389: Koreaworld with Yangban & Nadia Cho

28:06So I told them, we just started. It's going to take time. You're going to see, oh, we export more food product to all the United States. It's going to take time. Right now, it's clearly acknowledgement, you know, awareness. but it's kind of, you know, I see some article, there's some, you know, coming up. So at that time, it's really hard to see, you know, result directly after that. But right now, after 10 years, we see a lot of kind of good and, you know, good, you know. Oh, we see it. I mean, we covered in our book, Korea World. We really want to talk about the modern Koreatown and how the modern Koreatown is everywhere in these cities and not in these strips called Koreatown.

28:52It's like Korean culture and food culture is everywhere. And I think... For simply 2011, you know, Huni Danji opened, got the one Michelin, and Jung Shik Dang opened 2011. Right now, last year, Michelin, 11 Korean restaurants. Every year, new entries, one Korean restaurant. So I don't want to say that's really reserved, but it's one of the reasons, you know, a lot of Korean fine dining, modern fine dining in New York, it's kind of really like acclaimed, got the response. 100%. Lots of media has been spilled about the fine dining side of Korean cooking. And we've covered many of the chefs on, but between Auto Mix and Oji Mi and the Han Hospitality restaurants, to name a few, it's pretty remarkable.

29:44Jun Shik is still around too. We can't forget about that. Yeah, he is, you know, we call it Korean Food Fine Dining Academy because, you know, JP is from, you know, Jongsik. You know, Ho Young Kim of Ju-ah is from Jongsik. So I think we all chefs appreciate, you know, how Chef Jongsik did for, especially New York dining scene. It's remarkable. Let's talk about your work with television. Because one thing, in addition to working with the government and working on projects like our guidebook and events, you would often work in Korea with journalists and you would work with a lot of really interesting projects.

30:26I would say the one, a bunch come to mind, but one is the Anthony Bourdain episode that you worked with 0.0 on, bringing Anthony Bourdain to Seoul for the first time. What was that like? That's a big sigh. Challenging. Very challenging. Challenging is an understatement. Thank you. It's kind of for that Parchanone episode. Because back to the TV, you know, a lot of people ask me, what do you do? You know, I don't know. Sometimes my role is different. It really depends on the project. Even though we're a TV, you know, I can do producer. I can do local producer sometimes. Fix all different roles in the different project.

31:12But, you know, Anthony Boulding, he's a legend. So I want to do the right with that project because I know that's how influential it's going to be, that episode. I know Anthony Boulding loves Korean food. And after, I think, No Reservation, he was so excited. And then first meeting with his team, he want to talk about Cheong and Han. I shocked how he knows these two words. He's not just TV personality. I think that's why people love Tony because he knows exactly what is the right word to really understand the culture. It's not just food. But it was not easy. Even talk about Chung and Han, so producer didn't get it.

32:02I tried to explain to them. So after all that, And unfortunately, we are not good at really delivering the message of what is Han and Jong to, you know, tell the story about the Korean food through the food, you know. A missed opportunity, you would say, that episode. So whenever I add, if I have a second opportunity, I want to really take Tony back to Korea. I want to do the right thing to tell, show what is Han and Jung through food. But it's not going to happen. Unfortunately, it doesn't happen with him. But there are plenty of interesting observers of food out there doing great television, doing great YouTube.

32:47I think YouTube is an interesting place for food travel. What are some other shows or media folks that you worked with in terms of collaborations? In the beginning, the Korean government always preferred big names. We call it kind of, you know, the old media or legacy media. It's NBC, CBS, CNN. So that's why I work with a lot of big legacy media. A lot of NBC work, yeah. Yes. and then even but I still work with them but I appreciate I work with either YouTube and Netflix or much more different platform you know and they kind of right now they appreciate Korean government or all the audience understand how important even they right now they don't get it they don't like the legacy media they were YouTube which is fair and I think that's actually a smart move by then And finally, not to think about only the brand name, but actually what people are listening to.

33:47You mentioned very briefly Netflix, but I think it's a huge moment in your career is when you worked with the producers of Chef's Table on the kind of legendary Jung Kwan episode, the Buddhist temple, the monk chef down in Jelado at the temple. You worked with Jung Kwan and you brought David Gelb and team down there. What was that shoot, which is now one of the most iconic episodes of food television ever made? What was that shoot like? I knew. We spent two weeks in the temple. But kind of in the middle of the shooting, David and I, Nadia, it's going to be big. It's going to be something different.

