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Podcast Summary: This Is TASTE - Episode 318: Shelly Fireman & Lorenzo Espada
Overview In this episode of *This Is TASTE*, hosts Aliza Abarbanel and Matt Rodbard interview two notable figures in the culinary world: Shelly Fireman, a legendary New York City restaurateur and accomplished sculptor, and Lorenzo Espada, a self-taught chef who gained fame on TikTok and is promoting his debut cookbook, *Somethin' Outta Nothin*: 100 Creative Comfort Food Recipes for Everyone.
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Key Highlights
Shelly Fireman
Background
- Owner of Iconic Restaurants: Fireman owns several acclaimed NYC establishments, including Redeye Grill, Bond 45, and Café Fiorello.
- Artistry: He is also a sculptor with a studio in Tuscany, integrating art into his restaurants.
Restaurant Evolution and History
- The Hip Bagel:
- Opened in 1963, marking the first standalone bagel shop in NYC.
- Revitalized the perception of bagels from a Jewish cultural food to a mainstream item.
- Attracted notable customers including John Lennon, Bob Dylan, and Andy Warhol.
- Cultural Strategy:
- Fireman’s restaurants are strategically located near cultural institutions like Carnegie Hall and Rockefeller Center, enhancing their visibility and patronage.
Reflections on the Industry
- Adapting to Eras: Discusses the evolving landscape of NYC dining across different decades.
- Challenges: Addresses current industry challenges, such as rising costs and inflation.
- Keys to Success:
- Hard work and flexibility are crucial.
- Learn from others and surround yourself with smarter individuals.
Lorenzo Espada
Introduction and Background
- Self-Taught Chef: Espada gained popularity for his creative cooking videos on TikTok.
- Debut Cookbook: His cookbook *Somethin' Outta Nothin* aims to make cooking accessible and fun.
Cooking Philosophy
- "Make Something Outta Nothing":
- Encourages creativity in the kitchen using simple ingredients.
- Promotes the idea that good meals can be made from what one has on hand.
Culinary Journey
- Early Experiences:
- Started as a dishwasher and worked his way up in the restaurant industry.
- Gained experience in various restaurant formats including Shane's Rib Shack and Olive Garden.
- Viral Moment:
- His first viral video featured a crab cake stuffed biscuit, which showcased his innovative approach to cooking.
Cookbook Insights
- Unique Recipes:
- Highlighted dishes include Sweet Potato French Toast and Philly Cheesesteak Egg Roll, blending traditional comfort food with creative twists.
Future Aspirations
- Restaurant Ambition:
- Aspires to open a family-style restaurant that caters to diverse tastes, emphasizing quick, enjoyable food experiences.
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Key Takeaways
- The evolution of food culture is significantly influenced by historical context and individual creativity, as exemplified by Shelly Fireman's establishment of the bagel as a culinary staple and Lorenzo Espada’s innovative approach to comfort food.
- Personal experiences and family traditions shape culinary identities, impacting both cooking styles and food presentation.
- The current challenges in the restaurant industry highlight the need for adaptability, creativity, and community support for restaurateurs.
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Conclusion This episode of *This Is TASTE* provides insightful conversations about the intersection of culinary arts and personal storytelling, emphasizing the importance of heritage, innovation, and resilience in the food industry. Shelly Fireman’s legendary history and Lorenzo Espada’s fresh perspective create a rich dialogue about food as both an art form and a means of connection.
For more episodes and updates, visit [Taste Cooking](https://tastecooking.com).
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:28This episode is brought to you by Resi and American Express. So Warhol, he didn't eat much. His stomach wasn't even good back then. He just came in and schmoozed. He had nowhere else to go. He ate very simple. Maybe a bagel and cream cheese. He didn't eat much. My mistake was not buying the art for 50 bucks.
0:52This is Taste. I'm your host, Matt Rodbarg.
0:59Shelly Fireman is the owner of several New York City restaurants of acclaim and heritage, including Red Eye Grill, Bon 45, and Cafe Fiorello. On this truly amazing episode, we hear some great stories from this living legend. We hear about opening the first standalone eventized bagel shop in New York City in the early 1960s, as well as many more stories from this over 50 years in the business. It's such a cool conversation with Shelly, and I hope you enjoy it.
1:35Shelly Fireman, welcome to This Is Taste. It's great to see you. Thanks for having me. I appreciate it. This is going to be a really fun conversation. You know what? You're a legend in the game. You run some of New York's most, I would say, historical and favorite restaurants, Red Eye Grill, Cafe Fiorello, and many others. La Del Arte, don't forget that. Let's not forget that one. Let's start there. What's that restaurant? What's happening there right now? What's happening? Yeah. We're doing lots of business. Carnegie Hall is doing well, and we're doing well, and we've been there for 35 years, and it's, oh, we just, oh, I just put my artwork in there, and Marc Gustavi just put a new collection of artwork, so we're having a big blowout next Monday, I think, showing off all our art.
2:20Try to read the art there not only is a great Italian restaurant, it's filled with wonderful art. Your restaurants are significant in many ways, but one is that they're located near New York City cultural institutions. Rockefeller Center, Carnegie Hall. Was this a strategy of yours when you were opening? Absolutely, but I don't want to discuss my strategy because who wants other people to follow my strategy? Right. But it was strategy. Well, I mean, right now it would be like opening next to the M &M store in Times Square is like where you want to open it. That's a New York City cultural institution at this point.
2:54We have one, two, three restaurants in Times Square, and we're doing very well there. Let's go back. I think this is really important to talk about. The restaurant's called The Hip Bagel. It opened in 1963. Before then, bagels were not considered a main food group. Wait a minute. Main? It was only one group of people ate it. Twelve Jews in the Bronx. So you opened the Hip Bagel in 1963. Tell me about this restaurant. Wait a minute. I opened it because, well, I'll give you the whole picture. I got off the Jerome Avenue L at Burnside Avenue, and we used to buy bagels in the basement. Guys used to cook it in the basement.
3:45They used to hand it up to you on Friday night. That's when every Jew bought bagels, only Friday and Saturday night. And one day, I got off the train to visit my mother, and an empty lot by the pool room was a building, a glass building, and inside they were making bagels. All of a sudden, it came from the underground. It went above ground. I looked at that empty lot in that bagel store, and I said, bagels are going to be hip. There's a future in bagels. And I was trying to be in business, not necessarily the restaurant business or the hip bagel business. But it was so obvious that bagels had a future that I decided to go to the public library and study the restaurant business.
