393: Los Angeles Loves and Hates with Jordan Okun & Max Shapiro

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0:31and also long form restaurant reviews the people that are writing them they don't talk about service because they don't know service they don't know beverage and there's also the taste factor if you have bad taste who's going to want to read what you're writing

0:50this is taste I'm your host Matt Rodbar

0:59Big boy Los Angeles food podcasters have entered the studio. It was so great catching up with the dynamic duo of Jordan Oken and Max Shapiro, the voices behind the Air Jordan podcast and some of the L.A. food scene's spiciest takes. On this episode, we hear all about what is good, what is extremely bad, and what is like kind of mid in the Los Angeles dining scene. If you're interested in Los Angeles dining, you gotta tune in, and I hope you enjoy this episode.

1:36Jordan Okun and Max Shapiro, welcome to This is Taste. Guys, what's up? What's up? How you doing? Well, I'm good. I mean, Max, you're hungover. You were at Stella last night. It's not like a full-blown hungover. I'm just maybe a touch slow. Okay, fair enough. So you walk into our studio. We're here in L.A. We're recording live or on tape. And you're both wearing all black, like doing it. Who died? My dignity. No, I always wear all black. This is the uniform. I love it. It's very slimming. We need to do anything we can do. Matt, you're wearing way too many colors. We're not on Ozempic yet. Max maybe, but no one else here is.

2:18No, I eat way too much. We're not on the Ozempi, so it's like the black clothes help. Are they going to have Ozempic shakes at some point where we don't have to shoot up? I hope so. Why are you scared of shooting up? No, I love a good shot once in a while. You love a good shot? Yeah, like a good shot. No, but some people are. Intervenous non-drugs, that's what I'm into. Some people are scared of the shot and won't do it, but I don't think it seems like a big deal. I think, yeah, there's a lot of reasons why that shot is actually happening. and people are overcoming their fears. You were at Stella last night.

2:51Yeah. Did you eat there? Yeah. Okay. But don't you have a reservation on Friday? I do. So I got to back up and say, I love the hijack of the interview with Jordan. It's so good. Sorry. I'll control myself. He doesn't know any other way. It's expected. And I love your show. And I'll just like, I'll say this quick. I love the show. I think Air Jordan is a really essential show for LA. If you come to LA, you should listen to the show. I mean, it's really good. You guys do a great job. Thank you. And that's right here. But are you on the payroll at Stella? I'm not on the payroll I mean I love so many of the people involved I really I just want to support them And make sure that Cool You know food's coming out right Service is doing a good job The bar's doing a good job And if I'm not there as a guest Kind of giving them lots of feedback I think it'll take a lot longer for them To get to where they want to be So when you say them Are you just like friends with them and you're just doing like a good citizen here?

3:48Yeah, I mean, Rob Gentile has become one of my best friends. The chef de cuisine, Sarah Fiore, I'm really close with. I like it. Janet Zuccarini, I talk to all the time. Okay. I just, I want to see them succeed. It's cute. It's your guys. And I love it. It's like, it's part of restaurants. If you become friends with a chef, you want to support them. Right. All right, Jordan, starting with you. I just like the way you, on your show for years, have, you know, you're catty. Like, you have opinions. You can be bitchy, but you don't pile on, which I like. You like have a little bit of restraint. You also talk a little shit about the New York media, which I kind of like being a member of them.

4:24Let me ask you, what's the biggest story in L.A. food that no one's talking about? Max is going to like this one. Oh, give it to me. Well, you know, Travis Led has been absent for a while now. And we hear he's coming back in a big way. We hear he may be relaunching an old beloved restaurant of his. And, you know, L.A. media puts out hottest openings or most important openings that are happening a couple of days ago. And it's just it's nowhere there. No one's talking about it. Back up. What is he famous for for our listeners that we don't know who he is? He started Jelena. Exactly. Shut from Jelena Mountain.

