298: Jamie Oliver & Alison Roman

27:07Like you have some of the best practice in farming in the world in America. But the system, it favors no change. And there's actually no good reason for that because everything changes. And it needs to change because we're changing. The environment's changing. I mean our farm bill is changing. That's really what it comes down to. The farm bill is always up for debate, and I think that's what's causing a lot of problems. The root of a lot of our problems is that farm bill being tossed between administrations and tossed between power from the right and left. I want to ask you, you are the second most bestselling author in the UK.

27:45I think you've sold 50 million copies of your books, second to J.K. Rowling. So that's a lot of books. I've got to ask you, what drives you to write more? I mean, we've had two and two years, and I respect the tenacity when it comes to publishing. Yeah, I mean, I think a couple of things, really. I mean, obviously, it pays the bills. I get a pound 20 for every book I sell. I think you make a little more than me, just a little more, but that's about right for us. It can be less. But just for context for the listeners, being an author is not necessarily an easy way to make a living, right? No. Like a pound 20 or a pound or let's say a dollar a book.

28:24No, I mean. Like you've got to sell a lot of books to make a living. Yes. And it's really hard selling books. I mean, somehow, I don't know, I've been able to resonate with not just my own community in Britain, but, you know, many countries around the world translated, I think, 55 times. I think we're in like 86 countries or something like that. And I've been published here for nearly 20 years or so. Yeah. I keep doing it because I enjoy it. I love it. I keep doing it because the customer's changing a lot. So when I started book one, Naked Chef, the average time spent cooking in the UK was 46 minutes.

29:01Now, well, the last survey, the same survey was done before COVID. It was 21 minutes. So I think post-COVID, there's been a lot more kind of like digitization of apps, food delivery and phone and phone payments. So I think we're probably down at 19 minutes. I know for a fact from basket data in the US and the UK that we're cooking less now than we were before COVID, which was already at a low. So, you know, I'm kind of, I feel like I'm a rare breed farmer. Do you know what I mean? I'm trying to keep, I'm trying, I generally, I'm trying to find, like, if you look at One Pound Wonders, like that's the low washing up, minimum washing up cookbook.

29:40That appeals to a lot of people. Yeah. And another book that I wrote was Five Ingredients. like small amounts of ingredients, right? So that appeals to a lot of modern day people because they're frightened and they haven't necessarily learned or most likely haven't learned to cook at home. And they probably haven't learned at school either. So they're nervous. So do I buy that that I know is good or do I risk it and try having a go at something that I have never? So it's very, it's an emotional, nerve wracking thing for people. So I feel like I'm still needed. I feel like I still enjoy it. And then last but not least, I think at school I did really badly.

30:17So at school I did really badly. I flunked just about everything and I really struggled with reading and writing when I was a kid. I had dyslexia. So I think the fact that I'm the second biggest author in the UK makes me chuckle, makes me giggle. But more than anything, it kind of makes me hopeful for all the other kids that struggle. Because honestly, if they can't find any kind of inspiration in me being able to pull it off, then do you know what i mean yeah no and if i can do it then that that should mean for all those kids that struggle at school they just need to solve problems differently they just need to have the confidence to kind of get is that what drives your interest in public education is your struggles as a child like you empathize with our school system yeah i think like i am the kid that resented school so much when i left yeah i hated it i hated black and white it was the enemy i I hated the institution of it, like, because it made me feel small and embarrassed.

31:15And I'm not getting the violin out. I'm just saying, like, you know, that 16-year-old kid that left. I'd spent five years getting pulled out of school going to special needs classes. That's what it was called. Like, it's quite embarrassing. Yeah. So I think anything that singles you out at school is probably not sympathetic contemporary education. I think education's got, like, you know, a lot of what we do, certainly in Britain, I can't comment on America, but I've seen a fair bit over here. But certainly in Britain, a lot of what we do still is like what a bunch of monks and vicars organized a few hundred years ago.

31:47Like, come on. We've seen in the Harry Potter movies. Yeah, I mean, if you look at what's hurting young adults, ex-students, is debt, they can't manage money, and ill health, diet-related disease, cooking, like environment. You know, we need to get kids in both their countries closer to the mud, the filth, get them just to cook a handful of dishes just so they have choice. Yeah, back to the 12 recipes. It's not even something you have to cook. Back to the 12. Because it's interesting. When you see people that can cook challenged hard with budget and money problems, like we're reading about all the time now, and then if you look in the eyes of someone with the same challenges that can't cook, that family is in chaos.

32:36Honestly? So being able to cook a small amount of things is freedom. It's choices. It's a kind of tenderness and a kind of anchor to a home. And I am being romantic now. Yeah, a little bit. And it deserves to be. I like it though. I like it. I've witnessed so many very poor families cooking extraordinary food, having wonderful, wonderful meals. and clever cooking with a handful of simple ingredients all around the world and it's been a joy and that's what definitely makes me get up in the morning and want to learn to cook your newest book one simple one pan wonders uh i wanted to ask you a few questions about the recipes um you talk about frying pan pasta are you about pasta water how do you cook with pasta water i think without it or with or without it you throw the pasta water into the pan yeah so So boiling water, so you work on that sauce first in one pan.

33:35Yeah. And then you use fresh pasta, which is completely untraditional. Yeah. And then, you know, like just water goes in on top and you bring it to the boil, season it up, get the right consistency and serve it. Why is that an interesting one? I think like because you can get fresh pasta in all the supermarkets and because the time that people are willing to give now, if you look through that chapter, you're going to see color, texture, form. like there's some really nice combinations they're all about eight to twelve minutes to cook and you can cook one to two portions in a pan one thing to wash up um so i mean interestingly it wouldn't take me long to look into italian history to to find another equivalent of well how do how did italians address that problem this problem a hundred years ago 300 years ago so um you know the italians are very clever and i think um that became a that wasn't supposed to be a chapter i just did one and i'm like damn why have i not done that before and i did it again and again i'm like right that's a chapter because i can yeah ham pasta you just know it's going to go viral viral yeah and um and then like you know we we got there's like loads of stuff to do with i i really looked the pantry of ingredients that i worked from are the things that i know most people buy most weeks salmon salmon steaks like chicken legs you know um trying to actively give you good excuses to get more of the good stuff in you so in my books like i celebrate everything but really you know veggie vegan meat fish yeah breakfast lunch dinner desserts like i'm trying to sort of before i even write one recipe i kind of design the structure which i know sounds a bit i don't do this all the time but for this particular i wanted this book to be the most user-friendly cookbook i'd ever read well the way it's directed the art direction too is you're showing all the mise en place you're showing the ingredients which is um not common i think it's a more difficult direction to do that and people love to see you know what they're doing and kind of cook by numbers and you know whether it's kind of like when you made your first lego or yeah you know any kind any kind of comparable thing where you've got a little manual and it's and ultimately it's like a little tom-tom or ways you know it's getting from a to z and you want to get to a to z yeah you know when you get in a cab and they take you the long way and you're like no no no no dude you go that like so that's my job is to sort of navigate you in the less least friction as possible because here's the thing right this is the way i look at it anyway like if you write a recipe let's say you write a recipe that's good it's a nice title it's a nice concept let's say the recipe is rubbish It's badly real.

36:15It does not work. Yeah. Someone's going to go out, spend some money. They're going to cook it. They're not going to get A to Z in a straight line. They're going to be stressed. And then they might not like it. And if it doesn't work, which the probability is higher, then they might not ever cook again for a long time. So just for context, bearing in mind that most people don't cook anymore, and it probably hasn't been worse than now. Yeah. I need people to start and finish something, and I call them safe, non-vulnerable recipes. Like if I'm adding chorizo to a dish, I know it's going to have dynamic flavors, big seasoning, a lovely color.