4:34I spent three months at the public library and I opened up the hip bagel. What location? Where was it at? McDougal Street. Yeah. Down in the village. But I had no experience. I only opened it. It was 500 bucks I opened it. I mean, let's let that sink in, listener. Well, let me be fair with you. I was 500 of my own money,$500 the manufacturer's trust. God bless them, loat me. Why they loat me? They just liked me as a kid. And then the jukebox and cigarette guys from Greenwich Village also loat me. Is that a euphemism? Is that a side name for certain? By the way, these were good people. I love them.
5:18Let's not go there. Okay, this is great, Shelly. I think that's a really great way. Let that sink in. But by the way, if you were a legitimate guy, they were more than legitimate guys. I respect it. Please. Okay, so let's let the sink in, listener. The bagel, pre-1963, before this restaurant opened at McDougal, was considered Jewish food. It wasn't, there was no lenders. It was only Jewish food. There was no lenders. There was no frozen. There was no culture. There was no, like. It was just a little, no. Okay, so you open up the hip bagel on McDougal. your customers include John Lennon, Bob Dylan, Andy Warhol, Shel Silverstein, Barbara Streisand.
5:59How did the bagel explode in New York City with this restaurant? First of all, they have to eat. You've got to remember, John Lennon had to eat, Bob Dylan had to eat, they all had to eat. I mean, we had more, everybody who was famous today or long gone and famous ate there. They liked the bagels. Let me say this, I was brought up that my father's family always played. My grandmother couldn't cook very good food, but everybody played a musical instrument. She went to my grandmother's house. Everybody sang. Everybody played. We had a great time. My mother's side of the family, everybody was a trained cook, a European trained cook.
6:37You went to that side, everybody ate well. So I just took what I knew and understood, good hospitality, fun food. We just had a great time. The hip bagel was, everybody was pleasant. What do you want to say? It's not a grand opera. No, it wasn't. But what are you putting on the bagel? What are the bagels you're serving? Okay, here's what I put on. Let me tell you what I did. I'm from the Bronx. So Italian food, I was part of my upbringing. So I remember going to Bleecker Street. No, not Bleecker Street. Yeah, Bleecker Street or Housin Street. And there was a, I'll tell you, a sausage maker there, an Italian sausage maker.
7:17I walked into that sausage factory and I said, oh, if my mother were to see this factory, it was a chaos. So I decided I would have learned to make my own Italian sausages. So I put Italian sausages on bagels and bialis. I just mixed the two cultures that I was familiar with and understood and people appreciate. I love that. So you're putting Italian sausage on bagels. I made my own Italian sausage and I still do make my own Italian sausage. I respect that. What about the everything bagel? Was that something that... No, it didn't exist. It didn't. Forget about it. It takes 30 years for something new to happen.
7:55So what, are they plain and sesame? No, sesame. Everybody, it was plain. That's it. One bagel. One bagel. Got it. Don't make a... It's only a bagel. I don't know. And so when you're... John Lennon comes in, what's he ordering? I'll tell you. Here's a funny story. My grandmother lived on Paddy Street in East London for about 20 years. So he knew that. Anyways, so he wanted English kippers. English kippers stink up the whole restaurant. I only eat English kippers at home because you've got to open up the windows. It takes two days to get the odor out. So I told John I can't do it because it's going to smell up the whole place.
8:42So he just ate eggs. He wanted English kippets. I don't blame him. I want English kippets. But it's an at-home dish only. I fully agree. Bob Dylan, he just wanted smoked salmon, eggs, and onions. Barbra Streisand was sort of an oddball, but she was a pretty simple. Barbra Streisand wasn't Barbra Streisand at that time. She was just Barbra Streisand. So she wasn't demanding. she wasn't. She was very pleasant. Everybody was pleasant because the place was pleasant. What about Warhol? Warhol was different. I knew Warhol before and after and after. By the way, one of my great mistakes in life, I ended up, oh, I could have bought it for 50 bucks.
9:29You know what a big mistake? So Warhol, he didn't eat much. His stomach wasn't even good back then. He just came in and schmoozed. He had nowhere else to go. He ate very simple. Maybe a bagel and cream cheese. He didn't eat much. But my mistake was not buying the art for 50 bucks. Yeah. You could have had a piece and traded it for a dozen bagels. Yeah, I ended up buying five pieces for, I don't know when I paid$2 ,000 each, but anyways. Oh, so you did get some art. Yeah, no, no. I had five Warhols. Okay. But I could have bought a, wait a minute. Let's forget about what I could have done, right?
10:09You know, Warhol made a cookbook. It's called Wild Raspberries. It's a beautiful book, and it's available in rare book stores. And he was quite the foodie, actually. He was a soft-spoken. I went to a party with him. I've got a funny story. I went to a party with him once. He was a good friend of my friend who was a doctor. And he sat around all night, didn't talk to anybody, just sat in handcuffs. That was his performance. But he was a gentle, sweet guy. But, Shelley, you clearly were able to shift between the village in the 60s and, you know, uptown life. And did you feel like you could adapt to different crowds?
10:51Is that one of your terms? Being flexible is part of having a good life. I think you're right. I'm being flexible. Great advice. Flexible, the mind and the body, right? And the body. And don't, and just, wow. Let me ask you. We married a girl from Biloxi, Mississippi, and I'm from Nebraska. We've been married a long, long, long time. So you've got to be flexible. Love that. Let's talk about Mad Men, that era. I feel like you operated restaurants right in this era that we are familiar with as the Mad Men era, the mid-60s in New York. And I want to ask about that era, about conducting meals, business over meals.
11:28I feel that was a big part of the culture. I had the 11th highest grossing restaurant in the United States in 1968, the Chin Lizzy that Peter Max and I designed. And it was a lot of martinis at lunch. I don't drink very much. So that's what they did. They didn't seem, nobody was off base. I don't know how to tell you what happened because I only know 1972 when there was a crash. Yeah, you know the bad times. I know the bad. That's what I remember. That's the tough times for a restaurant. But back to the 60s and you're running this very popular restaurant. What's on the menu? I would love to hear.
