357: Rachelle Hampton & Suzy Karadsheh

26:23All to say, I think we are approaching the need of a social media refresh button, but this is the first era we've lived through where everything has been consolidated onto privately owned platforms. And so I don't think those platforms are going to want to die anytime soon. And I also don't really know what an internet that is not on those platforms actually looks like right now. Like growing up, we had GeoCities. We had Neopets. We had Tumblr. We had a Google search function that actually worked. Whoa, crazy. No. We had all of these things that weren't necessarily tied up in one company's bottom line.

27:06And now if you think about what the internet looks like, we're all kind of just going to the same platforms that are owned by tech billionaires. And so I don't really know what the next version of the internet looks like. People thought it was crypto. I never understood crypto and I'm glad I never tried to. But all to say, I think we are on the verge of an internet refresh button and I have no idea what's going to happen afterwards. Yeah, I agree with you in terms of the reasons why people would want a new refresh button. I think for me, I don't really know if it's possible because I think that like the movement of monetizing everything online comes from all of these creators that, you know, don't have a media job or whatever kind of job that would be like paying them to do that kind of work anyways.

27:50And we live in a capitalistic society. So there's going to be that happening everywhere. And in terms of like data privacy and all these kind of bummer conversations to be talking about on the podcast, I feel like I don't know how you could escape all of those problems. But I do think people are more aware of the problems now than they used to be. And that totally comes through in this fatigue that you're talking about. And I think like when I go to the comments on any platform, there's going to be people that feel like things have changed in a way that they're not comfortable with or that they don't want to see.

28:18Yeah, no, you're totally right. I mean, people have been complaining about the death of the internet basically since it started. So I am now one of those people, which means I've aged out of a certain bracket. But I think you're definitely right. I don't really know if anything else can come after what we have right now, but I didn't know TikTok was going to be as big as it was going to be. I didn't imagine when I was on the internet when I was 12 that this is what the internet would look like right now. And I think a lot of the creators that you're talking about are realizing that they're beholden to platforms whose incentives are very murky and who have the power to either create or end their career for reasons that will never be clear to them.

29:09People talk about shadow banning. People talk about the Instagram algorithm, algorithms in general that no one understands. I think the kind of wild west of making a ton of money on the internet doing what seems like very little is over. And I think a lot of creators are realizing that they are, again, beholding the platforms in a way that just isn't sustainable. Yeah, definitely. I think something I heard you talking about on this episode that I was thinking about is the way that there isn't context on TikTok and the way that there is on other platforms, like namely that the algorithm is bringing like all kinds of random things to you.

29:49And I think it's interesting in terms of food, for example, because, you know, people will be asking like for a recipe for something or for someone to cook this kind of thing that they've actually like already done. But they have there really isn't even a good way to search, at least when I was on TikTok. I don't know if they've improved this. No. Of course not. Search function on TikTok is actually terrible. But also just like being able to save on your profile. Like this is where all of my recipes are and you can scroll through it in that kind of way. It's interesting that like there's kinds of content like food content that can really thrive on a platform even when it isn't actually like built to be.

30:22It's very hard to cook a recipe off of TikTok. It is. It is, especially given the fact that the captions where a lot of people put the recipes are kind of giant gray translucent text. It's just not a platform that's really built to be instructional. YouTube, you can kind of just have running next to you in the kitchen. But at TikTok, it's going to stop playing. and then the next video is going to start playing or it's going to restart. Even rewinding on TikTok is a pain in the ass. So we've talked about what we don't like about TikTok. I'm curious for some positivity, if there are any. I know we love positivity.

30:59Recently, like, you know, when you maybe were online more, like when have you experienced a video or a creator that made you actually excited about the possibilities of sharing kind of food-related stuff online? Or maybe not even food, but just kind of lifestyle content. I can tell you mine also. Please do. Do you follow Chucky Cruz and Haley Catalano on like TikTok or Instagram? Yes. I'm interviewing them on the podcast in the future, which I'm very excited about. That's so exciting. This is probably the first time that I've reached out to like a food content creator on TikTok to have them on the show, which clearly I should be doing that more often.

31:35But their videos are just so like simple and like, well, the food is actually sometimes kind of elaborate, but the way that they're telling you about it or doing it, like it It feels very like it's not uppercase, all caps moment. It's kind of like soothing. And I think it's clear that they really love to cook. Yes, yes. I love Haley Catalano. Her videos are, yeah, they're very simple in a way or approachable in a way that doesn't feel manufactured. And also the way that she speaks just over her videos is very soothing. I don't know. I find something about her voiceovers just so like, of course I can do this.

32:14Yeah. Well, also, I think like she's clearly her and Chucky are both restaurant people. And you can tell, by the way, even that they're sprinkling salt or like chopping something as someone that spent time around chefs, like I can just tell they have that backbone of knowledge. And I think that's what makes me feel safe is that like I know that this recipe is going to work. And I think that to me, one of the downfalls of maybe people moving away from traditional and food media is that like when something is being cross-tested in a test kitchen, the odds of it working for you are going to be very high and you have no idea if all of these creators are not even cross-testing, but just like checking the measurements or anything like that.

