371: Sun Noodle

0:28This episode is brought to you by Resi and American Express. You know, and ramen is like, it's like a regional food. Depending on what part of Japan you go, you get a very different style of ramen based on the climate. It's what's available, right? What the people enjoy. And so even when I go to Japan, there's so much to learn.

0:52This is Taste. I'm your host, Matt Rodbarg.

0:59Sun noodles are legends in the ramen game and the company behind many of your favorite bowls around the country. Kinshira Uki, our guest on today's show, grew up in Hawaii working at his family's noodle company and later helped lead an expansion through the United States and beyond. On this episode, we hear about what goes into making noodles perfectly matched for legendary shops like Momofuku Noodle Bar and Yuji Ramen, to name a few. We also hear about Sun's growing CPG business, which brings bowls of miso and shoyu ramen to home cooks everywhere. It's super interesting catching up with Ken Shiro, and I hope you enjoy this conversation.

1:46Ken Shiro Uki, welcome to This Is Taste. How are you doing? Awesome, man. Thank you for having me here, Matt. What is going to be great conversation? I feel Sun Noodle is truly a gold standard in all food, not just in ramen. I mean, it's really just a product that many of our listeners stand behind. You got your instant kits. You got your collaborations, places like Momofuku with UG, with Ivan Ramen. You got so many things going on. So this is going to be a great conversation. Yeah, you know, it's really a blessing. You know, I think these opportunities to share our story, it's a dream because, you know, coming out of Hawaii, you know, humble factory, humble beginnings and getting to be here in your office and talk about our story.

2:31I mean, that's just an amazing feeling. So thank you. Well, you're welcome. It's a long time coming. And, you know, ramen is an interesting product because, you know, there's been a modern history with ramen. If you go back even 10 years, but definitely 20 years, for most people, ramen was the dehydrated packages like Shin Ramen or just, you know, any brand of dehydrated noodles you would put in the hot water and boiled. but obviously now in 2024 we're in an era where everyone knows that they like their masaman over their shio and they also have the ramen emoji which is not the dehydrated noodles it is actually a bowl of well-composed ramen with bamboo shoots and uh an egg and all that you've been here you've been with your family this is like part of your story is it kind of remarkable about the rise of ramen?

3:17Yeah, you know, I think it's been an incredible journey just to see how America has accepted this, call it, movement of what we call craft ramen. And if you go back to, let's just say Japan, and where they started with what we're enjoying today, right, it's that beautifully crafted soup, a hearty broth, fresh noodles, and like you said, bamboo and mema and toppings that that they make. And then in the early 1900s, Momofuku Ando created and invented instant ramen because of, you know, hard times during, after the war. And so you've seen that evolution in Japan, but in the U.S. it feels like it was a reverse, right?

4:00Where people know, the majority of people know more about instant ramen. That's what they ate, you know, when they were younger or throughout, you know, college, which was affordable, it was approachable. And now you're seeing the movement from instant ramen to then becoming what these restaurants are producing out throughout the country, amazing bowls of ramen. I think that, you know, coming from Hawaii, I think we were maybe a little bit different where we had a lot more ramen shop because of our population of a lot more Japanese immigrants in Hawaii. So I kind of grew up around these opportunities to eat more ramen, but seeing it here today, you know, New York City, LA, all over the country.

4:45It's amazing. There's so much to love about a bowl of composed ramen. It doesn't have to be tonkatsu. It doesn't have to be rich. It can be light. It doesn't have to have meat in it. It can be vegan, amazing vegan ramens. And so there's multitudes these days and it's as exciting as ever. I mean, There was probably a moment when they said ramen was a trend, but you probably don't have a lot to say about that one. Well, yeah, I think if it was a trend, it wasn't going to be good for Sun Niddle. And so, you know, we wanted to make sure that this amazing food that we could connect Japan and the U.S.

5:22through a beautiful bowl of ramen was not going to be a trend. And so, but there's everything to love about ramen. You mentioned it's comforting. It's affordable. It's delicious. It's fulfilling. It makes people happy. There's tonkotsu, right, which is a creamy style. There's also the lighter styles of shoyu and shiyuan. So it's really accessible to anyone and everyone. And I think that's why we're seeing just a vast majority of ramen shops opening throughout the country. And then we're seeing it accepted by so many people of different age groups. It's just really amazing to see that. Well, let's talk about the sun noodle and the scale.