12:11I'll tell you what we did. We had steaks. Mostly steak. People were steak eaters back then. Steaks were probably number one. We had a big bar scene. It was hugely popular. And it was still beef. Beef was it. Yeah, and it was just beef and martinis. And martinis. And people did, and they didn't, oh, the bar was 50 feet long, so the bar on Thursday, Friday, wow, was it jammed with people. Let's zoom out. Now, Shelley, by your estimates, what was the most fun era in Manhattan that you've operated a restaurant in? We're talking about six decades now. The fun era? Yeah. When the restaurant was successful, that was fun.
13:04Right. Smoking like a true restaurant. That's the best fun you could have. When I made mistakes and closed the restaurant, that's not fun. Is there an era that you just remember as being for you personally? No, I got to tell you something. Well, first of all, there's another era, an era when you could stay up late. I don't stay up so late anymore. So the 60s, the Peter Max and my design of the Tin Lizzy was just phenomenal. I mean, it was, but I had the same thing at Trattorier Del Arte. I had the same thing at Fiorello's. I mean, when you're successful, you're happy. Exactly. As somebody who's seen the ups and downs with restaurants, and we talk a lot about this on the show, Right now, costs of goods are higher than ever.
13:49Inflation is crushing us. Have you ever seen it this bad? Let me say that it's really concerning to everybody in this business. I think in 72, it was when, yes, and then in 80-something when - 87. Yeah. Wow. When interest rates were, forget about it. Yeah, like 30s. Yeah. We survived, but we survived. I mean, it's a struggle out there for people. And everybody should have, I want everybody to have compassion, come out to eat. Yeah. And we think of restaurants as a place to to to celebrate, to to to have meals that like the good times restaurants are and to have to survive and work through the struggle is is commendable.
14:43I want to ask you advice you would give or at least the keys to success to use some cliches. I feel like you've operated these restaurants for years and years and years through these good and bad times. What's what's the secret? it? Besides hard work, what's the secret? I used to tell people, you get up every day and you say, who do you kill today? Which means you don't kill anybody. It means if everybody's working eight hours a day, you're working 10 hours a day. Also, I also thought it was important if everybody's going to the left, go to the right. Also, I always thought it was important to find somebody who's smarter than you and sweep the floors if you have to, but ask them a lot of questions and get somebody to help you.
15:33Bingo. I agree with you fully. That's such a great, great advice. Love that. Next question, sir. You want to move on from that? I feel like the reflective side of this conversation is good because I think, I mean, do you own the properties? Do you own the buildings? No, I don't own the properties. And I do, no, we have great landlords and we're in big buildings and we don't own the property. Interesting. I mean, that to me, I would imagine that would be one way to keep going. So the fact that you have leases. I got to tell you something. When I had two opportunities to buy properties, I passed them by because inexperience and unsophistication.
16:18Also, I thought, how could a guy from the Bronx own a big building like that? But so I, that's a handicap. Yeah. But I'm happy with the landlords. I hope that landlords are happy with them. Remember, Fiorello's is going to be 50 years now. And we're there for a long time. Yeah, you've got 30 at Red Eye Grill. Yeah, we're around. No, absolutely. We're going to be around for the next 100. I've got Ben Grossman here. We're going to be around for the next 100 years. That's really cool. You live above Fiorello in the Upper East West Side. You literally live above the restaurant. Absolutely. So what's that like opening a restaurant and living above it?
16:58First of all, it's terrific because you don't have to go too far to eat. Well, sure. And you could call up and get anything. Sure. So it's terrific. And by the way, I own two apartments there. It's terrific. What do you want? It's great. I mean, I was going to say, does the evening extend up to your den? I don't know. Wait a minute. First of all, when I get home, I eat pretty simple. We're mostly vegetarians at home. But having the restaurant there means I can call downstairs and they'll deliver up a pizza, a pasta. I'll never go hungry. How's that? I mean, absolutely. That's the bottom line. I'll never go hungry.
17:42Let's talk about Red Eye Grill. Where did the idea of the dancing shrimp come up? Because it's home of the dancing shrimp. We see it on the marquee. I walk by literally every morning when I'm going to my office. You're right around the corner from Penguin Random House where we are right now. It's a great place. I've had meals there. Terrific. I love the upstairs, the bar area. It's a classic. You've got to check it out. Thank you. Where did I get the idea of the dancing shrimp? Well, first of all, the idea is to have real personality. And we had it at the Antipas. Remember, the Antipas the Bar is the only Antipas the Bar like it in New York, maybe in the country.
18:21Describe it. What is it? My antipasto ball? Wait a minute. I don't want to describe it. I'll tell you why. Let people, A, come in and eat, and I don't need anybody to steal it. So I'm not describing it. I respect it. I mean, you've got to find out for yourself. I'm not from the Bronx. You want me to just give away all this information? Forget about it. It's a new way to do media when you decide that you're not going to talk about your food. That's right. You know, as you said, you go left when they go right. Right, because otherwise, listen, my job is to, our job is to go out and find ideas. Steal anything that isn't, that's good, that isn't nailed down.
18:56That's how we remain successful. Bless you. That's really how you operate restaurants in this world right now. Absolutely. Who's been in your apartment? Famous people. In my apartment. Above Fiorello. I feel you've got some people who you've had up there. Wait a minute, mostly artists. Yeah, sure. Leroy Neyman, Peter Max, Marcus Stave. I'm trying to remember. First of all, a couple of guys that are dead. We don't want to talk about that. Also, wait a minute. I just realized I live a fairly private life. Yeah. Celebrities are just nice people I know forever. They're not so important to me. Yeah.
19:41Not since I hit bagel when I, when we were all kids, you know. Do you still eat bagels? Do I what? Do you still eat bagels? That's who I am, man. That's who you are at your business. Of course I eat bagels. Yeah, I mean. Does anybody not eat? Wait a minute. The fact that the bagel has bloomed to be an American thing. There's no such thing as an ethical thing. Everybody eats bagels. I agree. Even scoop them out now without. Yes, I always scoop them out because there's too much. Wait, so wait, you're endorsing the scoop, Shelley? I am endorsing the scoop because I'm endorsing healthy eating. And while the bagel is great, if you scoop and you stuffed it with protein, it's okay.
