376: Momofuku CEO Life with Marguerite Zabar Mariscal

26:44That's Colby Gym, right? Yeah. But we didn't call it Colby Gym. We called it, you know, short rib stew. Of course. And, you know, people would eat it, love it. And then, you know, we would say, hey, it's, you know, based on this thing. And so that trial, that ability to get people to experiment, to maybe order something. It makes sense. I'm arguing. I may push back just slightly on the idea of, I think the diner, I mean, look at Han Hospitality Group. Totally. And like doing, I would say, really gutty. Oh, completely. Maybe they will do guts one day. But like really they're doing food that doesn't compromise.

27:16And I think I understand what you're saying fully about packaging momofuku. People walk in from Omaha, Nebraska and want something. But I mean, I hope you can figure out a way to put the Korean words on the menu and make it feel because I feel Dave talks about this ad nauseum on his pod. And to get him to do a gamtang restaurant or a naengmyun restaurant and calling it naengmyun. To me, as someone who cares about Korean food from a writing point of view, but also culturally, it's it would be super dope. Yeah. But disagree, please. No, no. I mean, Priya's article about the group was it was great.

27:50And I think what they're doing is incredible. It's interesting. And that's their game. And I guess what I would say is, you know, Momofuku in a lot of ways. And this is something that I think, you know, we've come to be proud of. It's like a bit of like like a gateway drug for a lot of people. And I think that's what it was in 2004 when it opened. And, you know, people didn't know that ramen could be, you know, not a packaged product that came in a styrofoam cup. And so I think that we're maybe, you know, just given Dave's reach, given the brand, I think it's finding this middle ground where completely to your point, it's not whitewashing any of the flavors or the background of it.

28:31I think it's just where we show up, who shows up. And I think we're more interested almost in like bringing people into that fold as like that first step. Trojan horse. Yeah, Trojan horse. I think that's a really great way to put it when you talk about a gateway drug. And, you know, Dave, major credit for bringing, you know, Korean food, even though he was like kicking and streaming along the way. I remember I interviewed him for Koreatown and he was like, don't call me a Korean chap. That was like what he actually said. So but he's evolved, I believe, fully. I don't know, man. So I think what's interesting is if you look at the About Us page on Noodle Bar's website from like 2004, it says Momofuku is an American restaurant.

29:11And there was a quote from Wolfgang Puck from like a 1989 cookbook, something like that, that says, you know, essentially America is diversity into unity. And like what's more American than all of these flavors coming together? And I think that's always been, you know, Dave, there's a famous, famous only to me story of there's a ramen restaurant open like two blocks away from Noodle Bar. And it basically had a sign on the door that was like, we're authentic. If you want authentic noodles, come here. Like, don't go to, you know, what's the other place. Shots fired a little bit. Shots fired a little bit.

29:45But then Dave just put a note on the door that said, hey, if you want authentic ramen, go to those guys. Like, that's not our business. That's not what we're doing here. We're using Benton's bacon. And, you know, we're intentionally creating something that is an amalgamation of like Dave's upbringing, you know, his time in Japan, him being Korean American. And so I think this concept of authenticity as it relates to Momofuku or it relates to Dave is just not the same as, you know, other chefs. I mean, look at the ham program at SOM. I mean, for example, putting five or six heritage U.S. hams on there, doing a red-eye mayo, which is like instant coffee, mayonnaise and rice vinegar.

30:22So good. it I still make it from the momofuku cookbook it's like honestly um that is exactly what the heart of momofuku is so you've really kind of course corrected me and and thinking yeah great hand is doing um and calling it and they're doing it well but it's not momofuku at its core and you're you've done it you you've kind of set it set the record straight I still think a soup and stew restaurant would be pretty oh yeah I mean that I'm 100 % I don't want to doubt for okay is there anything else you can say about future restaurants that we haven't covered yeah I guess I, you know, and I think Dave has this show on Netflix.

