355: The Taste of Things with Director Trần Anh Hùng

0:28This episode is brought to you by Resi and American Express. I always want a movie to look like a piece of music. It has a musical quality in there. So with all the sound that was made in the kitchen, it was enough in this movie.

0:52This is Taste. I'm your host, Matt Rodbard.

0:59Today we are excited to welcome award-winning director Tran An Hung into the studio. His latest film, The Lush and Food Center, The Taste of Things, is in theaters now. It stars Juliette Binoche in a cast of characters who cook and cook and cook and cook for friends and visitors with a passion that transcends the idea of the modern foodie. Detailed, painstaking process cooking and late 19th century suiting is a major thread here, with food scenes aided by the eye of legendary international chef Pierre Gagné. We speak with the director about bringing this universe to life and the food of his childhood growing up in Da Nang, Vietnam.

1:37It's such a great talk and I hope you enjoy this conversation.

1:49Tren An Hung, welcome to This is Taste. How are you doing? I'm fine, thank you. It's an honor to meet you. I think of food and television as having a real moment, and food and film has been more of a moment in our history. And I just wanted to start by just asking you, you know, there's so many great food-centric films out there. Babette's Feast comes to mind, Big Night, Tumpo Poo, which is a favorite of mine. There's also amazing television, as I mentioned. We've got The Bear, of course. We've got Japan's Midnight Diner. I don't know if you're familiar with that show. No, I haven't seen all of this.

2:25Yeah, it's okay. This isn't a quiz. But before the filming of The Taste of Things, let's get into what were you thinking about with doing a movie about food? Oh, yes, because I always want to make a movie about art. And I choose cuisine. because for me, we can show it, everything real on the screen. That's why cuisine was something that was interesting for me. And also because food and love are the two sources of sensuality in our life. So it was important for me to deal with it. Yeah, and it is much of a story about marriage and love as it is about food. and we're going to try to go a little spoiler-free here.

3:15But, of course, we need to talk about the before and after death. I think that's important. It's part of the movie. But first, let's talk about Scoffier because the context is that this is 1880s Loire Valley. This is in France. Yes, and there was one line very important for me said by Daudin. He said that there is only 13 years that, you know, separate the death of Antonin Carême and the birth of Auguste Escoffier. And Carême is, you know, he's known as an ancestor of the cuisine, French cuisine. And on the other side, Escoffier, he's the man who brought the cuisine into the modern time. So it's quite interesting that there is only 13 years between the two of them.

4:16So it shows how much, you know, the food, the thinking of the food is very vivid and very, it develops very quickly. These two individuals are important in food history and we've written books about both of them. I love the line as well. With Escoffier, we dream of the future. It's a great line. I think Dodin says that. And let me ask you from your research, what was so futuristic about Escoffier's cooking and many of the techniques that are being shown? Some of them are very traditional. And we're going to get into some of the cooking because it's incredible. But what does that mean, the future with Escoffier?

5:01Oh, it's because it was the first time with César Ritz. they are going to build a palace, meaning that they are going to serve a lot of dishes at the same time in a big place. And this is a new organization of the kitchen. And yes, and this was the modernity of it. And so somehow he brought democracy in the food because more people can have access to it. If not, you have to wait a very long time to have a table. And here in that kind of palace, a lot of people can be served at the same time. So this is the legacy that he gave because just after this first one in the south of France, then London would ask him to come and build all the palaces for them.

6:07And then the English language experienced the brigade system, which Escoffia creates from a militaristic background that creates this new efficiency, the modernity you speak of so well. And we're off to the races with a new style of dining and restaurants. Backing up a little bit, we've got this character, Dodin-Bouffant, who I just like I want to ask you about this guy because he is obviously he is of means. he has a house that has a kitchen, and they cook all the time, and it's painstaking. And it appears in the film that it's based on a novel. It's for friends. It's for guests. It's not a commercial endeavor.