32:46Yeah. Yeah. That's really fair. That's so interesting that you note those little visual cues that make you aware that these people are credible because as someone who doesn't have restaurant background, I didn't pick up on those cues, but there is something about their content that feels very like I can trust what they're saying. And I'm wondering if it's just kind of like subconsciously just like, oh, that looks professional. Yeah. Or they feel comfortable in the kitchen. And even if you're not noticing like the fact that they're using like a certain prep bowl or something like that or like a coon spoon, whatever industry things like the energy is what's coming through.

33:22That makes me think of this reminds me this. I'm going to actually answer your question now of the last food creator who I think really kind of made me want to cook more. I think her handle is Kristen Faith Eats, and she does a lot of pasta recipes, which I really appreciate. And her cooking reminds me a lot of what you're talking about with Haley and Chuck, where it feels like I can go to this recipe and know that I'm not going to feel at the end of it, I'm missing a giant step. Because I feel like that happens with recipes sometimes where you're trying them and you get to the end and you're like, I feel like maybe this recipe wasn't that well thought out.

34:06Maybe this should have actually been finished in the oven rather than on the stove. Maybe this should have been added in at a different time. And I've never really felt that way with Kristen's food. And it's usually pretty easy to make and it's always delicious. I'll have to check it out. I think what you're saying reminds me of our shared passion and background in journalism, which is that like I would say recipes are service journalism by and large. If you're taking the time to share it with somebody, like someone is going to spend time and money and resources and like maybe some emotional stress if they're doing something that they're not comfortable with.

34:41And like you want them to feel secure with the end product because there is like a lot more of a risk there or like more of a buy-in that people are expecting. And it's when you're pretty comfortable in the kitchen, I think you can save a lot of recipes just from kind of figuring out what's going wrong. But those are recipes that I don't really feel comfortable sharing with other people because I'm like, I actually ended up kind of making my own recipe in the middle of this because the one that was given to me didn't really work the way it was supposed to. Yeah. Okay. Another thing I want to talk about is Stanley Cups.

35:16Have you talked about this on your podcast yet? I have not, but I think they have in my absence, which makes sense. Yeah. I did see that, but I was like, I don't know if it came up before, but to me, like, it's so funny sometimes social media lets you see things that, like, aren't happening around you because I don't really think I see Stanley Cups in New York that much. Same. And I think it's because they're really great for car culture. The ones that everyone talks about, which is the quencher, I think is what it's called. You know the name. I know. And this is even me being offline, but it's like the big, maybe 40 ounce, but it has a handle, which doesn't make sense if you're living in New York, really, because that's going to be too big to put in a bag that you're carrying around.

35:59And most of them have lids that don't screw on, really. They kind of just sit on top, which makes me scared they're going to leak everywhere. So it's really kind of car culture. They sit really well in cup holders. They're really easy to use when you're driving, is the vibe that I've gotten from them. But it's wild how popular they've gotten. I feel like water TikTok as a genre has been going for a long time and they started the Stanley craze. And then it just spread all the way through these various sectors of society until where it is now, which is teen and tween girls are making fun of each other for not having real Stanley Cubs.

36:40Yeah, which is sad because I feel like for me that was like Converse sneakers or something. I got the Payless version. Yeah. But it's interesting. I think the car culture part makes a lot of sense. I think it also, like when you say water TikTok, like do you mean like water sommelier? You would think. But no, most of them aren't actually drinking water. It's these giant cups, usually Stanley cups, and they're mixing together all these different flavor packets or syrups into their water. which means it's not water to my imagination. I don't want to judge anyone for how they hydrate. That's not my job but it just gives me the vibe of someone who doesn't want water who doesn't actually enjoy the taste of water and is just adding all these things to it to make it taste better which as someone who puts a lot of sugar in their coffee I get it but water is a thing you need to survive.

37:35Yeah do you ever flavor your water? No I actually really don't even like lemon in water. I'm actually anti-sparkling water. Like I just flat water for me is really all I need. You never had a seltzer moment? No. I just, for me, I have like a really big sweet tooth and I associate carbonation with a pop or soda. And so if it's carbonated, I'm like, I want it to be a Coke. I don't want a kind of mineral tasting water. Yeah. Okay. So what's like a food trend that's happened recently that you have bought into? Well, on the heels of Stanley Cup is the O 'Walla water bottle. And I have one in my bag right now.

38:12I kind of want to like go look at it. What do you like about this bottle? It's so nice. I would pull it out right now if it wouldn't cause a bunch of sound. So I needed a new reusable water bottle to like take to the gym and also everywhere because my old one was leaking everywhere. So it's just a typical metal reusable water bottle, but the lid has both like a straw and a way to drink it like when, like just to tip it back. A campster bottle. Exactly. Which I really enjoy because you don't have to choose between getting like a Nalgene and a Camelback water bottle. You have both. And the lid has two different locks on it to make sure that it doesn't spill.

38:53And it's just very sleek looking. It's kind of like the opposite of a Stanley Cup then. It is. Yes. Wow. I like that I feel like what I've seen in water bottle culture recently that's been cool is like the small water bottles that are very friendly to New York and things when you're carrying it around. And also, if you know that you're going to be at a place where you can refill your water, then it's like half, like a mini, half the size of a normal water bottle. Also, they make like flat ones that are really easy to put in your tote bag. Oh my God. And I think like what is maybe if I'm going to have a positive spin on this whole consumerist nightmare, which I don't know why I'm being Pollyanna, but it's very nice that there's different kinds of water bottles for like different kinds of people and their hydration needs.