30:55He's cooking live for one hour every week, which is truly insane. Insane. Airtime. Holy shit. And, you know, there's no swap outs. There's no, you know, there's like if he burns toast, the toast is burnt. And I think that in a lot of ways, you know, the way we look at it, it's like that's almost like a next generation restaurant. It's, you know, instead of feeding 12 people, you're feeding two people, but millions of people can see it. And I think that that's what's really cool and interesting. And so I think that's kind of where Dave's brain is right now. But I think there are other people within our, you know, the Momo universe that, you know, I think are still interested in, you know, restaurants and pushing food and, you know, have something to say.

31:35And I think the next phase of Momo, a lot of it is giving those people a platform. Is fine dining dead? Is fine dining on life support? Is fine dining thriving? All, none of the above? You guys closed your fine dining restaurant, your most acclaimed one at least. I would call Major Domo and I would call Noodle Bar not fine dining. That's my parlance. Marguerite, what do you think about this? It's fascinating. I mean, I think factually, I think it's doing quite fine. Like I think Lumberton Ann is as busy as it's ever been. There's unicorns everywhere. Yeah. But I think at least for us, it's going to need to change.

32:12I don't think it's out. I think it's just reevaluating what fine dining. I mean, the same way that Coe did in 2008. It's rethinking again what is fine dining. And I think in a lot of ways, Coe, you know, started out as kind of the contrarian. And then I don't know whether a lot of other groups, you know, followed or if Coe became less that contrarian and more just fine dining. But I think we want to go back to the drawing board and look at what it can be. And that's something I think that's exciting as well. I mean, can fine dining's price point not be fine dining? Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I think in a lot of ways and you're seeing this, it's like, you know, Coe was a tasting menu at 85 bucks when it opened.

32:54And it's like, you know, do you go back to it being 85 bucks? Like, is that actually like the more interesting thing right now than, you know, a$300,$400 menu? And maybe the food needs to look different, you know, just given everything we know about the economics of a restaurant. But yeah, I think it's like, how about this? I think Momofuku is interested in celebratory occasion dining. And I think that's what you see at Major Domo. A restaurant in Vegas does that better than anyone. So I think we're interested in being a place that people want to come and celebrate. but I don't know if that necessarily needs to be fine dining.

33:27You look at sugarfish, that's quasi omakase. It's definitely coursed out, has different tiers. To me, that crushes like all day, every day. I mean, for me, my dream would be to see Momofuku's cost structure about that where I can jump in and get it at 45, 65, 85 or 275. Yeah. I mean, if Joe wants to come back and do our version of sugarfish, it's definitely something that I tried to make her do. We've written about kimbap and it's in the cookbook. I mean, honestly, we talked on the episode, I'll link to in the show notes, it's great with Joe. I mean, she wants to do a good diner, maybe. I mean, put that out in the middle of the Catskills or Jersey or somewhere where she wants to live, wherever.

34:06I mean, put in New York. I have to ask you, Zabar is in your name. So you're a Zabar. What's it like growing up on the Upper West Side as a Zabar? It was very, I think, informative in two ways. One, just in terms of food in general and that obviously being like unbelievably essential to my upbringing. But then I think also, you know, growing up in this business and, you know, dinner conversation was very much about, you know, my grandpa has a printed out P &L that he would, you know, whip out and talk about and, you know, talk about mail order. And, you know, going through the pandemic and going through it with my grandpa was like also fascinating, right?

34:46It's like, what are they seeing? How are they dealing with this? So I think from a just, you know, I'm maybe relatively young for a CEO, but in a lot of ways, I feel like I grew up kind of with all this around me in a lot of ways. You knew what a P &L was as it was. Yeah. You knew what it was. And just to be clear, you're the west side Zabars and the east side Zabars is Eli. And we talked about Mike. You and great uncle Eli are kind of, you guys have a great relationship. You guys are talking. I love Eli. He's been on the show. What an incredible dude. Yeah. No, no. He's he's truly my grandpa always calls him a genius.

35:20And I do, too. Like what he was able to do for food in New York City, I think a lot of people don't know. And I worked for him actually right after my only other like long term job outside of like summer jobs working at Zabar's was working for him as a manager at his farmer's market in Amagansett. And, you know, I worked from 6 a.m. to, you know, 6 p.m. And it was extremely informative for me. I think, you know, coming into the hospitality industry and, you know, I always joke that it's like once you've worked for Eli, it's like everything else is easy. So, yeah, he's a tough cookie. He's yeah.

