356: Jamila Robinson

29:45It could be Cleveland. It could be, you know, Toronto. How do you bring that energy to BA? Because I feel you want to give your readers, Rex, where to eat, what to do. I'm really excited about doing so much more of that. We have a feature called Best in Town and it is taking a local expert taking you through their city. So we're going to take you to Chicago and see some of the best hot dogs and understand the essence of a Chicago hot dog, the DNA of a a Chicago hot dog, that poppy seed bun. You've got to have some pickles. You've got to have tomatoes. You've got to have that little salad. That is essentially Chicago.

30:22And being able to tell you through a hot dog, a story about Chicago. So we're going to be doing so much more of taking people into cities with experts and telling them all of the quirky places they can eat. We're going to Portland. And those are features you're going to start to see every single month. I think it's really important to have relationships with cities and that a magazine like Bon Appetit really should be on the pulse of cities, not only in the U.S., but across the globe, being able to tell you about all of the special restaurants in Lima, Peru, taking you on a new insider's guide to Paris where we go on a jollof rice trail.

31:06We would have gone to the cafes and bistros, but Paris is so different than it was 20 years ago. And we want to go in the lens of Lindsay Tremuda, the new Parisienne. So how does that look like in food? So I want to take inspiration from other kinds of city guys, whether that is through travel or through art, and then being able to bring that all the fascinating restaurant and culinary experiences, through dining and travel, through cafes and bakeries, but also like this little cafe in Portland that's also a record store that gives you just a well-rounded experience. Let's move on to home cooking, which is another big part of BA, the BA universe.

31:54I read in your editor's letter, got a nice kitchen. So let me ask you about what do you enjoy about home cooking, just straight up, Jamila? I get lost in the kitchen. I say in my editor's letter that it It is where I find energy and creativity. If I need to think really hard about something, I dive into making a pound cake or I roll out some pastry. I take my aggression out on a salad spinner. I love cooking at home. It is when you eat at restaurants a lot. I find so much energy of being able to cook for myself and put something really beautiful together and sit down. I think cooking is an act of love.

32:36And even if you're cooking for yourself, that is like you are feeding, you're refilling your cup, literally. Yeah, literally. So, and I, but I also love having company. I love having people over when I invite people over. I cook. I love making pies and stews and pastry and I make pasta from scratch. And, and I love being able to put together a four or five course meal for my friends with a spectacular dessert. What's the dessert? Let's go there. What's your one that you're going to have most times? It depends. I make pies. Oh, cool. I'm really into pies because I think cakes are... I have a philosophy that cakes are for celebrations, but pies are for sharing.

33:26Buy it. Buy it. So you're a pie over cake. And anything can be a pie. Not everything can be a cake, but almost anything can be a pie, pot pie, pizza pie, quiche. but for dessert I'll probably make some kind of pie. I also make ice cream from scratch. Usually there's ice cream. Do you have a, are you doing like Paco Jet, not to quote the menu, or are you doing like KitchenAid attachment? I use a Breville Smart Scoop. It's a good one. And I just go, I might, and usually I make three or four at a time. I'll make the custard and then I'll break the custard and I'll usually have a sorbet And I usually like to have at least one plant-based one for my friends who can't have dairy.

34:09Do you consider it into that? Yeah. Well, you know, I have some food allergies. I'm allergic to peanuts. I'm that person on the airplane that they make the announcement about. Oh, yeah, yeah. I have a life-threatening allergy to peanuts. I'm allergic to some tree nuts. So I'm very sensitive about other people's dietary restrictions because I don't always remember to disclose that I'm allergic to peanuts. and then I walk into a room and I can't breathe. Oh, it just really does fill you up with that. Oh, wow. So I like to think about how can I be inviting? That's an invitation to know what people's dietary restrictions are and making some adjustments and thinking about, like, my little goddaughter can't have dairy.