39:31It is. It is. I appreciate that people are trying not to use plastic bottles, though when people reach the level of having 40 different reusable water bottles, it really starts to make me wonder what the point of any of this is. Yeah, I didn't really understand that was happening for a while. And then I did see some of the videos and then I just kind of was like had to sit down for a while and reprocess. And then I also saw the beef that's happening now between Hydro Flask and Stanley Cups on Twitter, which I guess some brands still are on X. Wow. Ruining their reputation on X by beefing with each other?

40:04Yeah, because there was lead that was found. Yes, I saw that in Stanley Cup. Yeah, and then Hydro Flask posted this very self-important. And I think it was on Instagram first, maybe. They were like, we've been operating for 10 years and there's never been lead in any of our bottles. They didn't have to add anyone, but - We all knew. Yeah, the beefing was happening between the brands, which I would imagine must be very interesting to be in a business that inherently you're trying to sell to people once, right? That like they have their reusable water bottle. And then now there's like, oh, actually we could just be targeting people that want to collect them in different colors.

40:36Yeah. Yeah. Also, where are we at a society when bragging about not having lead in your water bottles is advertisement? That feels like that should be a given. It does feel like it should be a given, but who could really say? Okay. So I'm curious for your vibe check on like dining out in restaurants these days. Is that something that you find yourself doing? Like what are you seeing that you're into? Yeah, I do it pretty regularly. I think that's one of the things that I really value is eating a meal in person. I really just during my sabbatical, I've taken to eating at restaurant bars and just chilling there for an hour or so with a book, which I really like.

41:17I also have a group of friends. Our group chat is called Supper Club. And we basically just go to, they pick really well-known restaurants that I'm not aware of until I show up. And then we ball out. We recently went to Tatiana, I think like a week or so ago. Oh, yeah. I still haven't been, but Kwame's Food is so great. And it seems like it's a really sceny place to go to. It was so sceny. I also didn't realize it was just straight up in Lincoln Center. It's just right there, which is not a place where I would think a restaurant would be, which I guess is the point. But it was very sceny. They were playing a playlist that I like to describe as basically Black music that everyone likes.

42:00So Frank Ocean, some old Biggie, just a very crowd pleasing, but not too much Drake. They might have had something from Take Care, but nothing from Post started from the bottom. Like that's the vibe of the restaurant. And the food was phenomenal. I'm so glad you're talking about the playlist because I think to me the playlist in a restaurant is the most interesting thing to fixate on, especially if they play music in the bathroom that's different than when they're playing in the restaurant. I always want to know why. I know. Well, I used to love this restaurant that's like now closed, but they would always play.

42:39Oh, my God. I'm blanking on the name. It's like it's a very iconic disco track, but it'd be full volume, only in the bathroom, never once in the outside of the restaurant. And I was like, disco bathroom. Like that's my like, that's my new concept is that no matter where I am, it's kind of disco bathroom. That's actually iconic. And also, I feel like would make me feel better about using the bathroom because it's so loud. You know, you don't have to worry about anyone hearing what you're doing in your little stall because they're just playing Donna Summers. Yeah, actually, that maybe was the plan all along.

43:08I didn't even think about it that way. As a shy pooper, I appreciate this restaurant. Disco bathroom. Disco bathroom. You can advertise it on the website. Come to us. We have the loudest bathroom in New York City. You will be safe. Yes. Okay, well, before we go, I want to play a little like taste check game with you. So I'll give you some categories and you tell me like the first answer that comes into your head. Are you ready? Okay. Favorite cookbook. Oh, I don't really have any cookbooks. My roommate has one that's an Ina Garten 30-minute meals that I look at and I love because I love Ina Garten.

43:43Yeah. Shout out to Ina. Yeah. Okay. Your favorite like food-focused movie or TV show. Oh my gosh. Does this complicated count by Nancy Meyers? She loves to have. Yeah. I believe you tell me about this food scene in it. Okay, so she runs a bakery in Santa Barbara and there's this food scene with Meryl Streep and Steve Martin where they make chocolate croissants after a party, like where they've gotten high. And the joke is that they're like six-year-olds getting high and they get the munchies and they're like, let's go to your bakery and make chocolate croissants together at midnight. It's very cute.

44:14Okay, I love that you're saying this, but you're not actually saying like that. I don't know if you know this, but this is like resoundingly hated by every baker that I know because it is impossible to make chocolate croissants in the amount of time that they do it. in the movie. It's like a multi-day process. So it's like beloved in this kind of like, we love Nancy Meyers because it's not possible, but it seems like it's possible. That's so funny. I'm like, wow, I want to go to a bakery at midnight and make chocolate croissant. Let me just produce a knife and pop your balloon right now. No, but it makes it better because it fits into the whole Nancy Meyers shtick, right?

44:46Which is that it's like not really real, but we're going to last slide. No, truly, it's all fake. That kitchen, too beautiful to actually exist. The croissant's not going to happen overnight. And you know what? That's beautiful. We like it for them, yeah. We do. Okay, your desert island condiment. I would probably say Frank's Red Hot. Something that you will never make from scratch. Honestly, any kind of pastry. I am never making puff pastry. I am never making phyllo dough. I will watch Great British Bake Off, and that is as close as I'm getting to doing any real involved kind of baking that involves chilling and laminating dough.

