359: Andy Baraghani

28:42Yeah, people are people are getting a little bit more weird. and want to. It's a high stakes game but I think people are making that risk and going meaning that you're not just doing populist cuisine but you're actually staying true to your point of view you know. So there's like Chintan's group like Unapologetic Foods which is just says it in the name and it seems your statement is so true it's that people are playful, people are going for dishes that maybe aren't going to hit every single person who comes in the door. Like I just went to Knox and I had I had the infamous soup or famous soup.

29:20And I didn't really like it. I won't order it again. But certainly they were cooking uncompromised food. And I enjoy Filipino food in that way. I think it's cool to see. And there's dozens of these examples in New York. Have you been to Fox Face Natural? So I haven't. And it's really on. I just saw that it was a beard semi-finalist. And it's on the top of my list. What's it like? I haven't been. And it's one of those things where it's like. you know, I get this way about certain chefs, restaurants where it's like, I'm like, there's this air of a little mystery, you know, and I'm like, that's always more appealing.

29:59I mean, I love, there are restaurants that have, that are big and there are big groups that I love and I go to, but I'm always interested in kind of the ones that are, I don't want to say quieter, but maybe We're just smaller. It's a smaller team. It's more intimate. It really feels like a family. But I really want to go. And I've gone in and I've tried to do day of, night of, like multiple times. And it hasn't happened. So I have to be a little bit more organized. Yeah, you've got to smash that Resi alert and just be ready to go. That's Dave Santos, right? Dave Santos. Lots of concepts he's run in the past decade in New York.

30:34And very accomplished chef there. I think, I mean, I also think like with design, I think spaces are just becoming, more fun. People want to have a good time. I don't think that has changed. I think people are just willing to change things up and put themselves in different situations and willing to stand up and sit down or I think the one thing that New Yorkers won't put up with is bad food. And I think there's better food than ever right now. And the margin of error is much lower and it certainly is a highway or act with these restaurants doing their own thing. You went to Kernel, Steve L's new place, the founder of Chipotle.

31:18I did. I don't even think it's opening. Oh, it's not even opening. It was a friends and family, I think. I don't know him personally. Yeah, yeah. And then I went and it was very interesting. I mean, I've never, I'm very, it's very interesting what they're doing. It's so different than what I do. but to see them make really delicious food and the goal is that I think it's like a scalable operation. With using automation. Yes. I mean, there are people there, but there is definitely. Well, I hope so. There are a couple of people there from what I witnessed, but there's definitely a machine. A robotic arm that you see in like 1998 Ford plant videos.

32:10you know like making the cars with the arms but but it is i mean it's not a great comparison but like it made me think of um super super technical fine dining restaurants which you you would never think to put like something like this where it's like maybe people don't like this term but like kind of this fast casual model that's using technology and compared to like fine dining but I think what can happen is like there's an exactness to both. And I have a lot of respect for that. That is not something that I necessarily want to do. I find beauty in the kind of irregularity and the kind of the mishaps.

32:50And I think those are the points where you can learn a lot in cooking. But for the people who can do that, I'm like, you know, that's amazing. It is amazing. You think about sweet green, you're literally hitting the button on your phone and you're walk into it and picking up in the wooden, you know, the rows of salads. And if it got to you from a human or got to you from robotic arm, maybe less material. Yes. As long as it's good. It's just very interesting to talk to a chef about the way a food can not be human. It seems freaky as fuck to me. I mean, I feel like I think actually throughout my, my, my book, The Cook You Want to Be was like, I want people to use less tools.

33:30I want people to use less technology. I want people to use their hands more. I think it's, for me, it's a way to interact with the food and really have a better understanding of it. We cover a lot of founders' journeys and stories on here and a lot of grocery store items in NCPG. And Andy, are there any new products that you're cooking with from new founders and new products that you enjoy that you want to like give a little shout to? Because I think it's just an exciting time for new products right now. No, you're absolutely right. I mean, this is certainly not new, but I feel like I have to shut it up because I think I eat it five times a week.

