388: Koreaworld with Doshi's Susan Kim

0:28This episode is brought to you by Resi and American Express. This concept of transportable food that was often refrigerated or room temperature could be a very delightful experience. And that even the unwrapping of it, the whole experience felt like a gift, you know.

0:51This is Taste. I'm your host, Matt Rodbart.

0:59Today we have Susan Kim in the studio. Susan is a chef, food stylist, and the proud Korean American business owner behind Doshi. Susan was born in Seoul and raised in California, and she cooked at Chez Panisse before moving to New York City in 2016. On this episode, we get into her take on the modern Korean food scene and her journey working both in restaurants and in food editorial. It's so great having Susan in the studio, and I hope you enjoy this conversation.

1:37Susan Kim, welcome to This is Taste. How are you? It's great to see you. It's great to see you. Thank you for having me. We have a lot to cover. I really appreciate shooting with you, with Alex, for Korea World. This is part of Korea World Week, and we're interviewing folks from the book. And really, you're somebody I've always wanted to have on the show, book or not, because you are in a lot of places at once. You have a really like like you're always innovating with your pop ups, the doshi. You're also food styling. You're you're in the mix. I just enjoy your work. Oh, well, that's very nice.

2:11I mean, that also means a lot coming from you. I think game recognize game. Yeah. I mean, you kind of have to be all over the place. So don't you think like living in New York, like it's the sum of all parts that kind of every month you're just like, somehow we did it again. Somehow we paid the rent. Somehow we got that pop up done. Yeah. What's good in New York right now, restaurant wise? I always want to tap in with somebody who knows what's going on. I was actually kind of contemplating this question. I don't eat out that much anymore. Yeah. You know, but I will tell you what New York restaurants have, though.

2:46I think over, let's say, like, you know, L.A. where I kind of grew up or the Bay Area where I did spend a lot of time as well. I think for me, New York restaurants have a thing, which is the energy of the room is why you kind of want to be in that restaurant. And for me, I like Servo's is such a good example of that because it's that like sardine can. And I don't know if I'm projecting, but it seems like everyone wants to be in that tiny room, including the cooks, the people that work there. it just feels really good in there so and the food's great but it's really about the combination of all of it yeah so i think that's a fun restaurant this is in new york city but i just visited uh emil and lauren stonic upstate i think cafe mutton yeah it's good they might compromise to a certain extent but it seems like shana's cooking whatever they want to cook you know i I respond to that a lot.

3:44I mean, it's like British country food. I mean, it's really with like Frankified elements too. Totally. It's really, really, it's sauce driven. It's like technique driven. It's got a great egg sandwich. It's got like really cool offal. I enjoy that restaurant. Yeah. And I think that they're pulling from all sorts of inspiration too, like the bologna sandwich. I mean, you know, I don't know them terribly well, but there's something poetic about it. And, you know, I remember a seared lamb heart with like salsa verde on a brunch menu. I know. I had that. Exactly. It was cool. It was me and you. Yeah.

4:18It's not like the biggest crowd pleaser for some of the crew up there. But I just love it. Yeah. It's a good call. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But you're not eating it. Is this you just cooking at home? I mean, I guess. I had a great lunch at Aggie's the other day, too. Yeah. I feel like these places are also places that I'm like, man, they care. Somebody really cares back there. And it might not necessarily be the chef owner. It most likely is not. But you can tell when someone cares. Small things. Yeah, they add up. Good call. Well said, Susan. So you lived in Seoul until you were seven. And when we were talking about your cooking in America during our interview, you brought up this idea that Koreans growing up in Seoul and in Korea grew up instinctual cooks.

5:01I'd love you to unpack that a bit. I think it was such a great thought. I mean, obviously it's based on my own upbringing because certainly there are a lot of Koreans, Korean-Americans that don't grow up eating the way that I did. But the way that I grew up eating, whether it was inside my mom's own kitchen or, you know, going out to the local sankepsar place, which is like pork belly, is that you got to get in there, man. So, for instance, if we're talking about the instinctual thing, like gori gom thang or those milky bone broth types of... Yeah, sulung thang. They'll arrive completely unseasoned.