36:52Because we're going out and buying that chorizo and maybe not the market we normally shop at. They're going to love that. And even if you do it bad, I like it when if you do a recipe badly and it's still great, that's good vibes. yep so um if you look through my books there's a you know if if you pick like a i don't know um if you an award-winning like posh book that's great like i can pick a few of mine out that will go like toe to toe and like you can have they can have a little ruck right that's fine like so i've done those books but in these books which are solution books yeah a lot of what i have to do is really compromise with common sense um and try and look at the problems yeah that we're facing at the grocery store and in the uk you sell the cookbooks at the grocery store yeah which is not our culture yeah in the states which is yeah well when i did the veg book um which is about like three four years years ago i did really well actually and um which was contrary i was pitching that for eight years yeah they weren't um it smashed it smashed it because people want to know how to make veggies taste good yeah um and we sold that book in the veg department yeah and they sold more veg and more books so why don't we in the states like working in publishing i always wonder why can't we get slotted in the veg department and actually do the same thing what's the deal i don't know yeah like again like sometimes logical things don't work like i know so So, for instance, we've just done a study recently that proves that if you give free school lunches to vulnerable and poor families, that it doesn't cost the state money because over a 10-year period, it makes billions.

38:37Makes. In what way? Through productivity and how that productivity of that child and how they don't follow, you know, how well they do at school. Yeah. And they're from really good proof points. So the idea, we're living in a time where it's very, you know, whether it's the UK or here, like whether it's the politics, elections, everything's in a kind of three, four year cycle. So everything's about now. Like what can I do now that makes me look good? What can I do now that I'm famous for? I think there's a lot of ego in politics. You think? Things like child health and stuff like that for me feel like it should be cross party and like 25 year plan.

39:13But that's too logical. So that ain't going to happen. Too logical. Let me ask you, is there a cuisine, an origin that you really want to learn more about, that you feel right now it's on your mind? Peruvian. I desperately want to go to Peru. The crossover from Japanese cuisine too. Yeah, the silk route, you know, the way that the kind of spices and trade, the fact that they're – But Peruvian, I mean, the native culture of Peru. Yeah, in all of its color. The fact that they've got kind of like ninja farming happening at, you know, nearly every sort of terraced attitude. Yeah. And they can grow such a myriad of types of foods.

39:53They're the biggest fishermen in the world. So their capacity to do interesting things with fish. Yeah. And obviously we know ceviche, but like the list is, I mean, it's one of the most ancient foods. So I'm kind of sick of reading about it and listening about it. Like I need to. You've not been to Peru. No, no, no. I need to get there. I need to get there. And I just need to go rogue and just get there. Do you ever travel solo? Do you ever get to do that? No, not really. Not really. And that's the struggle. You know, I've got five kids, right? Five kids and 150 direct staff. So, you know, my time's quite well managed within an inch of its life.

40:33And I'm happy to do that. And I love what I do. Sure. and we orchestrate a lot of, like, we produce our own television. So we get to sort of get excited about, you know, the stories, the casting families, the dishes, what lenses we use on a camera to tell a story, you know, playing with new technologies to get, you know, drones or, like, cameras that are inside things. We love telling stories. How can I show you something caramelizing better than anyone else? you know you're very hands-on with the production you oh my god yeah we fight for it i was the first person to use like um the latest sort of uh digital cameras on british broadcast i was the first person to use mobile phone on tv first person to use like canon 5ds on tv when we our last chat we uh and i'll link to in the show notes that episode we talk about some of the innovation in 97 when you first jumped on the scene i mean it looked different yeah even when we had crap cameras i would use like 1920s slide camera and 35mm lenses, prime lenses, with black socks and we would achieve depth of field through tilt and shift rather than the kind of spherical shape of a lens.

41:47You know, so you could say, well, why am I talking about this? But the reason I care about this is I'm trying to get you to see what I see and the way the human eye works and the way we knock things out of focus. And if you go right up to something and stare at it and see it getting crispy, I want you to see that. And so much of the technology that we've grown up with can't do that. No, I mean, your original show, I think it was the way with single camera work, the way the energy. I mean, you honed a visual identity that was copied and copied and copied and copied. Yeah, that was more documentary.

42:24Yeah. And then as we kind of got better and I felt the freedom, because also I didn't know what I was doing. I just knew what I wanted. Yeah. There's a lot of protocol in TV making. Oh, you should do it this way. And that attitude, by the way, is everything that we've talked about today, which is don't like change, should do this, should do that. And whether you like him or hate him, it doesn't matter. But like Elon Musk is like, no, this is what you should. I'm going to try that. And like just mixes things up. Yeah. And so I think, you know, in my own little way, like with food cookery. Well, you and Bourdain, I think, and Chef's Table and Stephen Satterfield's show, High in the Hog, I think these are all shows that pioneered, but yours goes back the longest.

43:04And I mean, what gets you excited about food television? I mean, everything. I love to hear that. It's beautiful. It is beautiful. Because I think there's technically there's more and more interesting things coming out, but I can immerse you in the food. Yeah. I think where we could go with AI is really interesting. So instead of you watching me cook, if you think about it, like, so my, if you think about it, like my job is to look at you down the barrel, like be convincing, be emotional, like be remotely entertaining, like teach you something accurately and cook the wrong way around just so you can see it.

43:39But actually where we're going with sort of like, you know, AI and sort of 360 filming, you could be over my shoulder. Yeah. You can crouch down and look under my arm and see exactly how I'm slicing that and what my fingers are doing to not get cut off, you know. So I think there's more to come. And then the idea of making – so the idea of guiding and instructing and immersively inspiring the audience anywhere in the world. I mean getting those goggles to actually feel okay on the head and actually be$20 and not$2 ,000. That's the future of food education, right? I agree with you. AR is good. And then just intelligent tagging in all of its ways.

44:21Like if you're into something, like you can just touch a button or rub your finger over it and then you can kind of go like from like factual entertainment into like you tap that and you can go super geeky into sort of like what is that ingredient and like how can you get it and where is it growing? Like the sort of encyclopedic depth. So I love, there's a lot more to come I think. And then at the same time, just people were so charming. Yeah. Like good people. When you get to meet them, you get the you get the real honor as a food producer. I get this as an editor and writer to go meet people.

44:53You get to be the actual you get to meet great people. Right. Yeah. And also the real Jamie. I'm not saying, you know, you don't get a real Jamie, but like the real Jamie is really curious. And like and I'm nerdy and geeky and I could talk about like proper, potentially boring. no you're great exciting things i love it but um but but but a lot of my job is to build stepping stones for people around the world that are really nervous to cook yeah and that means that instead of me sort of massaging my own ego around like the perfectly authentic whatever that means version of this i need to reflect what i know you can get in your supermarket yeah so if you think about things like one pound pasta which is not authentic but but you can't deny it's not delicious you can't deny that there's one thing to wash up you can't deny that it's actually like you're focused on one thing and and actually you know so i i think like i'm trying to come up with solutions you know you look at things like well people buy chicken every week they're actually getting bored of chicken yeah so like right cool like how can i get one ingredient like you say miso imagine my mom and dad or your mom and dad like what the hell's that and it's like well dude they're in every supermarket now like yeah you can use it in loads of really cool ways miso butter soy sauce let's go i mean that's perfect like that's like any chicken umami jamie we ask all guests on the taste podcast if you could write a book without the burden of time meaning you have no deadline or budget meaning you have all the money in the world so no no deadline this book can be like 10 years what would that book be i think um it would be the spice of life okay and it would be the story of all these spices that we um sort of take for granted and um where they come from what flowers they come from what pods they come from what communities they come from and all their kind of fascination what they do to the local environment soil microclimates like nutrition like um medicinally you know like spices are by weight the most nutrient dense foods on the planet um their history their capacity to be in the area of like food is medicine which is a sort of debatable yes but but their capacity to be well debated is really good and um the constituent parts of these things and how they can help your body flourish what's one chapter or one section what's one spice that you'd want to vanilla i'd have to do yeah i mean i'm just i would do anything to see that yeah hanging yeah it's such a powerful thing and um i've had the the joy of having really good fresh vanilla box like tacky sticky mama-y sort of you don't even know what mama is you do you do you know yeah yeah um sort of um uh but to see that from the motherland whether it's an island or you know yeah so i i think vietnam or madagascar or wherever yeah south india the story of spices is really interesting it is and i guess it's really a story about currency as well because it was traded and swapped and and i mean your country is it was based on the spice trade i mean british people are so funny.

