350: Angelo Sosa

0:28This episode is brought to you by Resi and American Express. I remember the first time that I was recognized. I was on 34th Street and 9th Avenue, right on the corner next to Penn Station. A bus goes by. I see, you know, all the images of all the Top Chef casts and people recognize me. And I'm like, I just couldn't believe this was my life.

0:50This is Taste. I'm your host, Matt Rodbarg.

0:59I'm thrilled to have Angelo Sosa finally on the show. Angelo is one of the most talented chefs I've gotten to know over the years. And currently, he's the chef of two really interesting restaurants in Phoenix, Tia Carmen and Kembara. Angelo was also the runner-up of a season of Top Chef, and he's worked with some of the top names in the game, including John George, Alain Ducasse, and Stephen Starr. On this episode, we talk about Angelo's TV past and dig into his passion for Asian cuisine, including his deeply creative work with Thai, Vietnamese, and Chinese flavors and techniques at his latest opening, Kembara.

1:35I so love catching up with my friend Angelo and hope you enjoy this conversation.

1:48Angelo Sosa, welcome to This Is Taste. What's up, buddy? Matt, how are you, my old friend? It's good. We've known each other for about 15 years. It's kind of awesome to reconnect with you. Oh, most definitely. When I heard your name pop up, it was just like, just brought pure joy to me and our love and affinity for Asian food and culture. Definitely, you know, we have a connection there. Completely. And I have to give you immense credit for helping kick off my personal journey in Korean cuisine back in 2011 or 2012, you had recommended me to help write a guidebook with my friend Nadia Cho. And you introduced us.

2:27And that was, I mean, listen, you are really to credit for this journey I've been on. So thank you, brother. I appreciate it. You're most welcome. Well, let's jump into your career. We'll definitely go and talk about Top Chef life and your time then, season seven. and we'll also talk about some of your journey and your travels and it's just a remarkable story, your time at John George as well. But I really want to start off with your new restaurant, Kambara, which I had the pleasure of visiting in Phoenix. And I mean, this is truly, it's a terrific, ambitious restaurant in the full scale and it represents your many interests in Asian cooking and I got to spend time with your staff and talk about menu development and it's just really a phenomenal restaurant.

3:11Phoenix is not like the hotbed for cuisine in our country. Unfortunately, in terms of like travel, people aren't traveling there, but they should. And I think you're really creating something special. And what does this restaurant represent for you? Oh, wow. What a loaded question. First of all, we were so enthralled to have you and your wife come and dine with us. It's really just a special weekend and really motivated the team and staff just to have just your culinary acumen and your language and feedback. It was just really brilliant for us. So thank you. So what does this restaurant represent for me?

3:47I mean, first of all, Kambara is, you know, we focus on Asian street food, right? From Japanese to Korean, to Vietnamese, to Thai. And then we have vignettes within that. So from, you know, focusing on cuisine in Chiang mai and khao soi curry. So it's really exciting. And there's such what I'm so enthralled and just amped about is that we're making everything in house from our sambals to our curry paste, to our noodles, to our dim sum, and taking a staff that isn't necessarily familiar with this cuisine or even just hasn't even cooked this before, just to bring this experience to the hotel and to the restaurant and to the team.

4:28Like for me, it's about elevating, elevating people's lives, elevating leaderships and really doing something, you know, provocative, you know, in Arizona. And what I will say is Kambara represents, you know, I would say my past, my present and my future, you know, my past, my love for Asian cookery. I spent a lot of time in Asia, you know, prior to even doing research for Kambara, right? And I really credit Jean-Georges. You might have heard of that. Yeah, he's a pretty good mentor of yours, I would say, a pretty big name. Most definitely. And I really just credit Jean-Georges for introducing me to Asian flavors, from the ginger to the lemongrass to galanga.

5:12And little did I know, working at his flagship restaurant for almost four years in New York City, I thought I had a good grasp of Asian food. But little did I know my first trip to Thailand, I really knew nothing. I saw different types of coriander, you know, sawtooth coriander, laksa leaf, different types of gingers, kra chai, you know, fresh turmeric. And little did I know, my mind was just open to all these exciting flavors. And I will say this, like when I talk about the present of, or even the past to the transformation of the present, I think about the provocative flavors of Asian cuisine, the sweet, the sour, the salty, the bitter, the umami, the astringent, right?

