391: Koreaworld with Cote and Coqodaq’s Simon Kim

28:59Those people who do, they can fuck themselves because that place is really good. I cannot agree more. And also, I feel like Peter Luger, David is a good friend of mine. I respect that restaurant so much. And people who need to shit on other places to elevate themselves, I feel remorse about them. Anyways. You and I got a little reel there. We're going to keep it in, though. We're keeping this edited in because, you know, we got Peter Luger's back. No, totally. And also, it's about nostalgia. It's about sports team. Like, it's not about like anything other than like I believe in it and I root for him and you can go fuck yourself.

29:36Anyways. No, totally. But goat is authentically me. I'm Korean and I'm American. So what I want to do is take what's best of a Korean barbecue, which is grilling on the table side. You smell it. You hear it. It's a great pastime. It's like nothing else. But what sucks about Korean barbecue can be you smell, you don't want to wear fancy clothes there, wine list, music, hospitality, reservation system, bathroom cleanliness, and the vibe. Because for me, vibe is everything. I don't really mind as long as it's a good version of itself, Japanese, Chinese, Greek, Italian, French, Korean. As long as it's a vibe, I want to go out.

30:27I think that's, don't get me wrong, food is so important. Quality of food is like, don't talk to, we can't talk about a restaurant without having quality ingredients, commitment to excellence. And we're in New York City. So once you have that, I think - There's more of those intangibles. There's actually creating a space that you want to order Chateau Neuf-de-Pape and pay 450 for the bottle, which is important for your margin, straight talk. And like Korean barbecue, especially with beef prices going up, the margin is different. It's more of a volume game. It is a little bit more unwieldy at times.

30:59It's changed a lot since you opened Coat, and plenty have learned from you, I would say. Because that's the thing, right? So it's the same with every culture. In Italian culture, there's trattoria, simple, simple wine list, house wine. And then there is a restaurante, where they have full wine list and tiered multi-course meal. French have a bistro. Bistro di Gostezion, yeah. And then there's a brasserie where it's a little more richer. Same thing with Korean. We just wanted to make Korean barbecue. I love barbecue because it's casual and awesome. But it's a Korean steakhouse. And that was, I think that was the aha moment, right?

31:44Like where it's not about barbecue. It's about steakhouse. And I think that allowed clients outing to corporate cards to more refined experiences. People can get it. Like I go to Steakhouse for a purpose. Closing dinners, celebrations, like things that are part of corporate culture. And you acknowledge a huge part about the restaurant industry in New York, which is the corporate card, the entertaining element. And Cote does that really well. I think it's so important as a restaurateur who, I'm a businessman. You know, I'm a restaurateur before anything else, a passionate hospitality professional.

32:24Ultimately, running a business in New York and being able to afford increasing cost, labors, and being able to really provide a real professional living to our employees. It's a real thing, right? So the way I look at it is you have to create a business that appeals to everyone. In a sense, the corporate cards, basically pre-tax corporate travel and entertainment budget has a lot bigger check average than a family outing, right? So what ends up happening, we will not be able to serve$74 butcher's feast that has dry-aged beef, American wagyu, kalbi, two stews, all these things. I will not be able to provide it because if you go to American Steakhouse, a filet mignon without anything is$80.

33:20Is$80. Yeah, totally. So how are we able to serve the entire thing at$74 with all these costs increasing? It's because we kind of subsidize. So the corporate cards who are spending a lot of money basically kind of subsidize so that we can provide$74 to families who are not necessarily drinking Chateauneau de Pops, right? People just want value. So they get to enjoy that. The most value-driven, in my humble opinion, so that we create that pretty robust ecosystem. So everybody kind of wins. And that is the formula that we want to create. Love the candidness, and it's really, really great to hear because it is straight talk about how corporate culture and corporate cards do create a cost structure for you to align with and be able to pass the savings on, so to speak.

34:11And I think it makes a lot of sense, especially with your fixed menu pricing, which has followed you at CocoDuck as well. Before we get to that, because I do want to get into your embrace of chicken, which is an exciting time. I interviewed you and Jenny Kwok from Hunyo and Elliot Park of Auto Boy and Auto Mix at the Korea Society. We took the stage February 2020, like February 27th. It was like days from the pandemic. So this is a pre-pandemic conversation. And I asked you about the moment in Korean food and really the excitement around it. And I asked you why. And you had a really great quote.