48:19It's like, well, that's just not British. And it's like, dude, like we just come out of Christmas. Like everything about Christmas is not British. Turkey, don't come, that's South America, nothing to do with Britain. You know, like mulled wine. It's like, well, the wine wasn't ours. None of those spices are ours. All the spices and a lot of the fruits and some of those cakes and desserts. But it was about something flash, something exciting, something new, something from another place. That was brought back on those boats. Yeah. Yeah. So I'd love to do but of course recipes to go with it of course the cooking side of it one of the things i love and i don't know if you share this but um i love making a bit of a thing about my spice rack like to me it's like it just means like opportunity and hope and like you can pick up like a chicken leg or like a fillet of fish or a butternut squash like and you go right where are we going?

49:15Like, are we going to say the same old thing or are we going to go on a holiday? So I love the idea that those spices just, and even pestle and mortar, like the oldest gadget in the world, like two rocks. Yeah, it really is. Like it's the coolest, most contemporary gadget going, man. Every house that cooks should have one. And like you take a few of those spices, smash it up, season it up, rub it over something. It's fun to bang shit together too. Let's get real. A hundred percent. Yeah. Jamie Oliver, thank you for joining the Taste Podcast. Thank you very much.

49:57I love seeing your face in the studio. Oh, it's great to be here. Yeah. Well, I've had your book for a while. I haven't grabbed it because we get these air mails from the factory because I work here and I just have had it forever. And I've been like, I want to talk about it, but I can't. I know. You know what I mean? It's really good. Thank you. I want to talk about it too, but I also feel mindful of the like talking about a thing before it's real for too long. And then like by the time it actually happens, you're like, didn't that come out like eight years ago? I know. It feels that way. But I have to just acknowledge I'm in the heat of a deadline myself, book deadline.

50:31But you have done three books in five and a half years. Yes. That's really impressive. Thank you. Yeah, it was supposed to be less than that. Really? Yeah. Yeah, but I deferred one year on this book because, you know, pandemic. Yeah. Have you heard we were in a pandemic? I've heard. I've heard that it's – I've heard many things. Now, that's a big – that's a pace because I think each of your books is unique with art direction, with actual recipe development. But did you feel like you were in a constant hamster wheel with these books? I did for the first two, and that's why I needed that second year.

51:06Because when you think about a calendar year and you say, oh, I come out with a book every two years, that feels like a lot of time between books. But the realization that it's not two years off of making a book. It's, you know, it takes about a year and a half all told, you know, to conceive of the recipes, to test them, to cook them, to shoot them, to write about them, to edit them, to lay out. Like it's many steps in the process. So you're not really ever getting that much time off. Like as my current schedule stands now, if if I continue on the schedule that I'm at, I would have to start shooting the next book towards the end of this year.

51:43Yeah. And like that's shooting with a lot of the manuscript done. Correct. Well, I I shoot and then I write. Oh, really? Let's get into that. So that's interesting. And I want to talk about the art direction in Sweet Enough because it's a slight change from your first two books. I love it. And you definitely went to Coney Island, hung out old dudes. I definitely did do that. Yeah, that was a highlight for sure. Yeah, this book was a little different, I think, because it's a dessert book. And to say nothing of the fact that I don't necessarily think of myself as a person into desserts or like known for them.

52:16It was my first job. That's how I got my start. I was a pastry chef. But it's sort of like not what I became known for. And it's not really what I pursued long term in my career. So I'm like, you know, what is it about desserts? What makes my dessert book different? Like when they're so I was really honestly intimidated to make one because there's so many people that make dessert books that are real bona fide like pastry chefs and and much better bakers than me. And I was just like, well, where do I sit in that category? And I kind of realized I just had to like lean into the the me of it all.

52:50And that's just that desserts are silly. They're superfluous. They're loud. They're they're messy. They're like they exist only to make people happy. And so I really wanted the images to reflect that. So you shoot first, though. So you actually are making them without like a strict recipe and then you're like the dishes, the recipes. But you're also taking them into like locations because clearly you're like shooting in very specific places. Yeah. We kind of went everywhere with this book. I well, I write the recipes first and then I shoot and then I write sort of the head notes and the now, you know, fascia in between.

53:27Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Connected tissue. Yeah. So I do start with recipes, especially with something like baking. With the savory stuff, I don't always. Sometimes I'm winging it. Sometimes it's just like you have a few ingredients and you have a camera and you're just going. Yeah. Yeah. You're like, this feels good. This feels right. I feel that's a great way to write a book. Yeah, I do too. Was like the third book, Dessert Sweets book, like why Dessert for number three? My old editor basically required it. She wanted it to be the second book. Yeah. Yeah. After I think of like the success of the cookies, which was in Dining In, my first book.

54:01Right. She was like, you know, actually, a lot of my favorite recipes of yours happen to be desserts. Like, would you ever consider a dessert book? And I was like, no. Yeah. It was sort of like an immediate no. And then the immediate no got negotiated to third book. But that was, I think, because for me, I really wanted to establish myself as like, you know, sort of a what's for dinner type of resource. Definitely. And that was really important to me. And I think that you can deviate from that after you've set the stage as that being the thing. And I think to do for book two would have felt to neither here nor there.

54:34Right. Like, who is she? What does she do? What's her thing? And I think now people are sort of like, oh, she's a lady who likes pasta and, like, does dinner stuff. But, like, she also makes a book of desserts. And if she can do desserts, then so can I maybe. Well, Sweet Enough certainly nails the ethic because it certainly doesn't say, like, overtly, like, how to make great desserts. or like how like how to make passable desserts. Yeah, right. I mean, it feels like you're in it, but you're not fully in it in the best Alison Roman way. Yeah. To refer to you in the third person, which I think is weird, but I just.

55:03Well, you know, let's go. We're in a room with microphones. We are. What else is weird? But you follow me on that? I don't want it to come off as like negative. No, it's true. I would totally self-describe that way as well. I think that like to come out and acknowledge like this isn't my thing. It used to be professionally. So I sort of know how to do it, but it wasn't like where my heart was necessarily, which is why I deferred. But once I started writing the book and once I started doing it, I was like, damn, this is fun. This feels looser. It feels freer. It feels like more joyful because desserts don't need to exist to sustain us.

55:37And I write about this in the book, but like there's no reason that anyone needs to own this book. And I won't pretend that you do versus a book full of recipes that you're using to sort of feed your family, your friends, yourself. And like, well, it's helpful to have recipes, especially if you don't have the instinct to just kind of riff every day. And inspiration is helpful. But like dessert doesn't it's not a necessity. Yeah. And it feels good. And it felt good to make something where you're like, you got to loosen up. Like we got it. We got to stop taking these things so seriously. Like they're just for fun, like literally just for fun.