5:52And I think about these flavors, but I also think about them in the context of life, right? Like you can't have the sweet without the bitter. You can't have the bitter without the sweet or the sour, right? And, you know, my journey just hasn't been, you know, clear cut and beautiful. There's been a lot of resilience, a lot of sacrifice, a lot of, you know, triumphant and tribulations. But, you know, when I talk about my present in the future. It's just something I'm so proud to embrace essentially all of those flavors. Yeah, it's really genuine. And when you sample your food, and I've been eating your food since Social Eats in New York City and Anejo and some of your restaurants that you were opening here, and they always had a similar mindset, which was extreme like soigné, like really precise execution, creativity at the highest level, and also just a playfulness.

6:40Let me ask you about Spice Market. You opened Spice Market with John George, which is a really like fundamental restaurant, foundational restaurant in New York City. Back in the day, you know, this was a restaurant that brought these flavors of Thailand and flavors of Vietnam to the downtown crowd. John George is definitely somebody to acknowledge. You also worked at Budokan, and we'll get into that. But what was that like, like working under John George and opening this iconic restaurant? Oh my gosh. I mean, Matt, to this day, it's probably, and I generally mean this, I probably think about working with Jean-Georges at least, I'm not exaggerating, at least once a day.

7:18Whether I'm dreaming about my experience, whether I'm thinking about it, whether I'm thinking about his mantras of their simplicity and excellence, I would say Jean-Georges has the most profound effect on my life and my career. And just to work under his tutelage, I mean, When what was beautiful, because I started at the flagship restaurant on Columbus Circle, what was beautiful when you thought that you were reaching your breaking point, little did you know that he always found a way, him and his team. I credit his chef de cuisine at the time, Greg Braynon. They really just pushed you to the next level to the point of you just didn't even recognize yourself.

7:56So to be under that tutelage and in that environment, it just breeds you for the opportunity to get to the next level of your career. So I was just totally enthralled and honored and privileged to work under Chef. What were some opening dishes at Spice Market that come to mind when you're thinking about taking these dishes that were created in Thailand and Vietnam that were very historical, but then having to reframe them in some way for a downtown and fine dining? And remember, this is a long time ago. It's like 15 years ago, right? And this is a time when Asian food didn't have the voice that it does today on the national scale.

8:36I think we've really thankfully have evolved. And there's Asian chefs and Asian American chefs who are at the highest level. The James Beard Award was won by the team at Atomics, which is an incredible restaurant. They won the highest award in New York. But it was different then. So that context is important. So what were some of the dishes that you were doing then? Yeah, but let me just even start here. You're absolutely right. I feel like even today, Spice Market was one of the most iconic restaurants that I personally could think of because it's not like it was just Korean or just Japanese or just Chinese.

9:07It was a conglomerate of Thai, Vietnamese, Indian, a little Burmese, right? It was all this whole melange or panache of different cultures and cuisines in one place. And I think that was just and still is kind of revolutionary. Right. And when I think about those iconic dishes and my mouth is literally like salivating right now, if you can see me. But the the spicy chicken wings, right, served with this beautiful sliced mango that was typically chilled on the side. So you have these fiery wings that are just so, you know, spicy. But they were like I use the word like voluptuous. They just had so much dynamic.

9:45And then you cool your palate with these beautiful chilled mangoes. It was just magical. And then you had dishes like the sashimi of tuna served in this coconut broth. So it was, you know, a little spicy, a little fresh, a little, you know, it was just all this, you know, I just credit Jean-Georges for just being so dimensional and so dynamic and so innovative and all that he does. And so we kick it back to Kambara and we're getting some of this instinct. We're getting, you know, Malaysian fried rice with lime leaf and baby anchovies. We're getting chili crab. We're getting beef rendang with wagyu.

10:20And then we're getting this, probably one of my favorite dishes I tried. You sent some dishes. There's a lot. But this was the one, the tuna Thai jewel, which is, you know, sashimi of tuna in a lemongrass broth that's chilled with kiwi. and along the same lines of what you're saying about what you were, you know, with those hot wings, it was definitely a refreshing element, an unexpected cooling element. I love it. And it was served table-side, you know, poured over. And there's a level of presentation, which I love. And certainly, you know, listeners of our show, we don't see this a lot, you know, particularly in New York City.