34:10Fish Wife. Yeah. I mean, that's my lunch. Five times a week. A great product. Everything from like their smoked salmon, their smoked cod. Like I'm eating that with a little bit of mustard mayonnaise, lots of lemon juice or vinegar, some herbs. Yeah, it's my go-to. um where else um um i know you're sent stuff too no sorry i cut you off i'll let you no uh aplos i would say i've been uh aplos and um and gia you know my uh my i drink uh alcohol my partner my partner doesn't so uh it's it's good to kind of have something that isn't just like juice and sparkling water so we both take advantage of that um you know most nights most days and nights of the week.

35:00Yeah, so beverage is definitely a cool category. We covered it a lot. What about probiotic sodas? Are you into those? Puppy and Olipop? Well, there is one. It's not probiotic though. And not new, but I think there's slowly people are becoming more aware of it. Something and nothing. Oh, I don't know that one. It's a great, I wouldn't even want it, just sparkling water. Yeah. Yuzu sparkling water. Something and nothing. Something, nothing? Something like that. Something like that. Or nothing like that. Well, you know what? I love to try it. I'm going to go down and I'm going to look at that brand.

35:39Thanks for sharing those products. I think it's cool to hear what you're cooking with. On This Is Taste, we asked guests about their discerning taste. So to close this interview, here's a little rapid fire, fast and furious taste check. Andy, are you ready? Somewhat anxious, but yes, please go ahead. Let's do this. The best fruit. Oh my God. I feel like you can't ask me that. Like, I feel like... Painful, I know. Painful.

36:03You know what? I'm going to be a little bit of a cheater. We're middle of winter. What's the best thing to eat? Best fruit to eat in winter is citrus. So I'm going to say quichu. Quichu. Quichu citrus. Yeah, very special. If you don't know it, tiny, tiny, tiny, smaller than a golf ball size. Kishu Tangerines Hard to find But you can order them There's A farm in Ojai This is so not rapid fire But Tangerine Man Do TangerineMan.com And you can order it And they're amazing Yeah Ojai Citrus season Late Jan Into Feb Do you like Pixies? I love Pixies Pixies What about Sumos? Love Sumos A little overrated I'm a Sumo fan It's in the logo of our podcast here.

36:54I love sumos though. No, I do love sumos. I love caracaras. Caracaras. Yeah. The worst vegetable? Green bell peppers. Like always. I've said it for my whole life. I mean, it's just like I eat everything. I'm not a picky eater at all. And I will eat a green bell pepper, but I just won't ever buy it. And reds are okay though? Yeah. Sweetness of reds. I don't like a raw bell pepper period, but a red pepper when like really kind of charred and burnished and it has it becomes sweet and smoky and has like a nice jammy flesh yeah it's it's it's triggering when the iron chef host in japan eats the bell pepper i always feel a little like gag reflex hit me i'm with you on that one um why do you think green peppers made it onto pizza it seems just i don't understand It was an era.

37:47I don't think, I don't even, I don't even think of like people do that anymore. I mean, that's a great question. It makes me think of like, like early nineties, eighties. I want to know green bell peppers on pizza. It was part of my childhood. We will, we'll, we'll dig into that on taste. The best dessert. Oh, and for someone who says like, I'm a dessert person. I am a dessert person. Well, I'll say generally it's like a fruit based dessert. I really love like a fruit tart, like just a really good, any kind of fruit tart, a rhubarb tart. But at the same time, like this is not a fruit dessert. I love a milfui.

38:30Yeah. I love a flaky dessert. I was going to wonder about the tart, the way the tart is presented and not like a crostata, but more of a tart. A tart. Yeah. I, I, I generally want like a very kind of classic flaky dough. So that's kind of my Achilles heel. Your favorite American fast food chain? In-N-Out. Very fast answer. I'm just going to leave it, let it hang there. In-N-Out, number one. Your favorite Bay Area restaurant? I guess Chez Panisse will take that out of the equation. Yeah, let's remove Chez Panisse. That changed a lot. I mean, it's hard. I mean, I've been in New York for 16 years, but I'm from the Bay.