5:49That's how it was in my house, right? But there is a shitload of sliced scallions and some coarse salt, oftentimes kakdugi, the radish kimchi, or some, you know, Napa cabbage kimchi also. And you are doctoring and seasoning as you go. you are seeing that the kimchi is adding salinity and seasoning, but also adding these like acid bites, these crunchy textural bites to richness. From a very young age, I was always like a scallion. I wanted it like covered with scallions. Yeah, you knew your soul and tongue had to be well seasoned. You're not more of that muted side. Right. And then the usage of just the salt as well, right?

6:36And then obviously that differentiates between every, you know, my brother or my dad. But like everyone's kind of it's like a shared experience, but then they're on their own adventure as well. And I think the whole instinctual cook thing for me is that it's imbued on you how to taste and what you like to taste. And I think that's such a fundamental thing about being a cook. And then if you go out and you're at a Korean barbecue place, I mean, granted, there are so many places that are like cutting the meat and flipping it for you. But a lot of times we're kind of going you're going in there. You're you're so afraid to touch the tongue.

7:13Exactly. You're seeing where the hot spots are. You're seeing like if you want a little more color on that, you you're you're engaged. You're there. And I think those are the things to me that was like very like instinctual and second nature that not everyone kind of grows up with. That's amazing. Did you make the rice at home too when you were young? Oh, that was one of the definitely the first things I learned. Absolutely. My friend raises his Korean American family, raises his daughter to make the rice. And it's just like a great, you know, there's a lot of cooking in Korean household, a lot of shared food experiences.

7:47Oh, yeah. And all those lessons. And I don't know how your friend taught his kid, but there was no measuring. Yeah, you do the knuckle thing with the water level. I think his is like push the button on the cuckoo. Yeah, the cuckoos are dope. I mean, the kids are quite young. So, yeah, it's a modern story. But also think about that in terms of how like the meal really begins or centers around rice too. I know. Which I think is also powerful. We have a whole section of modern rice, we call it. And it's kind of modern takes on rice dishes with Korean lens. I want to get into your career a bit. I think it's a really cool career.

8:24I'm glad you think so. Well, no, I mean it because I think when you when you teeter between professional kitchens and food styling and you do both, because I consider pop-ups highly professional and I've been to a couple of them. They're great. But you worked at Chez Panisse for a while. I did. I mean, I guess it's a while considering what like sort of the times that people are putting in kitchens now. I worked close to four years there. Yeah. and it was informative and integral and it sort of extends what we're already talking about which I think there's so many takeaways and lessons from my time there but one of the key things is it really teaches you how to taste and so I think um that's such an important thing yeah you know and because there were some cooks that I worked with that had like bounced and then came back one of them had gone and worked at a TK kitchen, Thomas Keller kitchen.

9:20And he was like, there's kits for everything in that kitchen, including beans. And we were like, wait, what? But, but I also understood that point of view because to ensure consistency on that level, every single thing is going to be weighed, including salt. But there's a lot of factors on why that also is not going to ensure consistency. It's like, how long have those beans been sitting around? Right. Like there's just so many factors. And if there is less feel and taste in the actual day-to-day cooking, it might be a little bit less, you know, lower quality. Right. And so, but I think given that there were really no recipes there, with the exception of certain things like soufflés, I remember very few recipes that we looked at.

10:06You just, you learn to cook by looking at what you're handling, the source of heat, if applicable, and to taste and continue to taste. That's amazing. You work under Cal, Peter now? I worked under Cal for a little bit. He went as one of the downstairs chefs quickly after I left. And I worked under Beth Wells and Nathan. And those were the two cafe chefs. But it's interesting because Shea has such a long story to history, but there were cooks there from the 80s still. Such a vibe. It's such a hang, I'm sure, with the crew, right? Right. But then there were these new generation or new crew of cooks that were coming that were like, they're going to get their year and bounce.

10:53You know, if you make it a year, that's still something. You know, I just thought now there's just so many different ways to. Yeah. Susan, what kept you there? Because four is a commitment. Did you live in Berkeley? I did. And I was one of these rare people that actually, or maybe nobody. I lived in San Francisco and I commuted into Berkeley. I was in a rent controlled apartment in San Francisco and I was just, yeah, it was one of those things that made sense in that way. Yeah, right. But let me ask you, what kept you there? I think, okay. I mean, here's the thing. This, I don't, I mean, I don't want to go too deep into this because, you know, TLDR.

