313: The Perfect Loaf with Maurizio Leo

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0:31The biggest thing I think is people will almost always underproof their dough. You know, if you haven't done it yet or you haven't baked with someone else or taken a class, I think most beginners underproof and then they get that loaf that like explodes in the oven and they have like huge holes on the interior. This is taste. I'm your host, Matt Rodbarg.

0:59Mauricio Leo is the big bread brain behind The Perfect Loaf, an incredibly popular online community of bread fans and home bakers. He's also the author of The Perfect Loaf, The Craft and Science of Sourdough Breads, Sweets, and More, a baking book, winner of both James Beard and IACP Awards, and really an instant classic. On this episode, we talk about what excites Mauricio in bread today and his unique journey to teaching and also writing cookbooks. I hope you enjoy this conversation.

1:38Marisa, Leo, this is Tace. How are you doing? I'm doing great. Yeah. It's great to see you and have you in the studio. You're in town for IACP. You're nominated. Let me ask you about New York. Like, you know, when you land in a city and you're checking out the city's bread scene, what do you like to think about when you're making your list? Because I know we talked a little bit where you've been so far, but how do you figure that all out? I think for me, the first thing I do is I always reach out to bakers I know that I can reach through Instagram or even email. I always ask them first, like, where should I go?

2:10because they usually have an inside track on the better places or the places that I kind of have to see. So I start there and they usually give me a good itinerary. But then whenever I go to the place, I usually like to just explore and ask people, like where are you getting your bread? Because a lot of times I think people have their favorite bakery that they go to and it's kind of a routine or a ritual that they get into. That's always, those are my two steps. Yeah. So you're like definitely doing the intel with like the big baker guys and just word on the street. Let me ask you, is there a bread that you just seek out?

2:47Is there like a, or a pastry that you seek out when you're traveling? Because you travel a lot for your book work and also other work. In terms of pastry, it's always just a croissant, I think. Yeah. You know, the perfect breakfast item. If I'm really searching, I might look for an Italian cornetto, which is a little bit different. It's a specialty, kind of hard. I think it's hard to find here in the States, but those are my two kind of go-to for pastry. For bread, you know, I have to say a baguette is the classic baguette. And it's hard to find a good one, like one that's made, I think, you know, truly like French style.

3:29Yeah. With, you know, the bien couille, like the outer crust and just. Right. Now, I mean, when you eat baguette, though, are you like disappointed into the fact where you're just going to maybe put to the side and not eat it? I don't know if I ever really do that. I just love, you know, bread in all forms. Unless it's like, you know, super subpar. But if you're going to a reputable bakery, like, and I feel like those are always a focus for a bakery because it's just like one of the most purchased breads and it makes such a great sandwich. But I think maybe second to that would be if it wasn't like a large loaf of bread, it'd be like a focaccia.

4:09Oh, yeah. For me, that's what I grew up eating just as a snack, you know, all the time or for sandwiches. so that's we'll get into your history and your family's history in Albuquerque and I love your history and your Pizzolo past and all that but last question about New York what's your assessment of the bread scene here are you excited to try any bakeries here we have a lot of listeners who tune in they want picks from our expert guests what do you think? I think there's probably so many bakeries that I need like a month here to even scratch the surface but I'm doing kind of a pop-up in a couple days here with Mel the Baker.

4:50Yeah, dude, nice. Yeah, I'm excited to try her, I think, donuts and things. So I'm super pumped for that. And then actually just last night I got recommended bread and salt bakery. Oh, yeah. So, yeah, I have a list that I kind of want to go through and see what I can do. Yeah, if you can get back to Jersey City to get Rick Easton's bread and salt sandwiches and focaccia. if you can get there. But you were at Ratza last night. Right. Talk about that. It was amazing. I mean, I think it was... Really, as advertised. I had an idea for what the pizza was going to be like, but you can't ever, you know, seeing pictures and videos, it doesn't capture kind of the essence of, you know, the crust and how fresh the ingredients are.

5:35And, you know, we talked with Dan for a while about the ingredients And, you know, his passion just kind of like, you know, it's so evident that he really cares about, you know, the food. So that pizza was amazing. Yeah. How do you describe it? To me, it's challenging because it's not Roman. It's not like it's own version. But it's more, leans more Roman in terms of like the thickness of the crust and the way the crust kind of works and flakes and snaps a little bit. that's maybe not the right word, but it's definitely more than neo and pan. But what do you think? We were talking about that. You know, we were saying the flavors are amazing, but it's the texture.