34:32Because when I had the first meeting with David, because I think it was a little challenging for him or his team. because it's the first time to, you know, have the host or talent not fine dining chef who doesn't have a restaurant. And then always they shoot the food beautifully, but kind of temple food is kind of very humble, you know. It's not meant to be shown off and played beautifully. No, but during the shooting, we know it's kind of our stereotype, what it's kind of beautiful food scene, you know. And then it is the right time. I don't think I just tell the story of one monk, temple food.

35:19It has what is the philosophy of Korean food, no food waste, appreciation. You know, so many different story philosophy behind the Korean food. I think that's why people love this story. that's why I love the TV work because the one content how you know inspires so many people over global war you know and then you know that's the chef table Junggan episode is really a big moment for Korean culture because it food culture because it made the really strong case that Korean food is not simply barbecue there's a whole world that's outside of the grills And I want to stay with temple cuisine because you mentioned it and it's very true.

36:07Like Jung Kwon is one person. But as I write in Korea World with Dookie, there's a whole section about the temple cuisine throughout Korea. And you and I and Alex Lau and Dookie and team got to go and stay overnight at a temple. And we went to several temples during the research for the book and we write about it in the section. I'd like to get your sense of how temple cuisine and the Buddhist religion, it permeates Korean culture. It's not just one person who's doing the fancy, you know, TV appearances. There's a network of monk chefs and of just nun chefs and just chefs who work in temples who maybe are non-religious, but they're part of this culture.

36:52It's really unique. I'm not a Buddhist. And then it's pretty much, even though I'm Korean, it's kind of first time for me to really get into the temple because of this, you know. So I, even every time I learn, but Korean, for Korean, the Buddhism is not the religion. It's more like, you know, philosophy because all the based on culture, a lot of Buddhism really behind really for a long time, more than, you know, 100 years. So even though I'm not Buddhist, I kind of get sensitive how Buddhism is really into our food scene. So when I, even when I, there are several monks in Korea and nuns who does temple food.

37:40The reason why I love Jung Kwan at the time, first of all, her temple art is beautiful. And then I love her food. No matter, even though temple food, they're delicious. That's my kind of motto. Food should be delicious, no matter what, vegetarian or it should be delicious. I love her food. And then I love her, the temple foods as kind of trying to do it, you know, no food waste, vegetarian. It's kind of all that right globally we are worried about, thinking about the kind of really, you know, social activism. So that's how connected to the right now. And then that's people, when they go to Korea, they want to experience temple cuisine, even though they are not Buddhism.

38:30I don't think it's really just because of Jungwan. They want to learn. And then I heard so many people after that, I changed my diet. I started the meditation. It's kind of, so it kind of really changed their experience moment. I think that's kind of the temple cuisine. It's playing a role in the Korean food right now. It's also to add a bit of a tourist opportunity because if you visit Korea, and we read about this in the book, you can do temple stays, which are really, really unique. You can spend a day. You can spend a week. But you book it through a website in English, and you can stay. And I would say with wellness and health and wellness at the top of mind with many travelers, it's a great way to do Seoul and Busan for a week.

39:18And then you maybe do like three days at a temple. And I'm not sure you remember, 10 years ago, when I told you about a temple cuisine or a temple, you are not interested at all. I know. I'm not interested, but I'm very surprised that last trip, you know, for the Korean War, Nadia, I want to try to experience a temple stay and a temple cuisine. I was very surprised. Hey, man, you are... Calling me out. I love it. You're calling me correct. And it's true. I was less interested, definitely less interested in it. And I think the Jung Kwan episode kind of got me started. But then I was like, there's a whole network.

39:59We did go with Eric Repair. We've kind of forgotten about that trip. Oh, yeah. We took Eric Repair and I wrote a story for Bon Appetit. And you were there the whole time. And we got to hang out with him in Korea for a week. And oh, that was fun. It was fun, you know. And I think it's the time. even I love that experience because Eric is a French and the fine dining chef. You are a journalist. When we go to one restaurant or experience something, you will respond, each other are different. I love to see how you embrace even though same dish, same restaurant. It's kind of over for me is a learning process to how, you know, chef or journalist, you know, accept that food differently.

40:49So I love that watching you guys have a really different. It was cool. It's a really nice observation that you have because I think we have very different points of view. And, you know, he definitely prized certain elements of it as I did, but we differed too. It's not really someone is right, someone is wrong, just a different. I think that become my asset to, you know, all last decade because all Korean food have all different aspects. So I learned from different, even chefs, they have a different, you know, really approach. Let me ask you about Zhang, the book you just published. Yes. Not too long ago, this spring.