34:49Quote, we are just chill people and want to have fun. Very Simon Kim answer. I want to ask you now in 24, tell me, what is the same? Is the response the same or why is Korean food having a moment right now? Korean food is having a golden age right now and Korean culture as a whole. Korean drama and how much Netflix just invested billions of dollars into Korea. The content that Korea is making is really robust and exciting. But focusing on Korean food, I think Korean food is pretty well balanced. When I go to Europe, I have a hard time because I need lovage. I need kimchi. I need fermented probiotics and fibers and prebiotics and probiotics and that kind of a balanced diet, right?

35:39The yin and the yang, right? So we like to pair meat with vegetables. And we like to eat vegetable with little meat, right? That kind of a balance, I think, is really well-received. And fermentation, the probiotics, and the science behind healthy eating, gut biome, all those things are good. So if you think about it, I think geopolitical thing has a lot of things to do with it as well. So if you look at it, geography-wise, there's Japan that's closest. They adopted Western culture first because they discovered Japan first. and then there's Korea and then there's China. So I think there's this kind of a wave that's moving that direction.

36:22And also industry has a lot to do with it. So they all follow this direction. Japan, first they did manufacturing. Toyota, Panasonic, Sony, they made a lot of money in that. And then what they do is they invest that money into financial institutions like Mitsuri Sumitomo and these bank financial institutions start to make a lot of money. That's when the golden age is about to happen because manufacturing, you're still – there's a finite amount of margin, right? There's labor costs. There's hogs. But financial institutions start to make money that is a little more – It's exponential. Exactly. It's a higher multiple because that business is quite different than building circuit boards.

37:08Exactly. And when that is successful, they start investing into culture, whether that is music, art, restaurants. And I think that's when the golden age kind of happens because people can fund it. At the end of the day, you can have the best chefs and best restaurateurs, but without funding, you're kind of at moot. So I think that's kind of the phase. So Korea went through that phase. Hyundai, Samsung, and Korean banks kind of flourished. And now they're investing into this culture. And also what really helped was China. So Cold War between China and United States, like Japan, Korea, and then it was supposed to kind of move into this China wave, but China wave got shut.

37:57So in my humble opinion, Korea kind of got like, it stopped in Korea. So it's still there. And I'll also add, and we write about this in Korea World and we're dedicating this week to a lot of the topics in the book, I'd say a government that was aggressively investing in the arts and investing in building the culture and the soft power, I guess people at Monaco would say, soft power was important. And the Korean Food Foundation was one that I worked with directly in 2008. That was investment in food. And I think they made some good decisions. They made some less good decisions. But to have a government invest in culture as a way of bringing dollars into Korea and exposing the world to Korean culture was a wise investment too.

38:51Absolutely. I think government has took a great stance and current government of President Yoon and his first wife, first lady, definitely is investing a lot into Korean culture. And I think it's definitely seeing a huge, huge boom. And I'm very grateful. Goat got designated as an excellent restaurant, foreign restaurant outside of Korea. So I think those kind of recognition definitely gives us, the international players, kind of a little boost of confidence and appreciation from the motherland, which is so important because my parents are there. You know, when I get written up in New York Times, that's a great thing.

39:34But when I get written up in Korean newspaper, my parents are so delighted. It's actually pretty funny. I love to hear that. And it's cool that you talk about the geopolitics. I think you've really said some smart things and it's sometimes hard to weave politics and food together. But thank you for doing that, Simon. Yeah, my pleasure. So there's definitely that geopolitical kind of a geographical influence. But also, if you look at more qualitatively, Korea has been in wars, invasions, colonization. We went through a lot of difficult times. Hardships, to say the least. Authoritarian governments.

40:13authoritarian government student murder I mean like crazy stuff like that Gwangju massacre which I read about in Korea World is a big terrible part in Korean history and trauma traumatic exactly and during imperialism and dictatorship a culture cannot flourish right culture is one of the most beautiful thing right it's like flower it only blossoms when everything goes right and it And even if it doesn't, like there's basically Koreans, we call it Han, this generational angst, right? Because we wanted to, our culture to flourish, but it's very difficult when we're getting bombed, we're getting invaded.