6:50He's not charging money. So what is this, in 1880s France, in Loire Valley, what is happening here that I think a lot of people are questioning? Is this just the biggest foodie ever? Oh, yes, I think because at that time you have a lot of recipes that is old and you don't even know how to cook it. And because at that time, recipes are not precise as you have today, meaning that you don't have, you know, there is no description of you need 20 grams of this and that. So it's something that looks like a poem and you have to read it and you have to guess the flavor of it. And then you need a very good cook.

7:38And this was the role of Eugénie in the movie. She has to find a way to create this dish that comes from a very old recipe and you have to rediscover it. And you need to have a very good palate to be able to create the dish. That's why it's a fool for him. He's a rich man. He doesn't have to work. And he has lands and properties and things like that. So he spent his time trying to revive all the old recipes. And then he has this little group of men, of friends, who share it with him. And they wear the most well-cut suits with heavy fabrics. And then they're eating a lot. It just seems very uncomfortable dying like that.

8:32Oh, yes. Yes, it's the case. And since during the shooting of the movie, since everything was real, the cooking, everything was real. So the actors for the scenes where they have to eat, they eat a lot. So when I said cut, they keep on eating, you know. And so the assistants, they have to stand next to them and hurry them, you know, quick because we need to reset everything. So during the shooting, they gain weight. And my wife, who is taking care of the war rub, she told me that, you know, she has to enlarge it. And so by the end of the shooting, she came to me and she said, this scene, you have to shoot it unbuttoned because there's no room to enlarge it and they cannot button.

9:23This is such a good moment. I think it's great directing because you've got these expressions for some of the actors, the four men. And then, of course, you've got Benoit Majamel, who's the patron. And they're looking like they've had a lot of food and a little bit of wine, too. And they're like not, they're like kind of uncomfortable. Yes, yes. But, you know, normally for shooting of the movie, you don't drink real wine. Yeah. Because you get, you know, drunk. Not on Hung's set, apparently. For Benoit, suddenly he asked for real wine. So everybody was, you know, I mean, the producer would come and he said, Come on, you know, you should not.

10:09He said, let me manage it. And then he just tastes enough to have the real flavor of the food and everything. So the other actors were enjoying him for that. Did you watch this miniseries Irva Vep at all? What? Irva Vep. Do you know this? It was on HBO, at least in the States. No, no. It's a film that's a film within a film, but there's a lot of behind the scenes of actors and eating. And it reminded me of, it's just the comedy of being on set and eating food and drink and like, bring me the real wine. I can imagine. Back a little bit to Dodan. It's just such a curious and just intriguing to me because, you know, I'm a food writer.

10:50I also like Dodan. I'm like looking at old recipes. I'm not the rich guy though, who gets to have a, you know, somebody cooking for him. But was this a common practice in, like 19th century France? Oh yes, of course. Because all this is because of Bria Savarin. He wrote this book and it was the beginning of the thinking about food, how to find the right words to describe the taste and everything. So it became a kind of concha. And so rich people, they used to have, to organize these kind of dinner and with a lot of, how would you say, rules and things like that. And so there are, you know, at that time, there are books that are like bestsellers at that time.

11:49It's these books are there to somehow to learn people to have good conversation around the table. You need to say things in a certain way to be funny and not too profound because you don't want to be boring, not to be profound. So everything needs to be said quickly in a certain way, et cetera. And you have that kind of books at that time that give you some topics. Oh, yeah. Savant is like the first original food writer. I mean, we think of him as the grandfather of actual food writing. And the fact that there is like a rubric for speaking about cuisine and also about ancient cuisines and things like the Ortolans, which you cover in a way.

12:37And the Ortolan scene, which is an ancient practice, I've never seen it done like that. It's very commonly done in cinema. You've seen the Ortolan. But the fact that it was done with less ceremony, almost workmanlike, but still important and rare. I like that. You really achieved something masterful there. Oh, yes. Thank you. It's quite funny. You know, the scene. Yes. So that's why I didn't want to see the actual bird being consumed. You don't show it. Yes, I didn't show it because it's more interesting to see them covered with this fabric on their head. Because the idea is to – because you have to wait until the bird is not too hot to put the whole bird in your mouth.