20:26Yeah, you could scoop. It's such a New York thing that's scooping. I mean, I'm from the Midwest. We don't scoop. Oh, you don't scoop? We don't scoop in the Midwest. Oh, because you want to eat. Wait, I'll buy another bagel. You only want to eat one bagel. I'll buy two bagels. Ah, now I'm seeing the angle. It's two scoops with protein in the middle. I like this style. You're from the midway? Wait, where are you from? West Michigan, Kalamazoo. Jeez, I don't think I've been. Yeah, it's my dad's from Chicago, north side. I've had some bagels in my day. I hope so. Yeah. I like the New York bagel. I like the Montreal bagel, though.
20:59Have you ever had that? No, I've never had. It's a good one. It's chewier. They're known for that. Let's talk about your art. I'd like to hear about sculpture. I think that that's cool. Okay, you want to hear about my art? Because it's low-key that we are mentioning artists, but you are an artist. I checked out your work online, and you have gallerists. You're successful, and I think that's terrific. First of all, here's my story. You want to hear my art story? Yeah, let's go. When I was 17, I went to sculpture school for a while, and everybody was three times older than I was, and I was intimidated, and I thought, how can I make a living being a sculptor?
21:38How do you make a living? So I stopped doing it. Then I ended up in a town in Italy, which is an artist community. I lived there maybe seven years before I said I had friends. They were all artists, sculptures, painters, so forth. And the foundries were there, and everybody was there. Botero lived there. Everybody lived there. And one day I decided, I could do this nonsense. What, are you kidding me? It's only art. It's not a grand opera. And I decided, I'm going to do it again. And that's what happened. It took me seven years to convince myself I could go back to do it. The trouble is, doing it is great.
22:19It's expensive. How do you sell it? It's another job, selling it. Yeah, yeah. Because the guys that sell art, or really sell art, are great at selling art. They're hustling all the time. They're like the guys who sell bagels. They're really, they're good at it. They're good at it. Yeah. And they got to hustle it. And it's a 24-hour-a-day job. My job is being a restaurateur. Being an artist is hanging it on a wall. And what am I going to do with it when I'm gone? I don't know who to know. Yeah. But you have a real appreciation. Do you go to the New York institutions? Do you go to galleries in Chelsea?
22:53Do you go to the Met? Listen, art is part of my life. It is. Art is part of my restaurants. Yeah. Wow. It's amazing. I got more stuff. Stuff. Well, you know how much art I have? I got stuff, man. Warehouses of stuff. Are you aware of what you have? Are you really... Are we organized? Yeah. I have books. Yeah. Sizes. Yeah. That's good. Yeah. Well, let me ask you about the modern art scene. Do you follow any particular trends or any styles? No. No. No. You've got your tastes. I get all the art magazines. So I keep turning the pages. There's more. Wait. This world is filled with more art. Those poor kids that go out of.
23:39My son teaches at the art school in Maine. It's amazing. And wait. You know how. It's a field that I don't suggest anybody goes in. No. Really. It's a disastrous economic field. Yeah. To sell art. There's more great artists that never sell a painting or never do anything. Right. It's a game. Very few people can play successfully. I mean, it's spoken like a capitalist. I mean, you run restaurants, you have a bottom line, you have a P &L, but then you also have this creative side to you. Which I don't make any money. Exactly. You realize there's a real financial obligation to enter. It's expensive to do in time consuming.
24:18Especially if you do sculpture, you're doing in the bronzes. I got beautiful bronzes. You want to buy some bronzes? Personally, I'm not a bronze guy. I do respect it. I go to Dia Beacon quite a bit, maybe twice a year. I try to go up to Dia Beacon. For sculpture, I love the – have you been up there recently? I've been up there, no. It's good. All the Sarahs are incredible just to walk around. I love it. I respect sculpture so much. It's really, really tough to wrap my head around it. I – it's – wait a minute. I don't know what to say. I thank you. I hope you appreciate my art. I feel bad for all the kids going to art school.
24:56Yeah. How are they going to make a buck? How are they going to make a dollar? Yeah. Yeah. Side hustles. It's all about the side hustle if you're an artist, right? It's a real job to sell art today. On This Is Taste, we ask guests about their discerning tastes. So to close this interview, here's a little rapid-fire Fast and Furious taste check. Shelley, are you ready? Yes, I'm ready. Wait, wait, can I hold on to the table? Okay. Okay, we're ready here. Okay. The best breakfast. Best breakfast is sturgeon and eggs and a bagel and cream cheese and tomato. Wow. I love that. That sounds so good. Sturgeon?
25:36Smoked sturgeon. Smoked sturgeon. Of course, smoked sturgeon. The best dessert? Chocolate mousse at Fiorello's. So what makes it special? There's a lot of chocolate mousses in this city. The chocolate I buy. What's the brand? I'm not telling you. Okay, fair enough. I like that. The best bread? Is the one I don't eat, focaccia out of Italy. Right. It's a rarity for you. Yeah. Who wants to eat bread? Who wants to eat bread? Yeah, it's a good question. It's an existential question. All right, your favorite celebrity guest of all time? I think I'll have to say Jerry Seinfeld. He's part of my family.
26:15He's like the third or fourth cousin. But he's a terrific guy and a great guest. And he's terrific. And he's funny. And he's funny and he's nice. Yeah. He really is a hamish good guy. I'd love to hear that. Your favorite New York City restaurant classic edition that you do not own or operate? They don't exist. I'm out all the time eating. Barney Greengrass, I suppose. Dude. Yeah. Have you ever had the collars there? Oh, the smoked salmon collars? Collars. I love those things. Me too. I love them. The sleeper. I like them fried or boiled. Boiled? I like them either way. I like them fried. Those are the sleepers.
26:57I like them boiled. My mother used to make it with a potato. Oh, I'm eating it right now. I love that. I love that dish. We're going to have one. So let's go have lunch there. I would love to. I'm going to have one of the green grasses on. I've been trying to book that for a while. He's a nice guy. I'll talk to him. You want him on? Let's connect. Let's link. Okay. Favorite new New York City restaurant? New-er. My Cafe Paradiso at Lincoln Center in the movie house. It's new because I have a new, exciting Italian-American cafe. Amazing. Yeah, it really is interesting. Also, I got to tell you something.