39:11I'm going to name a couple restaurants I'm going to. So Rose Pizzeria is amazing. Really, really good pizza in the East Bay. Cheese board is a staple in other pizzeria. I love Tacubaya for Mexican.

39:27And yeah. Your favorite three, favorite four. Yeah, yeah. Were you ever a fan of Fenton's growing up? Love Fenton's. I just went there. I just think it's top of mind for me. Fenton's is great. Yeah. Okay. Brace. Your favorite cookbook of all time. Oof. listener there's a pain to face rubbing of the face and he is really he's turning a little red he's shaking his head and he's not happy no i'm not happy it's not that i'm not happy it's like you know i i um i i i i can i can tell you the ones that were the most impactful uh to me uh and you're like you're terrible at this i mean you're fine it's good you're gonna pass i mean i think Zuni Cafe is a very obvious choice.

40:13I mean, just so much information, so much technique. It really is a book that I thought a lot about when I was writing my book. It's hard for me not to mention Nigel Slater, Tender, Ripe, A Cook's Book. I mean, Eat, like any of his books. I think I have all of his books. I think the thing with him, it's less about getting really nitty gritty on making the exact recipe, but I think so much of it is more of like bringing certain flavors together and his voice. I mean, he really is an incredible writer. Famously, famously does not do press. I've interviewed many people who've been famously interview shy.

40:57I've been thankful. I've tried to interview Nigel. We publish Nigel here and will not do any press. So it's interesting. I love that you say that because he's He's singular for sure. There is a cookbook that people, it's, I'm thinking like, oh, so many of these cookbooks that I love are cookery books and they're from the UK, but it's called Near and Far. And it's not a big book, really talented young chef and writer. I think I'm drawn when I think when it naming looking at these three authors I'm really thinking about the thing that it's I shouldn't mention my mentor and friend and another amazing author David Tannis yeah I think of these people because it's it's not all these books have recipes for our photos for every recipe but they have a lot of information there's a lot of information and And I find they're presented in a well-packaged way.

42:02And I learned so much from them. So those... Yeah, those are great. You mentioned so many names that we recognize as our best and brightest. And I know asking for one was impossible. And you did not take the challenge. You did three. I think we had to shout out Lorena Jones, too, by the way, your editor. Oh, my God, of course. Gotta just say. Yeah, she was a huge part of my book and was a huge supporter. And I know she continues to be. Absolutely. Yeah, I couldn't let that pass. Okay, a few more. A favorite recent cookbook discovery. This is something that maybe landed on your desk, landed in your phone, things that you've looked at.

42:43I'll mention two that are very recent. Samantha Center-Borat. I think she's just like, she's so talented. I mean, what I was going to say was like, oh, I don't remember her ever being able to like eat her sweets. But she's an incredible baker, incredible cook. Also just one of the greatest humans. She has such a good personality. I was lucky to work with her a decent amount on sets when she was food selling when I was at Bon Appetit. She's just so talented. She really can do so many different things. And also Nick Sharma's new book. Yeah. Vegetable. Yeah. I mean, that's like an easy one that obviously is going to pull me in.

43:33I love my vegetables. And he's such a thinker. Very, very bright. I love that. Yeah. Wonderful. Wonderful picks there. A few more. Your favorite city outside America to visit for food. You're rolling your eyes. These are such basic questions. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Not rolling my eyes. No, I mean, I'm teasing you. Paris or Mexico City. Paris, Mexico City. You are a great sport. Those are good picks. You don't need to unpack those. Those are really good picks. This I want you to think about. Okay. And we can take a pause. We can do the magical editing. But a cuisine you would like to learn more about.

