379: Wylie Dufresne & Joshua Weissman

25:09I want something different. And I was like thinking and I was like, well, you know, I mean like pasta is chewy. What if there was like a pasta vibe? And I ran down the list of different pastas that there could be, you know, combined with that. And Carbonaro was the one that kept calling out because it's the easiest to understand for people. Yeah. And it's just a crowd pleaser too. I bet a la grigia would be great on it, too. Oh, grigia would be great, too. I like the jolmyun that you did, too. That's cool. That's another great Korean banger, yeah. I mean, those noodles are all about being chewy, right?

25:37That's like kind of the whole POV of that dish. So that one was a no-brainer. That was actually one of the first recipes that came on there because I was like, these are literally about being chewy. And chewy is a weird word because I think for many it's pejorative. It's definitely a neg and hard to wrap your head around, but you're celebrating it. Totally. I think the American palate doesn't celebrate it, but a lot of other cultures do, especially Asian food culture across the board. It doesn't matter where you are. They all in, you know, I mean, to the point of Korean food, I mean, so many different dishes.

26:10I mean, taboqui is a great example because that's what it's all about. That's the whole, that is the main experience of that. There's not that much flavor in those rice cakes. Yeah. Right? The sauce has flavor. Yep. So why are the rice cakes there? Yeah. texture super well said and i agree and i kind of misspoke when i said uh chewy is not uh loved it's from the american gaze fuck yeah it's not yeah no i think it's a good point i'm glad you said it because it's it it shows that the american palate just doesn't like hasn't recognized it yet that doesn't mean that they don't like it it's just that it's typically because like americans love all these different foods they just don't think about how why they love them yeah and chewy is usually just something you say, oh, that was too chewy.

26:54Right? We like say it's too chewy. It's like extra chewy. Yeah. Not to interrupt you, but when was the last time you were like, that was perfectly chewy? Who's ever said that? No one says that, but if you go to Korea or Japan, it's like that is the perfect chewy noodle or chewy rice cake. The best comparison I've made to get people to understand why chewy is great is just like bagels, and they go, oh yeah, oh, I love a chewy bagel. Yeah. Cool. Alright, there you go. I love chewy taffy. There you go. See? Yeah. Now people can make that connection. Cool. One pound butter mashed potatoes. You are my guy.

27:26I'm more of a 50-50 personally, but that's a little insane too. But one pound saying it right in the headline. Yes. Thank you. I mean, that's what it is. They're kind of a riff off of Robichon. Robichon. Thank you. Sorry, I was forgetting. They're kind of a riff off Robichon potatoes, which I mean, frankly, they basically are. That's what they are. It's just it's not really it is mashed potatoes. that, you know, if you like mashed potatoes, you're going to see a very similar association. But what it really is, is it's a potato emulsion with butter. Yeah. That's really what it is. That's a good set.

27:59I mean, you got to do it at Thanksgiving, though. It's like the perfect Thanksgiving showstopper. I love doing it because people are like, these are the best mashed potatoes ever. But here's the best part. You don't have to make that many because no one's going to be able to eat the normal portion size. It's so true. I mean, that's why buffet style with these 50-50s or one-pounds can be tough because people will scoop a bunch of scoops. Yeah, that's not going to happen with this. You've got to plate it, right? Yeah, you've got to plate it, but also if you just let everyone know, hey, start with a small amount of these potatoes first and then come back for seconds if you want more.

28:31They never do. No, definitely. It really hits you. Okay, so I never thought about caramelized onions and miso soup, and you're doing it here. And this marriage of umami sweetness is nice. How did you come up with that? I was thinking French onion soup miso soup and that was it it's so smart it's good well it's funny like French onion soup almost is the miso soup of France so to speak I mean granted French onion soup isn't that popular in France it's more of like an Americanized thing but like when you think of French onion soup I would put borderline in the same category as miso soup it's like the starter it's very unctuous it's very rich it's very dark but it's also kind of refreshing it's kind of nice yeah and the technique that you use with the onions is you kind of puree them, right?

29:15You get them kind of broken up a bit, right? I mean, I think they naturally get broken up just because they've been cooking for so long. Maybe that's why I'm thinking about it. Yeah, I think that's one thing I'm like, you got to like puree. Like chunky soup can be a bummer, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I agree. And you know, like the funny thing about the caramelized onion miso soup, you could also like not caramelize them and just char them. Yeah, yeah. And leave that in there. And that has its own flavor. It just smokes it up a little. Yeah, burnt, yeah, the char is a good point. I love your jungle juice, which is mezcal, campari, orange, pineapple, smoked salt.

29:46Man. Good stuff. It's like you're not going to get that at a Big Ten University that I attended. No. But it's pretty nice. Unless it's like one of those universities that has really snobby kids that are super rich. Which is like every Big Ten University, to be honest. Well, I guess you're right. So then maybe you will see it. After this, hey, to all the universities out here that have me speaking, maybe you should give them this book. No, but I mean, it's funny. I made that recipe because I've always hated jungle juice. And I was like, well, I guess jungle juice isn't that different from like a, you know, a fun tiki style cocktail.

30:20And so that was kind of the inspiration of that was like tiki style cocktail in the form of just a ladle full of it. Yeah, it's the best. And like, I think putting like smoky flavors with the mezcal and the salt is like a great way to like, whoa, this is weird. Yeah, exactly. Because jungle juice usually tastes terrible. So when someone tries this, they're going to go, oh, I'm definitely going back for another one of these. They're like, what's in the punch? Yeah. So you said you're just talking to colleges. That's cool. So you have a lot of college-age fans. And what do you teach a 19-year-old about food?

30:50Normally they bring me in to talk about career stuff. Oh, really? Cool. I think because it's my age and I'm close enough to their age range and they happen to watch me. It's a good connector. I like doing it because I like being able to shed some light on the perspective of get close to the sun. like there is no secret kind of energy, you know, like don't overthink it so much. What do you like? And then actually answer that question and then stop there. Say nothing else to yourself and just ask yourself the question of what do you like? If you can't answer that, you already have problems you need to fix.

31:23But if you can't answer that, which I feel like a lot of people really can, if they really sit down and think about it, um, then just stop yourself there and do that. Uh, is always kind of the talk I usually have. But what do I teach? You know, I think it's just a fun, again, another way to provide value that's not necessarily about cooking, but more about thinking about food and how that affects your life. And so, you know, we do a little cooking demo. We do a Q &A session. I like, the thing I love about the Q &As, I bring a ton of people on stage. Yeah, yeah, right on. And I love, like, just executive chefing them.

31:55You know what I mean? Just like shitting on the, college kids are great because they love being deprecated. They're very self-deprecating. Yeah, they can admit their shortcomings. Yeah, totally. Yeah, they love it. They love it. So I'm basically just like razzing the crowd, razzing the people on stage, and they love it. It's just like, it's humanizing. It's fun. That's cool. It reminds me of like Hugh Atchison. He does some of that shit. It's a cool vibe to do that, yeah. It's good. It's such a positive energy in there and being able to like make fun of yourself and laugh about like, life's hard.

32:21Like, food is great. Let's call it a day. I agree. You make your own breakfast sausage in the book. I gotta ask, have you had Taylor Pork Roll? Do you know what this is? Oh, we just launched a video where we slandered it a little bit. So you're a West Coast guy, right? So you're not really the Jersey dude, but what do you mean by slander? Where did we go? It was just like not what I expected it to be. I'd never had it before. We did a video recently. Is it up? I haven't seen it. It's up officially. It literally just went up like two hours ago, three hours ago. Oh, okay. It's performing really well.

32:51We're super happy. Interesting. This is a random question. Wow, interesting. It is by far the biggest video we've ever done. It is tasting and ranking every single food in America, all 50 states, the most popular dish from each state. Oh, shit. That's great. We made all the way through, tasted and ranked every single one, 50 dishes across the United States of America. And we had people vote on each state. Because what I didn't want was I didn't want people coming back to me saying, that's not the food. That's not the food. It's like, look, I'm going to put it on y 'all. Y 'all vote and tell me.