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27:35My Times Square Brooklyn Delicatessen where I'm selling$10 Reuben sandwiches excite me. I'll tell you this. The Brooklyn Diner in Manhattan at face value is not for me. I'm a Brooklyn. I lived in Brooklyn for 17 years. That said, I went and I had an incredible sandwich there for a meeting because it's right around the corner from me. And I keep going back. I've been back three times. And, like, again, Brooklyn diner in Manhattan, not my thing. But I love the food there, and I think it's really high quality. And I like it. I like your restaurant. Thank you. Thank you very much. I like it. What do you want from a Brooklyn diner that it won't give you?
28:19What do you want? What do I want? Yeah. That you don't have there? Yeah. Ruggler? Ruggler, I have Ruggler. I'll send you the Ruggler today. I make Ruggler, baby. I love it. Then there's nothing I need. And listen, all I'm saying - Ruggler you're getting. I just like, it's a little bit of a puzzle in my brain when you see Brooklyn diner in Manhattan. Oh, wait a minute. I want to put a Brooklyn diner in Texas. I want to put a—I'm going to Mobile, Alabama, put a Brooklyn diner. Wait a minute. Brooklyn is everybody. Listen, that I endorse. I think a Brooklyn diner in Texas is great. I mean, Brooklyn is—everybody who came to this country stopped for a day in Brooklyn.
29:02It's not a foreign country. Yeah, now it's Williamsburg. And they're going to the APC store in Williamsburg. That's pretty much why people stopped there. Brooklyn is America, man. I agree fully. I love it there. A couple more. Your favorite destination to visit for food, city, country. Italy, of course. My home in Italy. I mean, the food, yeah, Italy. What part are you staying in? Where's your house? My house overlooks the Mediterranean, overlooks, on a clear day, Switzerland. It's in Tuscany And It's about 25 minutes from the Pisa airport going towards the Mediterranean You figured it out That sounds like a nice place to be It is a nice place to be And easy to get there, close to that airport It's still a schlep Last one, your favorite sandwich Pastrami Reuben I mean that's Pastrami ruben, because there's so many.
30:05No, pastrami ruben, yeah. That's a real treat. That's a real treat. Are you ever going to Katz's? I know you run restaurants. Of course I've been to Katz's. Wait a minute. If you're an American, you've been to Katz's. Do you go anymore? Do I go? If I'm in the neighborhood, first of all, do I go? I try to eat. Wait a minute. I got my own pastrami. I know. I got my own cornbread. Do I go? If you'll take me, I'll go. Okay, I feel that's more of it. I mean, it was a loaded question because obviously you make your own version. Of course, yeah. It's good pastrami, though. But it's a legitimate place.
30:40It's a legitimate place. You heard it here. Cats is a legitimate place, as is Red Eye Grill, Fiorello, Bond, 45. USA Brooklyn Diner, USA Brooklyn Delicatessen, Cafe Paradiso, and Fiorello's on the National Harbor in Washington. And Trattoria del Arte. And Trattoria del Arte. You heard it here. These are institutions in New York. Shelley Farriman, thank you so much for joining This Is Taste. It's a pleasure to be here. Thank you so much for having me. Have a great day. Thank you.
31:24Lorenzo Espada, welcome to This Is Taste. How are you doing? Doing good. How are you doing today? Oh, man, it's really great to meet you. I've had your book for a while. It's out this week. Congratulations. Your first book. Yes. Finally here. Long time coming. You know, long overdue as well. Yeah. And I love I love getting to know you on TikTok. I've watched a lot of your videos and we were just chatting off Mike. You're from North Carolina and I love that your energy is from not a New York or L.A. You're from somewhere else and you really represent it. Right. Right. Right. Yeah. You know, I mean, North Carolina, everybody blows up where you're from, from L.A., from New York, from Atlanta.
32:01so I like to be from somewhere that everybody isn't. Yeah, exactly. So tell me about New York. You've been hanging out here for, is this your first trip to New York? First trip to New York City, yes. So, you know, heart of the city, fast moving, all that. Yeah. Yeah, so I like it. I'm not a huge fan of it. I don't know, maybe it's just being from North Carolina, it's a little slower paced, but it's just too many people sometimes, you know. I like your style. Yeah, I like the different, you know, all the different things you can do, the cultures, but sometimes it's a little too much. There's a lot of guys here.
32:31So let's talk about food. Yeah. So you've been here for a few days. I know you've been flying around with the book. Yeah. What have you been able to eat New York-wise while here? So I had some New York pizza. So I got family from Jersey, right? Okay, yeah. I had some New York-style pizza. Okay. Notes? I might get some backlash from this, but Jersey and New York pizza, man, is really no different to me. Oh. I don't believe the hype. Oh, so you mean from what you're getting in North Carolina? Yeah, the North Carolina. I mean, we have New York-style pizza in North Carolina, you know. And the pizza I had up here, I don't know, maybe I think it's a cultural thing.
33:09People outside in New York maybe have never had pizza outside of New York, so they feel like, oh. I love the shots are fired. Yeah. I still love y 'all New York, though. Can I just offer a little, just like a little feedback? I feel like, did you go somewhere good? Was it like a good place that was recommended, or was it a random place? So I had my manager. She was telling me that it was good. So I trusted her. All right. So your manager cosigns on the place. Do you remember the name of it, by chance? No, I don't. I don't know the name of it. Brett, you're not wrong, in my opinion, about the slice being not all that.
33:42Right. Because there are some really mid to not good slices available. And the low temperature, the rise, you know, doesn't do a lot. Right, right. It's not like Neapolitan, like super fast. Okay. But I appreciate it. So what kind of pie do you eat in North Carolina then? So we have, like I said, we have some New York style pizza places that, and I have family in New Jersey. I was actually born there and we've had, you know, that pizza. I mean, I'm just regular cheese, thin crust, you know, cooked right. When you fold it, the grease comes down your arm a little bit. Of course. I think that's, that's the, you know, the components of having a good slice.
34:22Yeah. Yeah. Well, we'll we'll let you gracefully exit this conversation. You haven't offended too many people. But I want to dig into your motto, which is something that really struck me. And when I when I look at your videos and get to know you, it's it's really smart. It's let's make something out of nothing. Yes. It says a lot. And I want to hear what you're what you mean by that. OK, so let me break it down for you. Easiest way possible. So it came from my father growing up. You know, it was always you have a pantry full of nothing. You know, sometimes you look in the pantry and you're like, man, we have food in there.