35:56And just even just the, I don't know, awareness, education kind of like he's I think he's up at like 4 a.m. He has breakfast with his best friend at 6 a.m. Like just the ability, the stamina, I would say, is impressive. He's a tough rugelach for sure. I've walked around eat and I've walked around the Upper East Side grocery with him. And I mean, him holding court just like as is such a privilege to walk around, have him pulling stuff off shelves, tasting constantly. I love that. And also just I think it's underrated. I mean, I think outside of Italy, the only place where you can consistently get like quality produce that you don't see everywhere is Eli.

36:34Like, you know, where it's like perfect little gem. It's, you know, your pink radicchio is, you know, all that stuff. the variety of like even just like peppers where he sources like the proteins like I think that was also extremely informative for me as a person yeah I mean it's it's interesting if you talk to any private chef in New York City and I have many we've written about them it's like every single one goes to that store it's truly where all private chefs cook because when you have a unlimited or a nice food budget you want though you want to shop at Eli's a bar yeah pre-side There's like a weird narrative in the press that there's like a family rift.

37:11It seems like you're bridging the two sides in a cool way. I don't know. Is this a bunch of nonsense? There's no rift. Yeah, no, there's no rift. It's weird. Yeah, it's weird. No, no, I mean, you know, I'm extremely informed by both sides of the family. That's really awesome to hear because I'm glad you said that because it always bummed me out. I think, you know, it hasn't always been always that way. And I think I profiled Eli in like 2010 or something and it was like a little different. But it would be such a shame to have both sides of the family not talking because they're geniuses in so many unique ways.

37:43Yeah. No, I yeah. I very much at least my experiences, you know, I didn't. My grandpa is what, 91. His brother's 95. Like Eli's like a spring chicken at like 80. Yeah. It's all that Bordeaux, man. You know, the Chateauneuf to Pop is like flowing through his veins. It's like definitely. No Bordeaux. Eli is famously. Oh, that's right. He's Loire. He's he's he's Burgundy. He's everything but he something I also I feel like I respect is at his wine store. I think he just doesn't sell Bordeaux because he's basically like, I don't like it. Like you shouldn't either. And I think that's very much like the mentality.

38:20And there's this famous story, which I think Eli would appreciate, which my mom actually worked at Eli's. And a woman asked for Jarlsberg cheese. My mom had never heard of Jarlsberg cheese. So she went to Eli. She said this person is asking for Jarlsberg. Apparently, Eli goes up to the woman and goes, you know, are you the person asking about Jarlsburg? We don't sell Jarlsburg because Jarlsburg is a composite cheese and we would never serve that. And, you know, if you want that, like, don't shop here. That's so great. And like that mentality and that kind of commitment to, you know, what he sells and it being really much like a reflection of him, I think is something that, you know, I have a lot of respect for.

38:56It's not shtick. It's definitely just like owning your truth in the fullest way. I mean, his private seller is legendary. What he has underground is, and especially out in France, I'm sure many have written about it. Such a fascinating guy. And my last question, I know in Hudson Yards, you try to market and obviously pandemic kind of squashed it. But would you guys get into retail? I mean, you look at H Mart as a public company now. Clearly, you know, there's a halo effect with anything Dave does. Seems like it's only natural that you would open some kind of retail, obviously, with your background.

39:28Or is that just nonsense? I think grocery is fascinating in that even in our lifetimes, we think a lot about things like olive oil, which there used to be olive oil. And now there is an understanding of a finishing versus a cooking. Coffee, there used to be coffee in grocery stores. Now there is, you know, infinite variety. And you think about kind of the ability to, if you look at like food education and how that's reflected back in grocery, I think we're going to see that in global flavors in a way that we haven't over the next five, 10 years. and I think I'm interested in both the product side, the market side.