33:22Everybody voted. That's what we picked. We got to Taylor Ham. and that was one of the dishes. I cannot remember who we gave that to. I didn't know what to expect. I thought it was going to be like a smoky ham kind of, it was just like this really salty, salty, salty. It's not smoke, it's more salt, you're right. Yeah, and we put it on, I think, in a sandwich. Oh, yeah. And I was really, had high hopes. It wasn't bad, it was just, it's just really salty. If it's the first thing you eat, agree with you fully, it's too salty. And if you've had like eight things, it's bad. If it's like the first thing, like at 8 a.m.

34:00after coffee. Totally. It hits. But like it's a tricky one. It also depends on the brand you get, I bet, too. I bet, yeah. Because the brand that we got I feel like could have been better. Is it in a white package, the one you got? That's the one. Oh, fuck. That's the one. I was expecting it to be like fattier. It's not. It's definitely not. It's just very just lean and salt. It has a little bit of haggis vibe to it, I think. It's a little bit. Haggis can be very salty, you know. It has a little bit of that. I wanted it to be good, man. I had a bias tilting towards good, and when I ate it, I think I was sadly mistaken.

34:31But also, it was like 20 dishes in. I mean, that's the thing. What about Michigan? Do you recall which one you had for Michigan? I don't remember. I was going to say, if you remembered every single one, I would be impressed. What do you think it would have been? So I'm thinking, well, we've got Werner's, which is like a kind of a second-rate ginger soda, which I think is amazing. We have that. I'm going to say either something with maple, but you know I think maybe Vermont might get maple I think Vermont got maple they got the maple creamy have you heard of that? yeah I've heard of that oh my god it's pretty good it's fucking good for Michigan I would probably say the Detroit style pizza with frico on the like cheese on the outside I think it got something like that that would be the one I would probably pick I think the square pies with cheese on the side is probably the Michigan food I wish I could remember the Coney is not Michigan food maybe the Coney dog hit your radar whatever they voted for all I gotta say is if you're from Michigan and you're like, that was a terrible choice.

35:23It's like, okay, well then you can blame y 'all self because we got like hundreds of votes for each state. Yeah. Um, and then let's talk about the fast food burger showdown, which is highly entertaining. And I'm not going to spoil, uh, the, the show, but can we say like, who is in your top three? Totally. Like who is in your top three? So top three, if I remember accordingly was, uh, not necessarily in this order was in and out yeah shake shack and steak and shake of all places buddy these are like absolutely part of my rotation yeah they're great you know but you know steak and shake was a surprise to be in the top three i think that was the biggest surprise of them all because steak and shake i would argue may very well be one of if not the most underrated burger spot in the u.s simply because it's a dying thing like i don't know that they're gonna go out of business but like they're dwindling you know there's not many locations we had to you were in southern california you did like hike around where did i i think we had to go to california to get there and then we found out that there was one really far away from us in like dallas or something like that but um that's cool i i have one in my hometown in calamazoo michigan they're amazing so good and the shakes aren't bad either so i'm glad to hear that how was the production for that was that that's a lot of work that went of that video we push it man i mean you know we really people have no idea how much work goes into this enormous um you know i'll put i'll put it into perspective that one video was three days of uh was it three or four three or four days of filming across multiple states by the way across those three four days um and sorry actually prior to those three or four days was probably a one and a half to two weeks of pre-production as in like how many places do we go to what really is every burger place in america and how like because technically there are thousands right we can't visit thousands it'll be it'll be a four-hour video what's what's our so we had to define some lines um and then after that it was three and a half to four weeks of editing yeah because it's just like dude the amount of footage holy fuck so we're talking like a month and a half or one video a big production and and you you have a lot of crew on there you have a lot of team how big is your crew about so originally we had about 13 people on the team we've we've chosen to lean it up because it was just too many people to keep track of and there were just a lot of people not doing things oh okay yeah like or not doing enough you know what i mean like one one person just doing this one thing i'm like is that josh is that your decision when you start to lean your crew down a little yeah a combination a combination of my decision and also like some people were just like Like, it's a big, it is, if you're going to work for me, just know that you're not coming to, you're coming to work your ass off.

38:14Yeah. It just is what it is. Everybody's working their ass off. Don't come to me talking about how hard you're working. Like, everybody. Me, my director. Yeah. Everyone. It's, you know, we're building. And so, you know, some people, you know, it was too much for them, so we, you know, let them go because they're not enjoying it. And so I realized I'd rather have a leaner team that is willing to work harder, upload less, and collectively do something that we're all passionate about, that we all love. You got to be straightforward when you're hiring people. Yeah, I like having groups of people that are all fighting for the same thing.

38:47Does the algorithm bug me out in YouTube? I feel like it's like you put something up and then there's like this weird algorithm thing happening that doesn't perform. I mean, you get millions of views regardless, but you're not getting like 10 million for everything, right? Yeah, I mean, like, I don't know. It's, there's definitely levels to it. It depends on what application you're talking about, but YouTube, I think, is pretty good about it. Here's what I've learned about the algorithm. The algorithm is only a reflection of what people click on and watch. And YouTube has done the best job at making a really legitimate algorithm.

39:24And the simple reality is, if you're going to come up with an idea, do you think a hundred million people care about it truly gotta ask that question and like answer it as honestly as you can do people do a hundred million million people care about your chihuahua probably not right you may love that thing you may even be willing to jump in front of a car for that that's you though you got to be able to rip your biases away from what you make to look and see well to do how many people care right and fast food burgers is clearly indexing high. Yeah. Pick things that are as broad as possible. Start learning about what are the things that do well.

39:59Um, I mean, I'm not like the end all be all seeing eye, but like, let's look at, let's look at this. Not everyone cares about food, right? Like, yeah, no, it's true. Mr. Beast does things that everybody cares about. Throwing a Lamborghini in a gigantic shredder. Okay, cool. That's something that literally anybody on planet earth could click and watch giving away money or giving away money. Everyone kind of likes that. Everybody. What's the number one question when you're sitting in a room full of like a bunch of random dudes that have probably been drinking would you eat poop for a hundred million dollars it's like yeah jeff i probably would i probably would because i would yes you know a hundred million yeah hundred mil yeah hell yeah dude well how much you know and then the people get in and then it's like this fun conversation yeah okay well he just brought those to life he's like the modern day hyper high level um game show.

40:52And everybody loves a game show because it's about money, something everybody cares about. So anyway, long story short, you got to kind of like find your genre and see how broad it is. Food is more niche and we more people watch our show than just about any food show ever. No, it's it's true. And you're like the executive, the programmer of the Food Network, plus and parts of NBC, plus parts of Disney, plus plus HBO. I mean, you've got this audience that everyone covets in these in the places i just mentioned i think it's hard to do in in a in a corporate setting i don't blame food network or any of these well how deep can i do they pass on a josh wiseman show like back in the day um i don't think they passed on it they you know they they we had little conversations here and there that never i didn't they basically were trying to get me to come to them yeah and i was very much of like you know i don't want to be told remember what I said earlier, I don't want to be told what to do.

41:48And I think that what I was going to say a second ago was like, you know, it's very hard to be corporate and have all these layers and be able to creatively pivot aggressively. And a lot of the food ideas that I think will perform really well cannot go through a hyper bureaucratic system. They have to be very wide open, especially for how much the food audience space has changed. Yeah, it's the way you Babish, Laurent Dejeuner Doobie Doobop Like all these folks Are just like crushing it And changing the way We think about food media Like Real good On This Is Taste We ask guests about The discerning taste So Josh to close this interview Here's a little rapid fire Fast and furious taste check Are you ready?

42:30Yes The best breakfast Let me think Wait how long do I have to think Or do I just go? You're going Okay Bagging and cheese on A brioche bun I know it's not very New York But we're This is me Okay not New York. Yeah, bacon and cheese on brioche with a spicy mayo. Oh, mayo is the best. I was like, you're gonna say ketchup. I was like, we're out, we're done. Yeah, it might be a little ketchup in the mayo, but not on the sandwich. Love it. The best dessert. Best dessert, ooh. I would say, you know, honestly, simple chocolate chip cookie. Chewy, fudgy, salty. Birdies, they serve it on a plate. Yeah.