34:53Or you look in the fridge, we have something in there. But you don't know what you want to eat. Nothing of it really looks appetizing, right? Now you sit in there. Oh, let's go out to eat real quick. Let's find something to order. You know what I mean? Something like that. Essentially spend a little more money. So my father would always say, you can make something in there. You know, make something out of nothing. So take a can of tuna. Take some, he used to love the, he grew up, like he grew up, you know, eating stuff like something like spam and rice so really take whatever in there grab a couple eggs maybe a little rice a piece of toast now you make your sandwich or you have you know a full meal so that's essentially the something out of literally nothing now where it comes from now where i kind of tuned i do do that sometimes still but in my videos i like to tell people for example if we have a shrimp pasta right there's ingredients by themselves then don't really amount to much.
35:47Now shrimp in itself, you know, can still be good, but if you take pasta by itself, it's just pasta, the ingredients to make this Alfredo sauce, you know, it's just heavy cream. You don't want to eat heavy cream by itself, but you blend them all together and now you make a meal. So you hit it, you hit it because you, what you've said is it's simple. Good food can be simple. Right. And also it just takes a general understanding of what your pantry is offering you, which is always going to be something. Right. And so I love to hear about Let's zoom out a bit. Where did you learn to cook? So I learned to cook self-taught.
36:20I didn't go to culinary school. A lot of people, you know, ask me, did you go to culinary school to do this? I did not. It was really just one thing that I always loved to cook, you know, seeing my grandmother cook, my mother. I come from a family, you know, we cook a lot, you know, especially around family gatherings, get-togethers, holidays. We all like to cook. So I kind of just took that. And I had a passion for it. Cooking was always, you can do so much with it, you know? There's not one person that cooks the same. There's not two people that you can try to mimic something, but you make the same dish.
36:48Somebody's dish may be better than the other person's. It's so true. And self-taught, it allows you to not be like put into a box. Exactly. Did you have any experience in restaurants at all? Yes. Of course. Yeah. I worked in restaurants, gosh, since I turned 16. What kind of place? So I worked at, I don't know if you're familiar with the place called Shane's Rip Shack. Oh, yeah. So it's like a barbecue, like smokehouse type of restaurant. And the restaurant, it was pretty much, I started out as a dishwasher. So I was too young, I guess, quote unquote, to work the line around cooking. I don't know what they were talking about.
37:25But I worked as a dishwasher and worked my way up. Now I was washing dirty dishes, but I was smelling the food. So then I got a lot of experience of just the volume of restaurants, the volume of getting food out on time, getting food cooked to the right temperature. Under pressure. Yeah, you know what I mean? busy Saturday night, busy Sunday morning. So that's why I really got my feet wet. Then I moved on to going to college, and I started working at Olive Garden. That was a step up from, like, the mid-fast food into more not fine dining by any means, but more of, like, a, you know, organized, structured type of restaurant.
37:58Yeah, and everyone who knows OG knows it's actually, like, really, like, the recipes are really strong. Right, right, right. The culinary side of Olive Garden is extremely good. Exactly, exactly. And I love Olive Garden. I enjoy going to Olive Garden. and it's a really good spot. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not my favorite restaurant in the world, but I like what they do, and it's delicious food. Exactly, and contrary to popular belief, they make things from scratch. Some people think, oh, it's just a jar. No, they do make some things from scratch. Definitely not, and I love that you have these different experiences, and back to North Carolina barbecue, I'm not going to insult you like you insulted my New York pizza, but I'm just going to say the opposite.
38:33I think North Carolina's barbecue is the best. I'm a huge fan. I love pork barbecue. I love the style. The vinegar based in the sauce. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I have family from North Carolina. So, you know, there is difference. In North Carolina, though, you do have sides of it. So, like, you have Eastern Carolina barbecue, like, Western, all of that. So, yeah, I mean, but it's all, to me, it's all good. When you were working at the rib restaurant, were they doing it over live fire? Were they doing it over? So, they had some electric smokers. So, they would do, you know, ribs, pork barbecue. They would do smoked chicken, like half chicken wings, pretty much anything you could think of.
39:13And the size as well, mac and cheese, baked beans, all of that potato salad, big pieces of like, you know, Texas toast barbecue style. So it was it was really good. It was a nice learning experience. And it was something that I definitely will be able to take with me. Yeah, definitely. All right. So let's go to the moment of your first viral video, because I like to ask. of s's like Laurent Dejeunay and Joshua Weissman a number of the guys and women who've done the been considered influencers so to speak because that's who you are but tell me about that first moment when you went viral you were testing something out in your house right yeah yeah yeah so the very first viral moment I will have to say was it was one night so again I was I was making a lot of videos you know so it wasn't I was just trying new things always trying to you know be better than the last version of me, you know, better than yesterday.
40:04So it was one night, Valentine's Day, actually. This was 2020? Yeah. Was it 2020? Yeah. 2021. No, 2021, yeah. After the pandemic. Yeah, right, right, right, right. Yeah. So 2021 Valentine's Day, me and my fiance were just having a dinner, you know. Again, at this point, I was really cooking. I was really doing my thing. So we were having dinner one night, and we made some crab cakes, and we made, you know, red lobster biscuits, right? so I made like a homemade version of the biscuits, made some crab cakes, and you know we had a couple drinks and you know that's when your mind starts to get Agree.
40:39Flowing a little bit. So I was taking the crab cake and I was taking the biscuit and kind of just eating it together and you know putting a little lemon juice on it and I was like this is this is pretty good you know so thoughts start racing and we were like what if we made like a sandwich with it And I was like, yeah, that'd be pretty good. But I was like, what if we stuffed the crab cake inside of the biscuit? So I was like, okay, we got to try this. So that same exact night, I had one crab cake already made, made some extra biscuit dough real quick, and then just tried it. We put the biscuit dough in my hand, put the crab cake, put the biscuit dough on top, baked it.