44:08I have two. Fair. Listener, that was a 28-second pause. That will probably be edited a little bit. Malaysian. Okay. Afghan. Okay. Let's unpack it a bit. Okay, so for Malaysian, what do you know about Malaysian cuisine that you kind of, like, what's the baseline? Well, I have a good understanding. I have a decent understanding of cuisines in surrounding countries. But in Malaysia, I've only eaten it. I haven't ever cooked it. And I would love to learn more and be more comfortable where I could actually play with some of the ingredients and the kind of the dried anchovies and incorporating that and the sambal.

44:50and like really, really playing around and making my own. Like that is something I love. It is, from my experience, it's a cuisine where, you know, it's not subtle in any way. The merging of a Southeast Asia and East Asia. Yes. And I love the food. And so I'm very curious to kind of have a better understanding of the techniques and the ingredients. I've certainly had like nasi lemak. But I want to kind of have a broader. I love that answer. And then with Afghan, you know, it's a cuisine that I believe gets conflated with other, you know, regions and but it has a crystallized point of view and culture, obviously.

45:33But what draws you to Afghan cuisine? Well, what draws me is the fact that you'll see like there's Indian influence. There's obviously influence from Iran. It's from Turkey. I think while there's similarities, I'm sure, to the food that I grew up with, Iranian food, I think what's so interesting about Afghan food, it is just it's all over the place. I mean, they do, they have incredible rice dishes and stews that are similar to, like, let's say, Iranian food and Indian food. But then also they do, they do Monty. And there's many, many variations of Monty, the dumplings. But, you know, they will have them filled with, let's say, spiced lamb and then cover that dumpling that's been steamed or boiled with thinned out yogurt and then chili oil.

46:30And I'm just like, wait, what's happening here? So I would just want to eat more of it and try more of it. And I also think, unfortunately, I think with countries and cultures that have gone through a lot of hardships, what can what oftentimes happen is that they have a very interesting cuisine. Oh, my goodness. What a well said statement about a cuisine that is in multitudes. And just add that like, you know, Afghanistan, the world's greatest apricots and nuts. Yes. You know, like almonds, pistachios. Yes. And different forms and like a roasting technique that's different than you might get, you know, in parts of California.

47:15I will say not to go on too much of a tangent. I spent time in Lebanon. The first time I went for fun. the second time I went to do a story on Kamal Muziwak of Taula in Beirut, an incredible restaurateur. And I would say I had such amazing food in Lebanon, but the food that I remember most was in the, in Berj Hamoud, which was the Armenian neighborhood. And I also feel that way about Armenia and that cuisine. It's like for the people in a culture that has gone through a lot, they definitely have such such interesting cuisine last one your favorite sandwich i mean uh does it have to be like a recognizable sandwich or like what i put in my no rules no rules okay like no rules what is your sandwich this is something that it's like childhood it's like and people are like whoa this is i wasn't gonna think this but it's like um a sesame sesame roll um calabrian mayonnaise like mixture like just like we're doing like an italian sub basically and then mustard, which maybe some people want, Dijon mustard.

48:27Thinly sliced martedella turkey, but chop it up with iceberg lettuce, vinegar, salt, pepper, potato chips, tomato, onions, raw onions, and that's it. So wonderful, precise answer. when you say chop it up you're chopping the meat up? yeah just chop the whole thing up like doing a chopped meat salad so you're chopping it's basically a chopped salad exactly it's a chopped salad but you've got Calabrian mayo and a little and you've got Dijon mustard but it's like a chopped salad sandwich yeah oh Andy lots of texture it's lunch time so this is amazing Andy Bergani this has been such a treat thank you so much for joining this thank you so much Matt very happy to be back

49:23Christian Reynoso, welcome to This is Taste. How are you doing? I'm good. Thanks for having me, Matt. Absolutely. You've written some terrific, terrific stories for Taste. And when you're next in New York, we'll have you in the studio. And I would love to do a full episode with you. But I really wanted to get a sense of this piece that you wrote about Zuni Cafe, the cookbook. Tell us first, to you, what's your experience with Zuni Cafe? Um, well, I, I started working there in 2015. Um, but it's a, it's a restaurant that I, you know, definitely had known about and had been to, I'd actually worked with one of the ex chef de cuisines at this wine bar in Oakland.