40:04I mean, what's funny is people think that CPG is a great business and my joke is that it's a better business than restaurants so it's not a great business. Yeah, no. All food is low market. As I was saying, retail is also, once again, maybe easier than restaurants, maybe not, but they're all just constantly in bad businesses. I mean, you guys could sell Momofuku Nikes and that could be your business. We did. No, I know you did. Those are like a grail. I mean, people want those Nikes. I'm sure you have a pair. It seems like I ask about grocery and about retail because Dave is ahead of the curve.

40:36It's a real superpower. I've been a little hard on him in some ways, but I think you have to give him credit for being someone who has extreme foresight. And it seems like if there's anyone in food who could think about a new way to do grocery, it would be him and you and your team. So I'd really be curious how you say. I would love to see a whiteboard about his perfect grocery store. more and from a P &L level, not just like some Simpsons dream version of it, but like the real like this can actually have margin that works. Yeah. I don't know. I think I think it's fascinating. And maybe maybe when we're, you know, we'll add another low margin business to our repertoire.

41:13You guys got to get into the higher margin. I mean, media is also low margin, too. OK, that's funny. Marguerite, on This is Taste, we ask guests about the discerning taste. So to close this interview, here's a little rapid fire, fast and furious taste check. Are you ready? Let's go. The best fruit? I think mango. I love that. Do you have a certain type or season you like? I've had like unbelievable mango. I went to Taiwan for work somewhat recently, but I also eat a copious amount of dried fruit. And I think mango is like on every form factor, mango wins. When dried mango hits, it hits. I mean, obviously when it misses, wow.

41:48Yeah. Like that's going in the trash. But when it hits, it hits. When it's good, it's good. The worst vegetable? I think zucchini. but I think it's not zucchini's fault. I think people just really poorly cook zucchini a lot. Diplomatic. I'd agree. It's definitely in the lower quadrant for me. I mean, it's the water content fucks it all up. Totally. Makes it so hard to cook with. And also there's just too much of it. And it's weird. You have to like shove it into all dishes. I agree on that. The best dessert. The best dessert I think is tiramisu because it's the opposite of zucchini. Even when it's really bad, it's still pretty good.

42:20Definitely. Hits high, hits low, hits notes. your favorite american fast food chain growing up in new york city i feel like my exposure to fast food chains is relatively low um good point i i feel like i'm a frequent dunkin donuts that is my like interesting and not in a judgmental way tell me about it i like if i'm driving which is when i'm frequenting frequenting american fast food chains you know it's like they used to have this like veggie egg white like flap red that was like genuinely I think quite good um I or uh they now have these like wake-up wraps I guess my other answer and this is maybe controversial is I think like the Starbucks sous vide egg bites are sneaky phenomenal dude it's on record many places that's a really that's a killer product it's unbelievable they sell them in the grocery store I know and at Costco and they it's like I've had them like Delta tries to make them in the lounge You know, you can buy them and like none of them are as good as Starbucks.

43:17Oh, my God. Yeah. The like generic version, the white labels are always trash. Trash. Fully agree. Your favorite New York City restaurant right now? My favorite New York City restaurant right now is Mom. It's like M-A with a diacritic and M. Yeah. In the like Lower East Side, it's a Vietnamese place and it's truly phenomenal. They have this tofu dish where they make the tofu right before service. And it's like I've never had anything like it. So very, very. Great call on mom. I haven't been there yet, but I heard plenty. Your favorite L.A. restaurant right now? This place, Surawan Tofu House. Yeah.

43:53It's like. Of course. So good. Of course. So good. And they have this black soybean, which you have to get, not the regular soybean. And I have many times over the past couple months basically taken my suitcase, gone there for lunch before getting on a flight back to New York. How much time are you spending in L.A. these days? A lot. A lot, a lot, a lot. We have some things in the pipeline. And then just the restaurant out there is great. And with Dave's media presence and studio being out there. So just a lot of people. Yeah, it makes sense. It's actually kind of surprising you're based in New York still.

44:31Well, yeah, Dave and I are dividing and conquering. He's out there now and I'm in New York. I mean, I've never lived anywhere else but New York. So we'll see. Yeah, one day maybe. A couple more. Your favorite cookbook of all time. This is going to be lame, but I also use the MoMA cookbook pretty consistently. I'm making ginger scallion probably once a week. The red-eye mayo, as you said, is delicious. The sneaky, I think, best thing is during the pandemic, I was always making the ramp ranch. Have you made that? I've never made it for the book. Oh, my God. It is ungodly good. So that was my pandemic.