43:04That place in Austin. That's fire. Really great. Favorite American fast food chain? In-N-Out. Favorite cookbook of all time? Ooh. I would say, I can't remember her name, but it's a book called All About Brazing. Have you ever heard about this book? Completely. Molly Stevens. Yeah, Molly Stevens. Legendary. I love that you call it Molly. Molly is amazing. She's been on the show. She hosts a great podcast. Dude, she changed my life. Legitimately, with that book. Yeah. Because I'd already picked up a lot of skills as a kid, but I cooked at it through that entire book, and it made me like take all the skills that I had learned and made me realize this is why I learned these things.

43:49Technique. And it made me realize the power of technique. And if you have all the little building blocks, once you have that epiphany moment, that's when you're on your way to becoming a real master. Really cool that you said about Molly. I think she writes her cookbooks like you. She's very, very, very, very focused on testing and making sure it works. So cool. You should have her on your show. Would love to. Molly, hit me up. Your favorite recent cookbook discovery? You know what's kind of crazy? I haven't, like, read a cookbook in years. Buddy, you've been writing it. It's all good, man. Years.

44:21Is there one that, like, maybe is within reach? Yeah, you know, the most recent one that I really sat through and, like, went all the way through and went deep on was the Noma Guide to Fermentation. I've always been into fermentation, but it was cool to see the way that they approach it. It's a little bit more fine detailed, a little bit more Michelin, a little bit more, Or, oh, wait, why don't we do it in a jar? Why don't we just do it in a vacuum-sealed bag? I'm like, fuck, that's so good. Yeah, yeah. And they got the hand on the cover. I mean, come on. So good. And it was on the bear. I mean, it's a great one.

44:48They killed. All right. Your favorite New York City restaurant classic edition. Classic edition. Yeah, so nothing. We don't need to go new wave. I know you talked about. I mean, I love that you called out the Wilder guys and Contra. That actually might be classic, but one more. Russ and Daughters, because it just, when I take friends there, it just feels like New York I can hear Frank Sinatra in there you know what I mean even I know a lot of people are gonna probably judge that but like I don't know it's like my childhood you know I mean I grew up Jewish father my brother's Jewish like we go and we eat fucking yeah you know white fish and bagels it's amazing it's great favorite LA restaurant classic edition LA restaurant classic edition if it's not gonna be In-N-Out mmm all the delis are gone man yeah it's so sad And Cantor's isn't good, right?

45:38Yeah. Yeah. Once was. Once was, of course. Once was. You know, maybe old school Cantor's. Yeah, we'll go. If we wanted to go that route, sure. A few more, a couple more. The chef you would want to work under and learn from. Ooh. There are a lot. I would have said, you know, it's funny. We're kind of like, we're kind of friends now. We're Instagram friends now. But Rene Red Zappi for sure. Just because I like his tenacity. Yeah. And he builds, you know, he's built a universe, built a world around him like yourself. I see the comparisons. Favorite vegetable. Broccoli. Comes up like, you know, the guys who know know.

46:14That's the one. So good. It's great. Last one, favorite sandwich. Favorite sandwich. Patty melt, 100%. But it has to, and it's not a patty melt unless it has this, has to have fried onions on it. Oh, yeah, definitely. It can either be shoestring onions or it can be onion rings. I don't care. It just needs to be a onion that is deep fried. It has to have that sweetness. Josh Weisman, it's been a pleasure. Thanks for joining us, This is Taste. Thank you so much for having me.

46:45Wildly Dufresne, welcome to The Taste Podcast. Thanks very much. Excited to be here. Well, I had some great pie last night. I went over to your place, Stretch Pizzeria. I had a pie and a salad. And man, you're in the pizza business right now. We are. We are. It's a lot of fun, actually. Yeah. I mean, when you think about pizza in New York, I just have to start like before you became part of the community of pizza, where were your spots? Well, I mean, I grew up in New York City, so I've been eating pizza since since I was a little kid. And I have fond memories of childhood, you know, going to PS41 over on 11th Street and 6th Avenue.

47:22And there was a very early, one of the first Rays, famous Rays, famous original Rays. They all have those different incarnations. So there was one of those right on the corner. And so I have really fond memories actually of eating slices. But specifically for me there, it was the Sicilian. Then I went to Friends Seminary over on 16th and 3rd and right across the street from Friends. Was a place called Mariela's. And in hindsight, probably a bit of a sloppy, overdressed, over-sauced, over-cheese slice. Which you kind of take a little issue with, I think. Well, I think that there should be a pie for everyone, a slice for everyone.

48:01I think there should be a style for everyone. It's not the way I like to build a pie. But so those early memories are places like that growing up and using – I had to use that sort of archetypal classic New York slice as a stepping stone. But then, you know, New York has so much good pizza. You know, I think, and again, we're not here to rank it when I say, you know, Lindustry out in Brooklyn or Weeded or, you know, Upside, which I really like a lot. For a slice, Upside, at scale, they're killing it. I love Upside. Upside's great. Scars, really good. Yeah. You know, so those are some of the places that I think do great stuff.

48:44And then, you know, if you're going to have a whole pie, you know, Una, you got to talk about Una. Una's amazing. He's amazing. And, you know, technically not New York, but Ratsa is, again, a place that everybody should go to to understand sort of the high art of pizza. Yeah, Dan Richard in Jersey City. I'm going to have Dan on the show soon and his pie. I feel like there's some similarities between what I had at Stretch and what Dan Richard's doing there. What about Brooklyn? We haven't even hit L &B. We've got Titano's. Are you? Yeah, I mean, those are good spots, too. Again, that's why that's why New York is awesome, because there's this this this giant, giant pool or pond or lake of pizza boats floating around.

49:28And and hopefully what we're doing is a little bit different. And so there's room for us in that in that pond. Well, Wiley, I wanted to have you in definitely talk about WD 50, the restaurant you ran for 11 years in Lower East Side. super influential um lots of alumni we'll talk about molecular gastronomy that term which is interesting um but i want to get back into pizza first how did you decide you wanted to go pro with pizza because it probably started semi-pro were you doing it for friends and family were you ever doing it at other other restaurants uh it's even simpler than that uh you know the pandemic hit, uh, and we, we decamped, uh, my, my wife and our, our kids, uh, and my wife's younger sister and her family's, uh, decamped to our home up in Connecticut, um, that whatever it was third week in March, um, when everybody sort of took off, we headed up there.

50:25Um, and, and, and, you know, kids were work, you know, being homeschooled for lack of a better word. Uh, you You know, my wife and her sister were working from home. The donut shop had been put on pause for what now has become. And, you know, it's now gone. Oh, man. I didn't realize it was gone. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You say never to come back? Well, at that location is gone. I mean, I should not say never to come back. I mean, I hope not. They're pretty great. Well, I mean, you get a donut if you come to Stretch. Oh, cool. They were on the dessert menu last night, actually. But so really like looking back on my phone at photographs and stuff, the end of March, the very first couple weeks of April, I was in the basement.

51:09You know, there's eight of us. We're an eight top as I affectionately referred to us up at our home. And I seemed like the best choice for feeding the eight top of the people that were there. You were qualified. Yeah. But, you know, again, we ended up being up there for many, many, many months. And so everybody, you know, kicked in and helped cook. But I tried to carry the load. And so I was in the basement early on and looking around and thinking, what am I going to make for dinner? What am I going to make for dinner? And I had done some work for Breville previously that year in exchange for the work rather than take some financials.

51:48I took some equipment. I took an espresso machine, which I immediately put into play. They really are the best home espresso machines. I have two. They're super good. They're awesome. They are awesome. And I immediately put that into service in our home. But I had the Breville Pizzaiolo. I looked up, oh, wow, there's the pizza oven. Ah, you had the Breville pizza oven. And I'd never used it. It was still sitting unused in a box. And I thought to myself, well, I'm cooking for people literally from 4 to 49. What's a thing? What's a foodstuff that is effective across that? You know, one of them is a vegetarian.

