315: Leah Koenig

0:28This episode is brought to you by Resi and American Express. So first of all, what you will not find in Rome traditionally is challah, right? Like the braided Jewish bread that we all think of with Shabbat. And when I first went to Rome, I was like, I went to a Shabbat dinner. I was like, where's the challah? And they're like, we're not German. We're not like Central European Jews. Why don't we don't have challah?

0:52This is Taste. I'm your host, Matt Rodbart.

0:59Leah Koenig is the author of six cookbooks, including The Jewish Cookbook and Modern Jewish Cooking. Her latest book, Portico, is one of my favorites of the busy fall season and taps into the rich history of Jewish food in Rome. On this episode, Leah and I talk about the iconic dishes from Rome's Jewish ghetto and talk about the years she took reporting this wonderful book. I hope you enjoy our conversation.

1:29Leah Koenig, welcome to This Is Taste. How are you? I'm doing great. How are you? It's great to see you. Yeah, it's been a minute. It's been a minute. You wrote a few things early days, Taste, right? Like a story or two? Some of my favorite pieces. There was an onion powder thing where I talked about the rights of onion powder and how we all are snobs about it. We are, still. Wrote about foraging on TikTok and all sorts of stuff. Yes. Love that story. That was great because that was like right before all those mushroom TikTok books came out. I think you were ahead of the curve on that one. But, you know, I got a copy of Portico, your latest book.

2:00You've written several about Jewish food in the world. And man, it is great. Terrific book. Thank you so much. That means a lot because it's definitely in many ways my most personal and meaningful to me book. Well, let's talk about the evolution of your book work because you are known, as you said, you're known for onion powder, really, in my heart. But also in the world of food, you're known as a Jewish food writer and scholar. Do it with such intensity and flair and voice. I love it. Let's talk about the evolution from your earlier books to now where you're focusing on the foods of Rome and the Jewish foods of Rome.

2:32Yeah. Well, I would say early on in my food writing career, I sort of tried not to be a Jewish food writer. I didn't want to get pigeonholed and I wanted to write about onion powder. I wanted to write about, you know, rum on a shark boat in Cape Cod. That's a real story. but at a certain point the old adage of like write what you know just started to feel true for me and I started to question why I was running away from it when really like you can explore the whole world through Jewish cuisine because you know a lot of Americans think of Jewish food as Eastern European matzo balls brisket latkes all that stuff and it is but it's actually it's a global cuisine so my early books and really all of my books have had an eye towards thinking about Jewish food as a way to explore the world and to really more deeply appreciate Jewish food as a global cuisine.

3:24Right. And I fully agree. Ashkenazi cuisine is part of the story, but not the full story. And thank God. I mean, yeah, we don't need more gefilte fish in our life. My take, of course, I'm not a huge fan of that dish. But let's talk about Rome and how do you get to Rome and why is Rome this city? You know, it's a city now. We're not talking Italian food here, But we're talking about Rome in particular. There's a really long and rich history of Jewish food in Rome. Yeah. Enough to write a whole book about it. Yeah. So, you know, my my previous book, The Jewish Cookbook, which came out in 2019, was really like an exploration of everything.

4:00I tried to capture it's impossible to do, but I tried to capture the entire world of Jewish food from Morocco to Ethiopia to India to Lithuania, whatever, all everywhere. And so when I was thinking about what I wanted to do with my next book, I really was like, I want to go small. I want to go deep. I want to, like, focus on one place that means a lot to me. And Rome, my experiences in Rome, you know, I traveled a lot there in my 20s. And I went on my honeymoon there with my husband in 2009. And, you know, personally and professionally, Rome has always just captivated my attention, right? That's nothing.

4:36Everybody feels that way. But for me specifically, it was learning about their 2000 plus year Jewish history because it predates. It's older than Ashkenazi cuisine. It's older than Sephardi cuisine. It is the oldest European Jewish community. Wow. And through the years, there's just been so much strife and so much hardship, but it's kind of created this very unique, tight knit community of people and a cuisine that's unlike anywhere else. And it's literally in a neighborhood. It's not necessarily throughout Rome. There's a quarter and that's where a focal point is. I'm sure it's cooked in many parts of Rome.