34:55So, okay, I'm always going to have something that's non-dairy. I want to have something that is gluten-free. I want to have something that people can just sink into, very comforting. And then being able to let people put things together. So usually every year by the holidays, I throw a pie party. And I make eight or 12 different kinds of pies, sweet and savory. You fill up on pies. Yeah, it sounds like quite the prep. It's a lot of pies. It's a lot of pies. It's fun. It's fun. All right. So let me ask you about the grocery store, CPG Land products. You know, I'm personally really interested in this world.

35:42And I think it's a bit of a boom happening in the covering of new products. I wonder, do you have any favorite new products or founders that you come across in your reporting? I mean, some of the products that I'm interested in are spices like the Diaspora Company. Um, there are, you know, all of the spices that you would get from like a burlap and barrel that really are well sourced. Um, I actually don't use a lot of, um, packaged foods at home. I, I go, I'm a, I'm a market person. I go to the farmer's market. I walk, I grab, I'm a person who goes to the grocery store every day. I go see what's there and I chop up what I decide whatever I'm going to eat and I will make the meal from scratch from there.

36:33I do. I have found some very interesting like peppers. I love to go to farmers markets and buy what they have locally sourced and things that they've jarred. So it really depends on what's happening at the market. Those are the things that I'll buy, especially honeys, things that are fermented. I'm very I am very interested in fermented beverages and and and finding like all of these interesting bubbly things, the spritzes and things of that nature. But for cooking, I'm usually I'm usually like, you know, go chop up your own garlic. All right. Right on. Do you follow founders journeys? Do you follow like a founder story?

37:18Are you interested in that world? Not really. Not really. I mean, I am. I mean, I am from a, how can I say from a, I'm interested in those things from a business standpoint. But in my own cooking, I'm more of the farmer's market person. Last question. Do we have too many recipes? Can there ever be too many recipes? That's the follow-up question. Recipes are a kind of story, a form of storytelling. And I think to consider that there are too many recipes would be as if to say there are too many stories. They're guideposts. What changes is the relationship you have with that recipe and how do you build a relationship with that recipe.

38:06Some things, my grandmother's sweet potato pie is a very, very specific recipe, but I tweak it a little bit because of how I want to make the pastry. and how I want to press, how I want to crimp the crust, how I want to use a little bit of egg white, a little egg wash around the crust and then sprinkle some sugar on it. Those are things that you add to a recipe. You start to tell your own little story with that recipe. So I don't think that there can be too many. I do think that one of the great things about Bon Appetit and the work that we have done, we've tested these recipes so rigorously that we know the recipes are good.

38:52We know that they are great foundations. We know that they are great starting points. So you can start to add your story to that. And they end up becoming these things that people cook for a generation. So much so that if you remember that Jimmy Fallon meme, he's talking about his mother cooking her cheesecake and come to find out it was, oh, this cheesecake is amazing. And everybody talks about it and loves it. Turns out it was a Bon Appetit recipe, but it became her recipe. And I think that when you have 60 ,000 recipes, you're going to find the ones that help define who you are and how you want to cook and what that means.

39:31I think you got yourself a cover star, Jimmy and his mom, cover a BA. I think so. I think so. Would you ever put a person on the cover again? That happened like one time, right? that was a big controversy. I am not opposed to having people on the cover. I, I'm. Thank you. I am. I think it's very, very important that we be sure to include people and food that, that there, we don't put distance between who is cooking and who is serving. Sometimes, especially with women, we will show them only, you know, from the chest up or show their hands, but never faces and presence and bodies and shoulders.

40:14And I think it's really important to have as many people in the pages and throughout the brand, in the pages of the magazine and throughout the brand to be sure that we are bringing the humanity of food with the stories of food with the recipes because you can't disconnect one from the other, the more we start to center faces along with our food and seeing how people interact, we start to connect and build community. I'm into that. Let's see some faces on the cover of BA. I'm into it. I'm into it too. I love it. Jamila, on This Is Taste, we asked guests about the discerning taste. So to close this interview, here's a little rapid fire, fast and furious taste check.

