396: Robert Sietsema & Luke Pyenson

28:18I would staple them together. I sent them to all of my rock friends because the whole purpose of this, among other things, was to provide something to do between your sound check when you were in a band and could be playing just about anywhere. Between your sound check and when you went on at two in the morning, there were hours when you could travel to another restaurant. You didn't have much money. You wanted to eat. You wanted to eat something fun and interesting and cheap. And so that's the whole purpose of that. And but perversely, I also would send copies to all of the editors at publications that I read just to kind of kick their asses for not featuring this kind of food.

29:02I mean, I both wanted them to start reporting on this and I probably secretly wanted them to hire me. Yeah, of course you want. It was a little bit of a resume. Are we talking like Grimes? Are we talking about Rachel? Are we talking about who you send them to? I can tell you who I didn't send them to. One day I got a scratchy phone call from Los Angeles, someone who in a halting sort of way asked if I would send it to him. And I told him that I didn't think that it was too hard. I spent too much time folding and stapling and mailing things. And then I didn't think that anyone in California needed to hear about.

29:42And of course, this is in the early 90s and it was Jonathan Gold. Who I later became close friends with. I remember seeing the two of you together at a couple parties. And it was fun to have a conversation with the two of you together. I sent it to The Voice. I sent it to the critics. I sent them to Ruth Reichel. I sent a whole bunch of people. And I was proud to be covering this beat. And I felt like what I was doing was sufficient. I had no dreams of being a professional food writer or a professional writer at all. You didn't think of yourself as a critic or a writer at that time? Oh, not at all.

30:19More of a fan. More of a kind of a crazy in-the-closet artist making these like weird little things. But they were very detailed. I mean one issue – and I will have you back to talk in detail about Under Down the Hatch. But you did a whole Portugal issue, which was great. It was like your vacation to Portugal. Yeah, the beauty of that was – Thank you so much. The beauty of that was that I could write about anything I wanted. Yeah. Period. And if I went to Portugal, I would like write about it. If I went to Africa, I would write about it. If I went to someplace different than what you expected, I would write about it.

30:56And what else? That was just – it was empirical. It was what was in front of me. I wasn't like sitting there thinking, how can I get a thousand extra hits and run up the traffic by putting this pizza in here or doing whatever? But, I mean, it was a reason to dine out. I mean, you're working these jobs, you're making a living to pay the rent, but you also have a monthly deadline. And you clearly – the reason you're so successful in food writing is obviously your ethic. I mean, you have a work ethic. You really want to drive and get down – would you write every night and then collect it once a month?

31:34I mean, it's coming out monthly. And we're talking probably 5 ,000 words an issue, maybe 8 ,000 words. It's a fair amount, but, you know, almost that amount in today's climate, at least for a web writer, seems laughable. Sure. I can remember when I first worked at The Voice, I would produce one review a week. Yeah. That was considered the typical workload for a professional full-time writer. and I frankly don't remember what I did with all that time because, you know, as I continued to do it as a job and as the demands of the web ballooned, you know, I can remember Amanda Kloot, who was one of the founders of, you know, of Eater.

32:22She told me that when she first worked there, she was required to do 10 posts per day. And all I can say is I'm really, I first, I was in on the ground floor with the Village Voices website. And I wrote a lot for that. Later, Gourmet started a website and all the writers were like crying about, oh, I'm not going to get paid enough. And I shouldn't, I don't want to do this. This cheapens the writing or whatever. And I'm going like, no, I want to do this. Yeah. Because you have the metabolism, you have a high metabolism for restaurants and you want to get the word out. And that's what a true journalist and writer wants is to get the word out.