41:19I just wanted to get it to stay together. At this point, I'm like, I don't even know if this is going to work. So put it in the oven and it stayed together. and then that was history. So I literally, that moment, still a little, you know, excuse me, a couple drinks in us and we were like, I told my fiance, I said, I said, okay, record this, right? Took some butter, poured the butter over the biscuit. Which you knew was going to get some likes. Right, exactly. Having a little bit of butter over. Yeah, people love that, yeah. So nice, like literally golden butter over top. I picked the biscuit up and I broke it open and it was like the perfect shot ever.
41:54The sound is of the heavens. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. To this day. So now that's the first part of it because, you know, you have to you have to visually grab people. Then it's like, how does it taste? It was perfect. Yeah, it was perfect. I posted it on TikTok. Instagram. Instagram reels. Yeah. So at the time, I wasn't even on TikTok yet. I was just on Instagram. It was 21. Exactly. Yeah. So I was I posted it and people literally like now at first it was like people were like, wow, you know, I've never seen this before. This is just crazy. And then I was like, OK, it's doing pretty good. And then it literally like I want to say two days later, it was just like blowing up.
42:31And I was like, wow, I've never in my life had this many views, this many likes, none of that. And then I was like, OK, let me keep going. You know, let me keep trying these crazy style of recipes. And then I kept doing it. And then people were like, oh, wow, all your stuff has looked good. You know, so then that just kind of kept me on my toes to continue to try to make these new, you know, again, I was competing with myself at the time. I didn't care what nobody else was doing. I was just trying to make better videos day to day. Let's talk about some of your recipes in the cookbook. You've got a sweet potato French toast, which I'm looking at.
43:04I'm like, that is smart. I've never had that. Right. Ever. Like I edit cookbooks. Like I've never had that. Right. Those two things together is new to me. Right, right. I love that. Okay. Tell me about it. Where'd you come up with that? So do you like sweet potato pie? Indeed. It's for Thanksgiving. It's one of my tops. Okay, cool. All right. So I had this idea of like, you know, what do you eat Thanksgiving morning? And what do you eat, you know, holiday morning? Because holiday season for me is like beginning of November until like I'll include like middle of January. You know what I mean? Just that cold season.
43:35So I was like, you know, you don't eat, I mean, sweet potato pie for breakfast. But I mean, you can. You know, there's nothing wrong with it. But I was like, how can we get this kind of version into breakfast? So I was like, French toast is good. Sweet potato pie is good. Let's kind of combine them. So we stuffed, cut a little slit into the French toast, stuffed the sweet potato mixture in there. And when you eat it, you get like the crispy edges of, you know, the French toast, the soft sweet feeling of the sweet potato. And then like you don't really don't even need any syrup on it. No, it's all there.
44:06Yeah. So another fusion food, which I like, the Philly cheesecake egg roll. Yeah. And I mean, tell me about that. Yeah. So I think that's just it's just the classic, you know. I mean, it's an egg roll. I feel like you can put anything in an egg roll. You can. You can do pizza rolls and all that. You know what I mean? But cheesesteak. Yeah, it's just, you know, cheesy. The steak can then, you know, nice and seasoned. Then you dip it in a little, you know, a little, like, sweet chili sauce or something like that. Yeah. It's going to be a hit every time. Have you checked out Philly? Have you been there?
44:38I have not. I do want to go. Philly and Chicago are, like, top two on my list right now. You've got to hit the wall. They're great towns. Yeah, yeah. I mean, they're great towns for food. And really, there's so much to learn from those two cities. And I hope you get to have some roast pork in Philly as well, not just a cheesesteak. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love going to new cities and I need to try your staples. I went to New Orleans. I had the most amazing gumbo that I've ever had. And I came home and made it. So I had to recreate it. So do you have a restaurant in your future? I feel like you know restaurants.
45:13Yes. But do you want to open one? I do. I was. I have been talking to people about this recently. It's definitely on my bucket list. It's just one of those things. I'm 25. It's one of the things where I feel like I need a little more seasonedness in me. I need some more years under my belt. Not necessarily to run the restaurant. I feel like I could do it now. It's just one of those things that I think is not in my plan for the next, my next three, four, five years. But it's one of those things that I want to be able to be in my 40s, late 30s. even the 50s and say, hey, come on, let me shut the restaurant down for the day.
45:49You know, all the family come in. You know, I've always had that dream. It's a nice dream, Dad. It's like one of the good things about owning a restaurant. There's lots of bad things, too. Right, right, exactly. As you know, you've worked there. Right. You worked that busy shift at the rib restaurant. Yeah, exactly. So what's the style of the food? What's the restaurant like? So the restaurant, I have this vision of like, you know, a nice family style restaurant, you know, nice bar area, like not really a tavern you know but something where I mean I love sports you know so something where you know you're out you know you know how some restaurants have like they're not promoted as like sports bars but you know you do have a tv at the bar um you know but something like where we have good food and also like arrange for people I want something for everybody you know a nice burger and then also have a really good steak and crab cake biscuit or something yeah Yeah.
46:40It's interesting you say you like sports, which I wasn't assuming. But then when I read your book, I'm like, there's so much tailgate food here. Yeah. And I hope that's a compliment. I mean, it looks amazing. Yeah. Or game night. Right. Right. Right. Yeah. Because I mean, and to speak on that, it's it's a mixture of that. But also, as I said earlier, I'm a big I don't know if I said earlier, I'm a big family man. So my family, you know, I love we love getting together, you know, making food. And when you're with family, you don't always want to sit at the table and have a family dinner. You know what I mean?
47:12Sometimes you want to watch TV, play games, dance. You know what I mean? And you want something quick to eat, you know? So make a lot of these quick, you know, appetizer, tailgate-style foods and enjoy the time with each other instead of having to sit down and, oh, pass me the mashed potatoes, pass the gravy, you know? Boring, yeah. You want wings and you want grilled cheese. Exactly. And your book is filled with these great recipes. I really enjoy seeing your style that way. Thank you. Yeah, yeah, sure. A couple more. Now, you know, you've got Instagram, you've got TikTok, you've got YouTube, maybe you've got a restaurant.
47:46But how do you expand out of social? Because, I mean, there's a lot of guys doing this. Guys, obviously, just in general, like doing this type of thing. Yeah. Many are doing it as well. Yeah. How do you go to the next level? so I think going to the next level is just about being relatable to people and spreading it the old-fashioned way man the word of mouth you know yeah power to social media definitely because you know I mean I wouldn't be where I am today without it but there's a you know there's a fine line and sticking in that social media lane and then just wanting to be that household name you know wanting to be worldwide those people who the Gordon Ramsay's you know what I mean the yeah the Betty Crocker, you know, like all these different people who just are huge that they don't have to post something every day.