56:10Dinner is not just for fun. No. Dinner is something that we need. It's definitely foundational in like living. Yeah. You know, dinner. But dessert, you can definitely live without it. Yeah. And I certainly can. I'm not a person who eats dessert often. It's like not something that I crave. I go salty over sweet whenever given the opportunity. But I think that challenge for someone like me to make dessert delicious enough where I'm like, fuck, that's so good. And I think that I definitely learned that from the people that I learned from working in restaurants. We'll talk about your love of pies and tarts over cakes, cookies and other things.

56:45You have a real hierarchy here. We will get to that. But I want to first talk about some of your media stuff because it's interesting and cool. Travel show. I've seen you in Italy shooting things on social, but there isn't like an announced show. What's going on with that? But where is it? What happened? I mean, honestly, I was like going to end it. We were working with ZPZ. I love those guys. And it's going to be a good show. I feel in my body. So where is it? I can tell you that it is a good show because I've seen it. I've seen the first season. We shot a second season, which is even better than the first.

57:16You shot a first season before anything came out? Oh, yeah. Oh, I love that. Because we had a premiere date and all that. And then CNN decided that they were going to stop airing their original series. I heard. Which is, yeah, public knowledge. But they basically, like, shut it all down. Yeah. And it was, like, right before we were wrapping the second season. I had, like, one more shoot to do. Oh, man. We were in the middle of a promo shoot. I had to be, like, coming soon to CNN. And then, like, coming soon to... Yeah, exactly. I was, like, in full hair and makeup. like in an outfit. It was like a total spectacle.

57:49And like, it was like, we got like word on like a walkie talkie, like, uh, we need to talk. Oh no. We need Allison in the tent. Yeah. Well, cause it wasn't anyone's, theirs decision, you know, and everyone was really heartbroken. And it was like, you know, I guess if you're going to get your show pulled, it's like, well, it's like me and Stanley Tucci are in the same boat. So there was nothing really we could do. So we're, we're in the process of finding it a new home. Um, And hopefully it will get to be seen. So off the HBO, CNN kind of platform. Yeah, Warner Media, I would say, is not going to be the one.

58:24The one. Yeah. Did you do anything on the original premiere date that you announced? Did you have like a fake premiere? The date? You said there was a date? Oh, it was like the weekend of Thanksgiving. So. And then it came and went. And that was like a really emotional day for me. I know. Because I had all my friends. Like I was going to have my friends over. We were going to do this thing. I know. It just also was this, you know, obviously emotionally devastating experience to pour yourself into something and work so hard on it for so many months. Like it consumed my 2022. Like I prioritized it.

58:55It's like it has been my dream for so long to do something like that. And then to have it get so close and then not happen, you're like – and this is not the first time that it has almost happened and then not happened. And so I'm like showbiz, baby. Yeah, it is showbiz. Like, I'm trying so hard to have a good attitude about it. Showbiz. But it is, it sucks. It fucking sucks. Yeah. But it will be aired somewhere. It must. It must be aired. I mean, if it's going to be on Vimeo. Yeah, I'm going to put it into 90-second clips and start a TikTok finally. Oh, or like relaunch Quibi and do it. Oh, yeah.

59:32That sounds good. That worked well. I hope it airs. ZBZ plus Alison Roman. It's cool. Like, I think it'll be good. It's great. Yeah. And I think, like, we did something really interesting. Definitely. and different. Sure. And I think that was sort of like the sort of glue that bind— the glue that binded us together was that we all just sort of collectively decided, ZBZ and myself, like, if we were going to do this, we wanted to do it on our own terms, in a new and different way. We wanted to sort of, like, make something that felt unclassifiable and, like, not repeatable. Yeah. And I think that we did that.

1:00:09And I think it's really good. And I think people are going to love it once they see it. Once they see it. We'll get you back when it is. Yeah, yeah. But I also want to talk about your newsletter. It's like your media savvy is definitely strong. Like you're really good at this stuff. And I think you're welcome. And I've been a paid subscriber for a minute. I didn't even ask for a freebie. Thank you. I do that. You know, it's the way you got to do it. It is true. Joking aside, how did you get your newsletter to actually work? Because I feel like we were in the middle of a pandemic. You put some stuff out in the world, but then it really grabbed people.

1:00:42And I think you should read it. I'll link to it in the show notes. It's a great read. You're an amazing writer. But how do you think about your media newsletter business? Well, thank you. I don't know that I did think about it as a business. It certainly has grown to be one, but... So for me, I think that I was sort of like, you know, in the pandemic having the only option appeared before me and that was to work for yourself. and I had already had a quote sub stack. I think it's so funny. Like I have a sub stack. I'm like, well, you have a newsletter. Sub stack is the platform. It's so weird. But I had a quote sub stack from like 2017 that I just signed up for so I could have a place to like send out information for like my book tour and stuff.

1:01:29And I kind of never ended up using it. I got a column at the Times and, you know, it was sort of like, well, I don't need a sub stack if I have a column in a newspaper, you know, it sort of felt repetitive. And then when I didn't have a column at the newspaper anymore, I sort of was like, well, I don't really feel like I'm going to work for anyone else again. I'm not going to like pitch myself as a column writer. Right. And I realized that what would it look like if I were writing a column really just for myself? Without like the New York Times style. But like because I feel like you were able to really break any form.

1:01:59And we had a lot of us hadn't really known you as that kind of writer when you started really riffing and getting into not just like the cool home cooking technique and tips, but like personal life stuff. Yeah. And I always wanted to. And I felt like I really couldn't do that when you're working for Bon Appetit or the New York Times or whatever. Like you're sort of working on behalf of that vertical or that brand or that magazine or newspaper. And, yeah, I realized that I had never really just said, well, what does it look like when it's just me? And is that interesting to people? And what's funny about the newsletter, to your point, is people were like, I didn't know you could write.

1:02:36That's funny. And I'm like, what are you talking about? That's so fucked up. I wrote like 400 words every other week in the newspaper. And I think people just were like, oh, shallot pasta lady or whatever. And like, you know, as you know, people – I love it when people read the head notes and the essays in a cookbook. You wrote like three stories for taste, man. Yeah. Back in the early days. That's right. You know, you're great. Got a link to those too. Yeah, I'll link to those. Those were fun like 2017 stories that we worked on. Yeah. Yeah. And it's funny because with the newsletter, like the words and the story really are front and center.

1:03:07And you get a lot of types of people that are like, it's the like shut up and cook people. They're like, why? Just give me the recipe people. The I don't need to hear about this people. The people that really have responded so positively and encouragingly about like being honest and vulnerable. And when you don't work for someone else, you're allowed to really be yourself for better or for worse, I think. Do you want to do a collection of essays as like published? I do. That's great because I feel that's natural, like a natural progression. Yeah. And I think that that's, yeah, absolutely. I absolutely do.

1:03:41I have that in me. I'm excited to do that one day. Yeah, one day. I'm a really good editor to push me to be a better writer. Because I think I'm good at the voice and I'm good at being honest. And I just, I know that I'm not, like, I'm not formally trained as a writer. My grammar is shit. Dude, nobody. I need a lot of help. But I want someone to push me to be like, you can be a great writer. Respect that. And that might take 20 years, but I want to get there. Hey, respect that. Now, let's talk about home movie. Shout out to David Cho. Let's talk about. What's up, David? Yeah, right. Home movies is like a different style of show than I think you're talking about the CNN or former CNN show.

1:04:15For sure. I love it. And let me ask you this. Does that concept grow? Do you get more frequency after you do the book release? Because I just feel like home movies is just starting. Like it's just starting. Like I really love it. Thank you. Yeah, we started in 2021. Like early 2021. and I think, yeah, like early 2021. And it's grown and we're so, we have so much fun with it. And I think when you're on a platform like YouTube, you sort of have to make the choice. Like, am I going to play the game? Am I like going for like YouTube superstardom? So true. Or am I just going to like do things on my own terms, even if they're not the most popular?

