever variety of chicken or guinea or duck he wanted.
21:40I was like, just bring me 20 of everything, 20 of something. And then produce. I didn't really have a produce company except for lemons, limes, citrus, garlic, onions, mirepoix, and herbs. But everything else was just dropped off by our local farmers. So one thing I learned is you got to be careful when someone says, I had a bumper crop of corn. Can you take 1 ,000 years? Yeah, that's a lot to negotiate. What are you doing with 1 ,000 years of corn? I took them to a lot of friends' restaurants and just gave it to them. It was really what I did. I would take sacks and bushels and just be like, here, just use it for service.
22:13Use it for whatever. It's on me. Have fun. Yeah. Because I couldn't tell farmers no. No. And then we changed the menu every day. And so every day at 2 o 'clock, 1.32 o 'clock, we all sat down as the kitchen staff and we talked about what are you going to cook? What are you going to do? How are you going to do this? Okay, let's walk through it. It's exhilarating, though. It was fun. To cook that way, especially when you get those 200-pound steers to come in and you get to actually use different parts in creative ways, right? You have to. Yeah. You have to use the entire animal. That was my point.
22:39It was like, for the staff, it was this was a living being. And we need to make sure that we put it on the highest pedal still we can. And so you see the actual process of it all happening. So make sure we don't mess things up. How did you articulate this in the book? It came through, you know, not so much of the whole animal thing. Yeah. But more of just like understanding people and places in your own city. not so much Houston, but just anywhere you live, right? You may not know the people. You may not know the food. But if you start to love that food, you just keep going back. Eventually you're going to have the conversation.
23:15Then the whys start to be asked. Like, well, tell me why. And then all of a sudden the friendship starts to happen. Then all of a sudden the family starts to build. And all of a sudden you've got people all around you that don't look like you, that didn't grow up where you did, and they are your family. You do things with them all the time. And you get to learn the stories of why fish sauce is important, Why gochujang is important? Why, you know, just pick anything that's important. Rice. And so when we wrote the book, it was broken up into categories like rice, corn, fish sauce. And so it was a fun book to write.
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23:49We kind of just put those people in that book to give you an example of, hey, this is who you need to go talk to. This is who you can learn from. Don't just do it. Learn about it. Pick it up. I'll link to the show notes. Pick the book up. Let me ask you about Houston in general. I feel like it's a dynamic city. Food writers who know go there a lot and fall in love with it, which is me, case in point. But I want to get a sense for folks who maybe think about Houston and maybe the broad terms, the Houston Astros, beef, you know, like Texas stuff. It's not a monolith. And I'd love to get your take on your city.
24:23How do you reflect on it and represent it? Well, I mean, Houston is such a broadly—it's just a large city, right? And it's the fourth largest city in the country. It's a port city. It's a medical city. It's an oil city. And so when you get that, you don't get a lot of the European culture. Like there's probably, I don't know, four French restaurants in the city. You know, not like here where there's hundreds. Italian, there's, of course, a lot of Italian. But you see more Vietnamese, Middle Eastern, Thai, Chinese. And it's some of the best food that you'll ever have. And it's just, I had to explain it to somebody.
24:57is like the way that New York has slice shops is how we have banh mi shops. Yes. Is how we have pho shops. And so, I mean, we have three Vietnamese restaurants within like 200 yards of our house. And so it's like that's everywhere. And so it's the people that make the city. And it's, you know, because the people are still cooking for their culture and the food of their culture. And so it's so beautiful. Yeah, it's a Vietnamese city. It's a black city. It's a Mexican-American city. It's a we don't have an ethnic majority. Yeah. And not many cities can say that. Yeah. You can't. And you've got that, the ocean, you've got water there, and you've got that feeding into all the cultures.
25:39The port, I mean, the largest port in the South, the medical is huge, oil is huge. And so you get all of these cultures that kind of deep dive into that or are part of that. Yeah. Well, listeners, stick around and listen to the second part of this interview or this episode because I am going long about my love for Houston. Went to a bunch of places. Houston, and people when they think Houston, they think steak houses, barbecue, taco joints. And it is that to some extent, but every city really is that to some extent. Definitely. Chris, do you want to run a restaurant though? Tell me. I mean, does that pop into your head right now?