40:59Are you ready? I'm ready. The best fruit? Pears. The worst vegetable? Broccoli. Can't get it past my nose. Okay, so broccoli steamed raw, it's all that. I can smell it before it arrives at the table. It's just one of those, you know, some people are sensitive to cilantro. Yes, yes, yes. I'm sensitive to broccoli that way. I can smell it before it arrives. I empathize with you. I'm the same way with a couple things. But I love it. I love that you're honest about that. Mushrooms do the same thing to me. I'm learning to eat mushrooms. I'm learning to enjoy them. But before I could not get them past, I've had to have them a lot to get them past my nose.

41:41Chanterelle butter, lots of it. No, you grimace that. It's fair response. But so truffles, what about truffles? I don't get excited about truffles. I enjoy them when I have them. Yeah. But it's not, I would not purposely order them and say, oh my gosh, I've got to have shaved truffles, white shaved truffle, because it's, I don't get excited about them as much as I get excited about a pear or I get excited about, um, honey nut squash. So good. Uh, you're, uh, the best dessert? Lemon tarts. So agreed. Is there a way to articulate what you like about a lemon What needs to be in a lemon tart? It's the spark of the zest.

42:27It's that just the sweetness of the meringue. It's the energy, the brightness. And I think a lemon tart is always, it tells you to always be bright and energetic. And especially if you have like a very good crispy shortback crust and you have to break through it a little bit. You have to break through to get spark. Yeah, yeah, right on. I like that. And so I love a living tart. Yeah, put a little bit of elbow into it to break it. Yeah. Yeah, it's my favorite. It's my favorite thing. Your favorite New York City restaurant right now. That's a tough one. Yeah. Because there are so many. I think Atomic's is the best restaurant in New York City.

43:15Absolutely. James Beard agrees. James Beard agrees. New York's region. World's 50 best. Number eight on the list. I think what JP and Elliot are doing, not only with Modern Korean, but the way that they are collaborating across the entire globe to help reimagine what fine dining can be and its collaboration across the globe and how that inspires other people. That's such a transformational way of working, of being able to break out of the competition if they're, I mean, for lack of a better word, but to think that a chef of that level is always inviting other people into his kitchen to cook in his kitchen and learning from those chefs.

44:07And I think some of those exciting collaborations, whether that's Lito 84 from Italy or Quentin Hill from Mexico City, these are some of the best cooks on the planet. And even if you don't get to Mexico City, you can go to Atomix and have that experience and experience both dishes, the modern Korean and the modern Mexican. And that's a kind of collaboration of bringing the world closer together that I think something that food does. And that for me makes it the best restaurant. Your favorite American fast food chain? Popeyes, Louisiana fried chicken. It's truly, I think top two for me, McDonald's is one.

44:49Number two is Popeyes. So good. Fried chicken sandwich. There's my house in Washington. There's a Popeyes, maybe two blocks away. And they start frying chicken at 1045 a.m. And it's hitting your house. It's going in. I allow myself a Popeye's fried chicken sandwich periodically. Yeah. There was a time that I was going every day. I love Popeye's fried chicken. It's really good. And to bridge the Korean comment previously, in Seoul, there's a chain of Korean restaurants called Mom's Touch. And I tell you that that chicken sandwich might rival Popeye's. I have heard about that chicken sandwich. Some folks were saying you have to go to Seoul if you like fried chicken sandwiches.

45:36That's the place that you're going to want to go. Book that flight. Yeah. Working on it. You're working on it. It's going to be great. So I think Popeye's, I love it. Last question about Popeye's, the biscuits? It's not the biscuits for me. It's the fries. Oh, interesting. I love. And not the red beans? Not the red beans. Not the size too much. It's always the fries. I've never had the fries to Popeyes, ever. Oh my gosh, they're so seasoned. They're delicious. They have like crispy edges. They're fantastic. So hungry right now. I know, this is so meat. Oh my gosh. All right, a couple more. Your favorite cookbook of all time.