6:17Totally. Of just how crisp it is. And it's not, you know, we're not talking like crack or crunchy. It's this weird, we were talking about that fine line. You know, it's all done in the wood-fired oven. So it's like, it's not burned for sure, But it's like there's just such a fine line when you're working with high heat like that. You know, he nails it. He nails it. Seconds, seconds, you know, can change the pie. Let's go back a little bit. You come from a pizza family in Albuquerque, New Mexico. I want to ask you, how was your upbringing and working in a pizzeria? How did that inform your bread baking and your journalism?

6:58because in writing, because I know you didn't work in food media for most of your career. You've had other careers. So how did that inform you? Yeah, I grew up, you know, at my dad's restaurant as a kid. What's it called? Mimos. Mimos Ristorante. You can call it Ristorante. That's right. Yeah, it's like a typical Italian-American restaurant, you know, almost cliche now, but beautifully so. You know, you walk in and it feels like a family's place, you know. I mean, we were there running around, my brother and I, as we grew up in the restaurant. And I think it's one of those things where you're just around, you know, since you grow up in it, you're just around it.

7:43And it's like, you know, watching my dad make pizza all day or watching the, you know, cooks, whatever they're making, whatever pasta they're making that day. um i i think it it um even though i didn't go into the food industry you know through school i think it was always there kind of like pulling me back in that direction pulling always pulling you back but you ended up what what did your career where did you land i know you've developed apps and you've worked um early internet you're an internet early internet guy vague vague description of what you did but but like and you talked about you just said how the restaurant world and food rule is always tugging at you but where do you end up what was your career or is your career yeah i i actually went into software engineering so i've always had this personality for precision and measurement and algorithms kind of thing and i got i got interested in like early days when the internet was it was like aol and yeah you know dial up and it everything was emerging it was super exciting and i just i was drawn to like technology and i don't know if it's because Because, you know, my parents, they got us an early computer.

8:52And I think maybe because it was something so new and so different and kind of away from what my parents did, maybe that was part of the draw. But, yeah, I went to school for computer science. I got my undergrad and grad degree there. And I was working, you know, at a college, I worked at a defense contractor. I was doing, like, drone development. before drones were available everywhere. They were probably like$50 ,000 to start. And they were huge. It was like a trash can size. Wow. And it was great. It was fun. And during that time, I was doing stuff online, writing, making websites, and designing things.

9:33And my focus has always been kind of like usability. So I focused on like, I feel like it was before UX, like user interface design. Was it an actual trade? Exactly. Were you like an early blogger? Were you on the blogger platform? It's funny because I can remember like right out of college, this was like 2003. Yeah. I started a website where I was just writing and I, but I didn't really have anything to, any passion to like write about, you know? So you were like blogging. I was blogging like really, I mean, that's pretty early. And there are sites for sure that were back, you know, from back then.

10:11But I can remember even before that, I want to say 19, well, it's probably 2000. And I made the first website on like GeoCities. Yeah, totally. It was a soccer website because I was a big soccer player. Like English? Yeah, Italian. Oh, Italian. And so I did all the Italian teams, you know, the Serie A. Yeah. So, you know, when you're publishing stuff online, I think you got to have what's your interest at the time and what is your passion about? and it's kind of like your platform for writing. Were you an early food internet guy? Were you on like Chowhound? I wasn't. Yeah. Or any of those other.

10:48I didn't come back to food until kind of a little bit after that. I got it. Yeah. So you developed some apps and are you still in that software development world right now? I am, but it's shifted now. Now I'm kind of doing more food. I wrote an app called, well, me and two others wrote an app called Skyview. Yeah, Skyview, of course. And that's one of your, it's your app, which is a stargazing app, what do you call it? It is, that's right. Yeah, and it's, you know, we released it in, well, it's been, I think, 12 years. So right when the App Store came out, we released it. And I still kind of dabble in software, and I do love the engineering aspect and kind of architecting things that way.

11:31And it's had a big impact on people. Like, it's, you know, it's one of those things where, I feel like one of the reasons we wrote the app is because people stopped kind of going outside to see the stars and things. And it's been something I've always been interested in, too. Is there an app that we've not yet had in the food space that you feel broadly could actually be an app? Because, like, apps are a little bit, I think it's, like, down a little bit. And everyone's now more, it's, like, Web 2. Yeah. Web 3, actually, with crypto. But is there, like, an app that you think would work? I think there's always space for it.

