295: Chris Black

0:28This episode is brought to you by Resi and American Express. I mean, GQ is an institution. It's like I have a deep respect for magazines and the necessity of that kind of gatekeeping. You know, things coming from a voice is important and like a style and like an umbrella that it's all under. So I'm very happy to be involved. This is Taste. I'm your host, Matt Rodbard.

0:59Today on the show, I welcome in Chris Black. He's the co-host of a great podcast, How Long Gone, and a columnist for GQ. On this episode, we talk about cookbooks, what he likes, what he doesn't like, home cooking or not home cooking, restaurant decor and uniforms, and really so many topics that are really on our minds about restaurant culture, food culture, and really culture in general. I hope you enjoy my conversation with Chris.

1:32Chris Black, this is Taze. How are you, man? Oh, I'm good. Great to be here. I love hitting midtown pre-noon. Pre-noon, midtown. Did you hit up any spots? Coffee, at least? No, no, no. I have coffee very early in the morning at like 5.30 and don't have a second one until later in the afternoon. This time would be dangerous. Would be dangerous. Let's get right into it. I was texting with our mutual friend David Cho before we got here and said you were at Superiority Burger last night. Yes. A micro theme on our show. We've been kind of goading Brooks to be on the show, come on the show. He won't respond to my emails, though Brooks is a friend.

2:05Just he's busy. What's the scene check right now? It was more mellow than it has been. I've been three or four times. I really like it, obviously. I used to live a few blocks away in East Village, and I went to the original location at least once a week. but they did take the burrito, which was my go-to, off the menu. Yeah? Yeah, it's not on the new menu, but there's plenty of other stuff. It's fine. But, yeah, I love eating there. I just think it's like a fun restaurant. Like it's not serious. It's not annoying. I mean, I wish you could make a reservation, but, you know. It's actually kind of great you can't.

2:41Yeah. You know what I mean? We walked in last night at 6, and it was fine. Yeah, and he's going to extend into the weekend days, and it's going to be really good. And I mean, I love the service bar. I mean, Mark Eyeballed is always there, which is neat. They also have this machine that they bought from Japan that makes this really intense sparkling water. Oh. It's like a Suntory machine, but it's just water. Oh, so it's like really shardy. Yeah, it's like$5 a cup. Amen. You know, so it's like that's my version of a cocktail at Spiorty Burger. Yeah, yeah, we'll get into that. What are your versions of a cocktail?

3:15I think that's cool. I think Brooks obviously like the way each of those booths are decorated there's like a tribute to Robert Sitsima and all sorts of cool people. No it's great. I mean it's just it's a fun place to go. It's a fun place to eat. You always see somebody you know and it's good. I mean I was vegan in middle school and high school in the 90s. I've eaten it at so many vegetarian restaurants in my life or vegetarian leaning vegan restaurants in my life. and this feels like the most fun one that's ever lived. Definitely. I mean, on that note, were you a Cates Joint fan? Huge Cates Joint fan.

3:54One of my friends growing up, before I moved to New York, when I would come visit when I was 18 or 19, he was a bartender there. So I partied a lot at Cates, I ate a lot at Cates, but I missed that club. That's a great sandwich. Yeah, the day-night vibe at Cates, switching over to more of a drinking spot. And then, yeah, that club, and I think there was some seitan dishes or they were actually really good. All right, so let's break into it. I mean, the narrative of Chris Black eating in New York and L.A. kind of goes like this. You know, Chris knows restaurants deeply despite his many issues with restaurants, enjoys the culture of a night out, enjoys a scene.

4:28But you like a classic probably a little bit more than a scene. Tips generously. Fair? Yeah. Wow, that's great. Yeah, I'll take all of that. I mean, I think that we talk about restaurants so much and how long gone. And I think Jason and I agree in a lot of ways and disagree in a lot of ways, which makes it spirited, to say the least. But I just find anything fussy, anything that takes too long, I just I'm not interested. And I think that that we've kind of like we've we've sucked the fun out of it a little bit. It's like the focus is on I think that like once chefs got famous and, you know, foam and tweezers and tasting menus and omakase.

5:07I just think it's it who really likes that, you know, and I say this all the time and I truly believe this. I don't think that I am able to understand how good food is after a certain level. Like I don't think my palate, I don't think my brain, I think when it's good, I'm like, hell yeah, this is good. But when it's like supposed to make you levitate, I'm not sure if I understand. Yeah, I think keeping that sensibility in check is just a great tip for dining. I mean, when you when you try to think about it too much, you kind of overthink it a little bit. Totally. I mean, this is not fun. It's not fun.

