293: Molly Baz

0:28This episode is brought to you by Resi and American Express. My first cookbook really needed to lay down the fundamentals. And it's like, it wasn't a moment to go balls to the wall. It was a moment to really learn how to cook and really learn some good technique, how to chop an onion and how to sear a steak. The second book opened up this opportunity to teach people how to cook a little bit more loosely.

0:52This is Taste. I'm your host, Matt Rodbard.

0:59We've long been fans of cookbook author and creative thinker Molly Baz, and many of you have too. With a signature voice and absolute wild recipe development skills, as well as years of professional cooking under her belt, Molly has won over millions of fans worldwide. Her debut book, Cook This Book, was a New York Times bestseller, and she's back with a really great new one, More is More, that taps into the food world's more maximalist urges. This is a really fun talk with one of the strongest voices in cookbooks, and I really hope you enjoy this conversation.

1:38Molly Baz, what's up? Welcome to This is Taze. How are you doing? Thank you. I'm well. Thank you for having me. It's great to have you in the studio. Your book is out tomorrow. Yes, it is. I love the book, and we're going to say many things about the book. More is more. What an accomplishment. Congratulations. Thank you. I appreciate that. Tell me first, you're back in New York. You lived here for many years. Yeah. Where do you go first? Restaurants. Like, there's got to be some old haunts, some spots. Yeah. Well, I'm staying in Manhattan, and I, when I lived here, lived in Brooklyn. So I'm like— It's weird, right?

2:09Yeah, I'm a little far away from the usual haunts. If I have time, always, I go back to Bernie's and Greenpoint. I used to live in an apartment on top of Bernie's, which I chose strategically because of its proximity to Bernie's. Oh, no way. My husband and I were just always like, our dream was to have like a neighborhood vibe restaurant. And that was the spitting image of it. And so we found an apartment right above it. That's good. That's always a go-to if I have time. But right now I'm in the Lower East Side. So I'm kind of in that like dime square circuit. Maybe pop into Cervos. Sounds like a good pick.

2:45I feel Cervos is always good. So back to Greenpoint. Do you ever go to A-Bar? Do you ever have a drink or two? A-Bar? Is that on Manhattan? Yeah, it's on Manhattan. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like the dive. Yeah, totally. That place is rad. That place is rad. It's been a minute. Bernie's has like blown up in the past couple years, it seems like. Yeah. I feel like it's like a whole thing. I hope to get back to it. But yeah. I love that you're selling maximalism for the home cook. I cannot agree with this more. I feel like you've really tapped into something that I enjoy personally and we cover a lot on taste.

3:17I feel like it's like the anti-figs on a plate mentality. Yeah. I don't know if you know what I mean with that, figs on a plate thing. Yeah, totally. You know, and there's a time and a place for something like that. But I feel like I guess my whole sort of philosophy here is that there's so much to learn in adopting a mentality like this of like taking things to the edge and really learning the limitations of cooking, whether it be a technique or an ingredient, the ways to use it. and that there's so much to explore by adopting this mentality of like more flavor, more texture, like what are all the ways that I can transform something and get it onto the plate?

4:00And that's really valuable in then allowing you as a cook to like really pull back at some point. So who knows, maybe my next book is like less is more. Okay, well, I figured there'd be - Spoiler alert. Yeah, spoiler alert. Are we talking like two years from now you're doing that book? Yeah. But why now for more is more? I mean, this Maximus approach certainly feels like a response to millennial pink and like minimalism and kind of like muted attitudes. And your book is certainly not that. Yeah. I mean, I've always, I think, been this girl, actually. And you've seen like my color story has always been like the primaries and very bold.

4:36And the fonts I've used even back to cook this book have been like very sort of distinct and have this very bold personality to them. And I think that's been my food forever. And the reason that it took a few years to get to this book is that I felt like cook this book or my first cookbook really needed to lay down the fundamentals. And it's like it wasn't a moment to go balls to the wall. It was a moment to really learn how to cook and really learn some good technique, how to chop an onion and how to sear a steak and how to season. And then you can start to loosen up. And so it felt like it was really like the second book opened up this opportunity to teach people how to cook a little bit more loosely.