33:00Let's actually talk about The Voice. You had established that you had sent your down the hatch issues to the editor there. How did you end up getting a job there? Did you have a desk at that old Cooper Square building? Were you, I mean, these weekly columns were well read and the voice was read by everyone in New York. I know. And I look back on those days kind of longingly because, and did it with Gourmet, that, you know, you wrote something and yes, it would end up in a stack in somebody's summer house, but people actually saw your writing. A lot more people, they, you know, I'm sure most of them kind of like were on the subway, like paging through the Village Voice and they would like read the first three words and go on to the next article or whatever.

33:46Fine with me. Because now, you know, your readers are counted in the thousands and tens of thousands rather than in the millions. The Village Voice had a circulation of, I don't know, in, well, Gourmet, it was like three million, I think. Yeah, Gourmet had a lot more. But then The Voice. The Voice had 500 ,000 or something. But for a city, you know, restaurants in this packed city, when they got The Voice call out from you, I mean, they instantly became hits. You were a hit maker. And that was great. I mean, that's no longer really true. But it was really, really fun. When I first started working there, I went in to see Jonathan Larson.

34:27Now, what had happened was that Michael Weinstein, the previous critic there, and a wonderful union activist and a really great guy, he went off to six months to Australia or something. And they asked me – he was the one that recommended that I take over for him, not my wonderful editor, Robert Criscow, who was like a rock writer. He was your editor. He taught me. He was my editor. It's amazing. He was like – he was an amazing editor. He taught me – I mean I've learned so much from every one of my editors and they've changed my attitude toward writing and he was great. The way he edited was he would like he wanted to be with you in person, which was my real contact with the voice in a way.

35:17So great. Called you in the office. No, he usually just did it at home, but it could be the office, too. And he would just sit there and he would just take things out. He would like, you know, this is he took things out. He changed other things. He switched them around, but he did it really fast. And it was like, it was a revelation that you should mercilessly go over your own work in that sort of way. It's a great lesson. Are you guys still in touch? When our daughters had a falling out, they were 13 years old. We never saw each other after that, other than the occasional passing of the street or something.

35:55It shows, and I'm sure you've experienced this before, too, that you could have a professional relationship that was fruitful and warm and productive. And then, like, all of a sudden it just stopped. Personal stuff can end, yeah. It's like an office fling or something. Yeah, it's an office relationship. When I'd gone in for the first time, which was in like 1993 to first do the column, Jonathan Larson had told me that he didn't want me in the office because they couldn't afford a desk or a chair. And so I was one of the first people in what became known as the electronic cottage. That's the word of work from home.

36:34You know, it was the modem that made this possible. This is before even the internet, but you would send your copy in, you know, over that phone thing that went. And you probably had New York Online, which was the New York version of America Online. I'm not sure if I did, but I definitely. Yeah, there were. But that was the day, great days of the bulletin board, like Jim Leff and Chowhound. Yes. I was very active on that. And that was another way that you used the budding Internet before the web became available. We will have you back. And really, I want to talk about your eater days and I want to talk about your career in general.

37:17Robert, you're welcome back anytime. I want to close this section and talk about your essential pizzerias writing. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. You just updated it in the past couple of weeks. And I love the list. I align with you in most of the picks. But give me your top three right now in New York pizzerias. Well, now and forever, John's of Bleecker Street, one of the original coal oven places. I mean, my daughter was pretty much raised there under the hideous mural of the Blue Grotto, which looks like it was painted by a three-year-old, which is fine. I mean, I love it. But just you got to stop by.

37:55Got to go there. It's great. It's coal oven pizza. You can see them delivering the coal in the morning from the coal truck, which is a complete anachronism and probably anti-ecological. And then I love that Mama's 2, which is up on the Upper West Side, but a new - Upper, Upper, Upper West Side. Upper, Upper West Side, maybe about 103rd and Broadway. Great place. They've just opened a new place. I haven't been to it. It's down on Bleecker Street at Christopher. Another is Lou and Ernie's, which is in Schuylerville, Bronx, which is in a white frame house. And they're really famous for their kind of garlicky white slice.