45:24I'm never laminating a dough. I mean, I've given up on that personally, so I share that with you. Your favorite New York City grocery store? Ooh. I really love Mr. Kale. The chain of stores that is Mr. Kale. The Mr. Fruits. Yes, Mr. Fruits. There's one that I go to on Franklin a lot that I don't know if it's Mr. Orange or Mr. Lemon, but it's one of them. Yeah, I live in between Mr. Mango and Mr. Coco. And I used to be my Mr. Carrot. I do love this chain. I love them. They also always have beautiful flowers. They do have beautiful flowers. They make their own smoothies. Yes. And they have very affordable fruit and produce.

46:07That goes bad pretty fast, but it's close by. So you just go when you need it. Exactly. It's like if I need a ripe avocado that night, I'm going to Mr. Kale. Right. And if you need like 40 million other things, you also go there. Exactly. I will spend a lot of money on Mr. Kale. Okay. Your favorite New York City restaurant? Honestly, I've been to Laser Wolf twice now and I love her. She's great. Phenomenal. Worth the hype. Your favorite New York City bar? I really love and go to Crown Inn a lot on Franklin. I think it's kind of the perfect bar. I think it's a little divey. I think it's relatively cheap and you can stay there from 2 p.m.

46:46to 2 a.m. And that's my favorite thing to do. Honestly, that's like a great bar rundown. Okay, your go-to bodega snack. I think if I want something hot, bacon, egg, and cheese, classic. I think if I'm just popping in for something, probably like, this is very basic, basic, but one of those coffee drinks that has oat milk in it, you know? Like the prepackaged ones? Yeah. Yeah, that's good. Okay, a restaurant that's not in your neighborhood that you wish could magically be your neighborhood restaurant. Oh my God, Ceremonia. Okay. Ceremonia Bake Shop. I know, I said that so fast. Instant answer. One of the best breakfast burritos I've had in New York.

47:27And I spent my teen years in Texas and my childhood in Chicago, which also has a lot of Mexican food. New York does not really do Mexican food that well, which means it's actually pretty hard to find a decent breakfast burrito, which is usually Tex-Mex. Ceremonia in Williamsburg has like the perfect breakfast burrito. I've heard good things. I haven't tried it yet. Have you been to Chaqueria Ramirez? This is not for breakfast burrito, but this is like my favorite restaurant in New York, period, probably. It's a very like Mexico City style taqueria. We should go. Yeah. It's very good. I would love to.

48:01Okay. My last question for you is a fictional food scene that you wish you could eat in real life. Ooh. Have you seen Howl's Moving Castle? Yeah. I think the scene where they're making breakfast with the eggs and the ham, there's just something about the way Miyazaki draws food that is so, it's such a normal meal, but it looks like the best thing you'll ever eat. Yeah. I totally agree with that. I think that's a great example. And this has been so much fun, Rachel. Thanks so much for coming on. I've had so much fun. Thanks for having me.

48:37Susie Karache, welcome back to This is Taste. How are you? Oh my gosh, I am so great now that I can see you face to face. I last saw you. You were in New York in the fall, but we were in Puglia. I know. We did at Taste Travels. Let's just do a quick recap about Puglia. And we're going to be going to Greece. We have a sold out tour. We're going to go on probably another tour in 2025. But what did you like about Puglia? What was your big highlight? Oh, my goodness. You know, it was our first experience taking readers of the Mediterranean dish and tastes to the Mediterranean. And I just loved, I think the highlight for me was the community.

49:19we were able to experience together, but also like Puglia is so chill and it's just the right place to go if you want to experience the Mediterranean up close and personal. So I loved that we were able to share that as a community together. I mean, what did you like? What was your highlight? That's a great call. And I just so enjoyed traveling with you and about 25 of our readers. And we'll be going to Greece and we'll be going all over the place. Taste Travels is this broad program we do here, and listeners of the podcast will know we have a bunch planned. But this was the first one, and we didn't really know what to expect, but I thought the community, we brought together fans of cookbooks and cooking from all over the country, and we got a really curated look at Puglia.

50:08And that is, I love the word chill. You're right. Because some of Italy is not chill. Like Rome is cool. Milan, even better. But, man, not chill. Lots of track. Yeah. Yeah. And I thought that it was a really nice time to be with the readers. A lot slower, probably. Yeah. And it really just gave us a different perspective, I thought, on, you know, just the way that people value, you know, they approach food differently. They approach their time with each other differently. And I think there was just a lot of aha, meaningful moments for the group. So I can't wait to do it again in Greece. Yeah. And we sold out the trip.

50:51So I don't want to talk too much about it because, you know, that's a little unfair. I know. We have a waiting list, too. And I will link to it in the show notes. It will be sold out. But there is a waiting list. And as the trip is structured, oftentimes folks will, you know, jump off for various reasons. And like we're going to be planning a couple more trips for next year. So stay on that waiting list. It's really fun. But Greece, yeah, we'll be in Crete. And it will be in Athens. And we'll be seeing city. And what are you looking forward to? I think Greece is going to be very interesting and a little different because, like you said, so we're going to go to Athens and see the big city and that bustle of that big city, which has a lot of history as well.