26:10It did for a little bit. And I, you know, my wife and I will go out to dinner and I look at it and I'm like, I really miss this. You know, and our friend just opened a restaurant and he had so many struggles. And it was so hard. Like he just couldn't catch a break. It was like he'd start to do service and the power would go out. So they had to get the company. And I'm just sitting there and I looked at him. I was like, I looked at Lindsey at first and I was like, this is the part that I love. I love the chaos. I love to figure the chaos. When service is smooth, it's a little boring. Yeah, when the P &L is up, it's a little boring.
26:46Yeah, I mean, it sounds odd, but like the chaos is what I truly love. I love to be able to fix things and I love to say, okay, let's do this, let's do this. And he basically told my wife, he said, if Chris ever says that again, I will never speak to him. That's really funny. And so I was like, yeah, you're right. And I do miss it, but I don't think I'd ever do it again. Wow. You heard it here. Yeah. I mean, I love it, Chris. I mean, that's such an—you're firm on that. Well, I'm 51, so if I opened a restaurant, I wouldn't take a day off until I was 56, you know, or felt comfortable with it. And that's, you know what?
27:19I've given a lot of my life to it, and I figure there's other ways that I can give my life to it. Yeah. But I can go home and I can have, instead of dinner service for$400, I can do a really killer dinner service for$200. Yeah, I bet. Lindsey appreciates that, too. Yeah. I always, you know, even cooking for$200, I still take stuff to the neighbors because I'm like, I made it for$12, so here. I bet you have some very appreciative neighbors. Yeah, they're very good. When you say chaos menu, I just can't not think about the bear. obviously the chaos cooking there and and i'm not sure if you've watched the show i have yeah it was good yeah you feel when you talk about the chaos it definitely feeds the the the narrative especially season one i mean it really is part of the kitchen it was season one came out as when i was going through the decision to leave the industry or leave the restaurant and i think we got through like four episodes and i was like i can't do this right now like i just because you You still hear that the ticket machine in your sleep.
28:14And it was just one of those things like I'm not ready for this right now. So we actually picked that up and then went right into season two. Yeah. I mean it's I've heard this from many chefs on the show and it seems like it's maybe not for everyone right away. It's triggering. It's a little bit. Yeah. But I mean if that's the scenario, then it actually gives the diner or the people that aren't in the restaurant business an actual real look into it. Yeah. And I think that's hard for chefs and people that are in the industry to watch at first because, like, that's too little. It's a little too close.
28:45There's a lot of shows you can be like, I mean, they kind of got it right. But this, they really got a lot of it right. Yeah. Yeah. I hope it's a new appreciation for diners. I think listeners of the show will appreciate going to restaurants and realizing what's happening back there. Yeah. I don't know if I can handle with just normal people being, yes, chefing people. But it's a little bit much. Or drinking out of, like, the delis and even saying the word deli or saying the way Paco Jet. Like, let's leave that lexicon for the chefs. Let's not cosplay chef life. I'm not going to watch a veterinarian show and start busting out with, you know, terms on how to save a poodle.
29:16Like, it's not going to happen. It's not going to happen. Let's stay in our lanes. It's funny. Chris, on This Is Taste, we asked guests about their discerning taste. So to close this interview, here's a little rapid fire. All right. Fast and Furious Taste Check. Are you ready? Yeah, let's go. The best morning pastry with coffee. Ooh. A canelé? Yes. I mean, I just had one with a coffee a little while ago. So, yeah, it was perfect. And especially before 9 a.m., I will crush a can of light. First time I've heard that answer. I love that. Best dessert. Ooh. I mean, I'm an ice cream freak. So let's just leave it at that.
29:48All terms in general of ice cream, I'm good with. Are you, like, purist? Are you a stoner mixing guy? No, I like it. I like crunchy stuff. I like textures. I love that. Me too. The best bread. Sourdough. No, the banh mi bread. Yes. What's it about U.S. banh mi bread? I've been to Vietnam. The bread is different, but U.S. banh mi bread. If you get it right with the rice flour that's in it and it has that sharp, glassy texture, I think that when you get a really good banh mi, while it's still in the wrapper, you can feel it. And so you got to kind of crush the ends before you take it out of the paper.
30:25But if it doesn't, it's like, I'm not sure I really want it. It feels a little bit old. Yeah. It doesn't make that sound. It wasn't the right thing. It wasn't the right thing, and you, your own little press sandwich version. The grip is important. I like to break it up, yeah. Into that. Your favorite cut of meat? Bobette. Why so? I like the idea of texture, right? I think it has a nice chew to it, but also when it's cut, it comes so marbled, and it's just delicious. It's like the best fajita meat you can have, right? And without too much to. It's still steaky, and it's soft and supple, but it's got flavor because the muscle has been worked.