38:33They only make pizzas. They don't make salads. You know, it's just a fantastic. Is it to go only? No, no, no, no. You can sit there. You can sit down in that house. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's new to me. I prefer the sit down places. It's wonderful. If you can get there, do so. I was really excited. There was a place right by our office at like 52nd and 8th. Uh-huh. What is that place? Do you remember? There's the place over – it's like – or it's over – Oh, Don's Dorita. Yeah, you called it out. Oh, that is a fantastic place. I love it. It's one of a new crop, relatively new crop, of chefs actually coming here from Naples.

39:11Yeah, it's Neapolitan style, exactly. Da Michele in the West Village is another version of a place where – but the problem is if you've been to the original place in Naples and you go there, they've completely transformed the restaurant and put in like fancy stuff and wine lists and stuff. You know what they drink with pizza in Naples. I mean, I would think half Chianti, half Coca-Cola. Coca-Cola, definitely. Maybe throw a little Chianti in the Coca-Cola. They have a couple of bubbly wines from Sorrento. Red, cold red bubbles is what they drink. Yeah. I've been to Naples. I'm going back in October with Mauricio Leo.

39:49Oh, great. On a taste travels. We're doing a trip there. And absolutely essential to kind of connect New York and Naples in these restaurants. And I love your pizza list. You put FNF on there, right? What's FNF? Oh, maybe we did. Oh, you put L &B Spamoni. But FNF is the Franks on Court Street, Lower Carroll Gardens. Oh, yeah. That's been on there, but it's been on and off. The thing is, I revised that list a couple times a year. I love it. And I take some off, put some on. So F &F is— L &B Spamoni Gardens is always great. Although people hate it because it's kind of like uncooked in the middle.

40:24People hate that place because they don't know. And it's a very specific pizza, but I think that's great. Pizza with a point of view is my number one pizza. And I think F &F, I love the way they do the sourdough, and that's a really, really great bread there. Oh, yeah. And then you've got L &B Spamoni, doughy in the middle, sweet sauce, square slices. And let's not even mention the wonderful pizzas of Staten Island where it is grown in isolation. It is. And if you can make it out of Staten Island, which one is it? No, that's Chicago shit. What is the one? There's Lee's Tavern is a place that does bar pizzas.

41:00Yeah, that's the one. And the whole idea of a bar pizza is it has a kind of a crisp crust so you can hold it while you're drinking a beer. I love it. And they're small, so they also have big ones. But, you know, they have clam pies. Just they have amazing pizzas. Robert, on this is Taste. We ask guests about their discerning taste. So to close this interview, here's a little rapid-fire, fast-and-furious taste check. Are you ready? Let me get my list up. I have it on my phone. Oh, you crypted it. I love it. I crypted it. You came ready. You came to play. I think I could have done it from memory, but we'll see.

41:30Yeah. Okay. The best fruit. Tomato. I feel that works. We try to avoid the technicalities, but that's fine. The worst vegetable. I like papaya, too. Yeah, papaya is a good one if it's good. What about the worst vegetable? Frozen peas. Ooh, baby, really? Yeah. Dang. But you like canned peas and fresh peas? Yeah, oh, yeah. But frozen, okay. I'm into it. The best dessert? The French flan that comes in a crust. Yeah. Oh, my God. Such a good call. Your favorite American fast food chain? Whataburger. What is that one? I know the name. It's a Texas-based chain where they put, God help us, mustard instead of mayo and red or some special sauce on there.

42:12And it's great. I love the idea that mustard is working in a burger because I can't tell you in one example where it does. But I believe you. You would love it. You want to go to Texas? We have hung out in Texas. Do you recall? Oh, my God. I forgot that. We drove around Texas to Hill Country, went and had some barbecue. Oh, my God. South by Southwest, like 2011. Oh, that's right. That was fun. Okay, a few more. Your favorite New York City restaurant right now? Sky Pavilion. Yeah, love it. Your favorite cookbook of all time? Joy of Cooking. Your favorite new cookbook discovery? Food of the Italian Islands.