5:16Well said. Why does everything taste better with a sauce? You write this in a couple parts in the book, spots in the book, and I just love that mentality. I mean, if you think about it, everything does have a sauce and it's just like hiding in some form. So if you think about like I always liken it to like cereal without milk, that's like that's food without a sauce. Yeah, it's dry as fuck and it gets stuck in your mouth or like a salad without dressing. That's food without a sauce. Yeah. Two very, very, very poor experiences, I would agree. Exactly. And so, you know, a piece of meat without a sauce is not dissimilar from that.

5:53And I think it's like it's about lubrication, for lack of a better word, sex without lube. Yeah. I mean, seriously. You know, that's food without a sauce. Listen, pull quote there of the century. You know, Molly Bass, appreciate the metaphors. Yeah. There's flying today. Yeah. I mean, I feel like I can leave now. You got what you needed. No, no, that was it. I totally agree with it, though, and well said, because I think you need, use the word je, use the word extra. There's just like something with cooking that we can't always accomplish, and restaurant chefs like yourself can. Yeah, it's the je ne sais quoi, and I think that's what I hope the takeaway and the learning is from this book, is like how to get it to that place.

6:36Let's talk about the great sizzled seedy moments, speaking of the previous statement. I feel like that was really fun that you like – sizzled and seedy is like a theme here. Yeah, you're so right. You know what? Someone – I think I wrote about this at one point in the book that someone – I think it was on set when I was shooting the book was like, you should have called this sizzled seedy. What did they say? Sizzled seedy. Salty sizzled and seedy or something like that. Yeah, you wrote that on the head note. That would have been a great title for this book. And I was like, I mean, not know. A close second.

7:09I think it's kind of another representation of the philosophy of like texture is such an important part of food. And I think it's something that people don't really think about or it's an afterthought. Everyone's thinking about like flavor, flavor, but texture enhances flavor and so plays into the experience of eating. And so a sizzled seedy moment is like a textural moment that everyone loves. Like nobody's mad about a little crunchy sizzle seedy pop. Definitely not. I mean, it's why salsa matcha and chili crisper are so popular. What's a recipe from the book that uses this idea of seedy and seedy?

7:44So the sizzled seedy tomato salad, for one, is an obvious one. The flakiest fish with shingled potatoes has this, like, crunchy walnut gremolata on top. I'm literally just cruising through here looking at them. Yeah. The crispy salmon with coconut rice and crackle sauce. The crackle sauce is, like, sizzled peanuts and sesame seeds and spices in turmeric and ginger. So good. You can put that on anything. The skirt steak with juicy tomatoes and salsa matcha. All of these recipes have some kind of crunchy, spicy, zingy, sizzled out, bloomed condiment. Really smart. Your recipe development is super on point.

8:21I mean, zooming out, where do you get these ideas? And I don't mean like where like spiritually, but like let me ask you. These are complex ideas. These are big ideas. They're not – it's not like simple cooking in many ways, though you've made it simple in the direction. How do you develop your recipes? How does this how does that shit work? It works like this. My whole experience in the world is eating like I filter everything through. What's the next meal? What am I going to eat? And I spend so much time thinking about food like disgusting amounts. And so every eating experience that I've ever had, whether it be like the humblest, most seemingly forgettable bacon, egg and cheese on the way to the bus stop.

9:06or, you know, some like incredible meal that I've had in Paris in my travels is like being filed away. I think somewhere, maybe not totally consciously, like it's not like I'm like, oh, yes, pull up that file. But like. You probably have some like notes in your phone. I definitely have some crazy wacky notes on my phone that go miles long of just like sound bites, basically, of like just little things that I've picked up or some I'll eat something. And I'm not it's not like I'll write down the full recipe or the full concept of whatever the dish was that I've eaten. But it's like a little thing like, I don't know, fried sage and creme fraiche or like soy sauce and creme fraiche.

9:40Whoa. Yo, yo, I'm pausing on that one. Yeah. Nice. Soy and creme fraiche. Nobody steal my idea. I have like some recipes. Wait, this is not in the book. It's not in the book. This is for less than more. Yeah, I recently put that down. It's like I'm figuring I'm working through. It's percolating some kind of a recipe that's like laid on a bed of soy creme fraiche. And I pulled from somewhere. I don't even know where anymore. But like that's kind of my lived experience in the world is just like keeping tabs on all the delicious things I've eaten and then repurposing them some way down the line in some newfangled manner.