40:57And there's a force that's trying to weed out our culture like purposefully. So I think we have this resilience and that built up desire to flourish. And finally, we've had this peace after the Korean War. And now that desire to flourish is what we're seeing. And this is our chance. This is our shot. And everybody's coming together to flourish our flower more beautifully. I love it. More metaphors. You're just nailing these metaphors. And I just want to add quickly, the scale of it all needs to be addressed. And I mentioned as much as I can. It's a country of 50 million people. Talk about the way 50 million people inspire and influence global economies, global culture.

41:43I mean, it's amazing to think about a culture that has had a war in its recent history, colonization in its recent history. And the adversity of the Koreans have overcome and not just overcome, have won and thrived. Big part of the story here. Absolutely. Let's talk about chicken. What a segue. I mean, I feel like it's we could go in many directions. And I wonder how did you realize that fried chicken was something that you wanted to take on and kind of rethink and recalibrate? Because, you know, what you're doing at Cocoa Duck is really interesting as an operator. The cost structure we'll get into.

42:27Culinary. I mean, you're making the McNuggets of our dreams. I mean, let's be honest. That's what they are. But you're doing some real cool things with a food that, like, Americans know. The idea came pretty simple. So after goat, David Shim, Chef SK, we finished work. We're like, let's go eat because we're always hungry after, you know, after a restaurant job. So we wanted to go out. We go to K-Town. We love fried chicken, Korean fried chicken with beer. It's just such a fun thing, especially after handling so much beef every day. So we're always looking for some alternative to beef, sushi, chicken, pork, are some of the things that we really enjoyed.

43:07But I'm also my father's son. So I'm pretty critical about what I put into my body. I can enjoy anything, but like to consistently get into it, I need high quality ingredients, right? Because as much as I love Popeye's, like I love just diving into that carnal joy, you know, the buttered biscuit. Oh my God, it's the best biscuit in the world, man. Oh my God, it's so good. I wonder what's in it though. Yeah, we don't need to go there. But see, exactly. But like, we don't need to go there, but I kind of do care, right? I have two children and I love this joy of sharing food. I think that is the most joyful time for me.

43:51Like being able to share food with your loved ones. It's literally the biggest and only joy that I can really think of, you know? So if that is the case, I can't do that with food. That is actively bad for you. That animal was raised with ill intent to raise faster, unhealthy, doesn't matter. You create ingredients and oils, seed oils that are known to be inflammatory. GMO'd flowers. These things are just intentionally bad. And I just couldn't find alternative to that's really joyful too. Because it's not about this healthy food. It's about this joy of enjoying amazing fried chicken, but that also happens to not have all these negative quality to it.

44:40And I couldn't find that. So we did it ourselves. Yeah. I mean, the culinary invention at Cocoa Duck and like, you know, the menu itself is fixed. You can do add-ons, same ideas as coat. You can have a really nice bottle. You can have a bunch of cocktails. But you can also get in there and in and out in an affordable way, I'd say. Man, I want to also talk about that authentic storytelling aspect. Yeah, yeah. Because it's so important for me to look at something and be able to tell its story in an authentic way. Because it's about that, right? Restaurant is a story. Without the story, it's an eating and drinking establishment.

45:15Yeah, it's nourishment. That's it. Right. And what we want is create a brand. And what made sense was, so I always thought if everybody loves chicken, like Americans love chicken. And if you look at the meat consumption per capita, chicken has been skyrocketing like an endivia stock price. We see it with the recipes, too. Recipe search is huge for chicken, obviously. Right. For the past 60 years, it never dipped. Whereas beef, fish, pork, they all have been kind of up and down. But chicken has been soaring up. So I think that was a validating thing. But it was just not about business. It was also about, because I'm, once again, I'm Korean and American.

45:58And when I looked into fried chicken, did you know, Matt, Korea has the highest number of fried chicken restaurant per capita in the world? Simon, yes, I did know that. Because I just went to Mom's Touch Lab in Songsu. Yeah, that's awesome. And yeah. If anyone knew, Matt knew. No, but thank you for bringing up that point. It's great. So, and I wonder why though, right? If you think about it, Koreans didn't eat fried chicken until Korean War. Yeah. So this was a complete full circle. So GIs, the soldiers during Korean War brought, because Koreans love to boil chicken and drink the soup. It's good because Korea was a developing country.