51:31And then we're going to go to Crete and do the whole chill Mediterranean island experience. And I think it'll be interesting to just compare the two and see what we take in. And I've been to Greece before and I love the people. And I think the vibe there, again, is something to look forward to. Very sunny, very, again, chill in a different way. We're kind of being dicks right now, I must say. We're talking about this trip that's sold out. Yeah. We're not being dicks. Yeah, we're not fair. We're not fair. But like. Nah, it's. Yeah. But you can sign up. Be like, listen, like sign up. We can talk offline about it.

52:09Okay. I want to get you talking about New York. We're in town. Yeah. We've been talking about some projects. we're working on here at Penguin Random House, hint, hint. But I want to say, I want to get a sense of New York for you. What have you been enjoying food-wise in New York, or what are you looking forward to food-wise? Yeah, I love this city. So I mean, so I grew up in Egypt and Egypt is at least the bigger cities. I'm from Port Said, but also Cairo, Alexandria are kind of places where I hung out a lot and I feel like the vibe of New York feels so much like home to me. Like I'm and I'm walking the streets and I'm smelling the falafel and I'm like, OK, I'm home.

52:51And so I really love that. I just love the vibe in this city. And you can find almost any food in the world in New York. And that's a big plus for a foodie like me. So I just I always love to I travel like with my mouth first. like sala is always my husband he's always like okay i know that we're gonna plan our trip around like where to eat and and whatnot but the best thing about new york is you don't have to plan so hard because you can just walk any corner and find something to eat so um i love greek food a lot so i'm on the hunt oh yeah uh for that so we'll see yeah greek food here is is is definitely uh astoria queens greek seafood molivos midtown and i'm forgetting about a few other spots um in brooklyn but yeah it truly is amazing all right what about atlanta because i i think atlanta is one of our country's greatest food cities yes such an amazing place i love going there you live there for many years what's food like in atlanta these days restaurant wise the food scene is really like developing pretty fast in Atlanta.

54:04I just, and I should know more, but like I'm a hermit and I cook at home a lot. Well, you work a lot. And I work many hours. So like people are always asking for recommendations and I wish I had more for them, but I just tried a new Persian place in our area called Delbar and I just love Persian food. So that's a good place to try. What else? obviously the barbecue scene. Oh, yeah. If you're in the South, you have got to try something. Yeah. Some barbecue there. Oh, definitely. Are you like doing any, what's your favorite like barbecue dish? You know, I don't mind ribs. Yeah. I'll have to say.

54:44My guy. That's one I like too. Once in a while, we'll do that. Yeah. It's not something I do very often, but when I do, I'm like, oh, this is the South. It's pretty South. Man, you know? I love it. Well, I want to go back and talk a little bit about, of course, the Mediterranean dish. And it is a lifestyle brand. There's incredible videos that are being posted weekly. You've got your cookbook, The Mediterranean Dish, which we've spoken about in a previous episode. I'm going to link to it in the show notes. It's all based around the Mediterranean diet. And I wanted to have you in to talk about this diet because this diet isn't really a diet.

55:22It's a diet. It's a weird word. It's like a style of thinking about cooking. Right. Specifically for you. What do you think about with Mediterranean cooking? Yeah, I yeah, you're right. I don't love to describe it as the Mediterranean diet, but for all purposes, it is what people know of it. And I think the Mediterranean way of eating is just, again, there's a certain vibe to it, a certain simplicity, flexibility, playing with flavors. And that's the most exciting part about it. But really eating the Mediterranean way, it's just the pattern of food, the way that people of that part of the Mediterranean eat.

56:06So that's how I like to describe it. And am I answering your question? You sure are because you're doing what I thought you would do, which is like not answer this dumb question about diet because it's not about diet. It's about a lifestyle. And I think one better way for me to frame it is like the ingredients that go into this style of dieting. And then let us know. And then I got a little story I want to talk about, about Pulio. A little story. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, so eating the Mediterranean way, I feel is so exciting, which is why this diet continues to be like every year the U.S. News and World Report comes out, right?

56:47And everybody's like, what's the number one diet? And it's the Mediterranean diet for the seventh year in a row. And I always like it gives me it's exciting and it makes me like chuckle a little bit because this diet has been around for like centuries. So it's always been on. It's not a fad. But the reason I think it's so successful and continues to be popular is because it just offers a ton of variety. In the ingredients, you lean heavy into the plants. And that includes also not just fruit and veggies, but legumes and grains, lots of fiber, good protein from fish and some poultry. And then, of course, the ever so present extra virgin olive oil.

57:33so they're they're it's not as prohibitive which is why it continues to be you know it's accessible and it's the variety of it and the flavors from all over the mediterranean it's i think exciting absolutely it's a fun way to eat well said and and the little story i'm going to say is we were on this trip and we had a traveler and i sat next to her during our trip and she kind of confided to me that she didn't really um wasn't into food it wasn't like a food person like many of the People on our show are like food people. But she like cooked your recipes and watched your YouTube and videos. Because what it did was it made her obviously cook more, made her feel better.