52:19There's like this pizza. Pizza's perfect, right? I'll make a pizza. Now, there's a big caveat there. Like, I'd never really made pizza. No, sure. Like, I've owned restaurants. I work in restaurants where, hey, let's have pizza for a family meal tonight or this or that. And, like, I certainly understand how to make tomato sauce and the topping. And you made bread, I would imagine. Not really. Not really. I had always been, you know, bread is, it's the super simple things that are the most intimidating. So it wasn't something, I had staff under me that could do it. I'm sure Stupac could make some bread Sure, when I worked for Jean-Georges There was an entire pastry department That was in charge of breaking the bread And so I'd Been bread pizza adjacent My whole career But I didn't actually know how to make pizza So I said to myself Let's make pizza And like everybody, what do you do when you don't know how to Make pizza dough?

53:15You Google it And so Literally later that day I'm on the King Arthur baking site and they have like seven different recipes for pizza dough. And to be honest, King Arthur is a great, a great source for, for data. So I just started trying to, I figured I had to figure out, well, what kind of pizza do I want to make? Well, what am I? Yeah, that's a good question. Like, let's stop there. So you have options, right? Because with this oven, I'm understandable. Like you could go super high temp with it, right? So you could do a quick pizza or you could do like a low, a slower rise pizza too, right? You could, but I figured since I'm not that well-versed in it, why don't I pick a pizza that I have some experience eating to judge it against?

54:00So growing up in New York, eating a New York-style, you know, sliced joint kind of pie. Bread oven, like kind of that 450. Deck oven pie. Yeah, it was exactly what I'd had the most of. So I was like, I will at least gauge my own efforts against that in the vacuum that I'm, I'm living in right now. Cause I can't make a pizza today and run to, you know, run to scars tomorrow and see how I measured up. Cause we're, we're all, you know, isolated up in, in, in where we are. And so, um, so I started looking for New York style pizza dough and, um, you know, I, it became clear that, that we weren't going back anytime soon and things were going to change.

54:43And so above and beyond feeding my family, my donut shop was really on pause. And so what was I going to do to sort of stay interested and enthused, excited about what I love to do, which is cook, was to just go, kind of go down this pizza rabbit hole. So I immediately started like, okay, I'm going to, not only going to make pizza tonight, I'm going to teach myself how to make pizzas. Wow. Two things that I decided I wanted to get really good at during the pandemic was making pizza and making rice. Oh, well, okay. We'll go to the rice. But so let me ask you, we've all had this journey. Like I'm going to teach myself how to do something.

55:21I would love to know the resources. Were you like going straight to a cookbook? Were you thinking, I mean, we said King Arthur's recipes are dope. Was there a way that you are kind of going to educate yourself on pizza? I said the recipes are a starting point and their recipes are a great starting point. And they're resources for flour and equipment. and it is great. And so I just, I got my hand, I was like, I went down, I went all in. And like, I started ordering books. I started getting on every sort of online sort of chat room group of pizzamaking.com, et cetera. And I just started to literally devour all the information I could about pizza making.

56:01And so I just started making pizza, making pizza, making pizza. And we started having pizza once a week. Then we started having pizza twice a week. And, you know, I made somewhere between 600 and 700 pizzas over the course of the pandemic, which sounds like a lot. But, I mean, you know, there are places that make that many pizzas in one day. So the Breville got some work. The Breville has seen some miles. Yeah, yeah. The Breville has seen some miles. Same one you have up there still? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, that's good. And so it was interesting because I began to make, you know, have to try to figure out how to make a New York-style pizza in a 12-inch round.

56:35which is not something you see a lot of. You don't see New York-style pizzas in miniature like that. They're typically 18, 20 inches, and they're typically slices. They're typically something that go in the oven twice. You go out to Hoboken, it's like 24. Yeah. Hoboken has big slices. That's true. Those are fun. Those are fun, yeah. So I just got really into it. I got really, really into it. And then as the, you know, the fog of the pandemic began to lift and as it began to be time to think about what's next. And it seemed pretty clear that the donut shop wasn't going to return. And I love working in restaurants.

57:17I really do. And I wanted to get back in the game. And I had a couple other opportunities that – one that started before the pandemic, one that started during. and they both fell through. No way. Can you say broadly, were they closer to Alder and WD-50 or were they more single topic? Diner. You were going to do a diner, interesting. I was going to do a diner, yeah. I'm a diner fan. Wow. I'm sure that will maybe happen in the future. Who knows? I hope so because I love diners and the world needs more of them. But so it became time to come back and pre-pandemic, I'd had some conversations with Gotti, the owner of Bread's Bakery, Gotti Palais.

58:03And I live right around the corner from there. Oh, my God. I mean, the babka is like world-class. It's like the number one. Agreed. Yeah. And, you know, from my apartment to Bread's is about 45 seconds if you make the light, you know. And so we had had conversations pre-pandemic about trying to figure out a way to just do a collaboration, have me come in and do something and collaborate. And we tried a couple different things. One was maybe a donut idea. One was maybe something around eggs. And nothing fit, nothing gelled. And then the pandemic hit and we went our separate ways. And then we were coming back and it was time to think about what's next.

58:39And so I went over to God and I said, hey, I have an idea about how we could collaborate. Why don't we do a pizza? And he's like, well, you don't know how to make pizza. Oh, shit. And I said, hold on. And again, I live right around the corner. So I went home. Oh. I made him a everything bagel pizza, brought it right back. I was like, here it is. And he was like, oh, that's actually pretty good. I waited like two days and I said, hey, Gotti, I want to, I'm serious. Like I want to do, is there a way we can do a pop-up here? We can do a pizza pop-up. And he's like, nah, I don't know. And so I made him another pizza.

59:10You kept pushing. I made him another pizza and he was like, okay. And so we did like a six-month pop-up there that went well and we enjoyed each other's company. And we, you know, and we said we'd like to advance this further down the line. And we got a group of folks together and out of that stretch was born. So, you know, it's the pandemic was awful and horrible. And there were so many, so many terrible, sad stories. But, you know, I will say for me that pizza saved me. Pizza saved me during the pandemic because it fed my brain and it fed my family. And it was something that I got really, really excited about.

59:48and uh and i i just you know i i tend to go kind of deep in a subject and pizza was well perfect for it it is perfect and and i was going to segue to to kind of the execution of your pizzas because clearly you weren't going to just do something that was a classic this or classic that yes you have a classic pie on the top of your menu but i want to get into what you're doing at stretch pizza, there seems to be a playfulness, obviously, but also an homage to New York, an homage to Jewish food, an homage to Eastern European food, even like it seems like the the canvas was blank when you started thinking about your menu development.

1:00:27How did you craft these these pies when you're writing your menu and figuring out what stretch would be? I mean, the the the pies come from all over. There are again, it's I think I think you have to stand. behind your plain pie. That has to, like, you have to nail the plain pie. 100%. If you can't hit that, then I think that's a big issue. So, of course, we wanted to, we're trying to make, like, whatever a New York slice is, whatever that memory is, whether it was yesterday while walking your dog or 25 years ago with your dad or all of those things. Like, I want you to eat that slice, and I want it to sort of trip that moment.

1:01:10But then from there, we wanted to to to sort of find inspiration everywhere. Like, yeah, I love New York. I grew up in New York. And so there are there, you know, the old town is a nod to the old town bar, which is amazing. You know, not only is it also as close to my house as Bread's Bakery, but if you went there every Friday and I went out to a friend seminary in high school, if you went there every Friday at five o 'clock, you'd see Mr. Schwartz, the Latin teacher sitting at the end of the bar. And you'd see the ice in the urinals were still there. Yeah, the ice. I mean, again, the urinals are special there.