46:09The Balthazar cookbook from 2006, Nassar Riyadh. Those are some of the most perfect recipes. There's a trout filet that they used to cook at the restaurant. Trout filet with a warm, it's a warm spinach salad with lentils cooked in with carrots and like a mirepoix and a little bit of lardin. And I cook that in the summer. People think that it's amazing. The moules marionaires, the steamed mussels marionaires, it's a fantastic recipe. I juge it a little bit and add a, you know, a little bit of paprika, but it's a perfect recipe. the onion soup like you want to see some people lose their mind. It's amazing.

46:58Make that particular Shocking amount of Gruyere. It's a lot of Gruyere. Shocking amount of Gruyere, shocking amount of time. It's a perfect recipe. That's my favorite cookbook. It's really cool you say that. We wrote a tribute I think about four years ago on Taste and I'll link to in the show notes. That is a great book. It's a really good book. And it's a beautiful book. It's nice. I want to mention one other cookbook that I really love. It is the Marshall Fields community cookbook from about, I don't know, maybe 1987 or 1990, something like that. I bought it when I was interning in Minnesota and it's tattered, but there are some amazing recipes and they're just family recipes, but there's a killer carrot cake.

47:43I make a very, very, I don't think anybody can make carrot cake except for me. I love that. I love that. I make a very, very good carrot cake. And the recipe I use is based on one in that community cookbook. By the way, you just said a boot, by the way. You said a boot when you were referencing that. Because then you said Minnesota. I'm like, oh, you connected the two. Yeah, and sort of the Canadian. You know, when you're from Detroit, you grew up listening. You grew up watching Canadian television, and you start to pick up those vocal quirks. That is one of my quirks. I say that sometimes. It just takes me back home.

48:17Yeah. Yeah, I love it. All right. A few more. Your favorite city outside of America to visit for food? Oh, Paris. Hands down. No greater city in the world. Paris is the only one. Have you read Ruth Royschel's new novel? I haven't read it yet. It's on my list of things to read. But Paris is so special. I mean, I'm, it's the place that I think a lot of, I think I can speak for some black women when I say this, but for me, it's a place where I really understood what freedom is by going to Paris, that lineage of Josephine Baker and all the women who went to Paris. I feel that acutely when I'm there.

49:03It's not only just a great city and it's beautiful, but it is a place where you start to understand. I will speak for Jamila here. Paris is a place where I really started to understand my Americanness by going to Paris. But there's no more beautiful city, no better place to eat. That's a great sentiment. I really respect that and love that statement. A cuisine you would like to learn more about? I love learning about indigenous cuisines and those indigenous food ways and how they impact the future. When I think about the ways that if we understood Asian and South American and African food ways, the way we understand the Mediterranean diet, that will give us ways, a pathway to take a look at climate, reduce our meat consumption, understand how to use the earth.

50:05When we think about regenerative crops, elevation, all of these things, a lot of techniques that were helmed by women. So I'm very interested in indigenous food ways and the ways that we can bring so much of that back if we pay attention to the ways that people ate thousands of years ago. Last one, your favorite sandwich. Ice cream sandwich. First time that's been up. We've asked that question to maybe 65, 70 people who never said the ice cream. You are, love that. Ice cream sandwich. I make a mean ice cream sandwich. Sometimes I throw parties and I just make ice cream. How fun. My ice cream social is an ice cream sandwich.

50:48I love this. Jamila Robinson, thank you so much for joining This Is Taste. Thank you.

51:01Hey Matt, how are you doing? Hey Liza, I'm good. How are you doing? I'm good I feel like you were traveling again recently where were you oh my gosh I I've been I had a little bit of travel in this year I'm doing a cookbook so got some great spring plans but I was able to go down to Charleston uh this past weekend for 48 hours and I I really wanted fresh eyes on Charleston uh and the reason I I was there and thanks to Luke at Explore Charleston and Kat as well for for hooking me up some of the city's best chefs and and restaurants and being my sage advice for the trip. But they have a new food festival they're launching in September, making this city that's not one of our largest in population cities, but an important city.