48:35They don't have to have a social media presence in order to still be relatable, you know? And I think that just honestly comes with doing relatable things in person, you know, doing the groundwork, making the impact face to face, all this and that, being on different things like this podcast, you know what I mean? Doing different things that you're hitting different audiences where you might have somebody listening here that has never been on Instagram, has never been on TikTok, you know? Yeah, I mean, they're going to pick up your book. Exactly. Pick up this book. It's a full great recipe. Right.
49:05So on This Is Taste, we ask guests about their discerning taste. So to close this interview, here's a little rapid fire fast and furious taste check. All right, cool. Are you ready? Let's do it. The best dessert. The best dessert, pound cake. Oh, excellent. Do you have a recipe in the book? Yes. Okay. What makes it special? Peach cobbler on top. Nice. I like that choice. So good. The best bread. The best bread, brioche bread. Yeah, of course. And what do you like to do with brioche? Give me some... Make French toast. Yeah, of course. Or a good sandwich or grilled cheese. It's just a nice, thick, soft bread.
49:36Or I also like a baguette. You know, a baguette. Good for dips. Yeah, only... I mean, yeah. That's it. You've got to be careful with those baguettes. Right. Cut the roof of your mouth. Oh, man. No one wants that. Okay, this is a big question. The best cheese. The best cheese. I love pepper jack, man. It's the perfect cheese for sandwiches. Fully agree. We wrote a great piece about Pepper Jack back in the day. It's the best by far. I love that. Melty too. Yeah. Your favorite cookbook of all time. Favorite cookbook? I mean, it's biased. I would say mine. Okay, let's go. I mean, listen. Yeah, but so I do like, you spoke with him earlier, Joshua Wiseman.
50:17His book is amazing. Culinary mastermind. Yeah, he's great. He's really fun. And he's the perfect example that I was saying earlier about just being that authentic, you know, you can't be afraid to be yourself. People love you for being you. Yeah, it's true. A couple more. Your favorite vegetable. Vegetable. I recently got into them and I love them. If they're made right, emphasis on made right, Brussels sprouts. Oh, I mean. Again, once again, emphasis on made right. Because I had some at a restaurant one time and they were the worst thing I've ever tasted. But when they're made right, you can't go wrong.
50:53All right, so I have to ask, how do you make them right? So a little plug here. I have one in the cookbook. Yeah. So you have to cut them and get that face side nice and crispy. You know what I mean? Get it nice and crispy. Throw a little balsamic glaze on there. Seasoning can be light. Throw a little bacon, some apples in there. The apples and the bacon complement it, but it's all about the texture. Food is big on texture. You know, you got to have the different textures to bring out the elements in the food. It's like mini cabbage. Cabbage is good, too. I mean, cabbage and Brussels are pretty close.
51:23Yeah, pretty same. You know, if you can take a big cabbage and cook it face down, I feel like it tastes the same. Same thing. I love cabbage, too. Last one, your favorite sandwich. Favorite sandwich. Define a sandwich. Is a sandwich a burger? Well. Can a sandwich be a hot dog? Can it be? We've certainly dipped into this topic many times on the show. Yeah. And I have to say, a hot dog is not a sandwich. Is a burger a sandwich? Hell no. It's a burger. It's a burger. What's the difference? Okay. It's a burger. It's like, you know, it's a. Okay, so you define sandwiches like, you define like a turkey cold cut as a sandwich?
51:59100, yeah. Is it like a cheesesteak and sandwich? Yeah, 100, of course. There's not much difference in a burger and a cheesesteak, right? Burger is a solid patty on a bun. What about a meatball sub? Is that a sandwich? Meatball sandwich? Wow, we're really breaking this down. I like it. Pat Stango, help me out here. I feel like we've gone over this. Oh, yeah. Meatball is a sandwich. The reason burger is not a sandwich is because if you go to a diner, burger has got its own section. Okay. And see, I was only asking because I had a debate about that recently. And that's what I said. You know, they have their own.
52:33You go, it has burgers. Or it even say burgers, then you'll have handhelds. You know, handheld is a sandwich. You know what I mean? But to answer the question, though, if I had to say my favorite sandwich, it would have to be a turkey-like club. Yeah. But I need the turkey club with like the layers. You know how you get a club sandwich and it has the bread, crazy amount of turkey, then another slice. You know what I mean? I want it like that. I don't want a club, a thin club sandwich. No. You need more meat than bread. You can make it small, but just make sure it's nice and stacked. And put the toothpick in there.
53:06Toothpick always. Yeah. So you want mayonnaise on there too? Yeah, but no pickles. I hate pickles. Respect that choice. Renzo Espada, thank you so much for joining us today. This has been fun. Thank you. It has been.
53:19This is Taste is hosted by Eliza Abarbanel and me, Matt Rodbar. The show is produced by Shalia Harris and Pat Stango and edited by Clayton Gumbert. Theme music by Steve Rydell. Visit Taste online at tastecooking.com and make sure to subscribe to our newsletter for updates on all cool things that are happening.
From the publisher
Shelly Fireman is the owner of several New York City restaurants of acclaim and heritage, including Redeye Grill, Bond 45, and Cafe Fiorello. He’s also a very accomplished sculptor with a studio in Tuscany. On this truly amazing episode, we hear some great stories from an industry legend, like about opening the first stand-alone bagel shop in New York in the early 1960s, the Hip Bagel, as well as many more from over 50 years in the business. Get to know Shelly Fireman in this great episode.
Also on the show we have a fun interview with Lorenzo Espada, a 25 year old self-taught chef who has blown up on TikTok and has a cool debut cookbook, Somethin' Outta Nothin': 100 Creative Comfort Food Recipes for Everyone.
MORE FROM SHELLY FIREMAN AND LORENZO ESPADA:
Why Shelly Fireman Is the King of Pre Theater Dining [Town and Country]
The Hip Bagel Menu Is AMAZING [Vintage Menu Art]
Local Chef Turned His Cooking Into a Viral Sensation [Spectrum]
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