45:08I mean, DIY ranch, if you hit the ratios right, I'm sure that book. And this is you basically take ramps, you pickle them. Yeah. And so you do like a ranch with the pickled ramps. Yeah. That's killer. A couple more. Your favorite new cookbook discovery? I got very into Danabe cooking during the pandemic. And so there's a cookbook. I think it's just called Danabe. It's the woman who runs. In SF? No, in L.A. L.A. Like Torrio is the store. Right, right, right. And so, you know, rice, like I've made every iteration of rice that she has in that book. Our denabe journeys were pretty consistent around the pandemic time.

45:48We all bought one, bought three. They're beautiful just to have around your kitchen. A reminder. I love that. Your favorite city outside America to visit for food? London. I am absolutely obsessed with London. And I think there are people that still think, you know, this like age old idea of the food being bad. I think the food is fascinating. And they do really cool things. I know you and I have talked about whether it's things like dairy cows. Just I think the access to going during game season and the widgeons and the grouse and the partridges and all that stuff is like my dream. And you add the international cuisine is more international than America.

46:26Oh, it's incredible. Yeah. In New York, that is. It's a city. And I feel Jordan Michaelman's working a big piece for us on the modern scene of London. And I hope like if you listen to the show enough, you know, this is a refrain like London's food is. Yeah, it's second to none. Really great call there. So Momo's never been there, though. No, interesting thing. I mean, you obviously have fielded offers and opportunities. Totally. It seems to me that that could be a great city. I mean, I personally I would love it. We we during the pandemic literally there. We were asked to open a restaurant with a major retail place.

46:59and we got really far. We did like literally like design and whatnot. And we finally were like, you know what? We literally physically can't go and we don't know when we will be physically able to go in the future. So like probably not the best idea. But I was obviously going to go. Yeah, you got those on a PDF somewhere. It's in your inbox from 2021. You can dust them off at some point. A cuisine you would like to learn more about? I've been cooking a lot of like classic French food, which is something that just very much has like never been my my bag but um i made a poivre sauce for the first time that was delicious as you can imagine and then uh i really want to make a coke of in and i've got these heritage uh foods uh stewing chickens that uh i'm really excited about i love that you mentioned pat martin's off mic and and heritage is doing these old hens these chicken hens, such great fat.

47:55It just feels like these dairy cows and these heritage chickens that are being recycled or upcycled, whatever you want to call it. Such a future food movement. Totally. It's like both the future and delicious. Yeah, right. Of course. That's perfect. No, it tastes great. That's the bottom line. Last one, your favorite sandwich. Just ham, butter, baguette. Classic French, baby. Marguerite, this has been so much fun. I want to have you back. Please come back. I'm obviously a Momofuku stan. if it isn't clear. And I'm just so excited about your future. So thanks so much for coming in. No, thank you.

48:38Clayton, what's up? How are you doing, Matt? It's great to talk to you. You're the producer of the show. You're an editor. And you know what? We don't talk about the editor that much, which is kind of bullshit because the editor is essential. Well, thank you so much. And I'm definitely not going to cut that part. Eliza's out today, but I wanted to get on the mic and talk about some travels of mine recently. And I got to ask you, have you been to Palm Springs, California ever? Have you ever been? I've never been to Palm Springs. I've been there many times. I've been there like 15 times and that's no joke.

49:02Really? Why so many times? I've enjoyed my times there for a variety of reasons. Mostly I enjoy the desert life. I think there's something very restive and calming about the desert. And I also just love the architecture, as I'll mention on this little segment about my travels there. But I just want to see where we're starting with. From complete ignorance. So give me a picture of this place that I've never been. Oh, sure. So you drive from LA and you drive through like Riverside. Shout out to Tony's. I go there all the time. Great Taqueria there. And then you end up in like a very vast, beautiful country that doesn't have a lot of population.