10:10Right, right. And taking your deep experience in food. I'm going to link to our previous episode in the show notes. We get into a lot of your history. I'm not going to go over that again. But you've been there, done that. Been there, done that. But you have a great history of cooking in restaurants for years and years and years, not just your BA time. Yeah. Previously to that. Yeah. Definitely check into that episode. One more like story about maximalism. And with using this Maximus approach, there's great responsibility, right? You have to know when to say when, right? Yeah. So there's a whole section here or like a spread at the beginning of the book that's like the rules of more is more.

10:44And in some ways that sounds antithetical to the idea of more is more, which is like all about rule breaking and just loosening up. But it's sort of like if you don't know what your guardrails are, things can kind of go awry. And you need to know the rules in order to break them. Oh, yeah, totally. Makes sense. Yeah. And so one of the rules is when less is more. And in some ways to me, that's still a really more is more mentality because I'll give an example. There's a recipe in the book called olive oil drowned potatoes with lemony onions and herbs. And there's maybe five ingredients in that recipe.

11:22So fewer ingredients, a lot of restraint in the choice on what those ingredients are. But there's a lot of all of those ingredients. Like those potatoes, they are boiled and they are swimming in oil. Like they are drenched, drowned. Like a confit in a way. Yeah. And then there's like piles and piles of herbs and like bunches of herbs. So it's like it's a minimalism around maximalism. And there's a less is more approach to more is more sort of baked in philosophy here. So I want to like warn that this book is not just like there's 500 ingredients in every recipe and like more butter, more fat. The bros have done that probably back in like 2006.

11:58Yeah, this isn't stoner food. Totally. No, it's really elegant in a way. And I think that it has a lot of like it's nimble and your recipe development is fire. I fully mean that. Thank you. Molly, let's take a sandwich break because you I think your sandwich journalism is is definitely high level. Yeah. You know a sandwich. First question, what makes a great hoagie? A great hoagie, a balance of fat and acid. I actually think that a lot of the hoagies in the world, which look really great on Instagram, are super unbalanced. Yeah. And there's like, you know, three inches of cured meats and then a quarter of an inch of like wilty lettuce.

12:39And it's just like, nah, you got to switch that ratio. There's got to be equal parts fatty things to crunchy, acidic things. And that's that's balance in the same way that you want balance in any dish. Yeah, we should flip the ratios. I think like that New York City mentality is like fun to think about. But when you have like three inches of turkey, it's like, yo, dry and unlubricated. So unlubricated and just like not a good experience. Yeah. All right. So let me ask you, what makes an Artie Rubin? I love this recipe. You're laughing. That was honestly a ridiculous title. I couldn't think of anything better.

13:11Well, you're just like sitting in your apartment or your house and we're just like, yo. I was like, whatever. We'll just abbreviate it. They'll love it. It's not a very thoughtful title, I feel like. Or like it doesn't really explain what it is. Well, that's what I'm asking. So an Artie Rubin is a vegetarian Rubin that is based in artichokes instead of in meat. And I do this thing often at home where I zhuzh up a jar. I love an artichoke, but I also like I'm not spending the time to turn artichokes every night of the week. No way. And canned artichokes are pretty mediocre unless you're getting like really expensive ones imported from Spain.

13:46And sometimes I am and a lot of times I'm not. But there's like a way to really ramp up an artichoke. And that is to drain it and crisp it up in a skillet, like sizzle it in olive oil and then toss it with smoked paprika and garlic or any kind of spices. And it just turns into something way more than this like kind of tannic rubbery thing in a jar. Yeah. And so that recipe is sort of about learning how to maximize what you have and like look in your pantry and not settle for like mediocre artichokes just because they're there, but like have a few tricks up your sleeve that take them from good to great.

14:22I love that. So you're using water packed artichokes and you're adding it to the pan with with a lot of oil. Yeah. And you said smoked paprika or sweet paprika, whatever you may decide. Yep. Smoked paprika to, like, simulate the concept of a smoked meat here. But, yeah, you put them in a pan with olive oil, cut sides down, and they get all crispy. Yeah, man. It's a development of flavor. Wise. What's the cheese choice? Or is it no cheese? It is Swiss. All right, good. It is Classique. There is a Classique. So there is, like, a level of standard when it comes to sandwiches. Yeah, I mean, I'm not going fully rogue.