1:01:41That's special. Maybe we shouldn't go into that too much. But but like it was about, you know, my my Latin teacher was there every Friday. And once you were old enough to go in there, you could sit and have a beer with Mr. Schwartz. And I've been you know, it's in the cold open of Letterman for all those years. And like it's it's a neighborhood institution and it's famous for its burger and its urinal. And yeah, but you know what's really good there that no one knows is there is is a grilled cheese sandwich. and it's sauteed mushrooms and mustard cheese on pumpernickel bread. And that's a great sandwich that nobody knows or talks about there.

1:02:14You know, and it's awesome. Freedom for Munster. I mean, Munster doesn't get enough love as a melting cheese. As a melting cheese. As a melting cheese. It's a great cheese. So that's a pizza on our menu. It's that grilled cheese sandwich broken down. There's mustard cheese, sauteed mushrooms, and these really boldly flavored pumpernickel breadcrumbs that we put on there. And then, you know, there's other pies that are just, you know, Oh, the yolks on you is a riff on a classic French salad of, you know, just grilled asparagus in a vinaigrette with hard-boiled egg yolks and egg whites sprinkled on top.

1:02:45Classic French flavor pairings. And so we built a pie off of that. And that will be a spring into summer pie? Are you going to keep it going? No. Asparagus will go out of season soon. And so we'll move on. But the idea, you know, the yolks piped onto that is a bit of our, you know, a bit of technique from our WD-50 days past. And, you know, the plowman is just a classic. That's what I had last night. The plowman's lunch. You know, that was an interesting sort of bit of trivia created by the cheese board in England. And the classic plowman's lunch of, you know, a crusty bread with horseradish, maybe some smoked cheddar, some pickled red onions.

1:03:22And so we built a pie off of that. So we're trying to use all sorts of places for inspiration, for fun. The odd father is just, again, zucchini and eggplant on a pie. That's nothing new, but how can we do it in a way that's a little bit different? So, you know, we smoke the eggplant in-house. We roast the zucchini in the oven, and we make a puree of the smoked eggplant. But the whole thing's pretty soft, and it needed some crunch. So we took the bits from tempura. When they fry tempura, you get all those little bits that flow to the top. Oh, yeah, definitely. The best part about tempura is at the end of it.

1:03:54The crunchy bits. So we took those and we tossed them in olive oil and we put classic like progresso seasoning, you know, dried oregano, basil, marjoram, thyme. Italian spice, yeah. So we do Italian spice tempura flakes. So you've got cultures coming together and texture. And so, you know, much like what we've always done, sky's the limit in a way in terms of flavors. As long as they make sense, you look for bitter, sweet, salty, sour, umami. Now tell me, are there some that aren't on the board right now or on the menu that you're like workshopping that maybe we could talk about that or maybe ones that are like halfway there?

1:04:30I'd love to hear about your process. I mean there's a bunch of like how do you take a croque monsieur and turn that into a pizza? This is so fun. I love this. How do you take French onion soup and turn that into a pizza? Oh my god. You know, what are things that you can do like that that have delicious – what are classic flavor pairing that would be good on a pizza? So what are things that maybe people might not think would work on a pizza? And it extends to your menu, too. I had the bitter greens and the vinegar potato chip salad. Cool. Cool idea. Again, it's just fun. You know, it was inspired by Mark Ladner.

1:05:08He had a potato chip salad in the Del Posto cookbook. I was like, that's really clever. I also had the, you know, you've been to Ernesto's, I assume, downtown. and he does this amazing plate of sliced ham and potato chips. It's like ham and potato chips and ham and potato. And it's huge and it's like comical. You're like, oh my God, this is like, why didn't I think of that? This is so cool. My friend, who is it? Oh, it's my friend, Anna Heasel. She wants to write a potato chip cookbook. I feel like potato chips is a cookbook. It really is a great ingredient. Yeah, potato chips on a sandwich, potato chips on a burger, potato chips on a hot dog.

1:05:43Like, yeah, potato chips on. So, but the idea there was if we take salt, if we make our own, we buy, we buy potato chips from Rick Bishop at the green market who has amazing, you know, makes amazing kettle chips. Yeah. Out of German butter balls and Kennebec potatoes. And they're spectacular. We take them and then we have our own blend of vinegar powder, citric acids that, that to make our own salt and vinegar chip. Yeah. Which is as an intensity that I've, I just right away was like, you're hitting it right on the, right on the nose. It's got to be super punchy, right? Salt and vinegar chips should almost like make you grab your beer right away.

1:06:20And so we mix that with a salad that's a mix of mizuna and frise and a bunch of fresh herbs and radishes. And we dress all those greens with a ton of olive oil. And then so the vinegar comes from the chip. So there's no actual, it's not dressed. There's no water to make the chip soggy. But the vinegar is powdered. It's from the powder. So that salad could sit on the table for your entire meal and not get soggy. Which is such a good point. When you're doing pizza, there's definitely like a slice, then the next thing, then the slice. You're kind of going back and forth. So things do actually sit on the table longer than other styles of dining.

1:07:00Yeah, and that's the way it is at stress. It's like you order food and it kind of comes out as it's prepared. I mean, if you want us to course it, we're happy to do that. But it's also like it doesn't matter if you still have Caesar salad on the table when your pies come. because salad on a pizza is also delicious. Man, let me ask you about last night. Like, what's service like opening a restaurant in New York City on Park Avenue? You've got a lot of attention. What's it like, like, running? This is, like, what, your first month? Yeah, I think today is day, today will be day 25, I think. So we're not even open a full month yet.

1:07:30Right, right. What's that, what's going, what's going through your mind? I mean, it's really, like, I really, really, really missed working in restaurants. You know, it's been eight years since I had a restaurant. And so. Alder was eight years ago? Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Cool restaurant, by the way. Thank you. Enjoyed it. Thank you. I went a few times. Yeah, me too. Yeah. Glad you did. It's, it's, it was, it was just, I really like it. I like, I like making, I like cooking a lot. I like working in restaurants a lot. I like talking to customers a lot. I like making people happy. I like, I really, I'm having a lot of fun as long as you folks are having fun on the other, on the other end.

1:08:08And I think that we're making a solid pie. And that's, you know, that's the important part is that we continue to try to make a better pie today than we did tomorrow. And prep is pretty intense with these pies. You're just talking through these, the various ones that are in the menu now. But this is not like a typical pizza shop where you can roll in at like 10 and do the prep then or eight, nine. I mean we're trying not to make it too onerous. I mean, again, having done this for almost 30 years now, you get a little bit better at it over the years. and hopefully you get a little bit smarter and you're able to understand how to use, you know, equipment and technology and things like that.

1:08:43But we're not in it. It's not too bad. It's not too bad. Okay. Well, I want to segue to WD-50 because you closed on November 30th, 2014. And, you know, you've been operating for over 11 years, 12 years around that. And this was an influential restaurant beyond its years. I mean, it produced folks like Mario Carbone, Christina Tosi, Malcolm Livingston, Alex Tupac, Sam Mason, and many others who we maybe don't even know about on the podcast, but who are important in all cities in America and beyond. First question about WD is like when you're reflecting at that, when you're up in your house during the pandemic, you're thinking about because everyone was reflecting on life then.

1:09:23It was a very crazy time. What do you think about most about that time running WD50? I mean, I think about the people, the people I worked with. Those people were all, you know, very special to me. They were—so many of them are wonderful and are still wonderful. Yeah, right. But, you know, I find myself thinking about those people and wondering where some of them are and reaching out to them constantly. And there are various groups of mine I do keep in a lot of touch with. I mean, you sat next to one of my dear friends last night, Francis Durby. Francis Durby, exactly. Who's, you know, was on the opening team and who's, you know, become a great, great friend.

1:10:06And I think of the people, you know. I think of, you know, I feel like we set out, we accomplished what we set out to do. And so I feel okay that that part came, like it went full circle. And so I feel okay about it. But I miss those people. I miss being in there. Like I had the best office in the world. That kitchen was wonderful. You know what I mean? It was beautiful. I had, you know, I look back and there's not a lot I would have changed about how we laid it out. You know, my father and I spent a long time thinking about how to build that place. And I think that we got most of it right, which is something I'm very proud of and feel fortunate to.