49:49Lots of wind turbines and mountains and it's gorgeous. And you drive through that little patch and then you end up at the city limits of Palm Springs. And you're right nestled against two mountain ranges. And Palm Springs has been a destination for folks in Southern California to visit since the 40s. And really the boom was in the early 60s. And with that, there's a legacy of historical mid-century architecture. that dots the whole community there. So there's that going for it. There's also a little music festival called Coachella that happens out there. You may have heard about that. I have heard of Coachella.

50:29But I don't care. I don't go to Coachella. But what I go there is I go there for chill times. And I went there recently. I was at a really cool conference. I got to speak at about some of the work we do here at Taste. And through this invitation, I was able to visit some places that I hadn't been in my 15 times. and I wanted to go over some of them. Yes, please tell me. So Palm Springs in general, one of the big takeaways from my time there has always been the food has always been a little bit lacking. And it's not because folks haven't tried. There's a lot of factors that create this kind of bubble of mediocrity, I'll call it.

51:11It's mostly the generation of folks who've been going there are quite, I'll call them, older, older generation. So I think tastes and preferences have been certainly informed by that. And there's a lot of outside folks going there, but also for whatever reason, there hasn't been a lot of ambition there. It could be because of the, the, the lack of, um, you know, in the, in the summertime it shuts down. It's so hot there. So there's like, it's a seasonal place. So that's an issue. But also I just think that people haven't necessarily unlocked the, the concepts that work there. Like it's a lot of really heavy food, which is bizarre to me because it's so hot.

51:50It should be light and acidic and refreshing food. And for whatever reason, it's stuck in this like steakhouse era. So you think it's the fact that older people are the ones who come and they come every year and they want what they want. And nobody wants to make that sort of leap in order to shock them a little bit. Agree. Well said. You summarized it really well. And on the flip side, there has been a change lately. And I wanted to go over a couple places that I found really exciting on this recent visit. The first place I want to really shout out is called the French Miso Cafe, which my friend AJ hit me to.

52:30And she's got a spot there. She lives in Brooklyn and she golfs a lot. I mean, there's a lot of golf going on there. And I really was interested in it because it's a French style all day cafe. I think it's done at dinnertime. but she mentioned there's a great bento box there and I'm like sign me up and in fact amazing bento with some sockeye salmon that's been cured and pan seared with shiitake mushrooms broccolini a little bit of rice some tofu that's been marinated in soy ginger and and some crispy seaweed it's all in the box form it comes with a side of miso soup and I just I really like these flavors this Japanese traditional Japanese lunch plate being served in Palm Springs for me There should be more Japanese food.

53:14There should be more Korean food in Palm Springs. And I just loved it. What was another place? Another place I went to, and really, I have to give a shout out to our hosts from the tourism department in Palm Springs. Thank you so much for getting the reservation at Bar Cecil. I've been trying to get a reservation at Bar Cecil for a very long time. I think I tried like four or five times. And I was never able to land it. So they helped me out. So a little bit of history, Bar Cecil, I think is around five years old and it's from the folks behind Sparrows Lodge and Holiday House, which I've stayed at Sparrows Lodge and I got to say it's a great hotel that's kid free, has a great pool.

53:53And I haven't made it over to Holiday House to stay, but it's a great little setup there. and the owners are Jeff Brock and Richard Chrisman. And these hoteliers have a really great sense of history and style with their lodges and their hotels. But Bar Cecil is a standalone restaurant that they opened and it's named after Cecil Beaton. Do you know that name at all? Cecil Beaton? No. I want to read a little quote because I was curious and I was doing some research and I found this little passage about this. It's actually a guy that Bar Cecil is named after and he's a Renaissance man who was equal parts a rebel and aristocrat, an artist who lived between classical charm and New World rebellion, a provocateur, an expressionist, an estate who incorporated many mediums to create a style of his own.

54:40So that's like the guy, the Cecil behind Bart Cecil, this guy, this guy's British designer. So when you name your establishment that, the expectations are sky high, I would think, right? Yeah, absolutely. An estate, a provocateur, an expressionist. Okay, so I went for this meal. And I have to say, first off, it was good. And I'm not saying it's bad. I'm not saying it was extraordinary. I'm saying it was very good. And I love that. I love that there's a good restaurant in Palm Springs, so it's hard to find. I will say that the wait and the difficulty to book it is challenging for me. But I get it.