31:05Oh, my God. I had the best fajita meat at Neem Fuzz when I was there. I'll talk about it later. Oh, my God. They got the ratios right. It was, like, such good fajita meat. Your favorite cookbook of all time? It would be the one that's still on my shelf at my house. It's what my parents gave me in 1978, and it's the only thing that I've held on to my entire life. And it's the Mickey Mouse cookbook. They've got to have a killer pancake recipe in there. They do. It's on a pedestal, too. It literally is sitting on a pedestal. Not even my book's on a pedestal. Like, it's just the only book that, like, there's just the ends of books.
31:42And then that one sits up. And so when I buy them on, like, eBay or wherever I can get them. And so when a friend, a chef friend that has a kid, that's my present. That's such a great gift. I love that. A favorite recent cookbook discovery. Ooh, listen to your vegetables by Sarah Grunberg. Yeah. At Monteverde. She's great. She's a fantastic chef. A few more. Your favorite chef in America right now? I'm going to go with either Sarah or Ashley Christensen. Oh, yeah, Ashley, of course. Or Ryan Pruitt at PESH. I mean, those are three restaurants that if I'm going to that city, I'll eat there at least twice.
32:26Yeah. Because they're such good cooks. And so I'm excited to see what Jason Stanhope is doing. You know, he just left Fig in Charleston, so I'm excited to see what he's doing. But Fig is one of the best restaurants in the country. Yeah, I agree fully with that one. There's new blood at Fig if he's left? There will be, yeah, I'm sure. I don't know if they've named a new chef or not, but Jason just left to go do his thing three weeks ago. Wow. Cool. That'll be exciting. After 15 years of being the chef there? Yeah, it's a great chef. A couple more. Your favorite vegetable? Celery. I get it. Tell me why.
33:02Texture, flavor. I love the seed. Yeah. Celery seed in things is one of the most beautiful flavors. But just a nice, like, simple, savory celery salad with some apples and jalapenos and a little lime juice. It's perfect. I just had somebody that did a hot pickled celery. So it was like a spicy pickle of celery. It was delicious. And torshy. It's fantastic. I get it because it's clearly for a skilled chef, you're going to be able to do some cool things. Or even a carrot is also, because you can boil it, fry it, mash it, steam it, whatever you want. It's the most versatile thing. Carrots are there.
33:39Celeries get less, especially when you think about seasonality with celery. Celery can have a season. Yeah, when you get that, when we get celery in Houston, it is so flavorful. It doesn't grow like the grocery store celery by any means, but the leaves and everything about it is nice. Love that. Last one, your favorite sandwich. Oh, man. Uh, that's going to be a mofolata. Excellent. Do you make these yourself or do you go to restaurants? I go to restaurants. I've got a good friend, Lucas McKinney at Josephine's in Houston that he used to work with me. And he has this like olive oil soak that he does on the bread.
34:14Yep. And puts it together and wraps it and lets it all sit, you know, so you get that olive salad that just kind of soaks into the bread. And it's like, it's not ready for 24 hours. Right. He makes a sandwich and lets it sit in the cooler. and it just, when you eat it and you warm it, you toast it. Yeah. Because he was always like, you want to toast it or not? I'm like, yeah, toast it, man. What's the meat choice in this muffalada? What makes it good? Capacola, mortadella, salami. It's a Jersey daily sandwich. Yeah, it's perfect. It's just the best, but it's with the tamponade, right? You've got to have the tamponade in there.
34:44So it's like a really olive oil. It's very Italian, obviously. It's just an olive salad, yeah. It's an olive salad with olive oil soaked bread. Lots of pickled celery in it. With pickled celery. There you go. Bring it back. Chris Shepard, thank you so much for joining us today. Thanks for having me, Matt. It's an honor. Really.
35:06Hi, Matt. Liza, what is up? Not much. I want to talk to you about Houston, Texas. Houston, Texas. We are continuing this series. I was able to go down to Texas with Travel Texas. Nice folks, you know, hooked me up with a car or like go around the state, find some cool things and we had we've spoken about austin and now we're talking about houston and my experience with houston um i've been there this was my third trip and i last was there when we were doing koreatown i did an event with chris shepherd at his restaurant underbelly and we uh you know had a great time there uh but this trip was all pretty much new restaurants and i think houston is this dynamic it refreshes every few years and it's truly one of the most exciting food cities in America.