10:52I don't see this cooking a lot. Auto Mix comes to mind. That's definitely one of the places that does those table-side tricks, which are part of a higher level of dining. And I just loved seeing it. there at Kambara. Yeah. Well, thank you for that. And when we talk about the innovation of dishes and the creation of dishes, and this is really where I spend a lot of time. So in creating the tuna dish, you know, first and foremost, I traveled throughout, specifically for Kambara, I traveled, you know, to Japan, to Chiang Mai, to Penang, to Kuala Lumpur, to Malaga, to Singapore, right? And I was just tasting and taking in information.

11:29So the conception of this dish was, right? Because I want to do something innovative and creative. So I was thinking a lot about the Thai imperial cuisine of the king and the queen and how, you know, ornate they dress and opulent they dress. And I thought about their jewelry. And I thought about this dish of a Thai jewel. So when you go to Thailand, they typically have just coconut shaved ice with coconut milk. And then they have tapioca fruits and vegetables. And I was like, okay, how could I take the conception of this idea and make it a little bit more whimsical, add tuna with it. Then we add kiwi, Asian pear, shiso, Thai basil, and then pour with this beautiful Japanese style, you know, iron tea kettle, table side, this beautiful fragrant lemongrass and galangal broth.

12:14And it brings this beautiful visual and textural experience to the guest. Angela, I love that so much, the way that you talk about the precision and the thought that goes into it. And what's unique about Kambara and just your style of cooking, and I think this goes back to your time cooking in northern spain um you are a test kitchen driven chef which is cool and to be clear i want to talk about this a little bit um you aren't necessarily in the kitchen with all of your staff all the time you're in a lab essentially creating recipes and and really like coming up with the concept and the recipe to the gram on your own and then eventually you bring it to a staff, you staff up and you train, train, train, train.

12:58This is like a Mugaritz model, which I know you've worked at. So I think this is definitely something to talk about. Yeah, it's very interesting, right? And I feel like, you know, seeds were planted back in the JG days, right? Of menu development, right? A dish probably didn't go on the menu for about, you know, it had to go through a process of, I'm just, you know, approximately three months. But what we do is one, first and foremost, we travel. My business partner and I travel. As I said, for Kambar, we specifically went to all of those countries that I mentioned. We went to Penang, Kuala Lumpur, Malacca, Chiang Mai, and we do deep, deep, deep dives into the food.

13:39So when we're in Chiang Mai, we literally had over 20 different versions of khao soi so that we could really understand what makes khao soi, khao soi, what are the stories behind khao soi. And then I come back to the States. I go into a test kitchen here in San Diego. So this process for Combarba was about three months. And we just start with what are some concepts, like a concept, right? So a concept could be a Thai jewel, right? So what makes a Thai jewel a Thai jewel? Or what makes a satay a satay? Like what are the key ingredients? And then how do we add thoughtfulness? How do we add innovation?

14:14And how do we be intentional where the guests, it's familiar to them, but it's also with something that could be new, right? So it goes through this process. So then we create the dish. A lot of these dishes will make anywhere from three to seven times to really think about it. Because we also have to think about during the conception stage and the R &D stage, we have to think about it in production. So if one dish takes 30 minutes to plate, is that a practical dish to have on a menu that we're doing high bump? I mean, is it sometimes the case? Can you spend 30 minutes on plating? Is that possible?

14:48Well, a great example is the dish that we're talking about is the tuna Thai jewel. I mean, I would say without looking at the recipe right now, there's probably over only on the pickup itself. There's 15 touches, right? So there's things that we, I would say, mitigate that, you know, will, for example, instead of plating each herb, if I was in a three Michelin star restaurant, I'd plate each herb, you know, by itself. But now we combine the herbs. So we essentially find ways to, without compromising the integrity of the dish and the ingredients, how do we minimize steps? Man, there's so many cool, I love the Malaysian fishhead curry, which, you know, I think seeing that in the context of a JW Marriott, which has a great golf course, which has, you know, it's definitely not the place you're typically going to find a fishhead curry.