58:15And it was like just like a very like easy for her in her mind to always have the Mediterranean dish there. Because she knew it was healthy. And that's a very loaded word. Yeah. I don't love to use on the show. I know. But it made her feel healthier. Yeah. And I thought that was like really cool because like she wasn't obsessed with food, but she was obsessed with the Mediterranean cooking. Yeah. It's unfussy. I like to think it's just a joyful way to cook and live. And that's the past 10 years of my life have been really great just sharing everything I know about this way of living with everybody.

58:54So it's exciting. So we think about traditionally like vegetables, you know, having, you know, having an olive oil and acidic component. We think about obviously big salads. I would like to get, Susie, your sense of how are you in your cookbook flipping the script on some of these common tropes about the Mediterranean way of cooking? What are some surprises? Yeah. I think one of the things that I have run into is when you talk about Mediterranean and Mediterranean food, Mediterranean diet, people immediately think south of Europe, maybe Italy, maybe Greece. But it doesn't quickly come to mind places like Morocco, Tunisia, Egypt, even where I'm from, or, you know, the Levant.

59:41And so the Mediterranean is really big, like 20 some countries touch the Mediterranean. I think I hope that I have been showing people in some small way through the website and the book that there is just a lot more flavors to explore from those parts of the Mediterranean. That's one thing that I'm really passionate about. and I think also just the idea of like we as immigrants have borrowed from each other and and have brought with us like people from different parts of the Mediterranean have shared similar vibes for a long time maybe maybe there are some distinct cuisines and whatnot but we also share something in common I like to think like the Mediterranean pulls us together toward You know, vibrance and just freshness and all that, but also a sense of just hospitality.

1:00:40Yeah, the culturally, the link of hospitality in the region is true. And, you know, you can say every culture is hospitable at any time, but the untrue, I think that you get a sense of a lot of family people don't, you know, I would say in the Mediterranean. and please correct me, this is an assumption, but, you know, a lot of families live maybe closer to each other geographically. And that means that there's a real tradition of having a Friday meal or a Sunday meal, depending on religious beliefs. And in the Mediterranean, that's huge. And, you know, other parts of the world may be less. Yeah, I think so.

1:01:19And it's part of why I know people are now talking about longevity quite a bit, right? And there is a link between, you know, obviously, yes, what you eat matters, but also community is a part of that. And so they talk about like how in parts of Greece and Italy, like I think Icaria, Greece and Sardinia, Italy are two blue zones, they call them, right? And where people live quite a long life and not just a long life, but a long and good life and a healthy life and vibrant life. And every time you talk about that with people from that part of the world, they tell you community is a big deal. Sitting around the table with people you love is a big deal in many parts of the Mediterranean, at least from my experience.

1:02:12And I think when we cook and we share the food we love with loved ones, there is more nourishment about it than just like the food itself. Yeah. And so community is a big part of the Mediterranean style of cooking, living and everything else, which is another reason why I just love. This work you do. You love your job. I love my job. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Now, traveling in the region, you grew up in Egypt and you've traveled extensively, But there's got to be some places in the Mediterranean region that you want to visit. What's on the hit list for you, Susie, right now? Where do you want to go?

1:02:53You know, I have not been to Morocco, Tunisia, that part of the Mediterranean. And I think that would just be so exciting. Oh, my gosh. I know, like, growing up in Egypt, I'm familiar. Like, we, like I said, borrow from each other. But I would love to go and experience that. I've been to Turkey. I've been to Greece, Italy, parts of France. but I haven't been to Tunisia and Morocco. Takes Travels 25. Yeah. Tunisia. That's a lot of teas right there. Yes. Taste Tunisia. Let's do it. I think it's going to happen. That sounds nice. Let's ATA folks listening. Let's get that one on the books. I mean, for real, I feel like it's multitudes.

1:03:38There's no monoculture in the Mediterranean. Yeah. But it's cool to think about the way the food is presented in a similar way. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, for sure. So let me ask you about future projects and future books. I mean, do you want to write another book? Is this, I know the book came out in 22 and we certainly, you've still been touring and it's very popular still. So it's like, you don't necessarily want to rush. But what are you thinking about book two right now? What's in your brain space? Well, I won't say that I'm not writing a second book. How about that? Well, you're always writing. I mean, you write three to four newsletters a week, and I actually open them all.

1:04:23Oh, thank you. No, I do. And I think they're all unique. They're very recipe-centric. I'm going to link to that in the show notes so that subscribe. Because, again, it's just a great way to get inspired to cook. But, yeah, book, you're always writing, but you're thinking maybe? Yeah, I think it's not out of the question. There will be more from the Mediterranean. I love it. Yeah. We'll check this space in the summer. We'll maybe have some news on that one. Yeah. What about Egypt? Have you thought about going back? I don't know when you've been back. Yeah. And what was that trip going to be like when you head back to Egypt?

1:05:00You know, I have thought about going back. I haven't been since my father passed away. I think part of it is just like I haven't been able to imagine the space without him. He was just such a big personality. I wrote a bit about him in book one, but I feel like I need to go back. And I think the next time I go, I'm probably going to be more of a tourist. Yeah. Just like trying to go places that I hadn't been. Because living there, you don't go to every place. You know, you go to the big things. Like I've been to the pyramids so many times. But there are places now that I want to go back and see parts of Egypt that aren't super popular that should be visited.