11:34But I lost a partner to cancer during that time. And cooking is something that it could be whatever you want it to be, meaning it was the only thing that could get me out of the multiple tabs that were open on my computer about cancer research, anecdotal stuff that I was reading about, you know, what my partner was going through, all of this stuff. If you are cooking something under an 800-wood oven, you have to be there because your eyelashes are burning. It takes you out of it. And then when there were things that were more prep-oriented tasks, like say just taking the meat off of a lamb's shoulder and it's taking hours, you kind of go into a meditative state too.

12:18Cooking for me really saved me during that time in terms of just processing what was going on with a partner that was ill. And then it was in about a span of two years that he ultimately died. But it was it really timing wise, I was like, oh, like this is the only thing that could get me out of that. That headspace. Yeah. Yeah. So working these pretty long hours. And just. Yeah. And what cooking was in terms it could it sort of it could be whatever you want it to be, you know. So, I mean, that's why it was like in timing wise, it was extremely I'm I like. Yeah. I give everything to. Wow. Yeah.

13:00Thank you for sharing that. Yeah. Yeah, that's a great personal story that you shared. And that's a lot to go through. And then it's really, really powerful. There's nothing. I mean, and you also, you cook so much too. It's just, it's incredible just to be there with something, right? You're like, I don't want this to burn or where is it? Like there's no choice but to be present. And I think that's one of the many, many gifts of cooking. Really, really well said. Let's talk about moving on to food styling because that's kind of like your pivot away from restaurant cooking. You started working as a food stylist and you started working in food editorial, commercial.

13:36I'd love to get a sense of making that transition and your decision to do that. It's cool that you made that move. I mean, to tell you the truth, I don't do that much of it now. I think I'm still interested in it if the person or the group or the project in itself is interesting. So I came to New York City to help open a now defunct restaurant called Ager. Ager, and I know I saw that. Which is, I mean, you know. Grand Central Station. Literally from like Berkeley where it's almost like in a kitchen that's like kind of like in a Luddite space. Like it's like all open fire to a kitchen that had no windows, underground, Grand Central, all induction.

14:20Not a lot of active smells. Klaus Meyers, the chef. Yes. Famously co-founder of Noma. Big opening. I mean, listen, hell of an opening party for Egger. That party was, I just still remember that party. And we got the three stars from time and all of that. But it was such an antithesis and a departure from where I was coming from. And actually, Klaus is the one, if you want to say, who recruited me because he came into Shea when I was on the line one night and we struck up this conversation. All to say, it got me to New York. But after that opening period happened, and I think I stayed on six months after, what I noticed in the New York scene in terms of like people working were that a lot of my acquaintances, coworkers that had traditionally worked in restaurants were now doing various different jobs, including styling and food media.

15:12So that's sort of how I fell into it. I started assisting. Yeah. And so and that's kind of how I met so many friends that are so important to me to this day. I feel like what's keeping me in New York are these friendships. And, you know, it's you meet the most incredible people through work. I love it. Yeah. And in this world, the food world, the food media restaurant world, it's characters, it's passion. It's a lot of dedication. And I love I love that you articulate this so well about how the people is why you stick around. Yeah. I mean, you know, I think food styling, I think there are people that are so good at it.

15:50I think, you know, it's something that exercises a different part of the brain, obviously. I think I sort of phased out of it in a way that like maybe I, you know, the things that people do on such a huge like advertorial level, you know, that's a, that's a different thing. But for me, it was sort of exemplifying the density of New York and the types of work that are available because, you know, someone's writing a book. Someone's on this shoot. Someone's throwing this event. There's so much going on at all times. Absolutely. Yeah. So let's talk a little bit about the way you run your pop up. Yeah.

16:29Because it's like not New York based. It's like sometimes in Paris, you do a lot there. It'll be in the West Coast sometimes. It'll be in New York. Yeah. And and really it's based around Doshi Doshi Rock, which is the lunchboxes that young Korean school children take to school. And you've kind of made that a bit of, you know, it's your brand, but you also it's a spiritual North Star of sorts. This is my read of it because you're not necessarily doing only boxes, but you have a real. I'd love to hear, Susan, your kind of what it is all about. You know, it's ever evolving. Sure. As we are as human beings, I think.