1:05:00And I think that with everything in my career, I'm like really at a place where I'm like, I just don't know that I have it what it takes emotionally or or in any way to like, quote unquote, be the most popular in any of these like social genres like TikTok and Instagram and YouTube and etc. Like it just takes so much effort and money and time. Yeah. And like a savviness that I don't possess or you. There's no savvy. It's like like the whole algorithm. Yeah. It's a quantity, not quality. Yeah, totally. And it will change the rules all the time. Totally. And I think that once you realize that you're not actually in control, I was like, well, I'm just going to we're just going to make stuff that we like and think is fun and then get advertisers to help us pay for it.

1:05:42Yeah, no doubt. Directly rather than rely on YouTube revenue. I mean, the jump cut style, it's like definitely woven with the Internet and like online culture. It has a real Zeitgeist vibe to it, I feel. But it also is rooted in real cooking. Yeah. Which I like. That's why I like you and many others do is that you actually root everything in real cooking and not fake cooking or performative cooking. Yeah. And that can feel like a Sisyphean task to like get people to give a shit about real cooking when for the most part. Yeah. You know, when for the most part, people are satisfied with consuming content that is just like visually appealing and like fast and quippy and like nice to look at.

1:06:20And I'm so like hell bent on making sure that I feel like I get people to really learn and to like give them the tools to do things on their own without me that I think that also makes me a bad candidate for TikTok. Yeah, I mean, TikTok is definitely not for you. You can learn on TikTok though. People do. Oh. Like people learn a lot of stuff there. I'm not saying that you don't. I just think that for me, like a lot of the like the speed in which you have to show a recipe. I'm like, well, I have more to say. That's why the YouTube format is good. But I fully agree with you. And we're not shading on TikTok because I think that is for food in particular.

1:06:58Yeah. Writing like 800 words about like broccoli roasting techniques, not really ever going to fly ever. I've written that story. I'm like in a like soul searching moment with like writing about cooking, how to cook. I don't think people read it anymore. No, and it literally is a dance like no one's watching. Like that's sort of my attitude now for everything. I'm like, well, do I like it? Is this satisfying to me? And then you find your audience and then like that keeps you afloat. And I think that if you're for everyone, it's probably not very good. It's very well said. Back to desserts. I want to ask you, do I need patience to make desserts?

1:07:35Because I have no patience personally and I just don't make desserts. And I think that's the problem. Unfortunately, I think that you do if you're like really going to get into it. But I am not a patient person. I think we could all use a little more patience generally. Yes. I make plenty of things that like in the book there's like full sections where it's like crush some raspberries with sugar and like spoon it into sour cream and put it in a cute clip. And like that can be dessert. And I think kind of reframing your idea of like what dessert quote unquote is. And it doesn't have to be a performance.

1:08:08It can be like a more it can be a gesture. And I don't go into the like buy candy or like serve a chocolate bar like because I think we all know that you can do that. But there are like sort of the step above that things where it's like roasting bananas with brown sugar in the oven and like calling it a day. It's the perfect moment. And it seems like it's like obvious things. But like, you know, treating your fruit like you would a vegetable is no different. And like so I feel like you can sort of make the leap where you're like I don't bake and I don't do desserts. It's like well do you roast carrots with olive oil in a hot oven?

1:08:41Well you can roast a banana with sugar in a hot oven. Love that. And like it's going to be great. I feel like you were episode two of the Taste Podcast. Your interview with Anna Hiesel at Books Are Magic. Oh wow. For the launch you were number two. We're at like$1.95 right now. And I believe you did say for dessert it is the chocolate bar which I totally love that. Yeah. And I think that that is sort of the undercurrent of what the book is trying to say. It's like these are all great recipes. And like if you want one really awesome chocolate cheesecake recipe that you don't need a mixer for, there's a great one in there.

1:09:13And if you're like, that's the only baking I'll ever do. Great. Yeah. Let's talk about classic versus new. You're right. There are a lot of reasons to attempt a classic dessert, but historically I've found it emotionally easier to double down on making something same but different. What do you mean there? Um, in that I don't love to compete with people's existing, uh, perceptions, fantasies, ideas of what something should be. I love that. And if you give somebody a recipe for a insert classic dessert here, you know, um, I do it once in the book. I do it as there's like a pineapple upside down cake.

1:09:50Yeah. That like, but I feel like that can be different. I mean, that's canonical in like a more pop culture way. Exactly. Like there's not like the idea, but like you can flip it and do the other way. Exactly. Yeah. The right side. Exactly. You can do anything. But like, yeah, you're like, oh, a chocolate chip cookie. Like the amount of opinions about that. Like I could make one and defend it, but I would rather do something same but different. Enter chocolate chunk shortbread. Yeah. Where it's like you can't say whether or not it's a good chocolate chip cookie because it's not a chocolate chip cookie.

1:10:20It's just not. But it has the things that make that thing good. There's a picture and an essay of a double crust fruit pie. in the book, but there's no recipe for one. And that's for two reasons. One, because I've published double crust fruit pie recipes a million times already. And two, because there are a lot of great bakers out there that have wonderful pie recipes. And like, I'm sort of just like, you can't really compete with your vision and idea of what that's going to end up being like, because it's kind of always going to like, have a mind of its own, be messy, be this, be that. And I think I do actually give like vague measurements for that.

1:10:50But I think that for me, I'd rather give you something different that hits you in the same way, like in the pleasure points of like, oh, this reminds me of a blah, blah, blah. Like there's like a chocolate sour cream pound cake that reminds me of a Costco muffin. Yeah. And I'm not, I wasn't going to make a chocolate muffin because to me, I'm like, well, could I ever make a better muffin than a chocolate muffin from Costco? I don't think that I could, but what I could do is make a really delicious, like rich, like densely textured sour cream pancake chocolate that reminds me of that muffin. Yeah, absolutely.

1:11:23Not to promote Costco, but the cheesecake. I'll talk Costco all day. The pumpkin cheesecake at Thanksgiving is like my favorite dessert ever. They can do no wrong. They're an icon of an establishment. It really is and not sponsored. Maybe it will in the future. Speaking of pie, you really do make a strong point about how pies and tarts are like your favorite category. Is that true? Did I read that right? Yeah, I think because they have, to me, like the best ratio of texture. I'm a real crunch girl. Yeah. I love crunchy and crispy and crumbly, like textured things are fantastic. But what's more is that oftentimes like the crust of a pie or a galette or a tart is not sweet, right?

1:12:05Like I have a recipe for a pie crust in there, which I've published a few times because I just can't improve upon it. It's good. Like the copy and paste when you're in like manuscript mode and you like like reps to be 67 of like 120 and you can just go copy paste for one. Yeah. I was like, I'll take it. Let's go. But I also was like, could I make this better? And I was like, I can't. And that's, you know, I use it for savory things and for sweet things. So like to me on balance, like a barely sweetened like custard tart filled in like a press and crust or a pie crust that's like salty and buttery and like just sweet enough.

1:12:40Sorry, I didn't mean to do that. It's rolling off the dice so much. It just happens. It's just like to me a well-balanced tasty little treat. It doesn't feel like decadent or overly sweet or colloing or like too much. Like it just is like, I don't know, you're like, ooh, that hits. Like in the same way that like I really enjoy like, I don't know. I'm just like a salty, crunchy person. What's the least favorite category then? There's got to be a least favorite category. Well, it's not least favorite. It's that, okay, so. You have it. It's there. I see your face. Interestingly enough, I, because as I'm saying these words, I'm like, well, it would stand to reason that I would love cookies.