5:09Juiced. Jelena, New York. is part of this like being away I would imagine reopening soon and you know he was part of LA getting on the map as far as our being in the conversation nationally as you know a food destination and he's been absent and I feel like his absence and Max could speak to this better than I can but has been felt um and uh I'm excited for him to come yeah good one what about you do Max, do you have a story that is being slept on? It's not necessarily a story. I agree with Jordan. People aren't hip to the Travis Lett upcoming restaurants. It's going to be two. Okay. I think that people aren't talking about how there's an insane lack of hospitality professionals in Los Angeles.

5:58You can't find any good GMs anymore. Somoes, servers, cooks. It's just, we know friends that are opening restaurants. they can't find anyone. And, you know, even with Stella, it's been so hard. They don't even have a sommelier on the floor right now. We're talking this is a huge restaurant. They can't get anybody. The talent pool is just non-existent and no one's talking about it. Yeah, I think New York struggles with that as well. I mean, we obviously have to figure out the economics of restaurants and get those guys paid to be on the floor, right? But also a lot of these people have moved on to doing other things.

6:34I see, I see. You know, a lot of the great wine professionals before, they're now like brand ambassadors and they work for big name vineyards or companies and they no longer want to work in a restaurant. Well, yeah, the hours are better. Yeah, I get it. But what about the young bucks coming up and cutting their teeth? Where are they at? Jordan, or each of you, but start with Jordan. What's the one restaurant that you feel is just like hyper, hyper, hyper underrated? You know, it does feel like, and I'm taking another page from Max, but that Dunsmore is somehow still underrated. I mean, there are reservations available most nights.

7:13And yes, it is further away city-wise from where most people want to drive every night. Dunsmore is like Arts District or downtown? No, it's Glass Hill Park. Oh, it's Glass Hill. Oh, interesting. It's northeast Los Angeles. But other restaurants out there are busy, and I just feel like people who I trust, the time I was there, people who I trust, there's so much good talk coming out of there that it should be more of a thing. Yeah. Max, what about you? I'm going to have to give that to my guy, Shunji. he's getting snubbed left and right by michelin all the listicles and he's a literal sushi master and he's he's completely underrated and overlooked jordan backing up you know how did you fall into this role or maybe not fallen that's actually a little pejorative how did you establish this role as like a guy who who has his opinions and started a podcast and and many like in the industry listen to your show that many don't admit it i'm sure but i think like you're you're an influencer but you worked in entertainment before how did this like evolve yeah i mean so i wrote i'm a writer and wrote a book uh about a kid in la uh who went to a lot of restaurants right it was like a kid trying to make it in hollywood and part of that is going to all the hot restaurants at the time and after that I was selling some television projects and I was noticing that every single general meeting I was going into based off the book and the pilots no one wanted to talk about really writing or what I was doing next they just wanted to talk about the restaurants and the food and if I was going to the places I was writing about because all of the work that I do I like to create LA as a character in a background and use our restaurants.

9:09So I was noticing that half the meetings were just these executives who I want to get work from wanting to just know where should I go? Mining you for all your, your Rolodex. Right. So then I started thinking, all right, well, these people obviously care a tremendous amount about food. I should start writing about food and talking more about food to get their attention, to get my voice into their heads more and maybe they'll want to work with me on you know scripts uh so i started writing and i was able to create a voice and a style of writing that i did not think existed in los angeles it was a lot of first person it was it was my own mandate and that worked for a while and i was that what do you know not no i my first article was uh for eater i was like the only I was the only person in like Dan Tana's 50th anniversary party, which was shut down.

10:03And I was always pitching publications and I, they would never get, take my pitches. And I woke up the morning after and I was like, Jesus, I was the only one there. So I pitched it out and either was like, Oh yeah, do it. I mean, especially if you have photos. So I was able to write in a way that I thought was fun and different than everything else in food media at the time. And that was working for a while and I was writing for almost everybody in LA. But eventually the editors kind of took over and their mandates took over and I wasn't able to sound how I wanted to sound. Well, we kind of exited the bloggy blog era and entered like the algorithm era where like service was super important and maybe voice-driven content writing was not as important.