12:08I'm working on one. Oh, here we go, guys. Okay, let's reseal. What can you say? I love it. Yeah, it's definitely bread-centered right now, at least for the first version. Hoping to release it later this year. And I think there's always space for like a native app. You know, web interface is amazing, but sometimes, and especially when you're in the kitchen, You just want something focused on the task that you're doing and not have to like flip through web pages or refresh or whatever. Like you want to take notes or you want to plan what you're going to bake that day. Put it in the app and it's waiting for you as fast as possible.

12:47Love that. I mean, it's so true. I mean, the biggest food media outlet right now is an app. It's New York Times Cooking. Yeah. Like undeniable. And Epicurious is pretty close too. I can't wait. That sounds great. Yeah, it's fun. It's a killer app for bread. Yeah. Okay, I got a simple question. I know it's not a simple answer. But where do I, me being somebody who's interested in food but maybe not a big home cook, where do I start my journey for baking bread? It's really hard to wrap my head around like starting. I think it's intimidating for a lot of people. and that's one of the reasons why I started my website you know 10 years ago is because for me I was you get kind of like thrown in especially if you haven't done anything that's has any kind of leavening like any kind of yeasted breads or anything I think it is intimidating for people so despite all that I think the best way to get started is really just to get in there and and do it like once you get over like what's the worst that can happen kind of thing like just get in there, mix some flour and water and go.

13:57And if you want to do sourdough, which is how I started, I think it's a harder path. Good point. Yeah, it is a harder path. But I think if it interests you, natural fermentation, you know, all the flavor and everything you get from that, then you can always get your starter from a friend. Yeah. Everyone's got a little sludgy starter in the back of their fridge. That's right. So you don't have to worry about that part. Just Take some and, you know, mix it together and bake it. Like, it really, it doesn't have to be as intimidating as it sounds. It's, you know, what's the worst that can happen? Exactly.

14:31Bread machines, what do you think? I haven't ever used one. Okay, enough said. I'm just kidding. I'm cool with it, though. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think at the end of the day, it's like, you know, people baking bread instead of, you know, buying industrialized bread. Like, let's do it, whatever it is. If it's a bread machine, like, that's cool. What is something you wish you knew when you first started baking bread and specifically sourdough? Yeah, there's, it has to be temperature. Good. Temperature just absolutely rules like all aspects of fermentation. So if you have an idea for just the simple effect of, you know, warmer temperature increases fermentation activity, like even just that is powerful.

15:17Having a thermometer, I think, helps a lot, not mandatory. But for me personally, like when I started baking and I got my thermometer, it changed the game because I was like, okay, this dough isn't as warm as I thought it was. You know, maybe that's a reason why this thing is taking so long. There's just such a strong correlation between like successful baking and monitoring your dough temperature. And it really hit your skill set, you know, having that data component. Absolutely. I mean, so that's the unlock for you is like, you know, there's actually data here. Wow. There's numbers on the board.

15:52Yeah. It really plays into my engineering side and kind of curiosity. Now, when you talk about thermometer, are you talking about like a digital probe into the dough? Yeah. Those are pretty affordable, right? You can, I mean,$10 maybe. Yeah. I mean, you can get them anywhere. It doesn't have to be like a fancy bread one or barbecue one or anything. So, yeah, get that thermometer. And what about oven temperature? Let's talk about that. I feel that's something we maybe don't always, we rely on the knob, the knob or the digital screen even. Right. It's maybe not the best. When I first started baking in my old house, it was a really old electric oven.

16:30And I set it to 450 degrees Fahrenheit and my bread was like over baking every time. And I'm like, I know I'm doing this right. I put a thermometer in there and sure enough, it was like way higher than I thought. So that it's a common thing. Yeah. Get, you know, get a thermometer in there and make sure, especially if it's an older oven. Let's go back to when you first started teaching people to bake bread. What is the biggest mistake that bread bakers make? And we just talked about temperature. Seems like a huge point, but there's probably other factors that you just repeatedly see. And if you go to The Perfect Loaf and you go to your website, you see so many comments, people asking questions.