6:00I mean, you've got factories in Hawaii, California, New Jersey, and the Netherlands, and you're sold in over 20 countries. So let's get into, how do you describe the size of your company now? One, I think we're just always humbled and blessed. I think we, you know, it's all about, for my father, he's always shared with myself. It's, you know, we have to go and build the category. We have to go and share our passion of ramen for many more people. So the first 20 years from 1980s to early 2000s, it was fully focused on Hawaii, building the foundation. And, you know, people of Hawaii accepted him to open his business, taking a chance on his products.

6:41And then a customer of his out of Hawaii wanted to open in Orange County, California. And so we were shipping products from Hawaii for some time. And at some point it just didn't make sense. Economically, right. And so that restaurant owner invited my father to visit him. And my father went and ate at so many restaurants. And every bowl of ramen was delicious. But what he did mention was that every noodle seemed like it was all the same. So he thought that there was a chance to do something, bring his craft of the different styles of noodles that could match the restaurant soup. And so in 2003, we opened in California.

7:20and then the same opportunity to come out East in 2012 and just last year opening a factory in Netherlands. And so it's just amazing to see that this simple product that we make is loved by so many people in different countries or they speak different languages and different backgrounds. But to your point, I think that's why ramen is not trendy. It's there to stay because it can be incorporated locally to each people's favorite liking. Well, Ken, we'll get into like how the bespoke nature of the ramen business and how you work with, you know, operators and chefs, and you create, you know, unique ramen noodles for their broth and their restaurants.

8:06But you just said 2012, which is an important year. You know, in New York, you entered the scene and you started working with some pretty big names. Momofuku Noodle Bar was probably the top of the heap. And David Chang and you have a long history. But you also work with Ivan Orkin, Ivan Ramen, Yuji Ramen, which is definitely one of my favorites. And I feel like when Sun kind of entered New York, you got Dave and Ivan talking about you. And then all of a sudden it was like you had to have Sun to be in the game. What was 12 like for you? Yeah, I've never heard anyone say it in that way. But it's really special.

8:46If you think about it in that sense, and 2012, let's just maybe back up a little bit. I joined my father's company in 2008 and worked at a California factory where he had just built or expanded his business from our footprint. And that's right when one of our largest distributors picked Sunnitle up as a supplier. And so for the first time, we were going to get to go from a California Los Angeles DSD model to now have products of sun noodles go cross country to New York City. And my first two, three years was learning how to make noodles and working in the factory and doing a lot of R &D and production.

9:30And in 2011, the Asia Society had an event called the Ramen Fever event. and uh and so i was excited because i've never been to new york for business prior to that and got to come a few days earlier to to eat a lot of different ramen shops and and try a different types of ramens and get to meet so many people but uh but the the reaction when i introduced myself was so negative you know i think the perception that they had of sun noodle was so uh negative Negative? Shocking to me. What's negative about it? In Hawaii and Los Angeles at that time, we were very good at making noodles today and then delivering it tomorrow.

10:17DSD, in terms of getting our products to many, many restaurants directly from our factory. And what we did not know was in New York, the differences of a noodle being distributed fresh, refrigerated versus frozen. And we had just made the products like they would be delivered freshly, but we then distributed frozen through pellets. I see where this is going. There's issues. There's trucks. Exactly. 3 ,000 miles between L.A. and New York. And there's temperature changes in summer and winter. And so the restaurants had a right to be very, you know, just not excited to see me when I came by. There were crushed noodles or melted noodles.

10:56They're all stuck together. and Matt I think that's seeing that lit a fire in me because in Hawaii our perception or the brand is so strong and you know I had this kind of maybe will to just want to figure out how can I change this perception about them and so fast forward to 2012 my father let me come out here and we built a very small call it production room in Teterboro and I just knocked on doors and i think about dave uh back then and and ivan orkin and and yuji all these people and many more who who gave us a chance right who gave us a chance to give them some samples or or let us uh you know be in the kitchen to provide some art uh you know back and forth you started working with them directly to create bespoke noodles like ones that they actually wanted for them specifically and i'm sure to them that was a major opportunity right sure to be able because like before they are likely using you know more of a commodity noodle that was probably made somewhere in like big batches i mean now you make it in huge batches but i mean it's not even about the sizes but you were knocking doors and getting the recipes right the restaurant or the ramen scene in new york city was so at a high level yeah that the quality was was amazing and there was a short list of ramen shops that i said i really want to get into i'm gonna guess minka's on there is it is minka on Because Minka was like the number one.