50:09and she had worked there for, I think, upwards of like a decade almost and had just left to do her own thing. And she was kind of like Judy Rogers, like protege in a way. So it kind of felt like I was kind of getting this glimpse into the cuisine at Zuni without having to actually work there. But then at some point, she actually got asked to come back to the restaurant. and then in turn she asked me to if I wanted to work there and so I you know I didn't have to apply or or anything like that really I just I was kind of I had this like really easy into the restaurant which was really cool um and then I worked there for five years up until the pandemic and yeah it was just like this really awesome integral experience for me like it was I learned so much there about cooking, even though I had been cooking for a while.

51:11I learned about seasonality. I learned about writing menus. I learned to manage people, line cooks. And yeah, it was really, really awesome. So Christian, five years is a long time to work at a restaurant and really like captured that, you know, you really get the rhythm of how service works. And And you write so beautifully in the piece about how the cookbook that Judy Rogers wrote with many others, but it was the author. And, you know, she had passed before you even worked there. But still, this book was used as almost a tool to inform the service and style of this iconic restaurant. So unique for a cookbook to actually do that.

51:51It was so unique because it's a place of its own. but Judy left such a such a mark on the restaurant and I think when you think of Zuni Cafe it's really hard not to separate Judy from the restaurant even though she has passed and you know when I started there uh it she had just passed away I think a year and a half before and it was yeah it was I think it was still palpable like it felt like she you know it was on everybody's mind in a way. And, you know, when I first started there, people would, you know, ask me if I knew who Judy was. And I was like, yeah, of course I've heard of her. Yeah, it was just like, it was just really hard to separate the restaurant from her at that point.

52:38And even though now I think of Zuni in a much bigger way, I think of it as some of all of its parts and how it's evolved over time. But it's, yeah, the book is, has, was just really kind of monumental and Bible-like for me and my experience there. Yeah. So, when you say Bible-like, I mean, are you as a, as somebody working line, are you just reading through it in a different way than like a general consumer and actually like using some of the techniques in the book on the line and you're, and you write about how you would work through recipes through the course of your time there. It's just a remarkable thing for a restaurant cookbook to do this.

53:18It is. Yeah. I would do homework. I would, uh, I would like choose a section in the book to read every day before my shift. Um, you know, whether that means like a page or a recipe or something that I knew that was, you know, in season or in the walk-ins that we were probably going to use at some point. and I would try to get a glimpse into, you know, how historically like Judy and the restaurant had, you know, prepared those ingredients. Um, yeah, it was just, uh, it was just a really cool reference that, you know, me and my peers and the other line cooks at the time, we would talk about like, Hey, did you like read that section about, you know, figs and how, how she describes them and how cool that was?

54:05Or did you read the intro to the book and how Judy like started, you know, started her cooking career and like how, you know, how just how beautiful that was. And, um, it was, it was really cool how, uh, at the time I was, I was working with cooks that and chefs and the whole staff there that either were, had worked with her for many years, um, or were new and we're trying to kind of get a glimpse into her psyche in a way. Let me ask you about, um, going back in writing this piece. And again, thank you for doing it. It was, I know we worked on it for a little while and you just did a terrific job.

54:46What is it like going back to this book? You know, you write about how you had to leave the restaurant during the pandemic when it closed for that period. And really that must've been difficult, but like just going back and recounting this text, this book, but also speaking to some of the great alumni who worked at the restaurant. That must have been cathartic in a sense. I mean, I really enjoyed writing this piece because I, you know, after you work somewhere for five years, I feel like you got to do something. You either are going to stay there forever or you are going to move on and do something else.