5:40It's not fun. I mean, luckily for me, you know, every restaurant now just wants to serve French fries and martinis, which is is pretty straight down the middle. And the things that go with that usually please me. So I kind of there's not a lack of places to visit. There's also just the algorithm and there's like Resi and like those two things like the social algorithm have like kind of informed the way we dine, which can be frustrating. It's very – I mean, you know, the fact that it's pretty tough to have like a night out in New York where you just kind of stroll into a restaurant and sit down and eat, that that is kind of not available to us anymore.

6:16Like you either have to know someone and text them or be on Resi and like, you know, on top of Resi, which is just – I just think that in other places it makes more sense. In New York, I feel like spontaneity is like part of the appeal of being here. Yeah. And when you take that out, it just changes the equation. Thus, your comment about superiority, you know, not having reservations actually is a nice vibe. Yeah, it works. I mean, I've never had to wait two hours, thank God. But, you know, somebody might. But tell me, Chris, why is dining out important to you? Because, you know, if you listen to the show and read your column in GQ, I mean, food informs a lot of your output, even though you're not like the food guy, whatever.

6:55Yeah, I mean, I think that restaurants are just fun, you know, and I don't cook. I have no interest in cooking. So going out is a big part of it. But I think that the, like you said, the culture of restaurants, being able to discuss it with your friends, being able to write about it in some way, talk about it on how long gone. It's just, it's also to me a part of living in a major city. Like that's part of the reason we put up with all the bullshit here is because we have the greatest restaurants in the world. Like maybe not the greatest food, but the greatest restaurant. I'll fully agree. I mean like Balthazar, the food is not great, but it is one of the greatest restaurants in the world.

7:32I mean I go to Balthazar once a week. I mean it's down the street from my apartment. We love it. And yeah, that's a great place that represents kind of the institutions that I'm interested in. So are you going to book McNally? Because I've talked to like Jason Diamond about this who's like on the McNally Watch. I feel like, you know, there's some New York Times folks who are itching, but I feel Hong Kong can break the McNally silence. We'll get McNally. I think that we have some inroads that maybe other people don't have. But, I mean, what he's done and, like, I think the book, if he really lets it spray, which you kind of have to do with a memoir, I think it'll be, like, pretty incredible.

8:08I think he's seen a lot. And, yes, that is definitely on our list. So the best worst thing to order on a restaurant menu? I just want to get your take. The best? I feel like I have a lot of success with shrimp cocktail. that's kind of a go-to for me. Worst is any, I'm not any like overly saucy fish. I just, you know, I don't know what it is. It's not for me. So I feel like it's, but I feel like it's overall a risk. I like it. You're like definitely a nice piece of fish hive. If you listen to the show, you talk about a nice piece of fish. But you're also onto a great point, like too much like, you know, a Bearnaise or like weird, a Grinoir or some bullshit sauce.

8:50I mean, I went on and on about this place in L.A. that served fish with a ham vinaigrette. And I was just like, what is that? Like, is this like a pre-1800s kind of, you know, commerce in ingredient here? Right. And I went on and on about it. And Jason actually found the root of it. I forgot what it was, but he found the root of it. And it is odd, but it has existed for a while. It's a good call there. I think putting bacon on fish is strange. because usually fish is for pescatarians. Well, I just don't know what that adds. I don't know how those flavors link. Yeah, I agree. Okay, so the narrative of Chris Black cooking goes like this.

9:29Chris does not cook, ever. You probably keep Japanese denim in the oven like Carmi and the Bear, but that's not you, obviously. For years in my apartment in the East Village, I did keep clothing in the oven like Carrie Bradshaw style. Oh, and Bradshaw is more of the authentic version of it. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I just have no interest in cooking. It takes so much time. It's so much effort. But the real reason is that there's all these restaurants to go to. And if I want a home-cooked meal, I have plenty of friends who are well beyond kind of the home-cook level that can really do something special.

10:12And I can just do that. I don't need to, at 41 years old, I don't think I'm going to learn to be a great cook. Oh, I disagree. I don't. You're, talk to Jason. I feel you, you're going to be nice with something. I mean, I could, I'm sure I could learn a few things, you know, but I haven't touched a cooking utensil in years and years. I mean, just no. I mean, in New York, it's easy to do that. In LA, we have like a, we renovated our kitchen. It's like beautiful, but we've never cooked. You literally have renovated your kitchen and don't cook. Well, I tried. I pushed for a no-stove, only low-boy refrigerators because I thought it would look so chic.