41:28March 12th. And with the chef Minggu Kang and, you know, Joshua David Stein. And it's an amazing book. I really, really learned a lot from reading it. I thought that there was never a book written about Zhang in English, and you did something really unique with it. Let me ask you, what inspired the book? And really, what's the book? Now that it's been out a little while, what are you learning about the book? First of all, I want to thank you. You introduced Joshua to us. He was a great writer. I mean, there was only one choice. Joshua is a terrific writer. He's also just a curious guy who wants to learn on all of his projects.

42:03And I knew there was so much for him to learn. and he did a terrific job, really terrific job. And then I know Minggu for a long time, even before he opened Minggu's. So now he become most respected chef. It's kind of the leader of the old chef in Korea. So during the pandemic, I had lunch with Minggu in Seoul. Minggu, you know, I want to write the book. and then about Domingos, I'm not interested. And he said, it's probably about something, what is the most important element in Korean food. It was a chong. So we mean it is the chong. But we didn't, at the time, it's kind of several ways to rewrite the chong.

42:51But I don't want to really do rewrite in Korean and translate something like it's not going to work. I know that. So it's better. It's kind of really challenging. I think it's really most unique teamwork, writing book. I think all the kind of publishing cookbook. So it's better the teamwork we have of American writer and really in the beginning point we start, you know, right. So you introduced me, Joshua. And I believe it's a very challenging job for him because he didn't know anything about Korean food before he joined this project. So every week we had the Zoom meeting is kind of the process.

43:33We jumped so many information to Joshua. I know it's not easy for him to digest all the information about even Chang itself. It's not easy, is it? Absolutely not. It's highly technical work to make jjang, which is, to be clear, gojujang, tenjang, and ganjang, the three main components of Korean cooking, which could be the red chili paste, the bean paste, and the soy sauce. And then even, you know, there's no textbook or, you know, theory in a book out there, even in Korean. So we need so many research. We need to interview. we had to, you know, the professor or scientist to get this information, try to really, you know, there's no, you know, standard or something, even though we call it Han Shik Den Jang, Yang Jok Den Jang, there's no standard.

44:31So we need to, what is between all, try to be neutral, not really biased to buy a certain company or, you know, it's a really challenging process, but it's so important to do it because, you know, If you go to a Korean restaurant in New York, in Seoul, one table, 80 dishes is from one of them. It's amazing. So it's impossible to understand Korean food without them. So it's worth it. I loved it. And really highly technical work, but still very readable and cookable. Let me ask you, while going on book tour and talking to a lot of readers, are you getting a sense? Are people cooking Korean food around America?

45:17Yeah, I'm very surprised. First of all, we had a book tour in New York, San Francisco, in L.A. All Korean-American community in L.A., you know, they are a big supporter. They, you know, thank you so much, you know, writing this book. It's really important for the second generation. They were excited. The community was excited. Yes. But even non-Korean, you know, they, in San Francisco, we had an event in bookstore. One guy, he was not Korean and he brought the two-month gochujang and then show us. I'm not sure it's the first time. Do you have any relatives or family member of a Korean? No, I just, I wanted to make it.

46:04And I'm not sure it's the right direction or not. It looks like they're fermenting right now, but so impressed. You know, I think it's the right time to, they know, they want to know about the cheong and really what is backbone of Korean food. Oh my gosh. And I'm sure so many professionals too, folks who work in restaurants, who are chefs, who are in culinary school, even young students in high school who want to learn about Korean food. And especially the technical elements about gojujang, tenjeon, and ganjeon. And it's the book. Jang is the book. Yeah, exactly. Chef, not Korean chef, they know the gochujang, but they didn't know what really kind of how it comes from, made of, kind of flavor component.

46:50So chefs are very excited. You know, Mingo did a great job about the recipe because we didn't want to have a recipe on only Korean dishes because the main goal is if you have gochujang in your pantry, is not, you're not just only, you know, cooking the Korean cuisine. You can use this gochujang to pasta or, you know, pizza or barbecue. Pizza, you say? Let's go. Pizza? Gochujang? It was, we had the event in Stanford University. They use gwanjang pizza. I'm super into that. Trust me. I think. It was great. I believe so. I believe that these Korean flavors that you and I have written books about and we are really interested in, your family and me just as a journalist, I mean, these are the flavors of the future.