51:47It's one of the few that has two major food festivals in it. It's pretty impressive, I think, to think about that. Yeah, I like that. I've never been to Charleston, but I've heard great things about the food down there too. Well, let's go on a little bit of a tour, but let's set some context. I think it was important to do this because Charleston, again, has a festival, the Charleston Wine and Food in March and the Food and Wine Classic in Charleston in September. So they're kind of spaced out. The March one is coming up. But I got to know Charleston initially in around 2015. I did an event down there for Koreatown with Dookie, with Brooks Wrights, and I got to see Brooks.

52:24But Sean Brock is important. He's an important figure in Charleston. um sean was the chef at mccrady's and leader husk and he was part of this new southern cuisine movement that really kind of took shape around 2007 2008 and kind of lasted for almost a decade and i'm not going to say that there was a pre and post sean brock moment but it's important to contextualize the south the way low country cuisine became a national thing through sean's work and then many of the chefs who worked with Sean and McCready's in Husk. So I really wanted to, I want to contextualize that through this tour because there are some alumni of Husk that I'm going to mention, but you have to really mention Sean.

53:06And Sean no longer operates really a restaurant in Charleston. He doesn't live there anymore. And he's not part of the scene as much. But what's refreshing is that it's been kind of a hard reboot from the Sean Brock New South movement. I think we as food media have moved on from covering the Southeast as much as on a national level, but it's kind of coming back to it because what I found was certainly some surprises. I found a place doing vegetarian sisig, a Filipino place that's nominated for a beard. I found barbecue from Texas, from South Carolina, from Puerto Rico. I got to go and have a meal at Fig, Mike Lada's legendary restaurant that really, like Sean's, became a real focal point of this new Southern movement.

53:48I went to bakery. So I want to go on this little journey with you and tell you about it. And I just want to get your take on like what I'm saying. Maybe we'll go a little back and forth. Yeah, I'd love to hear more about those spots. I think the first thing that comes to mind when we're talking about like the legacy of kind of contemporary Southern cuisine is the way that heritage crops and like animals have been kind of elevated as a part of that. And I guess I'd be interested to know if you're seeing any of those kind of ingredients or techniques that are still being used in this kind of different era of places.

54:17I'm glad you mentioned that. And of course, the Gullah Geechee culture and the lowland culture is prominent in all of these restaurants. And, you know, I talked to Rodney Scott, who does real South Carolina barbecue. But I think low country cuisine is certainly part of his ethic at his restaurants. And yeah, it is about like the Anson Mills moment to, you know, the heritage grits. And of course, the movement for Carolina Gold rice, like real Carolina gold, not the label Carolina gold that J.J. Johnson has written extensively about in his great work, is prominent in Charleston. So thank you for reminding me about the agriculture, a big part about this conversation.

54:58Yeah, I would think of like Benet Seed as well as being something that maybe you would have encountered. Yeah. So let's talk about restaurants. And I'm kind of going not in the order I visited them. And really, I'm not quantifying these restaurants. I'm not going to say best or worst or whatever. These are just all highlights. And I think the restaurant that captured the most buzz before the trip and really followed through is called Vern's. And Vern's has been recognized by the Beard Foundation. Bethany and Daniel Hines run it. They're vets of John and Vinny's, but they're natives of South Carolina, I believe, or the region.

55:33And I would say hands down it's one of the highlights of the trip. I had a rabbit campanelli, which was like fully black pepper all the way in the best way. I had escargot out of the shell with tarragon, the best grilled pork with lion's mane, sweet potatoes and truffles. I thought the way they're doing this contemporary Italian rooted Mediterranean cuisine, but they're doing like a sourdough flatbread that almost felt like naan. They had a mandarin granita that you break into and you have a creme fraiche. It's like a creamsicle, but, you know, and obviously there's been rifts on creamsicles for years, and this is truly the best orange dessert I've ever had.