1:13:22But I don't because they're too dry. Yeah. It doesn't. They don't ever please me the way that other things please me. I love fruit. I love pie crust. I love custard. I love pudding. And a cookie is always like, even if it's a great cookie, if it's great, it's like almost too sweet. And if it's okay, it's like too dry. It's like eating a disc of sand. What about semi-baked? What about when it's like really like quarter baked in the middle cookie? No. It's like if it's quarter baked, like you shouldn't be making a recipe that allows you to bake it fully and have it still be fudgy. I like the math here.

1:13:57It makes sense, yeah. But I also, that was sort of like, there are a lot of amazing cookie bakers in the world, and I'm just not one of them. And I think it's because I don't love cookies that much. Yeah, I like it. They can tell. The cookie can tell. The cookie can tell. Speaking of salt, kosher salt, Diamond Crystal is your hive. Oh, yeah. So tell me why. I mean, I feel like Morton's doesn't get enough love. I like Diamond Crystal. I personally, because we're in the East Coast, you can't find Morton's. I love Morton's as a name. I think the brand is chic. Great blue. It's the best branding. It's fantastic.

1:14:26The girl with the umbrella. I love her. Yeah. We are her. Is it raining salt or rain? I think that it is raining rain. Yeah. But it's evocative of salt. And she's protecting her salt piles. She's like worked in the salt mines. Child labor. She's had a tough life. Because it was the 1920s. Like look at her style of clothing. Well, she looks great. Okay. Where is she now? We must find her. Yeah. Yeah. It just feels better in the hand. Like Morton's is too coarse. Yeah. It's too many crystals per pinch. And Diamond, if you pick it up, you notice and put it in your palm, which I'm like pantomiming right now.

1:15:02I like it. I like it. You can't see what I have. This is a video-free podcast. I know. I like speak as if, you know, always be on camera. No. Put it in your hand, and it has larger flakes and a little bit more crushed salt, so it's like feels like way just more evenly distributed. I would rather you use Morton's than table salt. 100%. And it's actually a really smart recipe development or recipe execution note because they're not the same. No, they're not the same. And if you use a teaspoon of Morton's and a teaspoon of Diamond Crystal, they're not the same. And that's tough. Should be a T-shirt because it's like forgotten all the time.

1:15:40People think they're the same, but they're like, my thing is too salty. And like, oh, shit, you use Morton's. And I do also offer that disclaimer at the beginning of the book. Like if you're sensitive to salt, you might find some of these too salty. But I also know some people that immediately upon looking at a – I interviewed Brooks Headley once in like 2014 or something for a Bon Appetit story. And I remember – like we were talking about like home-cooked recipes and like bakery stuff. And he's like, if I read a book, a recipe in a home-cooked book, I always immediately double the salt. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:16:12Totally. And if you were to do that in my book, you would have a hellish time. It would be way too salty. Yours is totally diet. Yeah, I think so. But I give that same advice for anyone cooking anything of mine or anyone. Like if you trust me once, please try to trust me a second time. And it's like just cook through it or bake through it once and then make any adjustments you want. Definitely. So more sugar, less sugar, more salt, less salt, no spice. Use this fruit instead of that. Like do it as written. Yeah, well, that's why we do the work. See what you like or don't like. Yeah, exactly. And I think that for people to look at a recipe and be like, oh, well, that's never going to work.

1:16:47or that feels like way too much this or that or the other. Just trust because it's also a perspective and I, chances are, have defended the flag that is already being raised. Speaking of Brooks, this is like a funny theme on our show. When the fuck is he going to open Odessa? Oh my God. Come on, guy, open. He's funny. Wouldn't it be funny if it just never did and it was just like, it's like an NFT. It like lives on like in this ethereal space and no one can have it. Well, it lives on an Instagram. It's like only on Instagram. It's killing me. It's an Instagram. I wonder how many people just stop by.

1:17:19Should we just stop by? I mean, I've emailed him a few. He's going to be on the show soon, but it's funny. It's going to be great. It's going to be great, but also so annoying because it's going to be impossible to get in. I know. And you're going to run into everyone you know, and it's going to be like a whole thing. I know. You're so grumpy. Oh, my God. Listen to me. I mean, it's part of a restaurant culture in New York right now. It's just really hard to book and get into places. You just simply can't. You simply can't. Allison, we ask all cookbook authors to talk about the very last recipe in the book because no one ever asks you about that last recipe.

1:17:49No one ever asks you. And your last recipe on page 293 is a salty vanilla frosting. It shares a bed with tangy chocolate frosting, which sounds great too. So let's talk about that. Let's give it like a little bit of love, that last recipe. Well, I trick you because it appears earlier in the book. So you have to acknowledge its presence. But I didn't even realize that that was happening. But that's smart. I'm forcing you to look at the last recipe in the book before you even know it's the last recipe. And then you're going to like flip the other way and you're going to meet in the middle where you were reading before.

1:18:19Yeah. To me, that frosting is like my answer to the like Betty Crocker, Duncan Hines, Pillsbury in a can. It's like deliciously vanilla-y. It's like salty, but not in a way that you're like, is that savory? Like it just is salty because most processed foods are very salty. We just don't realize it. And so I said that like I'm uncovering a deep secret. Like everyone knows that. But like it does to me like it is saltier than the average like home frosting. It's not a buttercream. It's not a Swiss meringue. It's to me like a beautiful, extremely easy to make all purpose white vanilla-y frosting that goes really well with the cold carrot cake or the chocolate sheet cake or the yellow sheet cake.

1:19:04Like any sort of like I've done it like on – I made like big sheet pan of shortcake. Yeah. Which is a recipe also in the book. and instead of doing like a cobbler or like, you know, any sort of like shortcake whipped cream thing, I'd used frosting because that's what I had. And it was like a bit overkill because like the textures are a little dense, but God, it was so good. It was unbelievable. Let's get the tangy chocolate frosting one line. What's the tang part of it? Sour cream. Yeah, so it's like the sour cream chocolate. Why does that work so well? I mean, I've never really asked anyone, like why do we love that so much?

1:19:37I think we love it because sour cream is giving you acidity while also giving you fattiness. And chocolate is actually very acidic. If you eat a piece of chocolate on its own, it does the same sort of like back end of your mouth, like salivation that that sour items do. Like chocolate is high in acidity. And I remember when I was a pastry chef, we used to taste chocolates based on their like acidity versus their roastiness versus their, you know, and you taste it and the notes look like coffee or wine tasting. Oh, this is like a low acid, high, you know, coffee flavored chocolate. And like this is a low, you know, high acid, almost tastes like berries or whatever.

1:20:14And like, you know, it's difficult to account for what chocolate people are going to use. But I think sour cream goes well with any chocolate because it's going to augment the fat if you're, say, using something like a 60 percent versus a 72 percent, which is going to have less fat. And it's going to augment the acidity if you're using something that's maybe on the flatter, more roasty side. Got it. Is there a brand that you go to for baking specifically, chocolate brand? I like Guitard. I'm a Valrhona girl professionally, but in the home, I'm a Guitard. Yeah. Okay. So there's two sides of the coin.

1:20:47Yeah. But also, sorry, a plug real quick is that the box of Guitard, forgive me if I'm saying that wrong, the bars that they sell, it's like three beautifully wrapped thin bars and it's three two ounce bars. So six ounces of chocolate, which is exactly the amount of chocolate you need for the chocolate chunk shortbread cookie. So I remember when I was making a lot of those at the time, like for promo purposes. Yeah. I would just buy those and I knew that I had the right amount of chocolate. I was like, oh, this is the right amount of chocolate. I don't have to have a scale to measure anything.