15:35But when you eat it, you're like, wow, this takes me to this place that's far away from here. It's delicious. It's precise. I mean, I love that dish so much. I think fish awful is the greatest thing. Fish cheeks, you get a little bit of fish brain in there, a little eyeball. I mean, it's like deep, intense flavors. How are you thinking about serving that to like, you know, an audience of foodies and people who love cuisine, but then, you know, you got people come there for a convention or a golf outing. How do you split that difference? Sure, sure, sure. I love the question. Thank you. Well, I think two things here.

16:07So we are going to have those fish curry dishes, right? Maybe might come across as, I don't think it's going to be top of our pig mix of sellers, but what I do think that's very important to me is the level of staying in integrity and staying within the vision of the concept and not compromising that integrity. Because at the end of the day, you know, if somebody is really not into fish head curry and they want a chicken satay, they're going to have their chicken satay. And what I think is if they love that chicken satay or they love our dim sum, I believe there's a relationship that's being, you know, there's a connection.

16:41There's a level of trust being, you know, coming to life. And then that's when I could easily walk over and I'd be like, hey, would you mind trying this? And maybe I don't present the fish head in itself, but I'll take a little bit of the broth and I'll let a guest taste it. so sometimes it is for people but sometimes it's not but that's okay because there's a dish for everybody i love it okay this is the top chef portion of our interview we're gonna talk we're gonna go there and you are an alum of top chef you were on season seven way back you were a runner up man you like almost won that shit you were very close to winning it i'm sure at the time you were bummed but now you're you're doing so many cool things my first question is how did you get on the show and how was the audition you know i have dale tall they'll link to that episode in the show notes he talked about his audition when he was working at buddhacon how what was your audition like oh my gosh you're bringing up i gotta go back back back back into my memory bank thank you so much for rehashing let's go there so so at this point in my career i couldn't even tell you a year to be honest with you so this was season seven so just for the record i did season seven season eight and I believe 17.

17:47So I did the trilogy of the Top Chef experience, right? So at this point in my career, I had, you know, left Jean-Georges. I'd worked for Jean-Georges for about four years. I spent some time with Alain Ducasse in Monaco and in Paris and, you know, was very blessed to stage in Spain at some really good, good, good restaurants, right? So Top Chef, in fact, reached out to me their casting crew reached out to me and i was just like okay hey you know i'm not really sure this makes sense you know with my you know kind of my trajectory um you know i really think i kind of want to go down this avenue of like exploring more the michelin star and i'm not sure being on a reality tv because at that point in time reality television was kind of was somewhat new right so i kind of was very hesitant to be honest with you i i give credit to uh you know Magical Ellison Top Chefs, they were very persistent, I'll just say.

18:43And eventually, I think the competitive side of me was like, okay, like, hey, this does sound like an amazing, amazing opportunity. Imagine, you know, you, you know, Dale Tallade, you mentioned Dale Tallade, like, imagine cooking with Dale Tallade, imagine cooking with Tiffany Derry, imagine cooking with Carla Hall to list some of my favorite people, right? Like, what an honor. Like, it's almost like going to like MIT or Harvard or Stanford for continuing education. So I was like, okay, yeah, I'm all in at this point in time. Did they make you do anything in particular in an audition setting? Did they put you into a quick fire?

19:15Oh, no. Okay, this was my audition, right? Okay, I'm going to try to bullet this pretty quickly because I don't want to take an hour of your time. So at this point, they flew me out to LA. And previously to this, I did a Tony Robbins, you know, an event, right? So I had like all my mantras down. So they're like, okay, Angelo, we're gonna, we're gonna come tomorrow morning. You know, they obviously lock you in the hotel room, which you can't get out. I'm sure you do. But they're like, we're going to come tomorrow at 11 o 'clock. So around 10, 1030, 1015, I'm like, I got into my like Tony Robbins state of mind.

19:52I'm doing pushups. I'm doing sit ups. I walk into the to the bathroom. And I'm like pumping on my chest. I could do this. I could do this. I could do this. 11 o 'clock rolls around. Nobody shows up. I'm like, okay, you know, don't worry. Stay focused. State of mind. Everything's state of mind. 1130 passes around. Okay, go back to the mirror. Do this. You can do this. Anyways, I'm waiting And essentially four hours later at this point in time, I'm on the couch just chilling out watching TV. I think it was like Judge Judy. And I'm just like, okay, they're not coming. When they knocked on the door finally, I'm like, yeah.