5:17But really, it's rare to get a cuisine that's that old in literally one part of a city. Yeah, it's one part of a city, but it's also really diverse because the earliest Jews who came to Rome came in like, you know, 2000 years ago. They were actually emissaries of Judah the Maccabee, if you know the Hanukkah story. I know the songs. Songs are dope, yeah. They were fleeing persecution in ancient Judea and actually came to Rome because the emperors at the time, Augustus and Caesar, they were actually, they were, I wouldn't say they were kind to Jews, but they were tolerant. They were like, do your thing.

5:52Who are you? We don't care. Just whatever. And then, you know, so those are the most ancient Jews there. And some people can actually trace their lineage or they say they can all the way back to that time. Who knows? You know, that's a long time. But then during the Spanish Inquisition, thousands of Sephardi Jews from Spain and Portugal and Sicily moved north to Rome or east. And that's because at the time Italy was not a unified country and Sicily in the south of Italy was actually ruled by Spain. So all of the like Inquisition rules, which were basically convert to Catholicism. Or else. Die, be murdered or move.

6:32And so a lot of people chose to flee. and ended up in Rome. So now you have this like Sephardic thing going on in the cuisine. That's like seeing things like, um, ground almonds and pastries and the use of raisins and pine nuts and savory and sweet applications. Um, and then in the 1960s, after the six day war in Israel, several thousand Libyan Jews moved to Rome. Um, because Libya had been a colony of Italy. So there were, they, a lot of them spoke Italian already. It was just a obvious place for them to go. So now you have this like patchwork of Jewish food all focused in this like one city and like this one quarter of this one city.

7:14Yeah. So it's pretty it's pretty amazing how much diversity you can get in such a small space. We'll get to the methodology in the book and the way you made it because I love it. I really connect with that. And we'll also get to some of the iconic dishes. But in talking about the timeline, you talk about 1960 and Libyan Jews kind of moving in. Let me ask you about the Holocaust and like fascist Italy. How did this community survive and stay preserved during, you know, fascist Italy and a very difficult time for Jews in Europe? Yeah, it's actually really interesting because when you're talking about Roman Jews and like the hardships they have, I almost think of the fascist Holocaust time as less traumatic than the 300 years they were forced by papal decree to live in this ghetto.

7:58Right. The word ghetto is actually like an Italian word. It means copper foundry. And the reason that it's associated with the neighborhood is because the first ghetto was actually in Venice, not in Rome. It was 40 years earlier. And the neighborhood where the Jews were forced to live was right next to a copper foundry, which is called a ghetto. And so that's where the word ghetto originally comes from. Wild, right? Right. Like language as well. So, you know, Jews in Rome had to live in their locked gated slum for 300 years, 1550s to 1871. Like, right. Not that long ago when you think about it.

8:32We can talk more about that. But to get to your question, you know, during the Holocaust, the community had only been free from the ghetto for, you know, less than 100 years. Right. So they were, I think, pretty shell shocked by the rise of fascism and, you know, just like all of this anti-Semitism happening again. It's like 60 years. Yeah. It's like not even that much time. I mean, people probably were children when the ghetto ended and then, you know. And so in a way, they were at the beginning of the of the world of World War Two. They were kind of protected from the worst of the Nazis because Italy was on the side of Germany at the beginning of the war.

9:11And I think they were sort of protected. They kind of left them alone. But then when Italy switched sides and became part of the Allies, all hell broke loose. And the Nazis like pulled in to the ghetto neighborhood one day and like rounded up a thousand Jews. And I think 16 of them came back from Auschwitz. But what's interesting is the pope at the time didn't really take an official position on the war, but privately he instructed convents and monasteries to help Jews. And so a lot of Roman Jews during that time, children especially, lived in convents and hid there. And so I met when I was doing my research a lot of Jews who said, you know, I grew up my first several years I lived in a convent.

9:57Wow. Thank you for that context and the history of this city. Let's get into the culinary side. And I think if anyone has been to Rome and has explored the Jewish quarter, you know, fried artichoke is really the iconic dish. And of course, that's only one of over 100 recipes. So let's talk about the fried artichoke effect a little bit, but also get into some more of the dishes that maybe we don't know as much. Yeah. I mean, yeah. If you've heard of anything about Jewish Rome, you know about the fried artichokes. Carciofia a la Giudia. And excuse my pronunciation. It literally means Jewish style artichoke.