46:50So how can I cook one chicken and share it with the entire family? Samgyejang. Exactly. Make a soup so you can all drink the soup and get satiation and enjoy a little bit of meat, if you will. But when the U.S. Army came to Korea during Korean War, the GIs brought fried chicken. They're like, you know what? Let's fry chicken the way Americans do it. So Americans brought fried chicken, culture fried chicken to Korea. We developed it. We fell in love. And now we have the highest number of fried chicken restaurant per capita in Korea. So, and there's a culture, mu, you know, the pickled radish. So freaking good with fried chicken.

47:31Oh, it's the perfect. I mean, it's sweet to just the right level. And then it has sour at the low note. If we're talking about like music, it's like high note is sweet, low note is sour. And the crunchiness of it, the cold temperature, the texture. It's almost familiar because fried chicken is kind of crispy and the mu is crispy. but it's watery, kind of like the sweet vinegar washes off the residual fat that the chicken had. So you can eat more chicken. Everyone knows you need a pickle with a fried chicken sandwich. So, I mean, truly, it's the Korean version of the pickle. And Koreans kind of added their own flavor into what they adopted from America.

48:09So what I wanted to do is bring that and marry that with American fried chicken and create, once again, just like goat. it's a New York moment, right? It's basically, it's pretty complex, but it's pretty simple. Like Americans bring it to Korea. I bring it back from Korea to America with addition of our own flavors. Let's talk about the concept. I mean, walk us through the way it works. I'm just, I went there recently and I'll tell you about my meal, but people were lining up. Yeah. Like lining up before the, and everyone had a reservation. I know. People were lining up to even like with reservations.

48:45So that's a nice sign. Yes, so we have actually sittings in the front. We have about 20-something seats in the front that we don't pick reservations for. Oh, right, and those are the walk-ins. As well as, I believe, how many seats do I have at the bar? 18 seats at the bar. So we have about 38 seats that first come, first serve. And there's nothing that I'm more grateful for than people lining up. You know, it's like such a surreal moment. I saw on Instagram that your bartenders who were great by the way I ate at the bar solo. It was really fun. They brought out drinks for the people waiting in line.

49:20I thought that was a nice touch. Good hospitality. That's your style. Once again, I'm so grateful for my team. I don't ask them to do that. They just take it upon themselves. It's a culture. It's like John George. Back to your original days. It's taking care of it. So how am I dining at Cocoa Dog? Because I think it's, to the general consumer, it's like a little bit of a mystery. So it's such a new restaurant. Yeah. So dining at Cocoa Dog, number one, is going to be a hell of a good time. I think that's the most important thing. Like killer music. I got amazing track. I work with this guy named Michelangelo.

49:52He puts together our music list. Badass. Yeah. I mean, it's like definitely some boom bap from the 90s. I think you got like, you know, Black Moon playing. You've got some Q-Tip playing. You've got some of these, you know, Gangstar playing. Definitely a little bit of that thread, but then some R &B as well. Yes. So even before we talk about food, there's amazing track, amazing speaker. And also David Rockwell did a killer job. Yeah. Love the design there. it's kind of hard to believe that's a fried chicken restaurant. It sinks in the front, which I think is brilliant. I haven't seen that in a chicken restaurant in the States.

50:25I've seen that in Korea, but you know, you get your hands a little sticky. Yes. You got to have a sink. I don't know. I think there's something really sexy about everyone having clean hands. I would say sanitary more than sexy. That's the S word I would use, but I would say both of them are pretty. I think sanitary is kind of sexy. that's like something that Cuomo said during the pandemic I'm just joking sanitary is sexy is that right? I'm fucking right but I feel you but I like this idea that you can actually wash your hands when you're leaving no because as a restaurateur I shake so many hands and when I shake hands and the hand is really clammy it feels a little weird whereas at Cocodoc everyone's hands is really nice and fresh Yeah, yeah, right on.