1:05:51And it's a beautiful country and beautiful people. Obviously, I feel that way. But there's so much more to see, I know, that I haven't seen in Egypt. That show Rami. Do you ever watch Rami? Yes. The Egypt section that like I think it was like a pocket of season two. Yeah. Was striking. Yeah. Just the culture of Egypt, of Cairo. Yeah. Really from a young millennial's point of view, an American. And I was like, man, I want to I want to know more about this world. Yeah. Yeah. It's Egypt is just there are layers and layers of things to see in Egypt. And like the people, there's just people from all over.

1:06:33Yeah. It's a world. It's a melting pot. Yes, it is. But living there, I don't know about you, but I feel like, and maybe this is also the listener's experience. I feel like we grow up somewhere and we don't really investigate it that much. And then we go away somewhere else and live for a while. And now we're like, oh, yeah. And we start thinking about our upbringing. and are, you know, so in writing books, as you know, we're forced to kind of think about some of our background and where we came from. And now I'm just like, oh, I got to see so much more of home yet. Oh, yeah. You know, to that point, I mean, I think you write a book or you become you work in editorial and you're like naturally curious about the world.

1:07:21And so when you start being curious about other cultures and writing about them as you do in your books and in your work you then start to think be introspective and actually think about your own story and you start to actually investigate but it takes time like it took me the better part of 40 years to take a real interest in growing up in west michigan i actually didn't have much of a interest but now in the last three four years i've really been interested in in everything about where i grew up yeah but it takes time i think a lot of listeners may be younger and don't really think about their hometown.

1:07:56It takes some time. Yeah. There is a certain like we take some things for granted, but as we grow older and, you know, we start thinking about how we grew up, it's really cool. Yeah, it is. And I want to know more. Yeah. So now I'm like asking my mom all sorts of things. I bet, yeah. Always asking her things. And she's like, oh, that's interesting. I never thought about that too. Is your mom on, do you do videos with your mom ever? No. Why not? My mom is camera shy. Oh, she is? But I've learned a lot from her and she's always willing to share her recipes. But she's like, I don't think I want to be on camera.

1:08:35I'm like, okay, I respect that. Does she come over to Atlanta and visit? She does. Yeah, we saw her for Christmas. And so she's always, whenever she comes, she does this thing where she just like cooks and bakes all day. Every day. Marathon sessions. Yes, marathon sessions. And I'm like, oh, thankfully we have two different kitchens. So she's up in the home kitchen and I'm down in the studio. So we're not in each other's space. But we did bake for Christmas together and that was really fun. Let me ask you, your mom's showing up in Atlanta probably with some ingredients from Egypt. What is she making?

1:09:12What's on the menu? Yeah. So my mom is really an expert at grape leaves. She'll make the stuffed grape leaves and all the stuffed veggies you can think of. So all the zucchini, eggplant, she'll stuff it. She'll make a beautiful rice mixture with lots of herbs in it. And my girls love her food. and she's also big on soup, so she'll make different pots. In Egypt, it's funny because we had many, many, many different flavors from all over the Mediterranean. So she'll cook all these different flavors, but she won't necessarily know that it's like, oh, this has more Italian vibe to it. She doesn't actually recognize that color.

1:10:08Yeah, she doesn't stop to divide. There are no borders almost in her cooking, which is really fun. And so when she was with us for Christmas, she made pies and different— she makes this Egyptian pie with phyllo dough and a beautiful meat mixture in the middle. and it's kind of similar to spanakopita, but the Egyptian version has meat in it, no cheese and spinach. So let me, let's take a look at that a bit. What's the fragrance? What's the smell? What are the spice blends in this beef? All spice, a little garlic, a little onion. It's simple. Yeah, I like that. And she'll just brown the beef and then like she'll make how we make spanakopita, layers and layers of phyllo, you know, and then that meat mixture in the middle.

1:10:59I want to make this. And it just like cuts it up into, you know, just like squares. And the girls just love it. And I'm like, I make the same thing. I have the recipe on my side, but the girls somehow love hers better. Yeah. And I think there's that sort of like what we call the nefes, like her breath in it, her love and whatever. And they just like they recognize that's made by grandma. Yeah. Which is fun. They call her grandma. That's it. Yeah. Teta. Teta. Teta. Teta. Teta. Oh. Well, I hope that you'll be maybe one video less camera shy and I can see you guys together. It would be fun. I'd love to see you both in cam.

1:11:36It would be fun. Yeah. Susie, on This Is Taste, we asked guests about the discerning taste. So to close this interview, here's a little rapid fire, fast and furious taste check. Are you ready? Oh, goodness. Okay. I'm ready. The best fruit? Watermelon. Interesting. Very, very controversial choice. I know. Very controversial. But you are from Atlanta. What makes a good watermelon? Well, my memories. Totally. I ate watermelon on the Mediterranean with feta cheese, and that's like the best ever combo. So I'll always, I love watermelon and feta. Unbelievable combination. And also when I say controversial, I only meant that.