12:24Mr. Kamada, Kamada-san, he is the one that I went to first. And I was 24 at that time. And I kept on knocking on his door. I knew what time he was coming in every morning, 9.30 on his bicycle. I was always there at 9.15. And I just kept on asking him for feedback. He had a supplier for many, many years as I was speaking to him. And you think about his loyalty to his partners. And I just wanted to get just one chance to see if he could sample it. And maybe because I was younger and maybe because I was willing to come in and meet with him every day is that after the 15th try, he put me on his summer menu for his cold noodle dish.

13:07And but it's people like them who give you a chance. And obviously his perception, I think 15 tries before was very negative and had bad experiences. And so they didn't want to waste his time. and then giving me that chance. So Mr. Kamara at Minka, and there's so many other places that have helped us kind of build a relationship and along the journey. I mean, what a journey it's been. And we'll get into a little more of this craftsmanship, but I have some more, some general ramen questions. I mean, how has our appreciation changed for ramen over the past 20 years in New York as ramen? Because you're right.

13:492012 was a high level, but really I think 2024 is at the highest level. But, you know, it used to just be like one or two styles, but now it's like kind of multitudes. Yeah, I would say probably the very dominant one was tonkotsu. And actually maybe we made some improvement there because at one period people were calling it tonkotsu ramen and now people are calling it tonkotsu, which is correct. But you see not just in terms of how many shops have opened up in the city, but the difference in variety. We have obviously the ramen, sukemen, the dipping noodle, the mazimen that Yuji does so well and others.

14:27And you just see the evolution there and then people just being comfortable using chopsticks and slurping. Great point, great point. And things like that. So I know Ipudo did something really early on that was really interesting is they actually made their noodles shorter than they would do in Japan. So it's easier for people to eat and little things like that that restaurants have done over the years to make ramen approachable and also just evolve the flavor profile. So it's, yeah, it's amazing. I think when I first moved out here in 2012, there was probably 15 ramen shops at that time. And today there's over 150.

15:05Wow. So that's been amazing. What do you say to somebody when they call you and they're like, Ken, I want to open a ramen shop. And let's not say New York because it's a unique market and real estate's crazy, but like a random city, what do you tell them? Are you going to make money in ramen? Are you going to crush it in ramen? Like, I mean, a lot of people dream of open restaurants. Ramen is probably one of the everyone dreams about, but what do you tell them? I would first ask them, you know, what's the vision? Like, what is the goal for your ramen shop? Because we get a variety, we got a lot of different inquiries, whether one wants to just scale ramen shops or one just really wants that one shop that he does everything himself or herself.

15:46And so we ask that question first because that will really allow us to think about how do we approach the next questions and next steps, right? And what kind of noodles do we pair with it? But we really ask what part of that ramen are they wanting to do? Some of them are very inspired by a trip to Japan. Some may have just left working at a ramen shop and want to do their own. And so it's really asking, like, what is the opportunity? from there we we really want to hone in on like what style what style of ramen do you want to make um we are big believers in in this craft ramen movement and i take that from whether it's third wave coffee or craft brewery and things like that where you respect and honor the traditional techniques and foundation of what makes a great bowl of ramen the five elements right a beautiful broth, delicious noodles that pairs with it, toppings that match it, or aromatic oils that elevate the bowl of ramen.

16:49And then from there, it's really asking, are you trying to mimic something that you were inspired in Japan? Or are you going to use local ingredients? And it gets really exciting from there about how Sun can be a partner of theirs to make that dream come true. Is it tough to open a ramen shop? Is it like really hard work? You know, we had Ramen Lab back in the days, and I would just say any kind of restaurant. We'll get there. We'll talk about Ramen Lab. I really miss that place. But the restaurant industry is so, I just give them so much credit. I think you have to have so much passion. You have to have so much grit to be successful.

17:23And so whether it's one ramen shop or multiple ramen shops, it's difficult because I would say ramen is probably 90 % prep. And then when the order comes in, it's kind of like heating it up and preparing it. But 20 hours of making pork stock or chicken stock and hours of making the perfect egg and toppings and then making sure that you have enough for it for the next day in terms of the people coming. It's just a lot of back and work that I think more people would appreciate seeing from these restaurants. And then what you get served is a very simple comforting dish. But there's a lot of work behind it.