14:54I'm not a psycho. You were a sandwich podcaster for a minute. I know. Does that come back at all? I feel like it should. I actually started talking about this recently. like I'm ready to be back in the podcast world. I love a pod. And I feel like there's so many further episodes and iterations. The first round of it was just like all the classics. Yeah, it's fun. And it was really fun to then be able to incorporate some of those into the book. Yeah, it's a cool, I love your approach with sandwiches. Okay, Jesus, the salty coffee and peanut sliced cream. Man, that looks good. What's the idea here?

15:25It's really good. There was this coffee shop. So this is like, this is a perfect example of a soundbite. There was this coffee shop. Soundbite time. Across the street from one of the many apartments I lived in while we were renovating our house in L.A. In Chinatown. It was called Today Starts Here. It was Taiwanese. And they had a salted coffee cold brew that basically was like what Starbucks is now doing. It was really smooth, beautiful cold brew with like a big dollop of sweet, salty whipped cream on top. and I fell in love with it because I obviously love salt and like I do sort of not understand why drinks are never seasoned, but food is, and this is a seasoned drink.

16:09And that basically turned itself into a dessert in my head. And it's a bit of a mashup between that and this other coffee beverage that I like called Cloudy with a Chance of Peanuts, which is like a salty peanut coffee beverage. And so both of those were like swirling around in my head as these incredible coffee beverages that I was like, how do I distill this into a dessert? I love it. And that's what happened. It sounds great. I mean, it looks great. I need to... It's delicious. Wait, are you going to open a cafe one day? I feel like you're thinking through, like, sandwiches and drinks. I could.

16:41It's cafe fair. It's all here. Do you do it? I, like, I'll flip-flop on this once a month probably. My biggest fear is opening up a restaurant, cafe, whatever it may be, and not having enough time to be there as much as I want, and then the quality suffering and being embarrassed and, like, not feeling proud of what's being put out. And I've just been—I've just experienced it so many times where, like, unless the chef is there or someone who you know, like, truly, deeply is looking out for your vision is there, it may not be up to your standards. And I don't want to put that out in the world. Fair.

17:18I feel like everyone has an off day, though. Yeah, and that's fine. You know what I mean? But, like, not multiple off days. Right. Those aren't fine. Those aren't fine. And so, yeah, I don't know. It's just I think I'm a really particular person and I would want to make sure everything was really particular. And I feel like that would be kind of stressful for me. So I haven't quite cracked the code on how to do it. Because you're in the wine business and that's similarly you needed to make sure that shit was like locked. Yeah. And thankfully I have an amazing winemaker who takes care of flavor and everything.

17:46But, yeah, like I run a lot of businesses right now and I don't know if I have the bandwidth to also run a restaurant. Seems kind of insane. It seems insane. The margins are lower and maybe not the best use of your time. Yeah. Well, incredible. But like seriously, what's on the menu, though? I mean, at the restaurant that you're going to maybe open. I mean, I for a while, a year or so ago, was convinced that I needed to open up a restaurant called the House of Caesar. Yeah. And fun. It would just be like a big, boisterous Italian-American-ish, but not too specifically steakhouse. and like a guy would come around and do table-sized Caesar salads.

18:23And I still feel like I need to do that. I mean, it would crush. Yeah. It just needs to be good, obviously, all the time for your previous comments. So maybe that's like a down-the-line thing when I'm like burnt out on some of the other stuff and like want to focus. Speaking of being particular about products and businesses, your Crate & Barrel line, man, I wasn't the I bought it, but actually my wife bought me a couple pieces from it, which I'm not like a big I don't buy like a lot of shit from like direct to consumer or whatever but I really liked the croc I love the croc and the and the and the trivet yeah the trivets are so fun so fun um and I love obviously you went with a really great heritage brand American heritage brand but how do you make sure that shit is not lame like I feel that is the concern oh yeah um I have a really talented husband who is a designer and he designed it all with me and And basically, like, he knows the aesthetic through and through.