1:21:16I like it. I like it. Okay, a few more questions. Thank you for your time. Now, you're heading out on the road. There's been a few probably cancellations or delays because of the pandemic, but I think folks listening to the show will like to know where you're heading and where you're looking forward to going for the first time. Do you have any spots that you haven't been? Oh, my gosh. I am going a few places. I am I'm announcing this on I think the 28th. So this should be out. Yeah, it'll be common knowledge by then. But yeah, I'm doing like a small issue. I'm doing New York, D.C., San Francisco, Seattle, Portland, L.A., Chicago.

1:21:52Great cities. Yeah. Choices made. Yeah. Choices made. I know we really I really wanted to go to Minneapolis, but we couldn't fit it in in the schedule. But the reason that that feels so tight is because the week after I'm going to the U.K., I'm going to London. Okay. I'm going to Amsterdam. Interesting. And then I come back from that trip, have like a week off. If anyone tries to do anything with me during that week, I'll tell them I'm unavailable. Yeah, yeah, definitely. Rest and relaxation. I'm sleeping. And then I'm going to Australia. Oh, wow. Like Oprah style. I'm going to Australia. Yeah, I'm doing three cities in Australia.

1:22:24I'm doing Melbourne, Sydney, and Brisbane. Great cities. Long flight to Brisbane. Yeah. Long flight. I'll have to confirm this before we air it, but I am doing an event at the Sydney Opera House. That's cool. How major? I feel like you're made for that. You're built for that. I might be. I don't know. It's often easier to talk to that many people than it is to one person. But I love going on tour. I love doing book events. This tour is the biggest one I've done. I'm doing like full theaters rather than bookstores, which I've never done before. I think the first two books I was also doing a lot more like cooking and pop-ups and dinners and things like that.

1:23:01And while great, it also ran me into the ground. And I wasn't really able to talk to that many people. And I think I love I love to talk. You love people. I love people. And I love you. Yeah. And I think at this point, being able to talk to a person, you know, a moderator and, you know, effectively do what we're doing right here. But on a bigger scale, it feels like people get to ask questions in the audience and it feels really intimate and personal. And it's like a moment in a conversation that lasts only for that night. And it doesn't I don't know. It just like injects humanity back into the process.

1:23:34I love live events. I'm definitely willing to be booked for Portland. Just saying I'm there. Oh, great. I'll fly out. I'm there. Perfect. But I think you're right. And I love that you're kind of getting out of the cooking and just like letting it be, letting yourself be you and like talk to people and be open with the moderator, right? And I feel like that's definitely going to be the style of event that your fans and your friends will like. Yeah. And I think that beyond just like the cooking technique or baking information, there's just like so much that goes into a career or these books or the process and just like current state of, quote, media.

1:24:11Yeah, right. Or anything. Like I just think there's so much to dive into in like a in a genuine way. Yeah. Well, we'll definitely link to your website, which will have those do-or dates. Yes. Definitely book by the book. Books are magical. We'll be selling your book. Shout out to Emma. Mike. Emma, I think we sold so many books. My publisher, my publisher, LOL. We're in the building right now. We're in the building. My publisher, too. Same publisher. Clarkson Potter. They said that the indie pre-orders were out of control. Like more so than usual, I think, in comparison to an Amazon or Barnes & Noble, which I love Amazon and Barnes & Noble.

1:24:47I know you do. We all do. But I just think it's really great that the people buying my book are like also it's important to them to buy from an independent bookstore. Yeah. Is there any more to shout out? I know you just said books are magic. Off the top of your head, are there any independent stores that you can pre-order your book at? Yeah, Books and Books. Yeah. Skylight. Love that. Books and Books is doing signed pre-orders for stock, and Skylight will be, I'm partnering with for the event. Very cool. Omnivore in San Francisco, of course. Celia. Celia, shout. We love Celia. Gotta love Celia.

1:25:18Book Larder. Yeah. In Seattle, right? In Seattle. Powell's in Portland. Sixth and I in D.C. and I forget the name of the Chicago one. It doesn't matter. Booksellers listening to this show, respect Allison for knowing all these bookstores. I love independent bookstores. I do too. We're huge fans of reading books from independent bookstores and buying books from their duty. It's really important, and I saw somebody the other day say something about a person who's like plugging their own book for someone else to preorder, and it's like I preorder a lot, and I think that it buys me good preorder karma, but I also just know that it is important to like the publisher and the author because with Dining In, the pre-order numbers were not very strong and then we ran out of copies twice so yeah we can't run out people we got we have to make sure they're printing it gets your reservation yeah do you agree with your mag assessment that you don't have to read your friends books um it depends how many friends you have and what books they're writing i have friends that write books where i'm like i love you i'm never gonna read that you're just being transparent well that's just like if i'm not interested in the topic or it's like you know it doesn't change how i feel about you as a friend and they know that i have do you know how many friends i have that have never even cracked yeah Alice in Roman production.

1:26:23They've definitely bought it. They're a great friend, though. Yeah, they're a great friend. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I think you can buy it without reading it. I agree. That's the compromise. You have to buy your friend's book. Yeah. It's a small luxury. It's not a lot of dough. No, I want to fill my shelves and my apartment with books my friends have written, things my friends have made, clothes my friends have made. I feel like supporting people in your life is super important, and you can do that financially without, or even just visibly in your space and talking about it without being like, yeah, I read that book.

1:26:51Love it. Alison, a few more questions. We have to ask everyone who comes in from New York, give me three restaurants right now. We just talked about like booking is impossible, but just you have to give three spots, please. Three spots. That you really like right now. That I really like right now. Restaurants. This is like the story of my life. I know, exactly. People are always hitting you up. It's terrible. People are going to eat me. Yeah, I mean, it's fine. Right now, like I'm just thinking about where I've been recently and where I continue to want to go back to. Great. Um, frankly, for a special occasion, I took my mother for her birthday, her 70th, La Rock.

1:27:24Yeah. Can't be beat for a special occasion. Yeah. They make you feel good. The food is excellent. It's a restaurant for adults by adults. Yeah. It's fun. Rock center. Energetic. Feels very New York. Definitely. Um, it's, it's not an everyday situation. That said, for expensive restaurants, my tip is always to eat at the bar, have one drink and a snack, just experience the energy and then, you know, decide when you want to spend the money to get there. Or get something to take you. Yeah. Or get something to take you. Business meeting. Woo's wonton Yeah, woo's is good I love it It's BYO You can have an absolute blast I spend many holidays there Yeah I've done Valentine's there with friends Christmas Eve with friends Birthdays Just a random Tuesday Like I think that it's just fun The energy and I love it Are you half duck, whole duck?

1:28:11I'm a half duck Yeah But it also depends on who I'm with If they've had it or not Yeah But I'm like, I do the crab. I do like the house special crab. Always good there. The black bean clams with XO. Recently we ordered the like tiny anchovy with garlic chives, which is actually on the wall. There's a picture of it. Oh, cool, cool, cool. Shockingly delicious. Tiny anchovies. I would imagine they're fresh anchovies, right? So they don't taste fishy at all. Exactly. They're not briny. They're not salted. They're not cured. They're not pickled. They're like barely a fish. It's like little crispy sticks.

1:28:43Mostly chive. Yeah, mostly chai, but really fantastic. I love it. And the third restaurant, gosh, I don't know. I can't get in anywhere. The other day, my friends and I went to four places. We were turned away from every one. Yeah, it's challenging. Those impromptu hangs in New York are long gone. I know. Yeah. But, like, I go to Servo's a lot because they just consistently kill it. The vibe is also great. Also hard to get into. Always hard. I love Keen's. Keen's is, like, forever my number one. Ribeye or mutton? Oh, ribeye. Thank you. I had a conversation with your friend. The mutton is not good.