17:05You know, it's so funny because I'm always like, it's interesting because we were talking about the tote bag that I have, which is like the one merch item I have. But I'm like, is this going to be like, you know, a Tony Hsieh Zappos moment, which I don't even know if I should even mention him because whatever. Yeah, RIP, I guess. RIP. The guy kind of crashed and burned. But like meaning like his whole thing was that like he was never passionate about shoes. is it just is a company that launched on like a philosophy and a mantra and like a business that evolved. I'm just wondering at one point, like, am I going to be able to connect the dots and look back and be like, remember when you cooked food, you know, but all to say like, uh, the concept was Toshidaks, like you mentioned, and it was timely in the sense that it was peak pandemic.

17:51Things really quieted down. It was the hustle culture was non-existing. But what was happening in terms of the community of food and those around food and selling food was that there was an openness and a reception and a receptiveness to sharing kitchens. And I think people were open to even different concepts, not just their like regular go-to restaurants. And then the model of takeout, right? People were like just picking up stuff. And I had already and always envisioned Toshiraks or Doshi boxes because of how amazing they were in Korea and also bentos in Japan. This concept of transportable food that was often refrigerated or room temperature could be a very delightful experience.

18:41And that even the unwrapping of it, the whole experience felt like a gift, you know. And then 도시 means city in Korean. And I was like, New York City is the city for me. Yeah. And a lot of meaning there. Yeah. And it's given me so much. And so, you know, launching it here totally made sense. But to your point, it has gone in different places and evolved geographically gone to different areas. And the box concept is definitely one branch that I do. But it's now, you know, like the next few pop ups, one is going to be at a hotel kind of, you know, bringing on this concept of kav, like wine kav. And then the next one will be like full on dinner.

19:31It just it's it's sort of whatever the space dictates and whatever feels like that's what. Yeah, you're not putting yourself in like it doesn't have to be literally in a box. No, but I do love those. But I do like what a Toshida can be. I mean, in the book, in Korea World, we have a fun profile with the Soul Sausage guys, Young and Ted from L.A. And they do Doshi Rock themselves. And their business is a little different. I mean, they do catering. It's mostly for, like, studios. And it's all Doshi Rock. Wait, that's brilliant because in terms of that business model, I would love to talk to them.

20:09Yo, you should. They link with them. They're cool people. I mean, that game is about scaling. Yeah, and they have a great commissary. And those guys, they used to run Soul Sausage as a brick and mortar downtown in the arts district. And now they're just doing a lot more. But it's like the similar, it's taking this idea of Doshi Rock, but making it larger than literally just the lunchbox. Yeah, exactly. Let's talk about panchan because I love that when we chatted about it for the book and the piece I wrote about you in Korea World, you came up with this idea. And I really buy is anything can be panchan.

20:43And like when you were growing up, you know, on the West Coast, after you moved here when you were seven, it seemed like the way panchan was served in your family home was minimal at times, also extravagant at times, too. So I'd like to get a sense of how anything could be panchan. Anything could be banchan because my mom really showed that, exemplified that. And a couple of key examples, and I feel like we've talked about this, are craft American singles that she would cut into pieces that we could pick up with our chopsticks. That was a banchan. Absolutely. Totally. Amazing. A pimenton stuffed olive was a banchan.

21:23and it's not just those are all existing on its own but it could be with like kakduki and um a muchim um it's it's a assemblage of all kinds of things and now also in hindsight i haven't really actually asked my parents this but i think they were pulling some miracles meaning like yeah you know i never ever felt like we lack for things but i know that like of course there were you know situations where they had to stretch a paycheck or so forth and so they were just like these things that they were pulling out or my mom specifically the thing about anything can be punched on is yeah absolutely anything could be punched on there has to be pop though you know like meaning like the rice yeah and if you have like rice then anything you can put a little kreft single on the un-rice or you can put amuchim.

22:15Yeah, I love that. Yeah, and now I feel like also I love having like, I don't know how you feel about day-old rice. I mean, of course I fuck with it, but I love fresh rice. You know that when the moment you open it, you let that final residual steam go and then you're fluffing it? You fluff it, you serve it, and you spoon it, and then you've got about two minutes before it starts to die. Yeah, and that rice to me is the best thing in the world. Yeah. And deo I will fuck with, but for bokkenbap. Sure. And I think fried rice to me, and someone who didn't grow up eating a lot of rice, so I have a different relationship.