13:27So to avoid burning yourself, then you have to wait a little bit. So with these sheets of fabric on the head is to keep the smell of it inside. So it won't escape. And since you have to chew the whole bird, then sometimes you have some fat coming out of your mouth or things like that. So you have to hide yourself. That's amazing, Hung, that you say, you articulate the actual workmanlike consumption of an ordelon and not the glamorized, you know, portrayal in cinema. Another scene I want to talk about is, it's a gâteau or a pan, I'm not sure what it is, but it's a circular pastry or a bread. And it's placed at the center of a table.

14:16Juliette Binoche brings it out. It's placed there. And then they look at it. And then the way you capture the expressions and the way that they dig in with their hands to eat the bread, it's like we've all thought about eating bread that way, but we don't do it. You've captured something very special that I think we recognize even today. Yes, it's a brioche. Oh, it's a brioche. Yes, it's a brioche. And yes, I mean, they ate all the time. So, yes, this scene was normally, you know, people would, I mean, Eugénie would bring a knife and cut it. So I didn't like it. I liked the idea of seeing them, you know, grabbing it and torn it and, you know, just eat it like this very casually.

15:07Let's talk about Pierre Garnier, famous, world famous French chef and Michelin star holder. And I would say, you know, he had a presence in Korea in like the 1990s and early 2000s, including in other cities, too, in London as well. I'm a very famous chef, but he's the consultant on the film. And I read that he cooked for a week kind of defining these menus because like Big Night, there's set pieces in the filmmaking. There's like actual meals that you're showing in a beautiful way. And I think everyone should go watch the movie in theaters now and it'll be on VOD, I'm sure. at some point. Now, let me ask you, when Pierre Gagnon, you are talking about these dishes, how are you constructing it as the director and as the chef?

15:50Is he like, are you guys having like a little back and forth, a little like, is there some tense moments? Oh, no, no. Pierre, he's a very kind man. And I was lucky to be able to work with him. And so the idea is we discuss about, what I would like to see on the screen. We needed some dishes that can show how much the cooking of it is quite sophisticated. For instance, you have this, to cook a chicken, you need to make a broth out of two chickens. And then when you have it, then you can cook the chicken. A double stock. It's a double stock. Yes, exactly. So all this was something that I really like.

16:43To see, for instance, the salad, the lettuce, put in boiled water is something that's quite impressive for me. And to see how it becomes very small at the end and then cook again. All this, you know, show that everything is quite sophisticated. it. And that's what I would like to bring to the audience. It's the way that produce is presented and pulled from the garden and there's like kohlrabi or parsnip or some kind of root vegetable being peeled and turned. And, you know, your sound design, you're just, you're getting it right. It's sounding exactly as you'd imagine the most desirable way. And I mean, how do you get your actors to actually do this work?

17:30Is it just a lot of study by them? No, they quite enjoy it. Of course they do. They get a lesson in cooking. Yes. Normally, I asked them to give me a week of training, but they were so busy. And they could only give me half a day of training. but it was enough because in real life they cook themselves. So for them it was just a pleasure. I can see it when they cook. So of course for some scenes that I think that could be dangerous because we work with fire, we work with boiled water and knife and things like that. So for some very specific things, I wanted to have double for their hands. So I cast two, one for each.

18:31But finally, we never used them. Oh, wow. Yes, because Benoit and Juliette, they want to do everything by themselves. Yeah, I mean, like, come on. Like, it's kind of a great gig for them to learn from Pierre Garnier, to have these, like, I mean, if you are into copper pots, listeners, you're going to get your copper pot cooking. I mean, beautiful cookware. Was that something you sourced? Is that like antique cookware? Oh, yes. It's something that is quite easy to find. In fact, we have to choose, in fact, the color, the right color of the copper, things like that. but to find them it was quite easy because you have a lot of collectors they kept all this so it's marvelous it really was because the sound is different all the sound it's much more enjoyable somehow it's like playing with very good instruments yeah good metaphor because it seems like especially with the funneling of liquid to liquid.