10:49Watch. But I got denied. Yeah, you need to have some kind of burners. Were you going like Wolf Sub-Zero, like nice appliances? That was the idea. I mean, you know, it starts like most kitchens, I feel like, in this age. Like you want all stainless steel, and your designer comes back and is like, all right, well, that's going to be$40 ,000. It is. All right, well, maybe we can work around that. Let's do a concrete. Yeah, let's work on the budget. But yeah, it was fun to look at all that stuff just because I don't use any of it. So it was purely aesthetic, like what I liked and didn't like, which was freeing.

11:20I feel like because other people are looking at it. Like Jason's Kitchen in L.A. is like amazing. They bought the house. It came like that. Yeah. And it's like kitted out, you know, the whole thing. It's nice when you inherit like good shit. Above and beyond what anyone needs. That's the best. Which is perfect for them because they both get pretty busy in there. But, yeah, I'm not going to be sharpening my knives anytime soon. See, I'm going to push back just a little bit because I feel like you're into craft. You're really into craft. You are into fashion. You consult with many brands, and you obviously are into the craft of zine culture and making books.

11:55And I really like that about you. You have a real sense of craft. Cooking seems like the natural thing. I agree with you. I think it is very natural. I just think that, like, the way that I don't know how to use Photoshop or Illustrator, I think I miss the boat. on like where I would have the time and brain power to like really dedicate myself to learning something new. It just gets so much harder when you're older. It's so true. I like was a Cork Express and then I just like stopped learning. That's it. We stopped there. Like that was it for me. And I agree like you just have to pick your battles and we're busy and everything.

12:26On the note of the bear, you're friends with Maddie and Chris Storr, the creator. And you've talked about being on set. You may have written about it. And tell me what's set like at the bear for you. I know you did a campaign with J.Crew with those guys. Yeah, I mean, I've known Matty for a while, and obviously we're pretty close. But Chris and I met, and we really hit it off. We have a lot of similar interests, and his partner, Josh Sr., and one of the guys that works for him, this guy Cooper, we just hit it off. We get along really well. We go to dinner a lot together. Those guys have juice at any restaurant you want right now.

13:01It makes things a little more fun. I never knew I needed to go to Fort Charles, but I did. Oh, you get to the Fort Charles. We got the 412. You got that like Dame 745. Exactly. But no, going to Chicago and seeing that, like I've, you know, I come from like a music business background. And like you said, I work in fashion. But film and TV is something that I have a lot of interest in and we're trying to do with How Long Gone. And I had never seen something at that scale before, you know, that close. So it was very cool to see like the soundstage built out, the full sets. It's like, you know, I became pretty good friends with Eben.

13:37Like, I just, like, real acting is so impressive and so hard to do. What scene were you watching? Do you remember? I don't even. You don't even know because it's like. Yeah, I don't. I mean, because what's crazy is, and I'm sure people realize this, is with shows like that, is like that kitchen is, you know, fully built inside of a sound studio, a soundstage. So it's, you're really in it, you know. Oh, yeah. There actually was a scene where Io and Jeremy and I can't remember. We're sitting at like a table, like convincing the uncle to give them more money. Oh, yeah, yeah, right. You know, I think that was I think they were.

14:15And you saw Platt doing a little bit of work. Yes, yes. Platt actually was on my flight from New York to Chicago, which was funny. Running lines on the iPad. Yes, exactly. Exactly. I mean, we had the set decorator on our show. And so we talked about the building of the kitchen. That was like a real working kitchen, which is pretty cool. I mean, I just find it to be, I mean, especially the second season, I think that the way they took it and the way that you get to really dive into each character's life and story. And it became less about a restaurant, you know, I think that was I think it was brilliant.

14:44But I also think it was just deeply entertaining. It's a good show. All right. Segway a bit. You work in fashion and I want to get your take on the state of restaurant staff attire. I was just at Lourdes. I don't know if you've been to Lourdes yet. I haven't been to Lourdes yet. I feel like British food is not great for me, but Lord's looks very cool, and everything they're doing looks cool, and a lot of people I know are friends with them, so I will eventually go. You should check it because what's happening there is they have a uniform, but they're doing crews with logos and hats with logos, crew T-shirts.