1:12:17I think a lot of people don't like watermelon because they haven't had good watermelon. Oh, right. That's the whole thing. I know, yeah. You get in like a fruit salad on your flight. Oh, yeah. Yeah, so you got to pick a good one. It's got to be juicy. The worst vegetable. Oh, gosh. I love vegetables. I don't have... There's got to be one that you're like a little... Parsnips? I love it. I don't know. Jamie Oliver and you agree. That was his... Oh, was that? Yeah. Okay. Let's see, Jamie and I. You and Jamie. Let's go. Yeah, absolutely. He was also like, I don't want to shit talk any vegetables, but parsnips.

1:12:55Oh, yeah. I mean, not that, I mean, I probably could make it better if I tried. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I'm sure you'd make a beautiful parsnip dish. Yeah. Yeah. Just haven't tried. The best dessert. Baklava. So your baklava, is it nutty? Is it like, what's going on? We call it triple nutty baklava because I use... There you go. I use hazelnut, pistachio and walnut in it. And I feel like why choose one when you can have all of it? Yeah. So, yeah. I like that. And is making baklava difficult? Not at all. If you can assemble a lasagna, you can make a baklava. It's fine. Well said. Your favorite American fast food chain.

1:13:43Now, as a caveat, you grew up, you know, you lived in Michigan. We both share that state. You also lived in Iowa. So you had some Midwest. So there's probably some, you've seen some fast food in your day. Yeah, I have. But my favorite fast food exists in Atlanta. It's Chick-fil-A. Okay, fair enough. It's an Atlanta company, so I'm loyal to them. If I have to, I'm not big on fast food. No, I didn't think so. If I had to, it would be that, maybe. But not that often. No. Your favorite cookbook of all time. Other than the Mediterranean. LOL. Okay. The Mediterranean. Well, okay. No, I... Other than the dish.

1:14:24No, other than the Mediterranean dish, of course. Yeah. I have so many cookbooks now. I used to not buy them because I could never follow a recipe, but now, thankfully, I have built my library. I love Claudia Rodin's books. Oh, my goodness. She's a legend, and she's really the one who opened the world of Mediterranean cooking to the West. Yes, yes. I will always be grateful for her for doing that. So, yeah, Claudia Rodin. I love her. Great call. Also Egyptian. Just a little insert there. Did she ever write a book about Egypt? She has written her books. The ones I have, and I have a lot of them.

1:15:07She does talk about Egypt and her Egyptian upbringing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, she wrote a book a few years ago for 10 Speed and is based in London and still cooking. Yeah, she is. And she really has done a great job putting the Mediterranean and the cuisine of that part of the world on the map for people in the West. Favorite city outside America to visit for food? Paris. Yeah. I've been to Paris and I wish I paid more attention. So I'd like to go back. You need to revisit. Yeah. I know their food is not quite the Mediterranean food we're used to. Like I think Nice and like south of France would be more.

1:15:50But there's something about Paris. You cannot deny that there is. I had the best couscous in my life in Paris. Yeah. Yeah. There's some amazing North African cooking there. Yeah. So I'd love to go back because I don't think I took enough advantage. A cuisine you would like to learn more about. Korean. Yeah. So I'm looking forward to your book. Hey, thanks for the shout out. I appreciate that. Korea World on sale April 23rd. I'm just getting shameless at this point. I'm just putting it in there. But thank you for saying that. No, I love Asian food. And whenever we go out, people are like, what's your favorite Mediterranean restaurant?

1:16:28Well, I don't go to very many because I make that all the time. So when we go out, I want to do Korean. I want to do Japanese. So I definitely want to learn more about Korean food. Well, we do a duck bokeh, which is the rice cakes with crimson sauce from goji jamb. But we put a little bit of cream in there for a rose, a rose duck bokeh. Oh. And I think you're going to like that one. That sounds really good. Yeah. I can't wait. I'm going to get you a copy soon. Yeah. I can't wait. Your last one, your favorite sandwich. Falafel. I'm a falafel. Is a falafel a sandwich? Yeah. I think of falafel in terms of a pita, you know, stuffed with falafel.

1:17:07and you just walk around and eat that and it's like the whole world in your hands. It's exciting. I fully agree. Yeah. You've sold me on it. Falafel sandwich. Is it green? Is it brown? Does it matter? It was brown on the outside, green on the inside. That's your version. That's my version. That's the falafel emoji for you. That's it. They should have that. Don't they have it already? I think they might have it. There must be a falafel pita. I'm going to guess they do more of like a shawarma, like a beef or lamb. Well, that's another one too I love. I will tell you my favorite sandwich is anything in a pita.

1:17:43Just put it in a pita and I'm good. So my version of a walking taco is in a pita. I love it. Have you been to Zahav at all in Philly? I have not. And you know what? I would love to. Because I think I have the book and I think it's a beautiful book and loads of flavors that I want to try. It's a cool book. but you make your own pitas yeah yeah you can do but you also it's not hard but I can you can buy them you can buy great pitas around there I love yeah anything in a pita pitas are great when the pitas right yeah yeah love that nice and hot always Susie Karachi this has been so fun thank you so much for joining This Is Taste thank you Matt

1:18:27This Is Taste is hosted by Matt Rodbard and me Eliza Abarbanel the show is produced by Shalia Harris and Pat Stango and edited by Clayton Gumbert. Theme music by Steve Rydell. Visit Taste Online at tastecooking.com and make sure to subscribe to our newsletter for updates on all cool things happening.