10:34And Roman Jews have a special bond with the artichoke. Like, right. I feel like in America, we steam it and we dip the leaves in butter. And that's about all we do. I mean, that's the jam. Thanks, California. Yeah. Thank you, Kelly. But Roman Jews, they do so many different things with artichokes. They make carpaccio. They make pasta dishes. They make like the, you know, the Roman braised artichokes with herbs and things. But the fried artichoke is kind of a miracle to watch being prepared, right? Because you start with this thistle and you peel away, you pair away all of the kind of outer green, not so yummy parts.

11:14until you get to the pine cone stuff. The pine cone stuff, totally. And you expose, like who thought to do that? I don't know. Yeah, I think of that in like uni. It's like who thought one day, both of them are very similar. We're daring, you know. We're also very hungry. Yes, we're hungry. And stupid sometimes. You know, we will eat anything. Yeah, that's true. So, you know, you pare away all the outside, you get to the soft inner leaves and it kind of, you cut it so it basically looks like a closed flower and then you fry an artichoke, the artichoke twice. And this is something I learned in the process of this book.

11:48So you fry it once at a fairly low heat, which kind of cooks the artichoke and it makes the heart kind of soft and tender and velvety and so good. And then you take it out of the heat and then you let it cool and you open it up so it looks like a flower. And then you fry it again at the kind of standard 350, you know, deep fry temperature. So the leaves get really crisp, like kind of potato chippy. Blooming onion like. It's a little blooming onion, but with that soft center. And it's literally just the oil, the artichoke, salt, and a little lemon. No dipping sauce. Like, don't defile it with dipping sauce.

12:22I love that take. It's so great. The most beautiful thing I've ever eaten. I love that. And we love it. And why artichokes in Rome? Is it something that's easily in season all the time? No. I mean, yes now, but it was brought possibly by the Sephardi Jews in the, you know, 15, 1600s. But artichokes were something that the Moors of Spain cultivated when other people weren't cultivating them. And during like through trade, they introduced it to the Jews of Spain and Portugal and Sicily. And so when those Sephardi Jews moved up, they brought their artichoke love with them. And it met the love of deep frying in oil, which already existed in the Roman ghetto.

13:09because it might seem like crazy to fry things in oil, but olive oil is so abundant. It was so cheap. Jews had no money. That was actually an economical way for them to prepare food. Yeah, and like free tea culture is certainly something we know about all Italian cuisine. Lila, let's get into some other dishes that we don't really connect with Rome but are really iconic dishes of Roman Jewish cuisine. So one of my favorites is a dish. It's a dessert called Pizza Hebraica. Again, like Jewish style or Hebrew style pizza. and it's not a pizza in terms of what we think of with sauce and cheese. It is a bar cookie because the word pizza, I think, anciently means more like a pie.

13:45So it can be used more broadly. And so it's basically this like thick bar cookie made with flour and almond flour and then oil and wine, like sweet wine, right? So that's the dough. It's, you know, there's no dairy in it, which makes it good for kosher keepers. And then it's filled with like almonds, raisins, pine nuts. You're getting the Sephardic influence again there. And now like candied fruit and citron. And it doesn't sound that delicious, but it is one of the more delicious things I've ever eaten. It sounds amazing. It sounds like you're really selling it. I mean, it sounds raisins and pine nuts in a cookie.

14:22Yeah, it's so good. Let's go. Well, I know, but we're like chocolate. We're a chocolate chip people. We certainly are. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're right. I mean, yeah, we have many tastes in cookies. Let me ask you about Shabbat. Are there dishes that are really iconic Shabbat dishes in Rome? Yes. So first of all, what you will not find in Rome traditionally is challah, right? Like the braided Jewish bread that we all think of with Shabbat. And when I first went to Rome, I was like, I went to a Shabbat dinner. I was like, where's the challah? And they're like, we're not German. We're not like Central European Jews.

14:53Why don't we don't have challah? Although now you start to see there are some Romans who have like traveled to Israel or traveled to America, whatever, and use challah. Because it's so good. Yeah, no, exactly. It's like a really great bread. Yeah, it's like one of the few things Ashkenazi cuisine can be like, we did that. Respect. Yeah. But one of the most iconic dishes is called Strocotto di Manzo. It's literally like a beef stew that has very few ingredients, which is a hallmark of Roman Jewish cooking, right? Like taking a few things and making it. So it's like olive oil, beef, typically shin meat, but you can use other types.