56:12Wow, and when you say break-in, does that mean that it looks like an orange on the plate? It could. It was low light, and maybe they were going for that. That's a good question, but, you know, when I say break-in, I'm, like, going through the Granita, the icy, icy, icy, icy, icy, and then you hit, like, the well of creme fraiche, and, like, the texture and temperature of the creme fraiche made it a very, very desirable moment. And it's like one of those like all world desserts. Amazing. So yeah, Vern's, I could say more. I'm hoping to have Bethany and Dano on the podcast. Shouts to those guys.

56:45Yeah, it sounds great. I love a Cream School vibe. Okay. I mentioned barbecue and there's three barbecue stops that we made. Yeah, we went to a lot of spots. In 48 hours. Yeah, in 48 hours. I think the reason I really want my buddy Neil, So shout out to Neil. We went to Texas together. He's an oldest friend. And we just love when we visit for this. And I want to tell listeners about Charleston, about Texas, about going on the road to Milwaukee. I want to kind of use this podcast and our platform to talk about travel for food. So I'm trying to do the work. They call it doing the work, right? Yeah, eating at three barbecue places is a tough job, but somebody has to do it.

57:22Somebody's got to do it. So let me report back that Lewis Barbecue, as advertised, is like textbook Texas barbecue. in South Carolina. So yeah, a little bit of like a twist on the mind. It's not the pork-driven, vinegary, or even mustard-vinegary-driven barbecue that South Carolina is known for. It's more hill country style. Textbook, I loved what we had. We had a great corn pudding with hatched chilies. And John Lewis, really just a master of smoked meat. He also has more of a Tex-Mex concept as well, which I didn't visit, but I liked conceptually. I was able to go to a restaurant on day one, like serendipitously, which is something I don't really try to do.

58:02And I have to give shouts to Palmyra Barbecue. The chef, Hector Garate, is the proprietor. Hector ran pop-ups in the area, and it was well-regarded. And I mentioned his name to many chefs, and Hector seems to be like a real favorite. And like he's doing Puerto Rican-style barbecue, which never have had. I think it's really interesting with the few things we tried, beef cheeks with black pepper rub and of course some rice and beans that were absolutely what i would expect from a puerto rican restaurant really nice to have that with smoked meat a name to watch and the final barbecue stop and it was less of a of the food side more like a ketchup and i i just i have to stress how amazing of human being rodney scott is you've probably heard about rodney scott right only the best things i would say yeah and it's all true and And Rodney publishes with Clarkson Potter here.

58:53He's working on his second book, and we'll have him in the studio and have a detailed conversation. But I got to spend two hours with Rodney on a Saturday sitting outside eating this incredible pork, barbecue pulled pork, but also his chicken wings, like shouts to those. But just like catching up with Rodney about everything in the town, meeting some of his staff. The guy is just such a fun and smart and just like cool dude in the world of food. I just love Rodney Scott, just a nice human being. Yeah, I feel like it makes a lot of sense you get to spend time with him there and especially like looking at all of the different kinds of barbecue places in Charleston.

59:30It must be special to get to spend time with somebody that is kind of at the forefront of that. Absolutely, and his story is cool too. You know, he started way out in Hemingway, South Carolina in the middle of the state and he came to Charleston, opened this restaurant up, has a really great staff. And again, one of the smartest operators I've talked about, talked through food with, just the way he models his business. You know, whole hog barbecue is not easy. It's very physical work. And just the way that he thinks about his staff and equity and just like the way that his staff treated him in front of me and just on the side, as I've observed without me in the room, it was just obviously this guy is doing it right.

1:00:05Oh, I love to hear that. And I want to hear about the bakeries that you went to. Yeah, thanks for getting us there because Welton's Tiny Bake Shop, really tiny. First off, it's a tiny counter, but the case was packed. And I have to say, getting a savory Danish at like nine in the morning with Soprasada and hot honey is kind of what I want. And I loved this dish. It was so good. I love the savory Danish. I don't think I've ever had one with Soprasada. It sounds like an elevated pizza bite in the best way. 100%. It was exactly kind of channeling that Polly G's hot honey slice. They did a Queen Amman, which is textbook, kolache.