19:19He has helped build this aesthetic for me. Like, it's really been a joint collaborative process. And he designed many of the items just straight up on his computer. And, like, we would obviously tweak them together. And I basically have a creative director built into my marriage. And he keeps that shit in check. He creative directs your life in a way. Literally. It's great, though. I mean, you have a lot of love for him and it's part of your charm of what you offer in this crowded space with so many people doing cool shit is like you and your husband together, not just on video, but on products.

19:53It's nice. Yeah, totally. Okay, I have to ask you about Los Angeles. You dedicate the book to Los Angeles, the cool weirdos of Los Angeles in a sense. Why do that? Why dedicate this book to Los Angeles? I moved to Los Angeles right before I started on this book. And as I finished writing the manuscript and shot all the images, I just was overcome with a sense of appreciation and gratitude for the life that I had created seemingly very quickly in L.A. I was lucky enough to know a few people already in L.A. who then opened doors up to so many other people. And I've just met dozens and dozens and dozens of incredible people who have become a part of my community.

20:38And they're all creative and weird and wacky. And I just had the most fun sort of starting a new life and in a new place that I had always wanted to live but had never really had the balls to move and live in. And it's just, yeah, I'm just endlessly grateful. I built my first house, or my husband did, renovated our first house and created our space that's entirely our own, that feels very L.A. And so I just feel like I owe it to everything that the city represents to me. It's well said about the city, and you're a kindred spirit, and it seems like you guys are a great match. Me and L.A.? Yeah, man.

21:16Yeah, I think so, too. It fits. It works. And probably many people assume you're from there. Oh, yeah. My whole life, people just assume I'm from L.A. Really? So now finally I'm like, yes. Back in the day when you were in the Hudson Valley, people were like, oh, you're just visiting. here growing up always like assumption la okay let's talk about a few spots in la that you go to you frequent restaurants i know you just mentioned the cafe in chinatown but maybe two other spots that you like um let's see i we i recently or i've been frequently recently opened queen street i don't know if you've heard of it's by the same folks that own found oyster which was maybe the first restaurant I fell in love with when we moved to LA.

21:55Such a special vibe. And they now have Queen Street, which is like a more Southern Carolina style seafood restaurant. Such a vibe in there. Yeah. So we go there frequently. My all time favorite restaurant probably is Houston's in Pasadena. Oh, the Pasadena location? Yeah. I mean, it's close to my house. It's the best restaurant closest to my house. There's no apology needed. I know. Houston's is the best. It's a chain. Oh, I see. The chain thing. Yeah, it's true. There's like, you know, you want to support local, but there's like local people working at chains. Yeah. No, totally. Supporting people.

22:27Totally. And the consistency of product over there is unparalleled, really. Houston's was, BA had a Houston's connection. Yeah. I feel like money was maybe trading hands. Yeah, totally. It wasn't me, I swear. You weren't. No, no, no. I wasn't involved. It's a good pick. Yeah. One more. Sorry. Let's do one more. One more. Okay. I mean, this is probably my favorite restaurant in LA is Antico. Antico Nuevo in, I guess, Larchmont, I think it's considered. Yeah. like incredible Italian restaurant, really rustic, simple, very less is more food, but done so well. And the ingredients are just like beyond quality.

23:02They're using California to their full advantage. Yeah, totally. In an Italian way. Molly, on This Is Taste, we ask guests about their discerning taste. So to close this interview, here's a little rapid fire, fast and furious taste check. Are you ready? Yes. The best breakfast? A crunch wrap, which is my version of a crunch wrap, which has really nothing to do with the Taco Bell version, but is a griddled flour tortilla with scrambled eggs, dill pickles, dill, sour cream, and sriracha crisped up in a skillet. Yo, Molly, I'm taking a breath. The crossover of a dill pickle and a flour tortilla is really blowing my mind.

23:38Yeah, it's bonkers. You have to try it, though. And it's served warm, obviously. Yeah, crispy. Warm pickles are underrated. Agree. Yeah, they're always— Tuna melt? Yeah, tuna melt, obviously. They're like ice cold in many cases. The best dessert. Carrot cake. Now, let me ask you about that. More cake or more frosting? More cake. The frosting is too rich. I can't with a reverse ratio there, but it's the dressing. Nut choice, and are you doing raisins? Yes to raisins. Yes to walnuts. Okay, so it's kind of a classic. It's a classic. Love this, Molly. Your favorite American fast food chain? Raising Cane's.