15:27um, passata, tomato passata, um, sometimes an onion. Some people, some grandmas will tell you like, don't use the onion. It's not, it's not traditional, but whatever, you know, um, sometimes wine. Yeah. I was gonna say that you gotta have a little bit of a canteen there. Yeah, that's it. And it cooks for three hours, right? Like a typical brisket or something. And it is so good. Yeah. And the sauce gets so rich. And there's something about the mingling of the like meat and the passata and the olive oil. And it's just it's one of the more delicious things. And the cool thing about that dish is it's a preemie and a secondi.

16:02It's like an appetizer or a first course. You serve it the sauce over rigatoni. And then the second course, you serve the meat kind of like a standalone dish. So let me ask you, do you find hummus in Rome? Like hummus? Do you find like a culture there? You do because Italians, Roman Jews are very connected with Israel, like very connected. They have a very strong bond. And so you see people bringing it back. And also the Libyan tradition, you see some, you know, things like like hummus and couscous and stuff. It's not a traditional Roman dish, but you do see schnitzel, you see hummus, you see falafel.

16:41Yeah. Cool. Now let's talk about your kind of method to writing this book. And as I said in the intro, I connect with it because the books I like to make, I'm seeing in this book, which is. Thank you. Yeah, you're welcome. It's a fabulous book. And like, honestly, when you go to a place and you shoot in the documentary style, I like to hear about your photographer. But are you are you going to Rome a lot and kind of researching and shooting and then like reverse engineering the recipes? So I pitched this book like many people during the beginning of the pandemic. So I had been to Rome many times prior and had a lot of taste memories and a lot of, you know, stuff to pull from.

17:21But the early part of my research was actually over Zoom. Yeah. Using cookbooks, you know, deep diving into, you know, texts and documents and books and then literally like emailing the people I know and saying, can I Zoom into your kitchen? And so I did a lot of that. And I watched them, you know, make artichoke carpaccio or whatever else. And that was fine. But I knew I had to get there. And I literally was just like watching the travel, the travel ban and like waiting for it to lift. And in September of 2021, which was not long before my manuscript was due, I think it was due the following January, I saw my window and it was like after Delta and pre-Omicron.

18:03And I was like, I'm going. And so the photographer, Kristen Teague, who is a genius. Amazing work. I had never met her before. And we had a great time. We spent a week in Rome together. she shot a lot of the you know atmospheric stuff the streets um the you know the the synagogue the shabbat dinners that we went to things like that and i cooked with as many people as i could because i had a lot of these dishes yeah partway there and then when i went there i was like oh i need to change this because that's not how it's really done i'm really uh impressed that you were able to capture in a week and really just get all that out there it's a really cool book like i love it.

18:42Thank you. Let's get one more recipe that you really feel like should be made and should be that represents your book so well. So one dish that is just so iconic to the Roman Jewish community is pomodori y mezzo. It's like roasted halved tomatoes. And it's, again, so simple. It's tomato, olive oil, salt, pepper, garlic, basil, and a little sugar to help caramelize the tomatoes and roasted in the oven until they're like fully collapsing. You'll find it at the beginning of every Shabbat meal you have, especially during tomato season. So amazing. And it's one of those things where you just start to realize that the true magic of Roman Jewish cuisine, because it takes so little and it makes something so special.

19:26Yeah, you've made that. Sorry, I feel like I've said that a bunch of times. It's a great point. No, it's important because when you're writing a book and you have very few ingredients, the book actually is important because there's technique there, there's timing there, and you really nail it. Okay, so we often forget about the last recipe in cookbooks, so I wanted to call yours out, which we've done with many of our guests. On page 314, you have a recipe for mint tea with roasted peanuts. I love that, and it's buried back there. Let's give it the shine it deserves. So that is a drink that is actually, that comes from the Libyan wing of Roman Jewish cuisine, and I actually, there was a moment where I was considering not including Libyan dishes because it's a much newer part of the mosaic, but I realized they're there.

20:10There are intermarriages, quote unquote, between Libyan Jews and Roman Jews. So I decided it was a thing. And also, when I went to Rome in 2009, I went to this Jewish food festival at their JCC, and I had this mint tea with peanuts in it. And it just blew my mind. I was like, what are peanuts doing? So how do you do it? What's going on here? So it's a traditional Libyan presentation. Like, you know, you think of North Africa, you think of mint tea, right? Like Morocco, it's part of like a, you know, ceremonial and hospitality, all of that. You take the tea, it's mint leaves and green tea and sugar.