55:23And I had wanted to, I had been thinking about what was next and then the pandemic happened. And so it kind of made this decision for me. So what's it like today dining at Zuni Cafe yourself? yourself, you write about you had a wedding celebration there, which I think is a nice detail. And I don't know how much you go there now. I mean, you're a busy person, but what's it like dining there now for you that after having worked there for five years? Well, actually, I moved to LA a few months ago, so I don't get to go on a whim when I was in San Francisco. And when I go back, it's always just, it feels like going back to, you know, it's kind of cheesy, but this feels like going back to this like second home and uh i feel just automatically very warm and comfortable there and it's wild it's it's crazy how much of the staff is still there that i worked with and that judy worked with and yeah it's just a it's a really kind of uh nostalgic weird feeling for me what are you ordering when you're there what's the cuisine like these days i love the margarita there which i don't know if a lot of people like really like associate uh zuni with the margarita for some reason but it feels very zuni to me um it's served up it's strong it's delicious um it's like this really chic margarita that i love or if it's like if it's like later in the spring they make uh uh vinderange which is like this fortified white wine with like a little bit of vanilla and it's made with like bitter oranges and other citrus and served on the rocks it's really delicious um food wise i you know i love i love to order the caesar with extra croutons uh croutons are almost as good as the rest of the salad on that on that dish i will always order the piccolo frito whatever it is which is like a collection of little fried things and some sort of sauce usually and you know it's kind of it's very classic but i love the espresso granita there it's just it's kind of a perfect dessert to me it's it's it's refreshing it's light it's simple it's like it's like having an espresso shot but in dessert form right but still the iciness will get you uh it's that resets the palate love that um We've avoided talking about the chicken, which I think is like a bit of a, obviously you made like 15 ,000 of those, I'm sure, while working there.

58:01But I'm sure it still is pretty good, right? Yeah, I mean, it's iconic. It's brined for a couple days. It's succulent. It's really smoky. And it's kind of extra chickeny from the oven because it's just, the oven's just got this like patina of like roast chicken flavor in there. and the bread salad is maybe that maybe my favorite part of it which is you know if you've never had it it's like i'm sure you've had it matt but it's like it's you know it's got scallions and plumped currants and garlic and it's like bread that's been torn and grilled first and then stuffed into this like six pan that you that's drenched in you know chicken stock and chicken fat and vinaigrette and tossed with mustard greens it's it's really really good a lot of people don't know that you can actually order that just by itself.

58:51It's kind of like one of the only things that's a kind of a secret menu there. You can just order the bread salad. Wow. I'm embarrassed. I've not been to Zuni. I just went to Chez Panisse for the first time. I tend to stick in the East Bay when I'm in the area and I just haven't had a chance to actually make it to Zuni Cafe. But you know, I will hopefully this year it's on my list of places to visit. And this piece is just so, so special. And I really appreciate you writing it. Yeah. Thank you so much. I had a blast writing it. It was, yeah, it was like a really cool to think about like my experience there.

59:22Well, I can't let you go without asking about your column that you write for the, for the San Francisco Chronicle. You also write for Epicurious and other places. And I, your journalism is, is amazing. I think you're such a talent and I just love working with you on pieces. Thank you. Yeah. My column, my column is, uh, it's comes out every other week and it's a recipe story. It's usually based on what I'm actually cooking at home, what I actually want to eat and it's it's got this seasonal angle so we'll do you know something with i did something with meyer lemons last week it was like this meyer lemon poppy seed loaf cake um or like chop up whole meyer lemon and fold it into the cake batter and bake it and it's super lemony super poppy seedy it's delicious um so i try to keep that really personal and simple and seasonal um it's been I actually started writing that right before I finished at Zuni in 2020 when I had to stop working there because of the pandemic.

1:00:19So it really kind of pushed me to keep writing and keep moving in this like food writing world. Well, Christian Reino, so thank you for joining This Is Taste. Of course. Thanks, Matt.

1:00:35This Is Taste is hosted by Eliza Abarbanel and me, Matt Rodbar. The show is produced by Shalia Harris and Pat Stango and edited by Clayton Gumbert. Theme music by Steve Rydell. Visit Taste Online at tastecooking.com and make sure to subscribe to our newsletter for updates on all cool things that are happening.