22:51But for me, and I love the way we do a roasted gojujang sauce for our bibimbap that we do as a Korean air homage. I feel like that sauce and rice is like the greatest thing. Oh, yeah. And that also, like if you're talking about bokkenbap or fried rice or even chuk or anything like that, like sometimes you will even intentionally like dry out certain things. Definitely. I'm really into making pugak right now. Yeah. So that is essentially like chuk or kanji that you are using as a paste for kim, these seaweed sheets. And so, of course, there's, you know, there's nothing wasted. But nothing like that moment when you're like, I'm fluffing the rice.

23:31I'd love to read a longer work of your panchans. I feel like you could do 100 panchans. I mean, panchans? You're very smart creatively. I mean, I think it's like, you know, the concept of things that you learn in like, quote unquote, professional kitchens, like family meal, that kind of stuff. I mean, that's literally like what punch it's like, let's make something. I know it is. Which is amazing. The young bond punch on right now, they're doing like Asian pear and avocado. Yeah. And things like that. They're doing a cool thing where they're doing. They're taking like a beshu, a beshu kimchi that's like old makonji, like old school, old stuff.

24:06And like they're doctoring it. Yeah. Like they're bringing in it from an old market, but like adding sesame oil and doctoring it. I think it's really cool. And then to cook with it, right? Then you cook with it. Right. Like banchan can be like you can take it and then cook with it. It can go from the kitchen table to the kitchen. I mean, kimchi in itself, if you're talking about the ultimate banchan is kimchi. And man, the different stages of kimchi, if you think about it, it's pretty amazing. Oh, I mean, especially just the best shoot, just right out of the bowl after you've made it, the fresh kimchi.

24:40Oh, that's my favorite, when you're actually just putting the paste on. Yeah, it's like a salad. I mean, it's the same as a salad. Oh, it's great. And then cooking with it, too. It's like, I made kimchi jjigae the other day, and I was just like, you really only need to add water, because everything in here is in here. Just like kimchi, especially kimchi in water. because in the kimchi was ginger and garlic and fish sauce and shrimp and oysters i mean of course we could make some sort of a stock and honestly you know those nuanced things will add to it but i was like bacon do it if you want but yeah exactly i this was a mackerel one but like it's all in there yeah word i mean i'm into that and and man i korean home cooking is is just i love it so much it's so it's so interesting to to talk through each house to house how kimchi is made right yeah fun and then how people are particular about their kimchi too and it usually stems from the mom stuff it all does it always goes back to mom yeah i gotta ask you about the modern korean restaurant scene in new york and we've talked about it this week a lot and it's a big big topic uh we've i've been really like fortunate to be able to write about aduki in korea world about this modern scene on each coast and also happening in seoul but But from you, from a professional point of view, it must have been really interesting to you in the past five years to live in New York and see so many restaurants open.

26:08Yeah. Framed as Korean restaurants from people of many different backgrounds, mostly Korean Americans or Koreans chefs. Susan, what have you thought about this movement? And I'd love to get a few of your favorite places, past and present. I'm so excited about it, just like I think any sort of consumer or a restaurant patron that is excited about eating out. Right. I mean, you know, when you live in a city like New York or I think a common conversation is like, have you been there? It's like this topic. Right. Or when are you going to go there? You know, that whole thing. Like and absolutely. It's super exciting.

26:48I feel like I haven't gone to too many places. I really want to go to Ari Ari or Ari Ari. I mean, Clayton's here. He's edited all the episodes. I've mentioned that restaurant, I would say, 20 times. I don't. Literally. And I feel like the homies that I've gone through, only positive words. It's the albop alone. Albop with uni cream. Oh, I'm insane no more. It's a fire dish. It's really perfectly thought through. They have an amazing salad. I'm sorry, listener, you've heard me say this three times. But if you haven't, here it is. They have this amazing ganchan salad. So it's a ganjan dressing with a little bit of anchovy, I think, flake.

27:23It's umami rich. Yeah. But it has a sweetness with meishol, I think. There's some meishol in there. Yeah. It's really, really cool to balance there. And then I think what they're known for is, like, some of their bone broth soups. I mean, I definitely—yeah, absolutely. And, you know, I don't know if this is part of that movie, but I had a really good meal at Ole, which is next to, I think, Okusang Dek or something like that. and I just thought they were like it was just solid I mean it was just good food I agree and the ningmyeon's really good yeah yeah I had ningmyeon and galbi yeah yeah good stuff and yeah I feel like the fact that there is such a hunger for it and that people are so receptive to it it's an exciting time to be like what is it that we want to eat what is it that we want to make what is Korean food What is Korean American?