20:52And traditionally you aerate it a bunch. I didn't do that in the book because it's like a whole thing. But I talk about how you can do it. And you serve it in little glasses. And then you add these boiled or roasted peanuts on top. And it's like you get a little snack with your drink. And it's so, you know, desserts are kind of simple in North African Jewish cuisine. So it really is like you get a little something extra with your dessert. And the presentation is really beautiful. Yeah. Yeah. When I go to Israel, I have family in Beershevan. We have Sheba tea, which is like a version of mint. And it's just incredible.

21:24I love making mint tea. I bring back leaves and freeze it. Yeah. Nice. Yeah. Mint tea is underrated. For any culture, it doesn't have to be Jewish or Israeli or whatever. It can just be ending your meal with mint tea. It's not caffeinated. It's a great digestive. Totally. It's great. Makes your breath smell better after all that garlic. It does. Now, Lila, I want to ask you, is there another facet of Jewish food that you feel you want to dive into for this kind of single topic, singular work? I mean, as I mentioned, I just love your work and I respect it and you're important to food writing. What are you thinking?

22:01Thank you. That means a lot. My next book, which I'm just getting started on right now, is actually going to be a little going back out broad, but not too broad. It's going to be like a big, bold Jewish dessert book. Like think like Claire Safis' dessert person, but Jewish. And it's going to have the history. It's going to have the global nature. it's going to celebrate you know everything that we think of like rigolach and honey cake and a lot of things that we don't uh you know like compote well i don't know if compote's going to be in there it might that's like it's like my family's like passover after the meal it became like our and i was like is this really jewish or is this just oh yeah is it oh yeah i mean it's like russian lithuanian yeah yeah it's just like slumpy fruit yeah slumpy cooked fruit and stewed and good for like the cleaning of the pipes, if you know what I mean.

22:50It's very good. Yeah, but you might not have it in there? I'm not sure. I don't have the full list. But, you know, actually in Portico, there is a recipe for caramelized figs and stone fruit that's like their version of compote. And it's really good. So much more delicate and well said. But I can't wait to have you back in a couple of years or even sooner to talk about this book and just your work. On This Is Taste, we also have guests about their discerning taste. So to close this interview, here's a little rapid fire, fast and furious. Taste check. Leah, are you ready? I am ready. The best AM pastry with coffee.

23:27Okay. So if I'm going sweet, I want a sticky cardamom bun. Yeah. And if I'm going savory, I want a cheddar chive biscuit. I love that you split the hair and split the difference there. Well, sometimes you're in a sweet mood. Sometimes you're in a savory mood. I fully agree. The best dessert, hands down. Best dessert, hands down. Actually, the one I'm currently obsessed with is the chocolate almond cake in Portico. It's like a flourless chocolate cake, but we use actual ground almonds in it, and it's got this little nubby texture. So good. I can't wait to make that. I love an almond cake. I love that.

23:55It sounds so good. The best bread. I'm obsessed with Bread Alone San Francisco sourdough. I buy it every week at the farmer's market and eat it all the time. Yeah, it's a good one. They have a cafe up in the Catskills, too. Bread Alone is real cool. Yeah, I think they're from there. Yeah, they are up there. Yeah, exactly. Your favorite dinner party dish to make as a host? I would always go with roast chicken, which sounds really boring, but you can do so much with roast chicken. And there's actually a dish that I recently learned about. It's like a Mexican style roast chicken with lime juice and annatto, which I've never really cooked with before, and cumin and coriander.

24:31And then you can either grill it or roast it. So good. Sounds so good. Do you brine or salt your chicken ahead of time? I don't. I use kosher meat at home. So it's usually it's got that saltiness from being salted as part of the koshering process. Definitely. Yeah. Yeah. That's a great hack. Yeah. Just buy a coat of meat. Get some kosher chicken. Seasoned well. Totally. Your favorite dinner party dish to bring as a guest? Honestly, when I'm a guest, I want people to cook for me. Yeah. So I'll usually bring wine or whatever I'm testing, like for desserts, I'll bring desserts. Yeah. Because I feel like that won't step on the toes of whatever the host is making.