51:12There's something really cool about that. Now, back to food. So at Gokodak, just like Coat, so we have this, at Coat, we have this thing called butcher's feast. $74. It's a very, very comprehensive menu that has basically appetizer, entree, savory meal and their siksa. Yeah. Ends with dessert, right? At Gokodak, we have this thing called the bucket list. the bucket list consists of a little like warm shot glass full of chicken consomme kind of shows you the quality of chicken that we're using it's highlighted a little bit with hongsam which is red jinseng to give you a little bit of boost of energy if you will and then the table gets studded with banchan, four different pickled stuff we have radish, we have celery we have kimchi, like cabbage kimchi, as well as a scallion salad.

52:14And then the first array arrives, which is OG, non-sauced, gluten-free, paste-raised bird, fried chicken that is delicious in a bucket. And once you are kind of gnawing on that almost halfway done, the second batch arrives, which is soy sauce glazed, soy garlic glazed, or gochujang glaze. You get to choose one. And then as you're finishing that, we give you this cold, wild perilla noodle with capellini noodles. Which I saw a lot in Korea in the past two or three years. It's a really, really cool idea that you're bringing here. Ho-chuk-ban is a great perilla noodle cold and I love that you're doing that.

52:56And we do it with Italian capellini noodles. And also when you're eating this fried chicken after fried chicken, you get a little fatigued with fried food. But this cold noodle kind of gives you this refreshing, savory, not yet dessert, savory kind of refreshment. So you get that rejuvenation from the fatigue of eating fried chicken. And then when you finish that, we give you frozen yogurt. Yeah, love that. Kind of a la Pinkberry. Yeah, it's like your version of naengmyeon. Doing the noodle naengmyeon is, I think, great, but not for everyone. But doing a cold refresh on the savory side and then going into it.

53:33Exactly. Really smart. So by the time you finish that frozen yogurt with a blueberry syrup, you're kind of like ready for round two. So if you're going out, if you have another thing after the dinner, you feel really plucked and really refreshed. And the best part, it's$38. Yeah, I'm glad you said that. The entire thing. I'm glad you said that because the fixed pricing is smart. And same idea, like you're getting, you can definitely ball out if you want, right? There's ways to do that. 1 ,000%. And in Korea, we do chimek, which is chicken and beer. What we do at Cocoduck is chi sham, which is chicken and champagne.

54:13So Victoria James, you know her, the badass. She basically put together literally the largest champagne list in America. Wow. So I believe we have over 500 labels now. So if you're looking for, if you want to go, if you want to take us for a ride, we can go. Are you going up to Ream? Are you guys going to do like a Cocoa Duck Ream? You're going to do a little pop up up in Champagne? Hey, why not? Right. Once again, everybody loves fried chicken. So I feel like with fried chicken, I can go anywhere and please people. Last question before we get to our last section. I know you have expansion plans, but like dig deep for this answer.

54:46What, Simon, is the concept, the Korean concept, the Simon Kim concept of your dreams? What is that restaurant that you will one day do maybe in 10 years? But what is the dream? Honestly, I'm so grateful that I'm living my dream. I feel okay. Yeah, because I feel like coat and coconut are my dreams. And now I'm living that. So doing that. But I think there's endless things that I want to do. I feel like there's a seafood concept I want to do. I think you know what I'm talking about. I think which is lacking in New York. hue, right? Yeah, man. Because we all know about sushi and sashimi, but I think there's a huge discovery to be had for the seafood.

55:30Can I just jump in about hue? I feel it's such a cool idea and concept that is challenging for Americans because of chojang. Right. Because of the red, you know, the crimson sauce with vinegar. I love it. I mean, Huni did a great hue at Hanjeon. That was amazing. I'd love to see you rise to that occasion because I feel Hawaii has not had its moment in New York yet. On This Is Taste, we asked guests about the discerning taste. So to close this interview, here's a little rapid-fire, fast and furious taste check. Are you ready? Yes. The best fruit? Watermelon. The worst vegetable? Eggplant. Why? It just doesn't jive with me.