55:15There's a lot of demand for a good restaurant in Palm Springs. So really, the tip there is that they open their books 30 days ahead of time, so you can get the reservation ahead. or you can show up a little early and wait, talk, be nice to the person. I met a really great guy who's working the booth and I feel for the guy who has to turn a lot of people around. Just wait around, be nice to him. But ultimately, they're well known for their$50 martini. Well, you do not drink, correct? I do not drink, you're right. Were they able to make an NA version for you? A$50 NA drink? You know, I didn't have the$50 martini.

55:49I was intrigued by it though and it does come with, I think, a little bit of caviar. It has some luxury elements to it. I appreciate that. I drank water. I had water with my meal. Okay. But that's okay. I didn't really want to have a sugary on any drink. But what I did want to do was try the food. And as I said, it's a good meal. I had some steamed artichokes with an aioli, very classic California. The highlight, to be honest, and I got to say, it's hard when you say your highlight is the bread course. But the Parker rolls with the date sage butter, yeah, really good. That sounds very good. Excellent.

56:21And then there's a roasted seabream with miso glaze. And then there was a pretty good pavlova. So I would say this was an above average meal. I thought the room was cool. There's a lot of people having those$50 martinis and you could hear it. And I just got to say - They're complaining about it? No. So Palmer Springs is a place for vacationers to have fun. Have like a little, go a little wild. When you want to go out and have a meal, Bar Cecil's cool. I'm glad I went. So those are two spots I went to. I also want to mention, I went on a architecture tour that I've been trying to book for like 10 years.

56:58So this was like the trip when I called in the favors to get things booked. And again, I love visiting Palm Springs. It is such a cool city to visit for. And the architecture is a huge draw for me. So I really enjoyed that. Tell me about the tour and then tell me what your favorite piece of architecture was. For sure. So this tour is called Mod Squad Tours. Again, I've tried to book for years and really I've never been able to do it. But finally I got a seat in Kurt Sire's van. And Kurt has been doing these tours for I think 10 years. And I went on his interiors tour, which is a visit to three separate residences where we get to actually go inside.

57:37And I went to three very unique properties. One was a renovated hotel in the Taquits River neighborhood. another was this kind of I would call it a little bit of a it's in Little Tuscany which is like kind of the hills that are above Palm Springs this music executive was obsessed with cars and he had like four cars in his garage but it was like had a really unique like fireplace with like very 72 very like fireplacey very like I could see like Kenny Loggins hanging out there you know in his prime. A lot of hairy chested men on bear rugs. Hairy chests everywhere. And the other place I visited was a replica of a 1963 spec home in my favorite neighborhood, which is a Deep Wall Estates, which I think has the best architecture and has some of the most iconic houses in Palm Springs.

58:32But Kurt taught me a lot about Palm Springs architecture, but also he taught me something that I'd never really considered. We think of mid-century modern architecture, and we think about, obviously, some of these homes with a certain type of roofing, and, you know, they're more modular, it's in the international style. We also think about the home decor. So, we think about Ames Chairs by Herman Miller, Egan Eiermann sofas. We think about this very specific style of home decor and we think of it as almost cosplay. Like you have to have a certain decor to have a mid-century life. What Kurt was telling me, and this is part of this tour, which I love, it was not really the practice to buy all this shit.

59:17The reason we know the mid-century and especially Palm Springs to have all this stuff is that there was a very specific photographer who would stage the homes and shoot in this way and really make it clear. and I'm being like a little broad here, but make it like this was what they were selling. They were selling these houses with specific furniture. In fact, the reality was that these folks owned second homes. They had limited means, some of them, and they kind of collected eclectic furniture from different eras at a variety of used furniture and swap meet places around Southern California. The Rose Bowl swap meet being one of them, which has been going on for years.