47:43These are what people want to make. Speaking of flavors, you and I were in Seoul recently a couple months ago, and I was working on a magazine article. And I want to get a sense from you, what do you take away from our trip to Korea when you were looking at the modern restaurant scenes? not the traditional places that cover the chigae and tangs and places that are more like the old school, but like the modern wave. And I think that's been my interest in recent writing. What are you taking away from the modern scene in Seoul? I don't think it's really one factor, but I think after COVID, a lot of pastry or chef who work in Europe and U.S., there's only a chance they need to come back home in Korea.

48:30So instead of they go back to Europe or United States, they open their restaurant based on the training in, you know, Spain, France, you know, United States. And then, you know, and then they open restaurant with their modern technique or Western technique in using the Korean local ingredient. So become so diverse, so diverse. even though they have a French restaurant but they're really diverse with many different techniques or many different ways. The crazy thing right now in Seoul is a dessert scene. You see that. It's influenced by French and Japanese but Korean good at it is kind of do, make, digest all the real technique and do our own thing.

49:22Exactly. So they're very, very talented, you know, Partisi opened the restaurant, opened their cozy unique boutique store in Seoul, spread out in Songsu, Akgujong, in Hongdae, all everywhere in Itaewon. It's amazing. Amazing. Oh, my God. I agree. I mean, we went to Honeybee, which comes to mind. I loved the pastry at Honeybee. what are some restaurants not just pastry but but all restaurants in modern soul that you would recommend we go to fine dining of course mingles yeah seven store and the italic garden if you can book any of those it's quite difficult i know yeah it's a tough one i've tried to send people mingles and it's like i don't have the bat phone you do call nadi if you need a reservation yes Hit her up on Instagram.

50:13Yeah. But, you know, there's a restaurant, Flavortown in Songzoo. Actually, they had a restaurant in Australia. It's the same story. Instead of going back to Australia, they open a restaurant, but they're doing kind of Chinese influence. So very unique, very interesting concept, you know, in the really hip, cool area. I love Flavortown. I'm writing about it. And what they're doing is bringing mala, the Szechuan peppercorn. So it's not just Chinese, but it's Szechuan to Korean dishes. And I love it. And I think mala entering Korean cooking is – there's a place in L.A. that's doing it too. And I think it's like the next big movement in America is this mala-accented Korean cooking.

51:02Last two years, it's kind of a big trend in Seoul. Malat is kind of malatane, really authentic, you know, the Sichuan food. But I love their approach. They use their ingredient, but not only the Sichuan food. You know, they use their own ways, kind of creative way. I love those kind of young chef try to do many different influence, make their own thing. You know, I love that. Are there any other restaurants, one more that comes to mind in Seoul that you just like got to go there? Modern restaurant? Yeah, we'll say modern. Or we could say any. I don't want to restrict it. Because always I have sort of kind of hesitation why it's modern, you know.

51:46And even when you go to, when we're walking in the song, you saw a long line of the gamjatang plays with young generation. I think right now that's kind of hip trendy in Korea. Even young generation go to kind of uncle-flavored food restaurant instead of a cool heap. You know, they take it as a heap, you know. So they love go to Pyongyang Naengmyeon. They think that's a heap, even though they appreciate those kind of really traditional flavor. So I do recommend go to Jihmi Naengmyeon. It's my favorite Naengmyeon place. Yeah, yeah. Naengmyeon or like a mandu jip, we're going to see up in like a northern part of Seoul.

52:29Long lines, gamjitang you mentioned. I liken it to like the young high school generation like going to the diner like going to that like comforting old school just for like the nostalgia of it you see it in Tokyo as well in some of the old neighborhoods in Tokyo some of those old school restaurants have like a little bit of a younger crowd and there's like some nostalgia I want to ask one more question about modern Seoul restaurants let's talk about Mengtan and Seongchang Mengtan Barbecue and Seongchang as well like Mengtan is a beef restaurant, Sungcheong is a pork restaurant. They're both kind of like play around with the idea of nostalgia.

53:09Sungcheong is in Ujuro, which is a quickly gentrifying part of Seoul. What do you think about the way these two restaurants are impacting Korean cuisine? Korean barbecue, still most famous Korean kind of dining scene in the globally. But if you go to Korea, Even though Korean beef barbecue, there's so many different types of barbecue. In the United States, less popular pork barbecue. But still in Korea, if we go to Samgyopsal restaurant or Hangjongsal, Garibussal, or different special parts in the pork barbecue. I love that they're so smart that one company, the Mengtan and Sancheong, The management, they know how to kind of authentic Korean barbecue scene to really kind of smart, hip way.