35:51That's no understatement. The diversity of culture there between black community and Latino community and Vietnamese, like amazing, amazing and strong Vietnamese population, Mexican-American population too. And I had some incredible lamb dip tacos that we'll get into. And I think when you go to Houston, you know, there's no zoning there. What do you mean? Like literally when you drive down the street, there like might be a power plant and then a restaurant and a home. So it creates this like everything kind of flows together. And it feels it's different than a lot of communities. And it's not a good thing or a bad thing.
36:34I can't cast a judgment. I'm not trying to be like an urban planner guy here. But I do think it allows opportunity to open things maybe more affordably. And I think that's why it's such an attraction for folks from, you know, immigrants, new folks to America, move to Houston. but there's also a really like there's a really strong um cultural um backbone uh between the rothco chapel and uh the moneal museum and just really there's been a lot of money invested in the arts there so when you go to houston you can definitely eat your ass off and and just eat the most incredible food uh all day every day or you can go out to the johnson space center which i did and holy shit they have rockets there do you get to fly one not no flying uh available um but i did see uh one of the space shuttles was there um and several of the apollo uh pods were there and like gotta go to that johnson space center like it's a really houston's a great city to visit for like a couple days or even a week um because we'll get into the food but there's other things to do too Yeah, I love that lowdown as someone that's never been to Houston.
37:43I think it's helpful to think about the pace of a city and the way that you experience it. So just thinking about all of those different kinds of businesses and homes and restaurants together in a jumble is cool. And also, obviously, space is cool. Yeah, space is cool. But let me get into some picks. I think we're going to go through a number of places I was able to visit. And again, I've been here a few times. So I had a lot of new experiences and really blown away by the quality of the cooking. um Kui Ba is the first place I went to uh just had to start with pho and Vietnamese cuisine because it really is one of the the strongest predominant cultures in Houston um I later on went to a Viet Cajun place and I'll talk about that uh had some Bung Ba Hue a Bung Cha and I had a smoked brisket pho that um for lunch was just the perfect elixir I just come from Austin and had a ton of other foods and I needed something to like cleanse me but I wanted something interesting holy shit that was good restorative Restorative, yeah.
38:41I love that. Where else? So many more places. I really want to like tick these off, but one is Trill Burger. Great name. Great name. The rapper Bun B, he's along with Pimp C, is in the group UGK. Real Houston legend. Definitely anyone who's into Southern hip hop knows Bun B runs that town. He also runs that burger scene. It was a fucking really great burger. Tell me about the burger. Is it a smash burger? Is it a thicker patty? Absolute smash burger. Absolute perfect crust with the smash, caramelized onions. I really love the concept, too. Just like you order, obviously, like the fast food style, but there's great music, great branding, a fridge full of orange soda that they make there.
39:24It's like their version of Fanta or Fega or wherever you are, the orange soda. And really great fries. And they're putting it all together. I did not see Bun B there. I was kind of disappointed. I would have loved to have hung out with Bumby. But I feel like if you can't hang out with them, having good fries is a good consolation because not all burger places have good fries. I feel like that can be like the fatal flaw. It can be an absolute fatal flaw. Let's continue on this journey to Teimo. Let's talk about that place. Best New Chef, Food and Wine. Have you heard that name at all? No, I haven't.
39:58Yeah, it's great. So Emmanuel Chavez and Megan Mall, a couple run this restaurant that is based around corn and nexmalization. It's a tasting only, I believe it's like$125 for six to seven courses. BYOB in a strip mall across from like it seemed like maybe like some kind of factory and there was like ball fields next door. They share a wall with a church. Wow. So that's why they have a BYOB no liquor license. Again, this idea of Houston having a sprawl and like kind of the zoning, really fascinating backdrop. You walk in and you're hit with that smell of nixtamalization. They have the mill right there in the restaurant and just you're hit by it.
40:43But wow, really just incredible meal. Like I had a variety of corn. I had, of course, corn tortillas with some barbacoa. I had a quesadilla that was amazing. And I just think that Emmanuel Chavez is somebody that we should really be looking at closely like editors here at pangaranta mouse like give this guy a cookbook pay attention pay attention this name it's amazing but worth booking in advance i i thought um well regarded it's plenty been written about about this restaurant but amazing place yeah i would love to go there and can we like go back to the the church wall liquor license situation is that that they don't have a liquor license because they're kind of connected to this church or they're so close to it that they can't get one exactly and like they were actually having a service we like walked out of the meal and i could hear like gospel music um being sung uh by the by the congregants and yeah they aren't they i don't think they could they can actually zone it for um or there's no zoning but they couldn't get a liquor license but yeah it's kind of cool though to be able to do a tasting menu like in that kind of way but bring your own yeah booze makes it like a little bit more affordable and it gives it like a different kind of vibe.