56:11I mean, eggplant parm is, I love that. But other than that, eggplant is just kind of like... Skin stuff. Yeah. It's a tough hang. Agreefully, the best dessert. Pavlova or baklava? We're having a pavlova moment in America right now. I love pavlova. It's good when it's good. Because it's so light with meringue. It's like low in calories, but the bang for the buck is like the amount of pleasure. It's elegant. It's kind of like - It looks dope. It looks beautiful. Like passion fruit pavlova. I mean, it just sounds so elegant and nice. I had a really good one at Major Domo a couple of weeks ago. It was nice.

56:46That's cool. Your favorite American fast food chain? Shake Shack or In-N-Out. That's like left brain, right brain. I mean, how do you, how do you, that's like the most diplomatic answer. See, I like, I like that because I am, I am and kind of guy. If somebody asked me this or that, dude, why choose? You know, I live in America where I kind of have it all. Into it. Favorite cookbook of all time? Nobu's original cookbook. I don't know it. So cool. Yeah, I think it was published in the early 90s. I think that was my first experience holding a cookbook. And I remember it being as a teenager reading that book, how the pictures, how intuitive and how easy to understand.

57:35I think I can make that miso cut from that moment. That's incredible that you say that dish. I love that dish. I love that dish. I mean, that dish has been copied. I love it. It's been copied like one million times. It's like pavlova. Once you make it, like it's a classic. I love it. Okay. A favorite New York City restaurant that you do not own or operate? Don Angie. Cool. Yeah. Cool answer. I love Scott's sourdough pasta with chicken and olive. I feel like I have – it's such a simple dish. It's not like fancy, fancy food. But I vividly remember that simple pleasure of eating that pasta, the fluffy dough with chicken perfectly cooked, olive.

58:18Yeah, that was a moment. Favorite Los Angeles restaurant? LA to me is Koreatown, right? Because I can't just, there's so many great restaurants, but I can't escape Koreatown because I long it. There's a restaurant called Sungbukdong. Oh my gosh, Sungbukdong is a jam. Yeah. Have you been to Yangmani? Do you know that spot? I have not been to Yangmani. I know the spot, but. Yeah, Sungbukjang. Good shit, man. Yeah. LA expansion. It's got to be on your horizon. I do think I definitely want to be there. But when and how, we shall see. You pick up those 310 phone calls when you get those. 100%. I'm ready.

58:58I love it. Call me later. Exactly. Your favorite city outside America to visit for food? I like Busan. Busan is the second city of Seoul. It's port city. the seafood there, the hue, it's epic. But everything, even galbi, there's haeundae amsogalbi, which is fantastic, that's going through renovation. Bobby from Yoon's in New York, that's his family business. So I'm excited for that renovation. But jagalchi sijang is the big market there. Yeah, there's restaurants upstairs, you get the fish down, you go up there, catch it. And Busan has this kind of, kind of like Miami vibe. Interesting. People are a little more like they got gold chains.

59:44Yeah. You know, people are just a little more animated. Port Town. I love Port Town. Big film festival there. I mean, it has artistic community. Busan is. Exactly. Busan's a cool, I mean, it's beautiful too. It's like around the ocean. Seoul, just like first cities, like even New York, Madrid compared to Barcelona, you know? Yeah. I think Barcelona has a little more romance, right? There's a little more romance. Like the first city is always like go, go, go, go. Whereas Busan has this kind of beach town. It's like South Beach. It's fun. Nightlife is fun. The food stalls and Huey Chip. It's just good times.

1:00:20Yeah, Huey Chip is definitely more of a party town. Busan and, of course, Tokyo. Love those choices. Last question, your favorite sandwich. My favorite sandwich. I think it's, I grew up in Long Island, so I love Long Island Deli. It's like a roll, peppered turkey, Swiss cheese, lettuce, tomato, honey mustard. Plot twist. I like that. Yeah. I like honey mustard a lot. Me too. What kind of roll? Just like a poppy seeds. Poppy roll. Yeah. Making me hungry. I love it. What a great chat. Thank you, Simon Kim, for joining This Is Taste. Matt, much, much love, and thanks for having me.

1:01:05This is Taste is hosted by Eliza Abarbanel and me, Matt Rodbar. The show is produced by Shalia Harris and Pat Stango and edited by Clayton Gumber. Theme music by Steve Rydell. Visit Taste online at tastecooking.com and make sure to subscribe to our newsletter for updates on all cool things that are happening.