1:29:14It's fine. It's good. It's good if you're there for lunch. It's fine. I hate to say it's not good. If you're there with enough people, I like a mutton for the table. Mutton for the table? Just, like, throw the extra mutton on for the table? Otherwise, I'm in Porterhouse for two for up to four people. Because even three people, one Porterhouse is too much meat. Too much meat? Too much meat. The portions at a steakhouse are so massive. It gets you in a mood, I think. Thank you for those. I have to shout out Moonburger up in Kingston. Oh, love Moonburger. You, I've been many times just like driving on the way to the highway.

1:29:45I, it's a vegan hamburger and vegan shake restaurant. Well, it's, we, we talk about it like it's just a really great burger restaurant. I should, yes. Because we do, we do use dairy. We use American cheese. Oh, I'm sorry. And Cooper's Sharp. I totally fucked that up. No, no, it's okay. I always assumed it was vegan, but then it was American cheese on it. No, but that's okay if you do because there are plenty of things for vegan. Okay. Like our buns are vegan. Yeah. The sauce is, the sauce is vegan. like we try to like make it so that it's easily veganized but like if you want a cheeseburger you can get a cheeseburger but yeah we use all impossible meat my friend Jeremy started it last year and he asked me and some other friends to be on the board of advisors and he assembled like a really cool team of people that have worked in magazines and other restaurants my friend Anup my friend Emil my friend Danielle and like we you know are cheering him on and giving him advice whenever he needs it, but he's doing an amazing job.

1:30:38The team is great. I was just there yesterday, actually doing some like tasting for new stuff because they're launching in New Paltz. Oh, they have a second location. I was wondering if that was going to happen. Yeah. Yeah, they got the location. Where are New Paltz? I forget. It's not a drive-thru. It's going to be a sit-down. It's going to be a sit-down. Yeah. Great town, New Paltz. But we were just like, how do we make like not eating animal protein the norm and like not, like making sure people didn't miss it. Yeah. But then having moments where you can have a little bit of animal protein if you're cool.

1:31:06Yeah, like milk and cheese. Like milk and cheese. Like American cheese. My favorite animal protein. Good for the burger. Yeah. How's upstate life? Are you opening something up there? Upstate life is great. Yeah, so I bought a property in 2021.

1:31:22I bought it in 2020, closed in 2021, and it was sort of like in the, you know, obviously in the pandemic, and I was just like, what is life? What is my job? What is my career? and really felt like I wanted to have a – I'd been looking at property like pre-pandemic and then the pandemic happened and I got like way priced out because everybody panic bought. But this was sort of a special little spot in the area that I have been going to for a number of years. I actually wrote all of my books in the area. Oh, right on. Yeah. So I've been like – have like a special place in my heart but finally decided to like put a ring on it as it were.

1:31:58And yeah, I'm going to open a pantry store. in the bottom, which is like my dream. I've like forever just wanted to own a grocery store. And it's like not a specialty store. My goal is to have the most like basic shit possible. Like I wanted to, I'm so obsessed with, what's the word I'm looking for? Like pragmatism and like - Utilitarianism. Yeah. Like I just love utility so much. And I really got fatigued with this like onslaught of, you know store in any city in the country and abroad where you're like walk in and you're like what are these things and like the new york mag shoppy shop i know it was really good i it really killed um shout out emily um two references new york mag wow that's like they they're they really are leading the convo as it were they are they're good they are good um but yeah like a place that you can go and buy everything you need to make for dinner and i kind of just wanted it to be like a big version of my own pantry and use it as a way to like highlight you know or may or rather make accessible a lot of the farms in the area because a lot of the places sell their meat out of like chest freezers and it's sort of an honor system.

1:33:03But if you're visiting in the area, Airbnb for the weekend, you don't really know where to go. You don't know like what road to drive down to like get the good chicken. But I can buy directly from those farms. I have chest freezers to store the meat in and you can buy it at that store. I love that. I can't wait to visit. It seems like the kind of thing that Upstate is needing is not like the cute this or that, but like a real utilitarian grocery store, but also with a little bit of a point of view. Yeah. Yeah, I hope it has personality. Because like ShopRite. Well, that's the thing. It's like I love Price Chopper and I'll go all the time because I have to.

1:33:32But I think if I could go somewhere closer, that would be great. And if I could go somewhere that had a bit more of a community energy and like, you know, a bit more point of view and like a bit more pleasant of an experience than like a big box store. So what's inspiring you right now? Food. Grocery stores. Yeah, seriously. Shopping. We're talking about like cookbooks or food creators or people on the fringes. I just wanted to ask you generally if you had a few names, people you like. Yeah, I, you know, I have been sort of like head down blinders on. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Especially in food because I feel, me personally, I get very overwhelmed with the things that other people do.

1:34:14And I start second guessing myself and I start, it's like, honestly not good for my mental health. Yeah, yeah. I'm just being like, is that a thing that I should be like? I get it. It becomes very tough. And I know a lot of people struggle with that. Yeah. So it's hard to keep your eyes open and stay inspired in your own category when you feel like it's just like a competition to like do more, more, more and like flashier and punchier and this, that and the other. So honestly, I've just been trying to like read books. Love that. I'm reading How to Do Nothing. It's not going well. Great thing to do when you're like planning a book tour, wrapping a book, doing it.

1:34:50Well, that's the thing is like I'm also just trying to like instead of being like how do other people do X? I traditionally have really tried to like quiet that question and be like how would I want to do it if nothing else mattered? And like figure out the answer to that first before like looking around and asking those questions. I really appreciate the honest answer. Like for real, that's like a great answer. No, for real. You didn't have to like stunt and say this person, that person. You're like real that. It's definitely. I love what other people do. Of course. And I just also know that like at the period, the place that I'm in right now, it feels like there's too much repetition.

1:35:25Okay. And I think that in order to like make sure that I'm not contributing too heavily to that, I'm like doing something that feels genuine to myself and not reactionary to what someone else is doing. Like that. But Allison, we asked all guests in the Taste podcast if you could write a cookbook or food culture book without the burden of time, meaning you have no deadline, or the burden of budget, meaning you have all the money in the world. What would that book be? Well, I know that if I had all day, I'd take all day. You know? I know. So I'm like, well, if you were like, you have a book that's due in five years, guess what?

1:35:57I would do that book in the last six months of five years from now. Like, I wouldn't, like, take five years to do it. So you do no book. It'd be nothing. Well, I think like, I don't know. I saw that question you had like posited earlier and I was thinking about it because I don't think you need a huge budget to make a great book. I love the way that you do books and like the travel aspect and like you kind of like learn as you're going and like are able to sort of do a hybrid of reporting and documenting. And that's really cool. I think that one day to do something like that would be really awesome where like the onus isn't on me necessarily to like write the recipes but to sort of like study the way that other people cook in their home throughout the world and just like have the budget to travel and like see how things are done because – well, yeah, I guess to answer your previous question, the people I'm most inspired by is people – old people that cook at home.

1:36:49And when traveling and doing this show, I met so many people and farmers and cooks and just regular people that like are excellent home cooks. And those are always the people that I learned the most from. Oh, I love the answer. Peacock, Travel Channel, CBS. It's definitely a cooking show and like with a travel bent. But some episodes, there's no travel at all. Oh, so it's in the studio standing. No, no studio. I filmed it upstate. Oh, so it's in a home, but like Jamie Oliver style. Yeah, there's travel components, though. So it's like we do sort of like leave the kitchen to go learn about stuff.

1:37:22So it's like. Where is this going to land? It has so many places it can land. I know. It's really special. It's a special show. And I think very, very informative. And I learned so much filming it. Yeah. It was kind of like I got to ask every question I've had about like an ingredient or a process. And like we then got to answer the question. It's so dope. I cannot wait to watch it. I can't wait for you to watch it either. Alison Roman, thank you for joining the Taste Podcast. Of course. Thank you so much for having me.