10:49yeah i just like if i wrote for eater la you have to sound like eater la if you wrote for timeout you have to sound like timeout or la magazine or you to try to do something out of the box creatively everyone wasn't that interested in interesting so i thought then the best way to get my voice out there was to get my voice out yeah you know there were a couple of la food podcasts at the time that it just ended so no one was doing uh no one was doing out to tall tales right Jason it was the stew or the stew right Jason's other podcast the stew that was the one I listened to as well before yeah uh that had ended um and so I thought oh the best way to get my voice out there is literally to get my voice out there and I kind of strategically brought in friends from Hollywood and just wanted to sound remain sounding different than all of food and it really does I mean I love the inside baseball it's definitely appreciated I think that You aren't trying to tell everyone for every episode where to dine.

11:49You're doing your own bits, which I think is cool. Are you really going to retire? You've been threatening it for a while. Well, look. Stop smiling. Just like MJ, right? MJ had a couple of retirements, right? I see what you do. And if we're Air Jordan, the first retirement may be coming. So, Max, I want to get to you. Yeah. You're a reality TV star. You're a Division I hooper. A true Jewish Division I baller. You're LA real estate royalty, it seems. So how do you fit into this conversation with Jordan? Because your guys are obviously really close. You're on the show a lot. But you also have your own unique take on restaurants that I find very cool.

12:33Yeah, I mean, I'm the resident know-it-all with some knowledge and experience to back it up. Since I was 10 years old I've been obsessed with food And cooking and learning All things restaurant And I've traveled the world To eat at the best restaurants in the world I started an underground fine dining restaurant Out of my home for 7 plus years You know we did 16 courses 11 beverage pairings Had an 11 ,000 person waiting list Wait stop back up for a sec So are you doing the cooking? Yeah yeah yeah Yeah, I was the chef. I was the florist. I was the reservationist. I was janitorial. I mean, you posted an image of your fridge and you had like three-year-old Muboshi and I was like, guy knows fermentation.

13:24Eight, eight-year-old. Sorry, strike that, Clayton. But I told you that that was a mistake. Yeah, it was a mistake, but it worked out pretty well. So, Max, you clearly love cooking at the highest level. I mean, you're really, you got some nice skills. it um it's my creative outlet or at least it was my creative outlet i stopped cooking uh regularly years ago um but you know i'm in a profession that has zero creativity which is residential real estate so this is the outlet yeah does it help with your client service game to have like a really nice home kitchen do you bring over clients do you do some cooking for them no i've I've noticed that wealthy people really don't give a shit about food and they have horrible taste.

14:11Yeah. Yeah. What's the one restaurant that kind of illustrates this thesis that you're putting out in Los Angeles? I mean, there's anything on Cannon Drive. I was just at Cipriani the other day. Yeah, Cipriani. They love Cipriani. It's like you're basically receiving food that's been plated two hours ago and you order it and 30 seconds later it hits the table. they're they're like they're they're they're heat lamp bill is like you know more than most restaurants pretty much electricity bills yeah what i mean let's let's go there i mean why we're talking about the ultra rich i mean we talk about also like private clubs as well as part of dining but what are some other restaurants that the ultra rich are going to that maybe opera trash opera it's it's a greek restaurant that's massive it's like a torah portion it to like opera a greek restaurant it's like the the mulos rip off oh i see yeah you you get to pick your fish off the off the display yeah where they're on the ice and then they get to completely overcook uh the fish for you yeah that's that's definitely like in new york there's like a few places in midtown by my office that are like that yeah i gotta avoid those places yeah yeah i mean they just it's all about the you know just schmoozing and being seen and you know anyone that goes to like catch yeah get out of here what about craigs what's your take on that it's it's inedible food but it's a scene yeah yeah um so jordan let me ask you about about la uh the rich people uh paradigm that we're getting into what do you think about the ultra rich are they are there any spots that you could that come to mind that that you like frustrate you that are popular no i mean they don't front i mean look it's only frustrating when like someone wants to go to nobu Malibu and it's the most impossible reservation in LA and you, you know, you have to jump through a thousand hoops, but I don't mind these restaurants.