59:53So a lot of the home decor of real Palm Springs homes is actually eclectic and not in this kind of cosplay way. That's more the Airbnb model. So I really wanted to talk to Kurt about the kitchens. He told me a little bit, but what's happening in Palm Springs. So in mid-century modern, it's like a Wexler home and like these homes that have really small spaces and tight ceilings. You know, they often have had the original kitchens ripped out and they're doing almost exclusively IKEA. You see a lot of IKEA in Palm Springs. And it's not because of expense, though. I'm sure for some reason it is. It's because IKEA, this modular style, is just making great kitchen furniture and making great kitchen appliances.

1:00:36And I have to say, I was like, wow, you know, you're like, you know your design stuff and you're telling me IKEA is really big here? And it's like, yeah, it's like kind of this wave, this movement here. So, I'll tell you about one more place. Please do. And again, Palm Springs is one of my favorite places. I didn't want to, these are the places I went to on this past visit. And I'll probably go again and I'll probably talk about new places. But Billy Reed, Billy Reed is one of my favorite places to visit in Palm Springs. And it's a restaurant that has like pretty good pies and strong coffee. And it's just this very like it was founded in like the early 1970s.

1:01:11And Billy is still there. The man, Billy Reed, the namesake, but baking the pies in the morning. And I just loved visiting Billy Reed. This is not the first time, not the last time I've gone there. I love that he named his restaurant full name not Billy's right not Reed's Billy Reed yep that takes so much to just be like my name's on it I'm the owner I'm the owner that's it these are my pies yeah no it's it's always I've mentioned before it's one of my favorites we had a lemon meringue it was pretty good I mean I'm not gonna like put the pies over as like the greatest pies but I really love going there.

1:01:47I meet really unique people working there. They're always so kind and cool. And it reminds me a lot of restaurants when I was a kid, like early 80s, like earliest memories of restaurants in the Midwest. And like these old restaurants that had like the numbers above that would ding when your table was ready. You know, booths, lots of booths, lots of this like Victorian, weirdly Victorian, ornate decor inside. like that seems so out of place but i just remember going to old restaurants that had this like old-timey feel to them and and when you were talking about the service and the people they hire do you find that you know you're saying the pies are good but the people who serve the pies if they're great doesn't that make that experience great yeah i agree right it makes such a big difference and i think that's sort of forgotten a lot of times is is who is serving your pies makes such a huge difference.

1:02:43And just your food, you know, that experience of connecting with somebody is big and it can sort of make the food a little bit better. Yep, I love it. It's a great point for all restaurants, but you know, when the food is mid to decent mid and the service is sweet and kind and offering you a free refill at any moment, I'm gonna go back. And you know, again, I love this place. It's really timeless. Make sure to go and say hi to Billy. Will do. So real quick, what's your favorite piece of architecture? It may be not something that you saw on this tour, but your Palm Springs architecture, that's your building.

1:03:19You always need to see it. The buildings on East Palm Canyon and Indian Canyon Drive are two of my favorite strips. There's an old chase that's around the bend that I love that they've just started to renovate that I think is amazing. The art museum there is an incredible collection of photos from the area. And I really love the architecture center. I really like that place too. They have rotating exhibits of different designers. But if it was like a piece of architecture in the neighborhoods, again, I mentioned Wexler. There's a whole Wexler section and these really unique structures. I would say Robo Lights is probably one of my favorite places to visit, which is its own installation, so to speak.

1:04:01kind of in the Meow Wolf vein of like this, like these like sculptures and structures that have been built by this eccentric family in the middle of Palm Springs. As soon as you said eccentric family, I'm in. Yeah, it has a little bit of great gardens going on, like what's happening behind the doors of this house that has literal fun house style, like 30, 40 foot sculptures in front of it, menacing faces, astronaut decor, lunar landings. I mean, really like unique style of architecture in the middle of these like very well-maintained and manicured homes. Wow. Well, thank you for educating me on Palm Springs.

1:04:42Yeah, Clayton, great catching up with you.

1:04:49This is Taste is hosted by Eliza Abarbanel and me, Matt Rodbar. The show is produced by Shalia Harris and Pat Stango and edited by Clayton Gumbert. Theme music by Steve Rydell. Visit Taste Online at tastecooking.com and make sure to subscribe to our newsletter for updates on all cool things that are happening.