42:47Oh, Katie Parler, shout out. Love that. Yeah, yeah, it's great. Your favorite album right now? This is an old one, Sufjan Stevens, Illinois. Yeah, right? Now the basis of a show at the Armory. Which I saw. Oh, wow. So now it comes to life for you. It's all, well, it comes to life. Of course, there's one John Wayne Gacy song, and that doesn't quite come to life. That song is devastating. It's creepy, yeah. That song comes on the radio once in a while. It's a beautiful song. What a master. I love Sufjan Stevens. Your favorite city outside America to visit for food? Dakar, Senegal. I love that. A cuisine you would like to learn more about?

43:26Guatemalan. Have you been? No. Yeah. I've been to Mexico, but I haven't been to Guatemala. Let's get that travel story going. I know, but I haven't forgotten that they were killing those nuns about 25 years ago. Yeah. Would you go, though? I would go, yeah. I think listen editors get Robert down to Guatemala to write some stories. Last one, your favorite sandwich. Mortadella on focaccia. Is there a place in New York that does it? Is there? Just about anywhere that sells focaccia. But there's this new English-British coffee chain, I forget the name, at the corner of 7th Avenue South and right below Christopher, about a block and a half, that only has oat milk in their coffee.

44:10But they also make these little thin sandwiches with the mortadella and focaccia. Such a great combo. What a great call. We haven't had that on the show. Robert, this has been such a pleasure. Please come back. Thank you so much for joining This Is Taste. Thanks for having me. That was big fun.

44:32We played in Grand Rapids. Yeah, Grand Rapids. At, what's the place called? Pyramid Scheme. Pyramid Scheme, yeah. And Kalamazoo. Kalamatsu. I can't actually say Kalamazoo anymore. I have another friend from there. I told her that we do that. We got to keep this in, Clayton. We're keeping this full. And Luke Pineson, thank you so much for joining this today. How are you, buddy? Great. How are you? I'm good. It's nice to meet you. and you wrote a great feature of her taste and we'll talk about that. We're talking about my hometown, Kalamazoo, but you call it Calamazzo. Calamazzo. Calamazzo. As if there were two Zs at the end, as if it were in Italian, as if it were like a coastal Italian village, Calamazzo.

45:10I'm super into that. And you ended up going to the famous Sweetwater Donuts. Yeah. On tour, people are always trying to get us to eat donuts. And if you ate a donut every time someone said, you have to go to this donut place, you know you would be eating too many donuts do you fuck with donuts? Do you like them as a food? honestly I don't love donuts but Sweetwaters is great it's old fashioned it's just no nonsense and I have a fond memory of Sweetwaters and Kalamazzo Kalamazzo, they do the cake style and agree hard about the donut I'm more, I'll go Queen Amon over donut, be snobby just about anything over a donut you know where they make nice donuts is Aggie's Counter they have the Hungarian style donuts on weekends funk I think they're called Really delightful.

45:53Cool place. We're going to talk about your menu hotlines piece for taste, and it was a terrific piece, and I'll link to it. But let's first get into your two loves, which is food slash journalism and music. What came first? No, one didn't come before the other. It was simultaneous. Contemporaneous, yeah. Well, I started taking drum lessons when I was eight years old. Yeah. And then I started interning in restaurant kitchens when I was about 13. so you know in terms of doing them like kind of pursuing them more seriously that was I guess music maybe came first yeah but um they've always been kind of like both competing and complementary interests for basically my whole life well being 13 in the back of a kitchen we'll get to that plus getting your drumming career you were telling me off Mike you're retired you're 33 and retired that's about the time I think is is generally good to start thinking about retirement You were the drummer of Frankie Cosmos.