41:59And I like the idea of being able to hear gospel during my meal. Yeah, totally unique, maybe only in Houston kind of vibe there. Yeah. A couple, I was at this restaurant, Three Chilis and Aldin, which is like a northern-ish neighborhood, a very Mexican neighborhood. And I'd hit up Jose Rolat, my friend, who's the Texas editor, taco editor for Texas Monthly. So I was like, yo, man, like I'm in these cities. Where should I go? And he recommended this place. And the lamb barbacoa, holy cow, consomme with chickpeas in it, which is cool. Cool. I'd never had chickpeas in that kind of context. You know, they're doing like this like traditional whole roasted lamb, picking it off the bone, putting them on your plate with the tortillas, of course, flour.
42:48um texas is all about the flour and we can't repeat enough how great flour tortillas and how that really is the thread of the mexican cooking in texas is that flour tortilla and it being fresh and made with like great you know care and just not the the ones we get here in new york yeah i think the wheat is also a big part of it like the soft white wheat that is popular in texas for tortillas. Is it White Lily that's the brand? I'm not quite sure, but... Carmelo is the one I've ordered from online. Yeah, Carmelo does great. I think they're based in... Kansas. Kansas City. White Lily, I think, is just a flower brand.
43:28It's not a tortilla. I follow you now. That's what you're saying. But I'm not even sure if that's the name, so we shouldn't go too far down this point. The point that matters is that the flower tortillas are where it's at. Yep, and I want to continue in this journey. Take me. I go to Nimpah's on Navigation. This is my return visit. And I think I went there. My first trip to Houston was probably like 12 years ago. And I went there. And it's in the East End. I made this pilgrimage. And I met with amazing chef Alex Padilla. And Alex and I, we visited and heard about the history of Nimpah's. Nimpah's is, I would say, probably a debatable statement because this is not something you quote unquote invent.
44:06But they invented the fajita as we know it today. the restaurant fajita. Whoa. That's their claim to fame? Pretty much. It's like the idea that the sizzling platter of meat, of beef, and vegetables, and in their case chorizo, comes out sizzling. You're offered this beautiful flour of tortilla, and you can make your own tacos the way that they do it at Chi-Chi's, you know, on the East Coast. But the way it was founded by Nympha Rodriguez in 1973 it started as a flour tortilla factory and then became a restaurant and moved on through the family and we talked a lot with Alex about the history I hope to have him on the show sometime if he's up in New York a really fascinating guy but we had pork ribs also like sizzling on the platter and I just think this is the place that you want to go to in Houston if you want like to have the perfect piece of Mexican like grilled beef there's like a marinade that they're doing there and the way they're like, they're using like a really like a rib cut, like a ribeye.
45:10So tender, cooked perfectly medium rare. I mean, it's like they do it so many times that they got it down. It's challenging. I love that. And I also, the fajita effect, like originating the fajita is such a claim to fame. I feel like on that alone, the sizzling platter being delivered to your table, you need to experience that as it was originally intended. I agree. And I think that they have queso there as well. You can go just queso, queso fundito. Just straight queso. Yeah, dude, just like dipping chips in queso. Are you kidding me? The best. It's like fajitas in queso, and you know he's got mixology going on there.
45:44It's a cool place. I highly recommend it. Down the street, Via Arcos, which is a legendary breakfast taco place. We haven't talked about breakfast tacos, and certainly not just an Austin thing. If you talk to Jose Rolat, he's written extensively about Austin's claim to the breakfast tacos kind of BS. But we went there, and it's all about the potato, the papa. bringing that in the potato is always in it and it was like talk about a hangover food is like flour tortilla stuffed with uh lightly scrambled eggs like nice and like fluffy and potatoes and bacon are the potatoes spiced at all or they're just in there with everything else and you have the salsa going on and that's enough roasted spiced not a throwaway carb but actually done with intention?
46:32Great question. I love a potato taco. You know, I'm not an egg eater, but I grew up eating potato tacos a lot at a place called Tacos Por Favor in LA. Oh, right on. Yeah. But that sounds great altogether. Yeah, potato breakfast is good. I tend to go more with just the protein. The potato fills me up a bit. This is my take on it, but I like that we both like have our opinions about what we like in a taco. So I like that. So that was, those are both in the East End. I like those two places. I have a couple more picks and I have to, I haven't really talked about coffee, but Blacksmith is a longtime favorite in Houston.