17:11It's great to see that community, too. Yeah. Yeah. The biggest thing I think is people will almost always underproof their dough. And, you know, if you haven't done it yet or you, you know, you haven't baked with someone else or taken a class, you don't have that. Well, it's tactile for sure, but you kind of build this intuitive sense for fermentation and the dough. and so I think most beginners underproof and then they get that loaf that like explodes in the oven and they have like you know huge holes on the interior and what like not the desirable crumb but like the big like the termite crumb yeah yeah and you can almost like now now I can just you know I can pick it out immediately and and that's like probably my most answered email it's like you need to give the dough more time and especially in in bulk fermentation that first rise that's usually when the underproofing happens.

18:05So proofing is essentially the sitting out. Just leaving it. Leaving it. Leaving it rest. And it's usually just on the counter? It can be on the counter. If it's cold in your kitchen, then, you know, I usually put it in my oven that's turned off with the light on. It's a perfect little proofing chamber. Yeah, that makes sense. And you don't have to look at it. It's just like there. Yep. And just put a little sticky on, you know, don't turn the oven on kind of thing. Let me ask you about the community in The Perfect Loaf. I think there's like a micro narrative that during the pandemic, sourdough was big and there was like sour bros, which is a funny term.

18:43And like there was a big pop and then, and certainly we saw book sales rise then, pun intended. But there has been some narrative that sourdough is like out of fashion, whatever you may see. I've seen that online, that chatter. Tell me that this is incorrect. Because I just look at the comments and I see they're in the hundreds and when you post an article on The Perfect Loop. Yeah, I mean, from my perspective, I don't think it's I mean, certainly from the height of pandemic when everybody was locked down and, you know, baking at home. I mean, that was like astronomical increase. But I mean, year over year, like there's just been a lot more bakers that have come in, especially now.

19:22There's still I think there's still a lot of attention. and, you know, the people that started baking during the pandemic, you know, maybe some of them have dropped off because it is, you know, it does require some time. Like you need to be at home and you have to, you know, you have to monitor this thing and care for it. But I mean, I can just say for sure, like my audience has definitely grown and there's a lot more Baker kind of interaction and people in the membership. Yeah. I figured you would say that. And it seems like just from our publishing, we've seen books continue to come and there's successful.

19:56Talk about your membership. How does that work? It's cool that you've built a community around bread baking, but what is, what is it like? How do you interact with them? It's been amazing, actually. I, I started it way back in 2018. So it's been, it's been around for a while. Pre-substack. Pre-substack. I think maybe like near when Memberful and Patreon and those things were kind of taking off. I didn't have an expectation that there would be, you know, I have, you know just shy of like 2 000 members at this point and it's it's just an incredible community of yeah of passionate people who you know i don't want to say bread nerds but it kind of feels that way like in the best way you know what i mean like we just we're on discord is is kind of how we chat nice you have a discord yeah and it's been great like you know i before i came to new york i sent out a message like hey i'm gonna be in new york and you know people are like i'll meet you there It's just a great kind of like friendship.

20:53I really feel like that. So Discord, for those who don't know, it's kind of like a glorified chat room in many ways. Yeah, or like a Slack channel, but public. What are some of the topics on Discord that are hitting right now? There's always sourdough starter discussions. People will post pictures like what's happening here, what's wrong. Nice. I mean, we have topics on every facet of scoring, shaping. different kinds of recipes that, you know, members are posting. And then I'll try them in my kitchen. I'll post things that I'm, you know, in research and development, you know, stage. So it's fun.

21:31Yeah. I can't wait to do what we're going to talk about now. But we're in early talks, mid talks, we'll say, about maybe doing a trip. And I want to get your sense. Taste Travels has been super successful. We had a beautiful trip with Susie Carace last June in Puglia or this June. That would be. Wow. Time is funny. And we were just chatting when I was on the trip. You and I started interacting and we were like, let's do it for you. So let me hear about your thoughts on where would you want to go? I think Italy is a no-brainer. You know, with my Italian kind of family and I used to go back there often as a kid.

22:12There's a strong bread culture there, obviously, that would be fun to explore. And there's a lot of bread, especially in southern Italy, that I think maybe is undiscovered. Just like local, hyper-local like breads that communities make. And there's just a lot to explore there. And then there's pizza, of course. Of course. And you have a deep interest in that. And we can talk a little bit more about what you want to do with pizza. But back to the trip, are there like cities you want to visit? I feel like we're just in the planning stages and we'll announce this later in the year. But what are some cities that come to mind?