15:15And it seems like it's almost liberating for the staff to have to be able to wear what they want. They can accessorize, but they have to wear this T-shirt. But, Chris, I know you have a take on the serving, like the uniform in New York. What's it looking like right now? I just think that if it's my restaurant, I'm going Cafe Mogador style where it's like everybody that works here is hot and cool. Chill. And we can let them do what they want because they're not going to turn anyone off because they have good taste. The other thing I like that I've seen over the years is when it's kind of like, hey, jeans and stripes.

15:47But you do that however you want. I think there's like a through line, but everyone doesn't look exactly the same. I like that. Or the other option is just to really make something nice and give it to people, you know, which is which I think is something that has happened, you know, here and there. And I've seen it places. You mean like a T-shirt or a bag? Any, any like, yeah, something that's just nice that doesn't necessarily need a logo or anything, but just feels feels good and is wearable because I do think it's a it's a physical job. You know, you have to take that into account. Yeah. And you want to like let the service feel comfortable.

16:21Yes. Yes. Carbone. What do you think about those suits? I mean, Carbone is a Broadway play. So I think the kind of it's a different proposition, let's say, than most restaurants. I think those got like the servers there are like leaning into this character. They're really doing the whole thing, like the look, the music, the food. It all it feels like a costume. How's the suiting in your take? Like we could say Teresi, too, because they both have. I've been I've only been to Teresi once for a John Mayer after show. So I didn't eat there or really check anything out. Wait, it was like an after party from one of those big garden shows?

17:01Yeah, it was after the garden in the back room, which I really liked. It was beautiful. Yeah, nice place. I walk by it every day. It's really close. But I think that stuff fits those restaurants. That's what the customer at those restaurants wants to see. Yeah. And I think that that's okay. Yeah, they're going to see it at the end of the night on their bill too. Yes, yes, yes, of course. Talk about restaurants that will soak you in the best possible way. You know, I find that to be just kind of part of the equation. Sometimes I, you know, sometimes we've gotten killed. As a not drinker, too, you get extra, you feel extra killed, you know.

17:39Oh, yeah. Because I'm not going to nitpick a check. I think that's like the worst thing you can do. So if I go out to eat with someone, if they have a bottle of wine, we're still splitting the check. I'm not, I'm just not, I can't do that. I'm the same. I've been drinking for eight years and certainly doing the even splits. And, yeah, you definitely hit it hard when you're at, like, Teresi. And I meant by soaked. It's not a negative. Charge what you want. Like, fuck, if it's demand, you know, charge what you want. We know what – yeah, I mean, it's not like that stuff is not able to be understood before you enter the restaurant to dine.

18:15You know what you're getting into. You can check the PDF on this website to see what the prices are. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Speaking of prices, you worked with the band Cartel and you worked in A &R previous to your life in fashion and media. So when you were pitching Cartel, and this is a big reality TV show band, paraphrasing here, you were taken out, I'm sure, by A &R. So let's go into were there any meals that you feel were memorable while they were wooing you to sign with them? I mean, that was my first experience at Mr. Chow, which is a restaurant I love, which a lot of food people do not love.

18:50But I at the L.A. location, which was just so at the time to me, just so glamorous and so cool. And it was like, you know, do whatever you want, exactly what you think. But in that setting, it felt it felt more special to me. I mean, I was like 24, you know, there was one. And I don't remember what label it was, but it was at Los Quino and Los Quino was like popping. Oh, yeah. And we just like kind of invited friends and like girls and they just paid for all of it. You know, it was a funny. I wonder if that still exists. I mean, we didn't we didn't abuse it too hard. Those guys weren't like they liked it and it was fun, but they aren't like at the time they weren't into food.

19:34You know, it wasn't like, well, I want to go here, here and here. No. Um, but then we went to another dinner at Mr. Chow with our agent at the time from William Morris and we were, we were pretty friendly. And I, you know, I wanted to pay just because like I had made some money. It felt good. And then I saw the bill and I was like, oh, I didn't know. You pulled the ripcord on the bill. Yeah. I mean, I paid, but it was 800 bucks, you know, and I wasn't ready for that. No. For people or whatever. Yeah. But the thing about Mr. Chow that I love is obviously the history and the glamour and him as a character in the art, the whole thing.