1:10:49But, you know, I miss all those folks. Down on Clinton Street, you know, legendary space, absolutely like just one of one. And I just wonder, you know, menu development, are you missing the – I know the people is first and foremost, but like just the cooking itself. Do you miss that part? Do you miss the actually doing service at a WD-50? I mean I think that there's still, you know, with Alder, with donuts, with pizza, there's still an opportunity to think that way, to think critically and creatively. And that's what we do. Not in a tasting menu format though. Just not in a tasting menu format.

1:11:23You know, we think critically, we think creatively, we don't think in a tasty menu format. I will say, you know, if somebody said, let's not talk about the finances, let's not worry about it, let's just, you know, sky's the limit, would you go back to doing that? That would be tough for me. I mean, those, you know, that's a grind. It's a real grind. There was a pressure, you know, you felt the pressure to constantly come up with a new thing all the time, all the time. And some of those ideas, techniques, things would take months to figure out. And so the idea of like, well, how come we don't change the menu more often, do this more?

1:12:01Because it's hard to come up with new stuff. It's hard to be unique, you know, super quick. And, you know, how to figure out how to deep fry hollandaise. I mean, it's like a magician doesn't change the magic show every day. I don't think so. I don't think so. If they do, you know, again, I'm not here to criticize restaurants to change your menu every day. No, no, you're not. But they're just kind of moving our ingredients around on a board. You're like shuffling the cards and saying we cooked a duck with a rhubarb today. Let's cook the bass with the rhubarb tomorrow and the duck with the turnips and the bass.

1:12:34You know, you're moving things around and doing wonderful, delicious, exciting things. But like when what we were trying to do was it was fun, but it was, you know, it was it was hard. And it felt like at times it was a special time, but there was this sort of space race between like a group of restaurants around the world that were always trying to out. Bully, Alinea, I'll name a few more if you want. Sure. Muguritz, the Bat Duck. There was like this space race. We were all pushing and pushing. And let's see, you know, the Internet was kind of early in terms of like, hey, what are these guys up to?

1:13:05Let me see, you know. And so it was fun, but it also – there was a pressure that – some of that I don't necessarily miss. But the people, the restaurant, the space. Yeah, I mean – I also – I'm not so sure, too, if people are still up for that giant slog of a meal anymore. It's interesting. You know, AutoMix, I think about number two on Pete Wells' latest list of 100 in New York. I mean, AutoMix is – it's a long meal. It's true and a great meal. Absolutely. And a great meal. And so, yeah, perhaps I'm wrong. But no, I don't want to. I don't want to. Well, it's also fun to have a place that people want to come to maybe once a week versus maybe once a year.

1:13:48Like I'm enjoying that. I'm enjoying, I'm enjoying, you know, a thing where, where it's not just, you know, we've had people that have already been in three times, you know, and I, and we've been open not even four weeks. And so that's, that's different, but that's fun too. And it's fun to be a neighborhood spot that people feel like let's roll in there. Let's talk about back at WD-50. There was a term called molecular gastronomy. It's kind of harsh right now to even think about that term. It's so clunky, but it says something about the food. I mean, I don't know how you feel about that term. You certainly didn't coin that term.

1:14:23I don't think you were saying it all the time. But where does that style of cooking land today? Are there people doing that? Well, that term is a bit misleading. I agree fully. Because it's a school, it's a type of scientific study. It would be like saying, what type of cooking do you do? Biology. That's weird. You know, you can't cook. They're not the same. So molecular gastronomists are scientists studying what happens to our food as we cook it. And chefs are over here preparing food. And so they have a codependence on each other. the chef would love to know the information that the molecular gastronomist has about what they're doing and the molecular gastronomist would love to know how we're cooking to yeah they have a they have subjects to study so we have this wonderful relationship with each other but to say i'm a molecular gastronomist is is no more correct than to call the molecular gastronomist a chef it's not fair in either direction it's also does like you said it's clunky it's not delicious like hey honey you want to go to dinner night should we go have thai should we have Italian or molecular gastronomy?

1:15:30Like we're never, it's never going to happen. It's never going to happen. No one's ever going to say, yeah, let's go have molecular gastronomy. That being said, in my youth, I would get up on my soapbox and I would stop my feet about it. But at this point, when you use that term, people know the kind of food you make or made. And so it's, I don't mind anymore. I don't mind it. It's, and, and what did we go for? We went from molecular gastronomy to, to, to modernist cuisine. Is that any better? Yeah. There was like the idea of the edge cuisine. was in there. Does that sound any more delicious? Not really.

1:15:59So let's just stick with molecular gastronomy. That's fine. But, you know, and then people say, well, thank God, you know, WD-50's closed and molecular gastronomy, we're finally putting it to bed. Wait, people say that? It's kind of fucked up. We're putting it to bed. Okay. You know, we can finally move on from this. And unfortunately, you know, we may have lost the battle because we're closed, but molecular gastronomy won the war. We're everywhere. Yeah. It's everywhere. It's everywhere. Yeah. Everywhere that you go to eat, some of the things that myself and my contemporaries at the time. Xanthan gum is selling out on Amazon.

1:16:34We added to the canon. You know, we contributed to the body of work. We left something there that's never going away. And xanthan gum is an excellent example. So we won. You know, I hate to say it, but we won. It's in there. All the restaurants that you go to are in some way, shape, or form using some of the techniques or some of the technology, some of the equipment, some of the ingredients that people like myself and all those other chefs you mentioned earlier brought into the cooking. Oh, my God. I mean, look at, like, CPG. Like, look at—you can buy sous vide chicken, like, anywhere now. It's, like, sold in five or seven different brands.

1:17:13I go to—do you have egg bites at Starbucks? Yeah. Because that's—they're all made sous vide. Right, right. So there you go. Yeah, no. Like, it's so pervasive that it's not even— I hate to say it to the haters, but it's, there's no argument to be had. They, there's nothing. We won. Yeah. We won. Our stuff is out there. Um, but you know, like the being part of like all the first generation, we were kind of like, so excited. We were doing something new and different. So we were, there was a little bit of like, Hey, look what we're doing. Look what we can do. Isn't this awesome. And that's maybe where we got ourselves in trouble because gen, gen two, Gen 3, Gen 4 are like, they're not talking about it.

1:17:53They're just putting the, they're not saying, hey, we discovered xanthan gum and it's pretty neat. They're just putting it in there and you're, and you're not even noticing it, but the result of the xanthan gum and what it can do to make your meal, there's any number of ways it can contribute to your meal. But you know what I mean? They're not, we're not, people are, are, are being less showy about it, which is smart. We were, and we weren't trying to be showy. We were just excited. You were excited. And I think, I think the perception too, was just looking at the cost of the meal and usually these big ideas with quote unquote microbiology were happening in tasting format and some would say they were not approachable to the average diner.

1:18:28But obviously there was a reason the cost structure was set up that way because that's how you make it happen when you're with this excitement. You have a requirement, a financial requirement to do a tasting menu, right? Yeah, I mean just do you have any idea how much R &D goes into coming up with all this stuff? Great point. Where is that supposed to get Right. You know, you have to like there's a lot that goes on. And again, I don't I don't want to complain about you're not. No, no, no. People who are complaining about conversation about a period that's super influential compared to punk rock in 78 in New York City.

1:19:05This is the moment when food changed for everyone. Downtown New York and in Spain and in France and in London. Super important. Yeah. And I just feel lucky that we were we added to the conversation. That's it. You know, I feel very proud of the crew and the team, and we added to the dialogue. Do you get together with some of the guys, like Malcolm or Alex Stupak or any of these guys? Do you guys have reunions for WD-50 at all? We don't. You know, we don't. Maybe we should have a reunion. I mean, we did a 10-year anniversary, and that was pretty awesome. I invited everybody that had worked for me that had gone on and had, you know, their own restaurant or was working somewhere, and we were still open at the time, and they came and we did a 10-year anniversary dinner at WD-50, and that was pretty fun.