47:12It's not necessarily for the coffee, which is really nice and they do great roasting there. But this biscuit presentation was super impressive. Like a biscuit, but like as a main course. Tell me about it. Was it tall and flaky? Tall and flaky, really like quite rich. and then served with two side condiments. One is a raspberry jam and the other was an apricot creme fraiche, like half and half. And then like butter. So there's like actually three little carafts that you have and you have your choice. So you like each bite, you're like making that choice. Am I going butter and raspberry? Am I going, you know, apricot and creme and butter?
47:53And like, it's just this delightful, like having your iced coffee there or having some kind of cortado or whatever. and just like having this perfectly plated biscuit wow yeah that sounds like the dream coffee accompaniment i feel like biscuits are not a common thing you can get at coffee shops here in new york it doesn't uh happen and like they're all made to order they're all plated they're like definitely warm like so it's not like point and scoop and stuff into the sleeve the way we often have scones and biscuits but i was mentioning earlier when we talked about austin about how this cookie on the plate was a thing that was at birdies, but here it was like a biscuit on a plate.
48:29And like, you know, let's just do that. Let's actually like serve. And if it's$9, it's great, but like serve it with intent. Definitely. Are you listening industry? Do like a fucking cookie on a plate. It's so good. My last Houston wreck, and there was many, this great 48 hours ahead in Houston. Just love the city. I just, again, I can't recommend going there for culture and food. Crawfish and noodles. As you can imagine, it's Viet Cajun. And it was amazing. I had really good shrimp with Old Bay. I had some salt and pepper squid. And it was like just this communal environment. I actually went out with my designer for my book, Robert Diaz.
49:14Shout out to Robert. And it was just like a lovely time to, you know, experience Viet Cajun in Houston. It's such a strong population there. Yeah. Do they have a Yakamein or is that only like a New Orleans Viet Cajun thing? I didn't see that on the menu. So I think this was leaning. A lot of it was actually Chinese inspired too. There was like some Sichuan dishes on the menu too. I also went to Lee's down the street, which is like a famous banh mi bakery, Lee's Bakery. And I had a banh mi there. but it was cool hanging around that neighborhood and it was like a nice end to my 48 hours in Houston and I just can't wreck it enough.
49:50You did all of that in 48 hours? Yeah, man. Wow. This isn't like past tense, yeah. Committed to the game. I appreciate it. Well, you know what? When Travel Texas is like, hello, Matt, do you want to come down to Texas and check out the scene? I'm not like going to like one place and going to the pool. This is like the work, Eliza. Yeah, you're in it. We're putting in the work. I mean, I really, I do. Also, Chris Shepard, I got to catch up with him and Lindsay is partner, Lindsay Brown, and we talked about Southern Smoke, their nonprofit that is really doing cool things. We're going to have Chris on the show soon to talk about his experience in Houston.
50:25I'll definitely cross-reference some of these. He was a big Three Chili's fan as well. Yeah, I could go on forever, to be honest. I love this place. Well, I really want to go, and I'm looking forward to hearing more about it. Great catching up.
50:42This is Taste is hosted by Eliza Abarbanel and me, Matt Rodbar. The show is produced by Shalia Harris and Pat Stango and edited by Clayton Gumbert. Theme music by Steve Rydell. Visit Taste online at tastecooking.com and make sure to subscribe to our newsletter for updates on all cool things that are happening.
From the publisher
Chris Shepherd is a chef and writer based in Houston, Texas, and the cofounder of Southern Smoke Foundation, a nonprofit geared toward helping members of the restaurant community. On this episode we have a lively conversation about the food scene in Chris’s hometown, what it was like leaving his restaurant group, and his cookbook: Cook Like a Local. This is such an inspiring talk, and we hope you enjoy it.
Also on the show, Aliza and Matt talk about Matt’s trip to Houston, where he had an incredible 48 hours, making stops at: Kâu Ba, Trill Burgers, Tatemó, Tres Chiles, The Original Ninfa’s on Navigation, Villa Arcos, Blacksmith, and Crawfish & Noodles.
The TASTE Texas Tour was supported by our friends at Travel Texas. See our dispatch from Austin, and stay tuned for San Antonio.
MORE FROM CHRIS SHEPHERD:
Houston Chef Chris Shepherd Is Enjoying His New Season [Eater]
Southern Smoke Festival [official]
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