1:00:39And they also do pizzas in the alley on weekends. tiny little spot but Welton's is definitely a favorite amongst many of the chefs and food community and I'm so happy to stop by we also did the thing where you get up at like 7 a.m. and just leave leave the hotel and uh and and just get on your way and it's like the best way to do food travel as you so you started the day at the bakery yeah we did but we got there really early we didn't have to wait in line that's pretty cool I can't say that I'm normally the kind of person who can get out of bed that early but I'm glad that you were and that you can report back to us about that.

1:01:11Liza, it's called doing the work. I know someone's got to do it. We've got to run in in the morning too. Oh, and speaking of hotels, I want to shout out the Spectator Hotel. Great location. I really, for the amenities that they gave us and they provided breakfast. And I just think if I'm going to, there's a lot of choices in hotels, but Spectator was really, really great. What else do you want to talk about? What do you want to know about Charleston? Just ask me a question. Well, is the weather as nice as I would imagine this time of year? It is actually a great point weather is important factor with charleston my previous three times in charleston was in the summer and it's hot yeah it's very hot and it's humid and it's not as desirable though if you wear shorts and you hydrate it's totally great place to visit but yeah in january february march these early part of the year best time to visit perfect time really and i'm sure september is nice too but i think i honestly think march is probably the best time to visit it's not too cold I mean, it was like not cold at all.

1:02:08To them, it was cold, but whatever. I guess it's all relative, you know? Like for us East Coasters, I'm sure it's very nice. I know. All right, let's talk about Mike Lotta. You know, I've gotten to know Mike, you know, briefly at food festivals over the years. I think Mike Lotta is a real institution in Charleston. And Fig is his kind of, I would say his flagship, though the ordinary is well regarded as more, I would say more, he does more experimental cuisine there. it's more of a cocktail lounge and bar forward place but fig i'd never been to um the model's food is good which is you know feels like very retro it's like it was like food is good it's very hippie um but this is hardly a hippie joint it's a well-conceived bistro doing this kind of cuisine that is classic in in the highest form we had pan sauteed grouper with caraflex which was like bathed in brown butter and just felt like a very rich seafood dish but using local grouper.

1:03:02I love the ricotta gnocchi, which, you know, again, very classic cooking. Great to take your fam. In the summer, which I missed, is this tomato tart that's legendary. And, you know, I'm going to leave it there. Mike's going to come on the show. It's somebody I've always wanted to talk to and a real institution in Charleston, Mike Latta. I can't wait to listen to that episode. Let's talk about 167 Raw. I'm just like going through all these places and let's use this as a little tour. But 167, Dookie and I, Dookie Hong, my co-author on Koreatown, we did an event down there we went to their old location and it was uh we had like the it's kind of modeled after a new england uh seafood jack in charleston so kind of funneling this like idea of like the the lobster roll the shrimp roll using low country products very unique place and i think if you know you know with 167 restaurants and 167 raw to me what i like about what they do and this is my third time visiting is sauces really tremendous way they do ceviches and raw fish and seafood with the saucing using fruits using acid and it's just a really consistently cool place and of course if you want oysters this is where you go and what's the vibe is it like pretty casual is it close to the water it's in the central kind of downtown peninsula the center of the peninsula of charleston charleston is like a very small peninsula with outer you know neighborhoods that are not in the peninsula so that's kind of the dynamic there but i would call this like casual but very soigné, very like chef-y, but not the intimidating kind of seafood you might find at other places.

1:04:33I have a few more stops that I want to call out. One is Cultura, which is a James Beard semi-finalist. I loved seeing what they're doing. It's a Filipino restaurant that is kind of pushing the boundaries for Filipino cuisine for me. I actually went to Knox recently and I'd say in a similar vein. It's like this super savory, very creative ways of rethinking classic Filipino cuisine. I had a vegetarian sisig with these seasoned carrots kind of like playing off of like carrots can be pork jowl and pork face the way sisig is traditionally served. And I loved it. It was super well seasoned. We also had pork meatballs at like 10 in the morning.