1:19:52So that was cool. I have that menu on the wall in my house that everybody signed. But I try to keep up with a bunch of them sort of, you know, from far away. Unfortunately, it's getting easier to reach out to people from far away, so you have to make less of an effort. I don't love this bit of technology for that. You don't pick up the phone and have like a nice or write a letter. I mean, food editorial people out there do this story. I mean, we could do it, I guess, at Taste, but it's not really our domain. but like get the reunion together, do the photo shoot. Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of great people.

1:20:19And I love, like I said, they all mean the world to me and I love them and I talk to them. Some of them, you know, like Alex, I saw Alex last week and I saw Francis last night and, you know, Sam came for dinner and a bunch of the guys, you know, our bar program at Stretch is run by a guy that worked for me at Alder. So there's a few people out there that I stay in touch with. A few more questions about New York. Just in general, I want to ask you as a New Yorker, some restaurants that you really are loving right now. I feel like this is a great time. We're having a lot of our listeners coming to New York to visit this spring and summer.

1:20:53Where should we be going? Well, I mean, I think some places that I've been to that I love, I had a great meal at Teresi recently. I have to say that was super fun and delicious. Top of their game, Three Stars New York Times. Rich was on the show. Definitely one of the hotter restaurants of the last five years in New York. And just super delicious. Absolutely. You know what I mean? And great. The space, you know, the puck building is an awesome, cool building. Yeah. As a New Yorker, you must have been really excited to see a restaurant like that in that space. Oh, my God. I mean, we had we rented out the puck building in high school for our senior year party.

1:21:31Yeah. They let us have kegs in there. We were like 16 year olds having kegs in the puck in what is now REI when it used to be an event space. I was I was like, this is amazing. So good. This is so cool. Joji, the sushi place, you know, Danielle's sushi spot in Grand Central, which is, I just had a great meal there. That was a lot of fun. I love, you know, sushi, Japanese sushi. Shuko's always a spot I would say go to. I want to go to Misha, you know, Alex, Stupak's new place. I'm excited to go there. I'd love to try to get into Yoshino for sushi. I haven't been there, but that looks. Yeah, Yoshino looks cool.

1:22:07I'm going to Misha as well. I'm going to have Alex in the show soon. Kono, I would love to check out. I've secretly, it's now no longer a secret because I'm going to say it right now, I've always wanted to have a yakitori spot. Yeah. I think that yakitori is really neat, and I think that our approach to yakitori would be a fun twist. Well, you've clearly thought about it a lot. I mean, it's leaking into the pizza realm, so clearly you've thought about, yeah. Yeah, yakitori is super cool, super fun. S &P I live right down the block from S &P Again I'm a diner I'm a diner lover I loved what it was I love what they've turned it into I think that's a super fun spot to go check out It's amazing how they've transformed that space Fully like Complete rethink without actually changing the space It's just that's really hard Yeah I mean That's fun I used to love going to sit at the counter There and having some liverwurst You know what I mean That was my dad's, that was his sandwich right there.

1:23:05Liverwurst? Liverwurst. So good. That's like one of the most underappreciated things. Liverwurst? Yes. Let's go there. I mean, when you think of Liverwurst, is there a brand? Do you, do you, I mean, we get Oscar Mayer in the Midwest, which is not the brand I would pick probably, but is there like a local brand? You know who makes the best Liverwurst? Let's go. Gabrielle Kreuter. Oh, yeah. Go up there and ask him for some under the table, hand you a tube in the gold, in the gold wrapper, just like the old Jimmy Dean. Yeah. In the gold. I mean, his liverwurst is no joke. It's when it's good, it hits.

1:23:40And do you have it just on like a nice crusty bread or do you have it on crackers? Yeah. Yeah. Or just on my hands and rubbing. Yeah. I mean. Liverwurst is one of those things. I think I have to eat it alone. It definitely has. It's so good. Give me one more. I think you probably have one more spot. I mean, Naru. I want to go check out Naru. I mean, I think it's really cool what's going on at Rock Center. I think that's a pretty neat—everything up there is pretty wild. I'm sure you were approached. Did you talk to them about some stuff? You know, that probably all happened when maybe some of our diner stuff was or wasn't going to happen.

1:24:14Yeah, wasn't quite in the cards. So it wasn't in the cards. But I think, like, what they're doing up there at Rock Center is really cool and pretty neat. and, you know. Well, as a New Yorker, you can say that in a different way than I can. I mean, I've been here 20 years, but you've been here the whole time. And like, that's a really important part of New York and having it be a full of like Claire's Boutique style, like Chosky shops and not really great food in Subway before and now having, you know, I got to give us some mesas there, like great, great falafels. I love some mesas. Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of great stuff up there.

1:24:48Yeah. And I just think it's cool that that, I mean, Rock Center deserves. world-class food. Yes. And again, not to sort of speak ill of the dead in terms of the restaurants that were there and they're gone. And, you know, Ed Brown did a great, great restaurant down there, the Sea Grill. And so there was... Back in the day, sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm not trying to say... I'm just saying in general, when you're walking the corridors, in like 2008, it wasn't... No. And it's nice to see like that whole... There's something for everyone in there. Like you said, you can walk the corridors. Yeah. There's all that stuff down there.

1:25:21and then on the Concord, there's like, that's a, you can spend a couple days just moving through Rock Center and the food there, and I think it's pretty neat. Last couple questions. I have to ask you just about cookbooks because you clearly are a student of the game. You ordered all those pizza cookbooks up to your Connecticut home, but tell me exactly what are you liking right now with cookbooks? Do you have any new titles? I'm sure you hit up Kitchen Arts and Letters once in a while. That is one of my favorite spots to go to. They mention you. Whenever we have Madden on the show, he always mentions you.

1:25:54He always does. That's a special place. Kitchen Arts is a special place and holds a special place in my heart. I mean, I spent every extra penny I had for the first 20 years of my life as a cook there. And more than that, you know, it's a bookstore, but they treat you like you've gone to a wonderful, bespoke library. They let you come in. They let you sit there. They let you read. They ask if they can bring you books to read. Like they there's nowhere on earth that has that group of people that care so much about their subject and treat you person X, nobody of note. Like my first 200 visits there, I was nobody.

1:26:39And yet I still got the same attention. Oh, yeah. You know, and so so that's that's always a special place for me. Um, but, but that being said, yeah, I mean, you know, what, what I'm trying, you know, there's pizza books. I'm reading a lot of pizza books still, you know, I still, I think like Dan Richard's book, Joy of Pizzas is, is an amazing book. I gave it one to each of my staff. It's really, it's an awesome book. Um, I, I think that, uh, the pizza Bible is a great book that I go to Tony Gemignani's book. You know, he's, he's sort of a seminal American pizza. Did you consult with Tony? No.

1:27:14I feel like I don't think Tony knows who I am. But I feel like Tony gets he's like a whisperer. I know some folks in my life who run pizza and they talk to Tony and it's yeah. Yeah. I mean, I don't know Tony at all. So but but the book is is great. You know, that that's the problem with pizza is that there's not a lot of great academic books about pizza. And that might sound weird. People like, of course, he wants an academic book. Right. He's looking to take the soul out of pizza making. But there needs to be more books about what happens to pizza as it's made because there's a lot to be learned.

1:27:58But, you know, there's a great book. Raymond Calville wrote a book called The Taste of Bread. And it's a seminal book in terms of understanding how bread is made. And there's this ongoing argument of is pizza bread or not? And there's a lot of people that say no, but I think there's really no argument. Pizza is bread. A hundred percent. And if you go up to FNF in Carroll Gardens, my old neighborhood, I mean, they think of their pie as bread. Yeah. Well, that's good pizza. That's damn good pizza. That's good pizza. Love those guys. Those guys are great. I love that place. Yeah. It's super cool.