19:43I mean, this is like obviously this is very classic cooking and it's the heart of cooking for what we like our building blocks and you're straining a lot of liquids. Those big funnels are used all the time. Yes, yes. The sound of the water is important. The water. Yes, in the soundtrack. That's why I didn't use music at all. until the end. Because what I always like to bring to the audience is the feeling of a momentum of cinema, meaning that I always want a movie to look like a piece of music. It has a musical quality in there. So with all the sound that was made in the kitchen and also the sound from the outside, from the nature, it was enough in this movie.

20:41Let's transition. I want to hear a little bit about your childhood. You grew up in Da Nang, Vietnam, and I've had the pleasure of visiting Da Nang and Hoi An and Hue and all the beautiful towns on the Central Coast. And there's no more spectacular place to visit and the people generous and so skilled at cooking dishes. What was food like for you growing up oh it's everything of course it's uh it shaped my my my taste uh so everything that you you you like when when you are a child and um you ate it during a period of your life that you are very happy about everything uh then it will stay and uh and you keep on you know looking for for for for these tastes in your life, you know.

21:34And so today, for instance, I eat more and more very simple, you know, very simple food. And, of course, it has to connect with my childhood memories. And, yes, I eat, you know, a lot of things. And because we are from the working class, My parents, they make clothes. And so everything around me was quite ugly. And the only place that was beautiful was the kitchen of my mother. And you're eating like Mekong and Khao Lao. Are those any dishes that you ate at all? Are those part of the... Yes, of course. I know all these dishes. Khao Lao, to me, just a spectacular dish. So good. Yes, exactly. And you were there during the war.

22:28Yes, I was there during the war, but I was in a place that I didn't see much about war. And then quickly I moved to Laos, where I stayed for five or six years in Laos before going to France at the age of 12. At the age of 12, you moved to France. Are you living in France currently or living in Vietnam currently? Yes, currently I live in France. You live in France. Yes, in Paris. In Paris. But you make it back to Vietnam a bit? Yes, a lot. Because, yes, I think that in the future I would split my time half-half, you know, in Vietnam and in France. Yeah, that sounds pretty great. Yes. Tell me, I haven't been to Vietnam in a decade.

23:14I'd like to go back. What's in Vietnam as a French tourist or as an American tourist? I'd just love to get your take as a local. How am I visiting Vietnam? I'd like to open that up a little bit, that question. Oh, I don't know. I think that you should go to the three places of Vietnam. In the north, Hanoi, in the center, Da Nang, and in the south, Ho Chi Minh City. Because the food is, you know, very different from each place. and in the north, it's more salty and in the south, more sweet. And yes, you have to do this long trip. It's a beautiful trip. If you could go from north to the south, I've had the pleasure of doing that.

24:04Are you getting good Vietnamese food in Paris? Is there a restaurant? Are you mostly cooking at home in Paris? No, it's at home because my wife, she's a very good cook and she cooks all kinds of food, Vietnamese, French, Italian, Japanese. Oh, right on. Yes, yes. Indian. She sounds like Eugenie a little bit. Yes, yes. She is. And she can, you know, try a new dish. And she always succeeds. Oh, wow. It's quite amazing. So on the set of the film, are you drinking any very good wines, any old wines to celebrate? I mean, in the film, you see some bottles that were like 50 years old at the time. were going back into the early 19th century.