20:22I'm like, can you give me 10 minutes? They're like, sure. Okay. Anyway, so I'm going to fast forward a little bit. They bring us into this room. It takes about 20 minutes to get there. You have to jump through all these little hoops. I don't have my glasses on. I can't see. But all I see is about 15 to 20 people against a back room. The room is gigantic. I see a camera in the middle of the room with a chair, right? And a bottle of water. Okay. So I run in, I high five everybody. I don't even know what the heck comes over me. I sit on the chair and I knew this was going to be the first question.

20:53And they're like, so why do you want to be on TV? So yeah, granted, Matt, I could barely see them. Okay. I'm like nervous. All the Tony Robbins, like mantras are out of my head and I get up and I just, and I just start talking and I'm like, Like, well, you know, my voice is like really high pitch and it starts cracking. I'm like, okay, this is not going well. So I literally stand up. I don't know what came over me. I stand up. I grab the bottle of water. I drink the bottle of water. Like I just ran like a 10K. It's like going everywhere. Like I'm totally drenched in it. I don't know what came over me.

21:28I took the chair. I flung the chair to the wall and I said, excuse me, what was the question? And I just got right back to that state of mind. And after that, I think it was a wrap. So Angela, you get on the show. You clearly are cast, but you're not like one of these competitors. And listen, I haven't gone back and watched the episodes, but I remember it. You weren't one of these competitors who was going to go down quiet. You seemed, from my memory, and please correct me, but you were super competitive. Like you were definitely there to win. And let me ask you, did you know that you had this like killer instinct to win when you went and started doing the show?

22:05Are you saying I was a sniper? Is that what you're saying? I mean, you weren't like a heel villain, but I think you probably were framed slightly as a heel villain at some point during the show, if I remember. Well, let me put it this way, Matt. I'm not sure if it's my Dominican side and, you know, Dominican and let's use the analogy, right? Like I played baseball my whole career, so I naturally competed. This is what I will say is on that platform of being on main stage in the kitchen, like I felt like I was just dreaming in real time. and that can be competing with the Tiffany Darius, the Kevin Spragas, the Dale Tallades, the Carla Halls, you know, like all those amazing chefs that I love and adore, they bring out the best in you.

22:47So I don't know if I just consciously was aware of that. I was just like really focused in the moment. I almost was like on such a high that I was just so privileged to be there and competing. I think the actually the other chefs, in fact, brought the best out of me. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Back then, too, just listener, this is no diss about the current chefs on the show. And listen, this show is rated highly as now that it was back then. So more people love it. But back when you were doing it, they were recruiting from only the finest restaurants. Literally, it had to be Budokan, John George, Per Se, Spago.

23:23It was really high-end restaurants and really, really, really, really technical chefs. And it's changed slightly. I feel um you guys clearly were there to to really compete at the highest level and the cuisine was really high level yeah most definitely i mean you know like you know you know i competed against richard blaze like just just to like even like that's why sometimes i would just like race and work really effectively and really quick is because i wanted to like pause and observe and like take in the and be that sponge. I mean, to be honest with you, Matt, it was like rising tides. To be with the Richard Blazes of the world, the Tiffany Darius, the Dale Todd days, it was like, I was just, it was like continuing education.

24:07So you end up getting second place and that's like really nice. I mean, you didn't win, but man, you're like getting media, you're doing all sorts of things. What's life like after Top Chef? I mean, I've spoken, I know several cast members from different years and the variance of experiences is really, really interesting. Some folks kind of flame out, some folks can become like professional chefs and go to the private world. But you know, it must have been filled with like some super highs, but also some downs too. It's just like hard to come down from that. Sure, sure. It's a deep question. Yeah, it is.

24:38And you're honest too. I appreciate you're honest about this stuff. Like and that's really interesting because I talk about like my living legacy and living legacy for me is also being transparent because if I could offer some sort of insight that supports somebody young and are up and coming or just going through anything in life, I think that's important to impart wisdom to them. But getting back to Top Chef, you know, here's the deal. I grew up in a town, you know, in Durham, Connecticut, a farming town, grew it next to cornfields, you know, chicken farms, we'd have milk delivered to our doors.