20:09But also, I don't think I've ever seen a menu. I think that someone ordered, I now order from memory. It's banquet style. And I'm worried if they bring me the menu, I'm worried that I don't look like I've been here before. Definitely. I feel that. And the documentary that they're making is going to be, I think a lot of people are going to be surprised. about that restaurant, and, like, there's going to be some real, like, turnarounds about how cool the place has been. I agree with you fully. Legendary place, respected. I've done several birthdays there. Tribeca, Uptown, LA. I mean, I've been to Vegas.

20:44Like, you know, I just, you know, and it is, there are a few things. There's a scallion pancake I really love. Yeah, yeah. And I love the noodles, and they do it all vegetarian. It's a great tofu dish, so. It's good food. No, let's, Chris, have you been to Michael's in Midtown recently? I feel like I I was just there for a drink the other night. I go there for breakfast. It's right around the corner from our office. I want it to be bigger. I was going to go there after this. I went there. Incredible. I went there for dinner last week with Will Welch. Oh, so Will Welch is on it too. And I go with Tom Betridge.

21:16Oh, so it's not. Okay, good. I mean, lunch is really a scene. You know, it's rare that I get to rub elbows with Geraldo. But, you know, the crowd is great. The art is. Incredible. It's exactly the kind of restaurant I go to. That's a perfect example of a restaurant. I'm happy you say that, and I just haven't really been tapped in with people actually going there. Because when I go there, it's like Geraldo and Geraldo's friends who are there. Totally. That's the vibe. I mean, and Michael McCarthy, going to be on the show soon. Do you ever go to the one in Santa Monica ever? I've been to the one in Santa Monica, so beautiful.

21:48My friend Ariel married his daughter. Oh, okay. So I've met him a few times. He's cool. Yeah, he's great. He's real cool. You're a sober guy. You mentioned it. And I want to get a sense, are you following this like N.A. beer hoppy tea movement? I'm feeling this was the summer of N.A. beers. They actually got pretty good. I don't. I never drank beer. So I don't have like a taste for that. Yeah. The hoppy thing is interesting because I was first exposed to that at Go Get Them Tiger on Larchmont in L.A. because they had one on the menu like over ice in a cup with a straw, like, you know, like an iced coffee or whatever.

22:25And I'd never I'd never had it before. Yeah. And it's delicious. But I don't find myself like craving it, but I quite like the way it tastes. But I don't find – I don't know. I drink water. I'm an adult. Like I don't need fruit juice or like I don't – Mocktails, all that shit, yeah. But I think there's like a – there's this – and maybe this is true for some people and God bless, but I don't feel the need to like hold something that looks like a beer in my hand to like fit in. like I don't or there's not like a comfortability factor for me like I'll hold a glass of water I don't give a shit feel that I think my draw to it is just bitter reset of the palate that's all I like I mean that's why I like a hoppy N.A.

23:07but yeah I don't feel like I need to like cosplay drinking beer with the bros that's what the storyline is often though it's not about the flavor it's not about any of that which I think it hurts that as a whole by not talking about kind of how it tastes but I think you will agree you know it's nice to have that option oh sure i mean i yeah i just i've literally never ordered one yeah i don't have any like a 0.0 oh yeah that stuff's kind of weird it's just not i'm not interested yeah there's some good there's some good craft you know craft breweries doing na speaking of na you and jason did this funny bit like a years ago about guia and like it was really funny because it was like you were like shit talking them to the point where they probably paid you money to stop no well no no no no we we gave we've given a lot of we gave their product away at our shows like you know and I I don't um it's not for me but I love her and I think it's like a interesting business um and I think that she kind of single-handedly made that category cool and I think that's a very impressive thing to do because it's not something it's a difficult thing to drink.

24:18It's not like it's a instantly recognizable, delicious flavor. Like it takes some education. It's like a Fournette or something where it's like kind of gnarly. Um, so I think to, to like kind of create an industry around this product is, is deeply impressive. Yeah. And I fully agree. And I think her real moment was not the, the big bottles, but the cans. Yeah. The spritz, the spritz is more, the ginger spritz is the best thing they they make um but i just don't actually they did this like nutella thing they did this like i don't remember who it was and they sent to the house and i was like oh this is too good i have to get this out oh that's cool that it's too good yeah like i think you guys were early with them and like they were smart to reach out and you guys definitely i thought brought guia across the line and the name it was challenging but you and you were you're making fun of it in a loving way because i know you're friends with the founders that's yeah i mean i'll make fun of anything kind of uh and Hopefully it's in a loving way.