18:05Yeah. And also just, of course, getting your noodles right. You know, getting the right noodles in there. And let me ask you, if you end up, you know, working with somebody, they're like, OK, they are going to open the place or maybe they already have places. But they're like, we need a specific noodle. We need something that is really going to work with our, you know, yuzu broth or whatever it may be. Shoyu broth. How do you ideate with the restaurant? Because I know that's a big part of Sun is like matching it. Is it like how do you do the tastings? Like do you like show up at the restaurant and help them?

18:33Like what's the deal with that? I've been working for my father now for 14 years. And as much as you try to make it very scientific, it's so much art. And it also, it's highly dependent on that chef because he or she has a very specific, probably, imagination of what that looks like. And I've been fortunate to be able to develop a lot of noodles for restaurants. And what makes it very challenging is that you can't always describe it in words. It's a feeling that you have to go back and forth. And so if a restaurant owner or a chef knows exactly what texture or flavor profile or length and cut and chewiness and thickness, then that, call it goal point, makes it a little bit easier for us to kind of focus on.

19:24And so like Ivan Orkin, he was making noodles in Japan for years. And so he knew how different flowers and different water ratios work for a noodle. And so that was, I wouldn't say easy, but it was much more of a smoother kind of R &D process because we'd go back and forth and we know what we're talking about. But if, and we have other really awesome opportunities where they are just inspired by this one ramen shop that they got to visit, whether it's somewhere in the US or Japan or elsewhere. And the very specific is I want that noodle. We go out and we eat at that restaurant. And if we've never made it before, we will go out there and we'll try it out and we'll try to figure out what is that.

20:08You'll do a reverse engineer for them. We will. And my father is, if not the best, we have about two or three other people that is capable of going out there and trying it and mimicking it. But it's vast. It's very dependent on what that chef is envisioning. I mean, let me ask you, you're American. You grew up in Hawaii. Your clients are in the United States as well. Are you in Japan a lot? What's your relationship with Japan? is son in Japan? Would son want to be in Japan? Yeah, if we go back to my grandfather's generation, my grandfather was in the noodle business as well. He is a mastermind at making noodles.

20:55And when I was earlier in my career making noodles at the factory, I would go to him for a lot of advice. I guess our roots are in Japan. My father came to Hawaii when he was 19 to start his business. and so I am Japanese American and I'm really blessed because growing up in Hawaii, you have that diverse culture. And my father's always said, Ken, this business, I can take it from what I know in my language and my craft, but you're American. And so go spread this love to people who speak your language and go share this craft. And so, yeah, I was in Japan last month for 24 hours. 24 hours? What are you, Ken, what are you doing, man?

21:40We're in Tokyo, Hokkaido, where were you at? It was crazy because I had to go to Okinawa, which is the southern part of Japan and Tokyo. And I flew for 26 and I was there for 24. But if there's anywhere, I would go for 24 hours. It would be Japan. And I was out there because a customer is about to open in the US and he really wanted to meet about some samples and I brought it to him. We tasted it together in Okinawa and he's approved them for his opening. so that's really great customer service and a lot of jet lag amazing and a very supportive wife yeah you have two you have some small small ones at home so yeah you gotta be you know your travel is not as easy yeah yeah and you have very supportive wife very supportive shout her out yeah um so you you have like your your father was born in japan so you have this link to japan and you are there, like are doing R &D, like in the shops.

22:34Because like Japan is where the trends start, right? And where we ended up getting those trends in America. Exactly. I think ramen started in China and it was brought to Japan and through the Yokohama port. And I think at one point it was only served to the upper class and it became then open to the masses. But we go to Japan where it's the most competitive place. There's 30 ,000 ramen shops in Japan. And, you know, we go out there because there's always something to learn. And ramen is like, it's like a regional food. So it's like pizza or barbecue here in the U.S. where depending on what part of Japan you go, you get a very different style of ramen based on maybe it's the climate.