22:49I'd love to go to Naples, honestly. I've never been there. And even though I've been back to Italy often, it's one of the places where we never visited. But there's a lot of small little towns in southern Italy that I think have a lot of interesting culinary paths that you can explore. Um, yeah. And, and the bread in Italy, I feel compared to France doesn't get, it's, it doesn't get its shine. I agree. So this is, this is part of this discovery in this trip. Yeah. Yeah. And there, I think, um, especially in the South with, um, like Altamara bread and I mean, yeah, there's just a lot to discover.

23:28It's exciting. Stay tuned. We'll have some things to announce later this year about Taste Travels. Um, let me ask you about what's next book wise. I know you just got done with this massive book and project. It's really popular still. I mean, your book is amazing and I'll link to the show notes to pick it up. Now, what's, what are you thinking? What's in your head right now about future book projects? I would love to write another bread book. I think there's a lot to say about whole grains, you know, freshly milled flour, areas that I've explored with sourdough, you know, especially. and then there have been a lot of people that have asked surprisingly for books like things to do with your sourdough starter discard you know like because i have cake recipes and you know things you wouldn't think of normally that you can use that in or you can use the discard like in a sweet application that you normally wouldn't so what does it do to a sweet application that we you know we haven't really done use sourdough starter in sweet applications it's harder it's definitely more challenging yeah um i'd say in some cases it may not make sense like for a croissant like you can do it yeah but practically it's it's a lot of work like it's really difficult um but there are things like donuts like bomboloni yeah you know you can make i have the recipe in my first book but there's variants of that that you can do um things like panettone is, you know, has been naturally lovin' for years.

25:02So I think there's a lot of, and there's also unexpected things that you wouldn't do. Like I do a babka, I do, you know, a lot of other things. Yeah. I've seen some sourdough babkas out there in the internet. That seems like a good one. Do you make a nice panettone yourself? That's what I've been struggling with. Oh, I like admitting, you know, you don't know everything quite yet. It's another beast. It really is. It's like, I really do agree when people say it's the hardest thing to bake because it requires an insane amount of attention, focus, and technical knowledge of every step of the process.

25:38You've got the fermentation side, which is really difficult. The mixing of the dough is very lengthy. And then there's two doughs that you have to mix. So it's just a long list of. Plus the long list of components for the flavoring. Absolutely. The flavoring, I mean, even with the nuts and the dried fruit, there's a lot going on there. There's also sub-recipes to make those components. I almost feel like a bakery kind of has to specialize on Bonito. Because you're right, you've got almost like a culinary, like a chef side to making it. You know what I mean? Or pastry or confectionery kind of thing.

26:14I mean, Roy gets pressed. Nice guy. We don't need to talk about Roy anymore. Everyone's talked about him. But there's like, honestly, if you go to Eataly, if you're blessed with an Eataly nearby or even Whole Foods during the holiday season and see those boxes from, you know, Milan or, you know, wherever they're coming from. They're, I mean, they're amazing. These panettones, these Italian holiday cakes. Yeah. Yeah. It's something that it's a cultural bread. Absolutely. And I grew up eating it, you know, every Christmas we would have one. My dad would get it through our restaurant. You know, he'd special order them and have them flown in kind of thing.

26:50Yeah. And I have a lot of food memories, you know, around that. It's nice. I think a lot of folks, they only know the version you get at CVS, which frankly, still delicious to me. I'm a huge Panettone fan. And like shading on Panettone is being not good because of that CVS version. You've just outlined why it's such a special product. Yeah. Yeah. It's, there's a lot of levels of, and different kinds too. You know, there's, you've got like a Northern style, you know, it's just, there's so much history. Yeah. Oh man, I would love to hear, or maybe read more about the Pantone. You're probably working on some stuff.

27:27It's coming. Yeah. It's coming. Good. I'll definitely, I'll look for that. Marisa, on This Is Taste, we asked guests about their discerning taste. So to close this interview, here's a little rapid fire, fast and furious taste check. Are you ready? Let's do it. The best breakfast. The Italian style. I have to go with it. like good bread and then slices of like meat and cheese and jam. For me, that's it. And an espresso. Of course. I mean, without question. That's the thing. Like you got like one, two, three espresso, then you get the meat, then you get maybe, you know, hit the cigarette and then you're - The cigarette.