24:46Are you getting a little bit like celebrating with a nice wine? No. No. The wine was really organic wine that we had for lunch. Sometimes someone would like to have wine, and we had this wine, but not the one that is shown in the movie because it's very expensive, and we didn't have money enough for this movie. Yeah, it was an indie film. I mean, not an indie film, but it was shot in like, what, two months? Like 50 days? Yes, 32 days. Yeah. Yes. Yeah, you move fast. Yes. It's a beautiful film. I really want our listeners to seek it out and it's out in theaters now. And I believe, is there a VOD planned in the United States?

25:36Do you know? Yes, maybe. I'm sure. Yeah, there'll be something, a way to see it. But definitely seek it out. And I want to ask just finally, you know, now that you've done this food film and I know food has always been part of your filmmaking. What's the future for you? Do you feel connected to this era in France? I mean, personally, so interesting to see late 19th century, the birth of gastronomy coming to life. I want more. That's what I'm trying to say. Yes, I chose this period because it was more interesting for me in terms of filmmaking. Because when you choose the modern time, everything is different.

26:17The light in the kitchen, everything was, you know, like a white light. So it was not central enough for me. And I wanted to have this light of, you know, at the end of the 19th century because we have the door, the light coming in from the door, from the windows. And also because of what Eugénie said about herself, that she liked summer and the heat inside of her. So I wanted the light to reveal her character somehow. So the light of the movie is very warm. and when it's cold, we know that something is wrong. And in fact, it's her being sick. Yeah, you're a real auteur hung. And I believe the last shot or one of the final shots is a circle, is like a pan and the light changes during that scene from day to night, I believe.

27:28It's what my reading is. Maybe that's not correct, but I'm glad you called out light. You're here like 30 minutes in the podcast. You maybe watch the movie. It's just the craftsmanship and the way you've shot the film and especially the food was amazing. Yes, because we saw so many movies and broadcast about food. And so when I decided to make this movie, I wanted to avoid, you know, something like beauty shots on the dish or things like that. So everything needs to be in movement to be different from, you know, what we have seen before. And to give somehow the real time for the actors to cook things.

28:20so I'm for the big the scene of the beginning of the movie the cooking scene I divide it in three long shots to cover you know this cooking so everything looks very real just because you don't have that kind of editing that is more about entertainment editing You know, here it's something that respects the reality of what is going on on the screen. And so everything needs to be in movement. So I can see at the same time a ballet. I can see their body moving around. See their hands, their faces and, you know, the food being cooked at the same time. Yeah, you've got the reaction shots. You've got the wides.

29:16You've got all the coverage for these long shots. it's beautiful how it's edited and definitely the pot de foie, we haven't talked about even that and that's the original name I believe switched in America but it's a dish that is common, right? It's a commoner's dish but you're able to, it's almost, it is definitely a metaphor and there's definitely symbolism in it as well so, but this dish comes to life in a cool way did you have a connection to that growing up in France as a 12 year old? Oh yes, I think that every French you know know this dish. It's something that is really common. Explain it a little bit so our listeners know.

29:51Yes, it's a beef. We cook with a lot of water and vegetables. And so you cook it for a very long time. And of course, you cannot eat everything, you know, in one meal. So you have to reheat it for the next day and reheat it again the next day. And each time it's getting better and better. And you can also finish with, you know, when you have some beef left, you can slice it thin and then make a salad with it. And it's just amazing. And today, all the big chefs in France, especially in winter, they have their own interpretation of the pot au feu. And it's, of course, much more sophisticated. The first time that I met Pierre Gagnère, he served in his restaurant, you know, the pot de feu.

30:47So I tasted it in his kitchen, you know, just standing in his kitchen. And the pot de feu came in, I think, something like seven different dishes. And each time you try one, the flavor of the pot de feu is there, but with something new. and it's like rediscovering this dish and it was fabulous. Yeah, what an amazing project. I mean, just being able to enter this world of gastronomy and really dedicate yourself to it and check the film out. Hang on, this is Taste. We asked guests about their discerning taste. So to close this interview, here's a little rapid fire, fast and furious. Taste check, are you ready?

31:33Yes. Okay. The best fruit. Appear. The worst vegetable.