23:21It's what's available, right? what the people enjoy. And so even when I go to Japan, there's so much to learn. And we also send our R &D, we bring our R &D team to Japan at least once every two years. And we go and learn the different styles of flour that's available, the mixing techniques. We work closely with our supplier out there for wheat. And we were actually invited to visit the factory that makes the noodles from one of my favorite ramen shops in Tokyo. the son of there's a lot of amazing noodle makers but there's a ramen shop called Tomita and if you ever watched the movie Ramen Heads this is the guy that's in it but they taught us how they make their noodles and it was completely different in approach and process than how we make some of our products but we were inspired by that and now we're doing a lot of R &D around that's pretty cool that they opened up their business and let you and let you in and that's very collaborative.

24:25But Matt, I always just say, you know, I think it's interesting because 20 years ago, when you think about shoyu ramen, you think, okay, immediately pair that with medium chewy yellow wavy noodles. Tonkotsu would be married with a low moisture snappy noodle. And today, I was in Japan and there is now shoyu ramen paired with low moisture noodles. and it's completely different from what we thought would be a blank canvas 20 years ago to what people are doing today. Is that like Gen Z? It's amazing. I don't know. Trying to just throw everything on its head. But it's amazing to see the evolution. Even what we thought was probably traditional is being challenged in Tokyo and so a lot of inspiration in Japan there.

25:12I love, I want to ask you about your favorite styles. Like we're going to just go there. I do have a favorite and it's one that I grew up eating. I think that's very nostalgic. It's a Sapporo style miso ramen. And the Sapporo style is a very distinct style where they use a wok, right? So they use a wok and they stir fry the vegetables, the meat, and they put the miso paste and put the soup in the wok. So it's super aromatic. It's super flavorful. There's so much going on. And they pour it over extremely yellow and chewy noodles. And that's what I grew up eating in Hawaii. That's where my father would take us on Sundays.

25:51And so today, if there is one that I could just eat just because of personal time, not because of work, but just because I want to get out there and eat something, it's always going to be a sappor miso ramen. Does somebody in the States do a version that's close enough for you? They do. There are. Yes, there's a lot in Los Angeles. There's actually one that just opened up in Chicago. Shout it out, man. Yeah, so Ramen Lord, I think it's called Akahoshi Ramen now. He was always doing ramen pop-ups. Yeah. But he fell in love with Sapporo because I think he went to school there and now opened up his restaurant.

26:28There is one here called Menkoi Sato in New York City. Not a customer, but I'm a huge fan of what they do. and they actually do very traditional styles of saapuromiso ramen. So yeah, things like that style I love. My favorite, I was also in Hokkaido, in Hokkaidate, I had a shio ramen that to me was like the best ramen I've ever had. So clean and just really what I wanted that day. I guess the day was quite cold. I didn't want anything too seasoned perfect. perfect and that's that's the beauty because depending on how you're feeling and depending on where you're at like i think you there's just a variety of options that's available for for for how you're feeling so yeah i mean ramen lab i think it went like three times and there was all these cool pop-ups i mean it was like this moment in new york what happened with ramen lab will it come back covid yeah i know i know covid is the reason i mean will it come back uh not anytime soon.

27:30It's not in our plans. You know, I think the whole goal of Ramen Lab at that time in 2015, when we opened, was to expose the different styles of ramen available. And it started because the majority of people thought ramen equal tonkotsu or pork. Good job, Apudo. No, and great, right? Because I think... They did a good job. And we love them for what they've done with the culture. But I had a call with a restaurant owner that wanted to open a ramen shop that focused on shoyu, a very clean, clear, light broth. And we had more restaurants like this that consumers would come in and say, this is not ramen.

28:12This is not pork. This is, it's not ramen. And so the Ramen Lab vision and the real purpose was to bring in the first year and maybe when you're visiting is every month, a rotation of some of the best ramen shops from Japan. And whether it be Sapporo Miso ramen style or Tsukimen, which is a dipping noodle or shoyu or just bringing the top class ramen chefs from Japan to do in New York City. And we built it within 400 square feet, standing only open kitchen so that people could see how much work and how much love there is to make a bowl of ramen. That, I think, we achieved our goal. Yeah. We did it for five years.

29:00You did it for five. Wow. It was a great run. Thank you. And so many great collaborations from all over the world. Yeah. And that was, I mean, that's one of the stepping stones of making ramen, a craft ramen culture in the U.S. is just having fun with it, you know, collaborating with awesome brands. Did it make money? Did you like actually, like did it work for you on like a P &L level? So my father and I said the money should go to the pop-up chef because when they come out here, we want to make sure that they leave happy. And we didn't want them to lose money. So the split was more for them.