1:28:30I mean, that whole run of what they've built right there. I know. I mean. It's awesome. For me, it's L &B. I should have put them on the list, too. Those guys are awesome. Yeah, they are awesome. I should have. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Sorry, Franks. I love you guys. I swear. Their pies are outstanding. I think it's like, for me, it's L &B for number one, controversial take. And then F &F is number two. That's my— L &B is controversial because there are those that question the square supremacy these days. Really? So the square—we can go there. We're a little deep in this interview. I feel like it's the square, but I think it's the sauce is what people really, really have a problem with.

1:29:05I don't know if you have any thoughts if you've been there recently or even know it. L &B is like more of a childhood. Like, you know, like I almost don't want to go back with my critical pizza lens and have it not, you know, have it somehow not be what I remembered it, maybe remembered it as. Yeah. Fair, fair, diplomatic. I appreciate that, Wiley.

1:29:27But as we work on a square, as we work on trying to develop some grandma squares for stretch. I saw a little thing at Francis's, a little on a napkin. And I saw a little square there. It wasn't on the menu. Then I was like, I was thinking as I looked at the menu, this isn't there. Okay, so you're working. I'm sorry. I should have sent you some grandma. Come back tomorrow. All good. No, grandma is, and I think actually what they're doing up at FNF with their squares is pretty terrific. That's, and what Brooks Headley's doing with focaccia. That's, to me, is the game. Brooks makes a really good focaccia.

1:30:00Yeah. A really, really, really good focaccia. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, you know, as we get back to books again, I go back and forth between like looking for academic stuff that can give me answers. You know, like I said, Calvo's book, Advanced Bread and Pastry is like a huge and phone book sized. If anybody out there knows what a phone book is. No, that answer is absolutely not. Yeah. That's a really, again, it's a book that's very interesting about bread and making bread and understanding how to mix dough. And so, you know, again, as we, for me, there's the two parts to pizza, right? There's the dough and getting better at making the dough.

1:30:39And then there's the stuff on the top. And how do we, so there are different books that I go to for the dough and there are different books that go to for the top. And so, you know, we're going to the top and you're looking for inspiration, all of the Otto Lange books. And they're, you know, he's like a master of vegetable cookery and what, you know, flavor combinations and unusual spices. Oh, yeah. mixes and rubs. Also a master of rice. Yeah. That guy's rice recipes are the best. Yeah. I agree with that. I agree with that. So any of his books I think are great. You know, as you, right now, we're seeing a huge seasonal change.

1:31:11You know, the next three weeks at the market are going to be seismic in a good way as things begin to pop. And then we'll have a good thing and then it'll be seismic again in the fall, you know, and that's, and that's super fun. So his books are great. And then, you know, a lot of like other creative people like the Wild Air guys, you know, their cookbook's awesome. It's a very serious cookbook. It's a fun book. But it's not serious at all. But those guys do a great job of taking like a green market approach and applying like they're two guys that are two of the most well-traveled, well-worked guys out there, period.

1:31:48Hard stop. So smart. Such good cooks. But they have a sense of humor. They're a lot of fun. That book's a great source of inspiration. Richard Blaze, you know, try this at home. Like, again, a really thoughtful, clever guy. We published that book, I think, like back, like that's like 12 years old or something. That's a great, that's a great book. That's good. And Richard's a really clever guy. And again, a guy, I mean, what he's doing now with the English restaurant that he just opened out there. And I had a great meal at his steakhouse. And again, I think Richard takes, has a respect for traditional cooking, but also was looking to march it forward.

1:32:20I mean, he probably is the current molecular gastronomy ambassador of America in many ways. Yeah. I mean, he has so much TV exposure. Yeah. He's pushing those ideas forward. But yeah, he's a face in many ways and in a good way. But I think that that book is one I go back to. Like, how is Richard thinking about this or doing that in fun, approachable ways? Because, you know, I just I think those those are good, good things. I always look to my old friends in Spain. You know, I have a lot of cookbooks. I have like somewhere around 1 ,600 cookbooks. Are they all in your home or do you have them in storage as well?

1:32:59I can't talk about that. I don't want my wife to know where they're all. I'm sure. There's a lot of them at home and then there are a few in storage. Yeah, that's cool. I, you know, as I go back to old books that I've been looking at a lot over the years And then again, I'm trying to constantly find new books. I'm always looking for stuff on the subject of pizza.

1:33:23But yeah, I mean, I just look for like what are some creative ways to cook vegetables because that's, you know, what goes on the pizzas a lot and that's what's happening. Yeah, well, those are great books and I had to ask you. We're here at Penguin Random House. We publish many of them here. So thank you for sharing. Yeah, I hope I picked some of the right ones. You picked some good ones. We asked all guests on Tate's podcast if you could write a cookbook or food culture book without the burden of time, meaning you have no deadline, or the burden of budget, meaning you have all the money in the world to write this book.

1:33:54Wiley, what would that book be? This might be weird, but I do think it would be fun to do a donut book. Like we got into donuts and donuts was short-lived. And there's not a lot of information about how to make donuts out there available. I mean, it's a professional trade. I mean, doing it at home is extreme. You can't really—it's hard to make donuts at home. I'm glad you said that. And I know that that might not be why anyone wants to publish a book about donuts, because typically if it can't be done at home, who's going to buy that cookbook? Listen, this is like all the money in the world, so it doesn't matter.

1:34:29So I think that could be fun because, you know, I'm really proud of the cake donuts that we made at Dews. We made a solid yeast donut, but we made a like, I'll take my donut to the state fair and our cake donut to the state fair. And I felt really good about what we did there. And we did a lot of really interesting work around the glazes. I think that making a donut is a very underappreciated process because it's both pastry and candy making because you're making a cake. Yeah. And then you're glazing it and the cake is the pastry part and the glaze is a candy. And it's really – when done right, it's really hard.

1:35:17But it's such a simple, ubiquitous thing that people sort of take it for granted and don't get it. It's a great point. I have to shout out Cafe Yen up in Goshen, New York, near where I live. It is absolutely the best donut upstate. Got to go there. Nice. Now, the other one, if I can be allowed, two book dreams. You can do two. Yeah, you deserve it. You earned it. You've been a great sport on the show. Thank you. Jim Meehan, one of the great cocktail barmen of our country. Best dressed, too. Best dressed, yes. Absolutely great dresser. Sartorially correct. Yeah, yeah. And a generally super nice guy.

1:35:57He said to me once, he's like, when you do your WD-50 cookbook, you should make it huge, and you should actually do every dish. The book should be every dish you ever made. Um, and I was like, that's, that's a crazy nutty idea. Uh, and I don't even know how to go about that, but, but wow, that would have been kind of neat, like to have done every, every dish. And so that always, you know, the WD 50 book is its own thing and, and, and happy with the way it came out and all that. But, but that would, that it always sort of stuck in my head. Like, wow, that kind of, again, a book that nobody needs or nobody wants.

1:36:34I'd, I'd have all four copies in my apartment. It would be in the Library of Congress. But there was something about that notion of like try to do every dish. I would be excited just to be able to read through it and look at, you know, where we started and where we went. A photo book, a scrapbook. Anyway, yeah, donuts. I love it. There's not a lot of, you know, if I had to like levy a criticism against the donut world, it's the same I would levy against the pizza world, which is there's just not a lot of academic information out there. And everybody wants it to be cheap, and that's not how it should be.

1:37:12Can you please come back? I would love to have you back on the show to talk about that. That's a huge topic about price of food. We'll have you back and talk about it. Everybody wants – that was the big thing. How can you charge$3.50 for a donut? Yeah. Why is your pizza so expensive? Why is a cup of coffee$4? I mean it's like – go down the list. But it's all the things that people want to be cheap. and now they want to be good. But let's stay out of it. I'll have you back. I really mean it. Wiley Dufresne, thank you for joining the Taste Podcast. Thanks for having me. Appreciate it.

1:37:45This is Taste is hosted by Eliza Abarbanel and me, Matt Rodbar. The show is produced by Shalia Harris and Pat Stango and edited by Clayton Gumbert. Theme music by Steve Rydell. Visit Taste online at tastecooking.com and make sure to subscribe to our newsletter for updates on all cool things that are happening.