16:03And, you know, I grew up going to some of these restaurants as did Max. And, you know, our careers up to this point have brought us into these restaurants. And so there's a level of appreciation for them. Everything is not about food every restaurant experience is not about food and so there is a level of appreciation and i mean strangely sometimes feeling at home in these type of restaurants although i did not feel at home at chibriani yeah the other just opened right it's a pretty new thing yeah you can't feel at home there in a lot of la needed but no one else needed i guess i mean They're doing well.

16:45There is a long list of New York restaurants I would have preferred to come here that are refusing to come here for whatever reason. We can definitely get into that. I've talked to plenty. It's a tough one. I want to ask you, Jordan and then Max. It seems that, Jordan, you want Max to be a TikTok star. And I want to get your sense about these backseat reviews that seem to be quite popular. I feel these backseat reviews, they're weird. It's like this combination of celebrity is like a little bit of algorithm gaming. There's like some PR freebies in there. But like for whatever reason, this is like the biggest thing in food media right now.

17:25We have to like call it as it is. So you want Max to be one of these guys. Well, I want Max to do his version. I want to see an elevated, more articulate version of this. I don't want him sitting in his fucking car, you know, getting Shunji to go. Right. I don't want that. What I want is for for these people. And if Max did it to just try to not be so derivative of each other. Right. Because they're all they're all as unfunny as the next. They are all visiting the same places. They are all eating the same food and rating the same food. And honestly, I watch it. Right. Yeah. Well, kind of, at like 20 % battery length.

18:10It's not really, you know. This is the slop that is sloshing around in our phones, right? And I was just hoping and thinking that Max, who is the most frustrated with these people, right? Because it is such easy content, right? And it's like this dirty piece of candy that everyone accepts. Followings go up because of it, right? And then they become this authority or this supposed authority on things where most of these people are not educated about food, right? Now, by the way, I am not educated about food, but I am clearly coming at this from like— Well, love, passion. A love, yeah, but like also like comedy, right?

18:55Sure. I am trying to be entertaining and funny about things, and that's why I have him there. I mean, it's like we are the yin and the yang, and it's why it kind of works. You know, I am South Beverly Grill sushi and Diet Coke, and he's at Sun G with champagne. You know, it couldn't be more different. Great foils. I think you're right about the entertainment value of these backseat, these TikTokers, and just like they're the joyless. And I think I'll push back. I think like food education is a sliding scale. I think if you eat out enough, you pay for enough meals, you go to enough places, that's education.

19:29So I think you're pretty educated. I mean, you haven't gone to school for it, but whatever. I don't know what school is for a food writer, frankly. Yeah, I mean, look, I think if someone came at it from a different angle, right? And what I try to do creatively, which is when I write or when I'm doing a podcast, I want to sound different than everyone else doing it, right? And try to go a creative way, in a fresh way. and I think he could deliver a fresh way to these on-camera reviews from someone who is a bit of an authority. So we set it up, Max, and definitely if you hit Max's Instagram, really good, like really, really thoughtful.

20:10I think there's like the entertainment value there per Jordan's note, and I think that there is a need for like real paying for your meals content. So are you up for the challenge? Are you going to do it? I don't think I have the time. Someone needs to sponsor me. I mean, if I'm going to spend all that time doing this, I got to get paid because I'm already spending enough time. But you're already doing it. But I'm not on camera. You got to get the$300 lav. You got to get the camera. You got to get the guy to edit it. Yeah, it's a whole thing. I don't know. Unfortunately, we are in a period where the written word is less engaging than these videos.