54:02Really cool location. Plantation is hip. And then, but the flavor is very authentic. They execute so well. I mean, they've got like, you know, roe and all like, you know, Korean roe as a dipping sauce. They've got like really unique cuts like jowl and knack on the pork side. And I think the pancheon is really, it harkens to an old school time, but it's more modern as well. They appeal to the young generation. But mongtan is the name of the city in Jeollado in the southern west. Sancheon is the city name is east and south. So they kind of show you, we use kind of local regional food. It means it's kind of hip trendy.

54:48That's cool. Like the regionality of Korean cuisine. Yes, yes. Which has been something that hasn't translated until recent time. Right? And we're seeing it here in New York as well. Like at Ariyari. Yeah. Busan cuisine. It's amazing, you know. Even Okdongsik does 돼지국밥. 돼지국밥 is kind of special dishes from Busan. I know. It become New York Times fame. Yeah, Okdongsik made the top 100 restaurants in New York. To see that list, I just reviewed it. this morning and there were like five korean restaurants on that list yeah it's kind of because i admitted i was wrong because the djigukbap i thought it's not gonna work but it i was wrong i mean it's djigukbap it's mandu it's it's kimchi it's three things right i feel like simplicity helps korean cuisine in america even djigukbap compared to really authentic djigukbap restaurant in Busan, it's kind of more mild blend, less gamey.

55:50The criticism comes in, Nadia. Oh, okay. I should shut up. Shooting darts, you know, it's fine. No, no, but I think that's why it works. If they brought exactly authentic, original 돼지 국밥 to New York, it's going to be very hard. It's harsh, yeah, and you have it for a hangover. It's like, you know, great morning stew, but in America it's dinner. But I'm happy I was wrong. Yeah, totally. On This Is Taste, we asked guest about the concerning taste. So to close this interview, here's a little rapid fire, fast and furious taste check. Nadia, are you ready? I have a little... You've taken some notes.

56:27Yes. This is less spontaneous. The best fruit? We call it Korean pear, but you know, Asian pear. Yeah, we call it Korean pear too. Thank you. It's Korean pear. Korean pear. What are the seasons? Is it fall? Yeah, fall. Yeah. And it's hard. Like sometimes H Mart sells them and they're like not as good. Not as good. You have to find the right place or when they grow here. Sometimes really seasonally. Sometimes you get from Korea. But I hope there are some farm in the United States with similar weather in Korea. They have the Asian pear, Korean pear, the similar sweetness, texture. Or find a Korean friend who has a tree in their backyard.

57:11That's what you got to find. Oh, yeah. The worst vegetable? French bean. Oh, the French bean. The French cut. Yeah. I don't like it. Yeah, it has a weird texture. Sorry. Yeah, no, it's all good. You can apologize to the French bean committee. The best dessert? Gelato. Oh, yeah. What flavor? Chocolate. Yeah, yeah, right on. Your favorite American fast food chain? Unfortunately, I should say Chipotle. Chipotle is not unfortunate. I like that choice. Not bad. Thank you. It's a good call. Yeah. But, you know, yeah, I'm not a huge fan of, you know, American franchising. Fast food, yeah. Your favorite cookbook of all time?

57:55Fermentation, Runeja Peroli. Yeah, it's a great book. Your favorite New York City restaurant right now? Muno. Yeah, Muno. It's doing great work. Did that make the Wells list? It did not make it. But, you know, Muno, I love their approach. You know, it's kind of a food course. If you don't like a food course kind of finding, but you can go to Muno. I strongly recommend the same quality of a course, but they have really authentic flavor Korean food. A couple more. Favorite city outside America to visit for food? Barcelona. Oh, right on. Oh, I love that city. Not Korea. No, you know, not Korea. It's Barcelona.

58:45That's where you're going to retire. Yeah. Barcelona. All right, a few more. Cuisine you would like to learn more about? Mediterranean. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Last one, your favorite sandwich. Egg sandwich. Like what kind? Let's go there. Egg salad? Yeah, egg salad. No way. Egg salad. Yes. Oh, shit. Because I'm not a fan of real sandwich person. Yeah. So sometimes I have, because I don't like kind of thick. First of all, I like soft bread. That's why egg sandwich. During sometime morning, I want to have milk with egg sandwich. It works for me. Yeah. That's a good one. Nadia Cho, this has been so fun.

59:21Thank you so much for joining This Is Taste. Thank you for having me.

59:29This Is Taste is hosted by Eliza Abarbanel and me, Matt Rodbar. The show is produced by Shalia Harris and Pat Stango and edited by Clayton Gumbert. Theme music by Steve Rydell. Visit Taste Online at tastecooking.com and make sure to subscribe to our newsletter for updates on all cool things that are happening.