1:05:15Not going to hate on that with garlic rice. So we only went for brunch and it just hit us with the aroma of Filipino restaurant walk in. It's got a cool counter space and outdoor seating. So it's a small sample size for us, but I feel Kultura is a name to remember in Charleston. I love to hear that. That sounds like definitely if I was going to have meatballs for breakfast where I would go. Yeah, I survived. I thought like, and you know, I went to some places I'm not mentioning because I didn't love them. So there's like, there's actually some unnamed places on here that will just leave leave to the imagination um and i i you know when you see uh you know breakfast filipino cuisine you never know what you're gonna get it could be a range of quality it's like any cuisine it's like if you're seeing pancakes you can go to a crappy ass pancake house that is flappy bullshit pancakes where you have like the best pancake experience you know like any restaurant um it's it's hard to know what you're gonna get until you get there and this promise of Filipino brunch was really, really resonated with us when we heard about it.

1:06:17And man, did they absolutely crush it with it. So good. Did you eat anywhere else in the city? I feel like you ate everywhere. Yeah, we went to the places that were unnamed. Unnamed. No, actually, and I'm joking, if I didn't meet you and I didn't mention your place, maybe we'll chit chat later. I might be forgetting a place. But there is actually one I want to mention. I'm going to close here. And I mentioned Brooks Reitz and Aaron Reitz in the beginning, but they are two of the coolest individuals. I've known them for years. We did an event with them at Leon's Oyster Shack and I'm gonna have Brooks on the show at some point and talk about his great sub stack and some of the big ideas he has in food.

1:06:53I just think he's got great taste. I got to meet Aaron finally. Little Jack's Tavern. It's just like they're doing a classic, I would call it like a little bit of a, I would say Mineta Tavern in the South. Dark interior boxing motif but definitely definitely definitely the best burger i've had in the south it's it's really really really consistent i've had it three times now and it's just a tremendous restaurant and shouts to those guys for keeping this restaurant finely tuned what kind of burger style is it is it a smash burger it's um yes it's like a definitely a one temperature burger um i think the bun size is what i like the most and i'm gonna don't quote me but i'm gonna say it's in the brioche realm.

1:07:34I think that's what it was. Is it ample or it's smaller? It's like the perfect size with like an overflowing plate of like perfectly fried fries. It's like the kind of pub burger you want that isn't going to, it's like a PJ Clark's. Classic. I think PJ is probably a little bit of a channel there. It's like an old New York pub burger. But Brooks is going to tell me on this episode about some exciting plans he's got we were building about his future restaurant plans to be determined later. Okay, that's like the exhale moment. Like that was Charleston. Any final questions? Any thoughts? Do you want to go to Charleston?

1:08:12I would love to go to Charleston. I want to know if you could have like one thing that you had in Charleston for lunch today. What would it be? I would say at Vern's it was definitely the pork loin that had lion's mane. It's not really lunchy stuff, but man, I just can't stop thinking about that special. It was so good. No, it sounds really good. I'll think about that when I go to the Sweetgreen across the street for lunch today. Oh, yeah. I'm hitting Sweetgreen, too. Yeah. Oh, great. I'll catch you there. I'll catch you at Sweetgreen. Definitely not the cuisine I just had, but I definitely feel like probably Sweetgreen will be in Charleston at some point.

1:08:44Oh, I'm sure. Well, you know, we're back to Midtown, but thanks for letting me pretend we were somewhere else for a little bit. I appreciate you hearing me out. Thanks, Eliza.

1:08:56This is Taste is hosted by Eliza Abarbanel and me, Matt Rodbar. The show is produced by Shalia Harris and Pat Stango and edited by Clayton Gumbert. Theme music by Steve Rydell. Visit Taste online at tastecooking.com and make sure to subscribe to our newsletter for updates on all cool things that are happening.