20:51I'm old school. He's thoughtfully writing out reviews, but it's not leading to a following that he's able to truly transcend. No. Let's also get real. When Jordan says you're writing, you're literally writing Instagram captions. So, I mean, I think that that's, like, I agree with you, Jordan, fully. Like, people are not reading as much. We need to get into podcasts and more visual mediums. But, I mean, think about, like, long-form restaurant reviews. Who's reading those? I mean, we have Bill Addison in later. I'm going to talk to him about that. I feel like that's it's challenging right now to get people to care.

21:24Well, I think the challenge with with these are now our food authorities, as Jordan said, you know, everyone eats and everyone has an opinion. But there's no accounting for taste. No, no. And there's no education. I mean, you can people eat all the time. They don't understand what they're eating. They don't understand how what they're eating got in front of them. They don't know the inner workings. And that's what bothers me about these people. And also long form restaurant reviews, the people that are writing them, they don't they don't know. They don't talk about service because they don't know service.

22:03They don't know beverage. And they and there's also the taste factor. Yeah. If you have bad taste, who's going to want to read what you're writing? Yeah. I mean, great point. I think we align with certain critics because we have visited the restaurants they're reviewing. And I'm like, I'm down with Pete Wells. I personally align with his taste. I feel like I'm down with him. Okay. But I feel like there's other critics I'm not. And I just don't go to those restaurants. Right. And you can tell they don't criticize anymore other than Pete who will trash a place. Yeah. Most of them don't. I see. They don't criticize anymore.

22:37Yeah. They'll take a place that has a lot wrong with it and they'll sugarcoat it. And somehow it ends up being something that they're recommending you go to. Yeah. When you shouldn't. It's tricky. And God forbid you critique the critics, you know, because they can't handle that. Yeah. And that's part of the pushback that we've gotten. Yeah. Which is like people are putting themselves out there. They're criticizing these restaurants, right? They're possibly hurting business or helping business. But like they're not down to be reviewed. And we take joy in reviewing the reviewers. I take a lot of joy.

23:12No, you guys do talk about a little of the inside food media baseball, which I think you just like subscribe and check it out. Let me ask you, Max, working in residential real estate, you see some spots. What is the sickest home kitchen you've seen? There was a house that I showed to a client probably like seven years ago on a street called Oak Pass, which is in Beverly Hills Post Office up in the hills of Beverly Hills. Shout out West Home. Shout out West Home. Yeah. West Home House. This kitchen had a wood-burning grill, a wood-burning oven, the whole Gaggenau modular suite of appliances. You had deep fryers, planchas, induction, walk burner, regular gas burners, you know, multiple warming drawers, refrigerator drawers.

24:05it was totally decked out I have no idea how they got the wood burning grill and oven permitted for indoors but this thing was sick and I'm sure the person that bought it has never used it it was a 30 million dollar house people with 30 million dollars they usually don't give a shit about cooking that's just sad their chefs were probably using it maybe they have a chef what was the colorways what were we looking at here it was all black black marble with, you know, white veining and, uh, veining. Yeah. The veins in the, you like that veiny kitchen. Yeah. It's a very veiny. Um, yeah, it was, it was, and there were, you know, just great accents to everything in it.

24:47And it was a kind of a timeless look. What's the one item you can add to a home kitchen just to like up the value of your house or at least up the pleasure of your home cooking experience from your, from your real estate point of view Value, probably nothing. Yeah. What you have in your kitchen really isn't going to drive value. If you're someone who cooks, I think that more refrigeration, I think warming drawers, you can warm your plates, keep sauces warm, things like that. Air fryer? Air fryer? Yeah. Get out of here. George Foreman. I mean, a low boy refrigerator in a kitchen, if you can sneak that in, that's it.

25:23That's like the best thing to have. Lowboys, you can't really clad. Yeah. But Sub-Zero and other companies, Thermador, they make refrigerator drawers. Oh, that's what I'm saying. So that would be akin to a lowboy. I see. So lowboys, that's not the right term. I get it. But a lowboy, I mean, you're talking restaurants. Yeah, yeah. I'm thinking in the same vein. Okay, name names like celebrities who have great kitchens, which is you Benin. Jimmy Kimmel, I know, has a great kitchen. Yeah. And a great setup. Other than that, people just, I mean, they just have normal kitchens. I know he customizes his kitchen To have a lot of things For his staff He cooks What's he making I don't know what he's making Did he make you something No I've heard I've seen some photos and I've heard Alright alright So Jordan you worked in film development And I want to ask you What's catering like On sets I've talked to like Giddy Glick and Phil Rosenthal and others.

26:27I wonder if you've had experiences in writers rooms where there's been good food. So I worked for this Trumpian motherfucker who would bring in KFC for bankers and would fight employees for his chocolate covered dove bars in the freezer. I did not have the foodie, you know, everybody loves Raymond writing room experience. According to people I've spoken to, no one did it like Phil. So I did not have that. I mean, we have friends who are writers and, you know, look, takeout is takeout. Like it's only going to be so good. So, yeah, they'll get a tray of chivichangas from Sonoratown, right? But like how good could the chivis be after an hour?

27:21You can't do takeout Mexican. I'm sorry. And everyone's not reheating, you know, when they get it. So it's just like takeout's takeout. People know the good takeout to get. But how good could it be? Both of you, best either wrap party or premiere party food-wise for a project, either a TV show, a film, or directors, like personal stash. My brain's, the wheels are spinning. Well, speaking of Jimmy Kimmel, you know, a few years ago, he threw an after party after the Oscars. And I mean, he had his whole crew there. I mean, he had APL doing sliders. Yeah. Prime rib sliders. He had Chris doing pizza.

28:03He had, you know, he had Mark out from Philly doing pasta for everyone. Wow. So it was something. Mark of the Vetri. It was someone. He's a fly out guy. It was something. And Chris wasn't out here yet. He was still in Phoenix. And Adam wasn't really out here four years ago or five years ago. It was right before COVID. That was probably the best. I don't think he's doing that party anymore, though. Yeah. He did a good job with the Oscars. What about you, Max? Any memorable wrap parties? No, I've not been to that party. I've never been to a wrap party or anything where food was even remotely thought of in a positive way.

28:46Yeah, I mean, Chris and Coco for the bear, they did like some screenings of the first two episodes before it was out, before it dropped, before it was this monster. And Courtney was doing, you know, she was doing Chicago Dogs and that was. And Coco's doing the Ices. And she was doing the Coco to Go-Go's. Yeah, I love that. Ices and that was a good one. I love that either. Speaking of the bear, it's a good segue. It's funny. I was at the James Beard Awards like two months before the bear came out. And Jeremy Allen White's in the green room, like with all the journalists at the show at the show, because he had presented literally zero people talk to the guy.

29:32He was just like sitting in the corner. And it just made me think about where we are now in the show. And like, especially L.A. The show is based in Chicago, obviously, but it's it's an L.A. creation because a lot of people who work on the show live here let me ask you first off jordan what is this show meant for hollywood in terms of development in terms of interest in the food world you're very early and plugged is your phone ringing a little bit more no look i mean there was so clearly a void in the scripted world for the right food show for the right restaurant show and all previous attempts were embarrassing failures right uh so they were so clearly avoided and someone needed to fill it and i think chris did beautifully and is doing it beautifully uh i don't know if it's leading to more interest in it you know it's uh before entourage there was not a hollywood show that really worked and you know no matter what you think about entourage it was a massive success and you know there hasn't really been the quintessential hollywood show after that you know i know seth rogan's now uh about to do one for apple so we'll see we'll see how that is uh but i i don't know i hope it leads to more scripted uh food shows and But it's tough, man.