46:47You had bands in the Boston area. You were able to tour a lot. And you have a book that's coming out soon. It's called Tasty Music. We'll get to that at some point. But when you tour and you're thinking about food, Luke, what are you trying to do here? Well, I mean, there are different stages of my career, right? So at the beginning, when I was going to a lot of these places for the first time, it was like, I have to have the regional specialty. I have to go to this place. I came into every town with an agenda. And then as I got older, and we're talking older, like my late 20s, it was like, what can I eat that's going to make me feel good and not awful every day?

47:27And it's hard to find that. It's hard to find that balance. Well, the polarity of touring, and I've known plenty of touring musicians and used to write about music before food back in the day. And, you know, bless you for doing both. It's cool that you have both. You reminded me of my friend Nils Bernstein does both, and you know Nils as well. But I feel there's a polarity with food and touring. It's like either Taco Bell or you're splurging. You're going to that one meal on the off day. You're in San Francisco and you're going to Zuni, you know, for example. Is that true or is there more of a middle when you're touring?

47:59Well, yeah, you put it really well. That is true. But the middle is more, that's more your bread and butter. The middle is more your everyday experience of being on tour. The poles totally exist. But yeah, I went to Café Chez Panisse once when we played in Berkeley. You can't do that every time. uh so no it's mostly just trying to dial in what makes you feel good and what's going to make ultimately you're on the road to perform so it's about you know having your body feel good your mind clear and just feeling like light and ready to go um and that's not always the best restaurant or you know the most kind of coveted regional specialty is not always going to make you feel like that definitely not i feel like you're definitely gonna feel a little bit let in if you're doing even like you know you're doing a bronzino but you're eating all the sides and then you got the bread course and then you got like the obviously you got pasta thrown in you got this like dessert i've made some really bad mistakes tell me about them what is the mistakes that you've made well so this is one of my favorite restaurants in the universe l 'express in montreal yeah such a fantastic restaurant um lauren my wife and bandmate uh and i went there um before for a gig in Montreal in like 2018.

49:15And I want to say she had steak tartare and fries, like a huge plate, a really big plate of ramen. It's like brasserie style. Yeah, exactly. It's like a 24-hour brasserie in Montreal. It's really like, it's such a great restaurant. And I had, so my favorite dish there is this like quail with wild rice, kind of a demi-glace type sauce. It's so delicious. And then - Demi-glace is not hitting light. It's not light food. And then huge, like imagine the biggest il flotant you can imagine with like this caramel crust and candied almonds. And il flotant is fairly light, but when it's the size I'm talking about here and I'm showing you with my hands, it's like the size of like a huge dome of meringue with this caramel.

50:01And the creme anglaise is not super light, actually. It's not. Riette's to start. Like we really, we had a lot of food. Yeah. A creme anglaise to end and then you got to play a show? That's right. okay not a good show tell me about that show well yeah it just felt so horrible and heavy and i mean the meal was great but there's a time and a place and i mean you're you're you're the drummer so you've got sitting you got backdraft yeah yeah if you know what i mean so you're good but is lauren singing backup yes she is in the front she's standing she's singing backup when you're singing there's a lot that you kind of tend to be careful about eating dairy dairy creme anglaise Creme Anglaise.

50:38Yeah. Creme Anglaise. Ina Gartner once told me this is not supposed to be a name drop. She literally told me this on Zoom once when I was interviewing her. Creme Anglaise is basically Haagen-Dazs vanilla melted down. Yeah. It's like the easiest way to do it anyways and aside. So that didn't work out. Yeah. Alcohol and shows. I always am amazed when artists can consume alcohol and then go play a show. Yeah. I basically didn't. I did my best to really not drink that much on tour. My whole band was pretty monastic about that. And I think it helped us kind of stay as healthy as possible on the road and stay focused on what we were there to do.

51:18And it's not, I think it's kind of a stereotype that musicians drink heavily. I mean, clearly musicians sometimes have a drink on the road. I'm not trying to say they don't, but we certainly weren't the only ones that we knew who were teetotalers on the road. Very smart and very professional. I was out with Tom and Mo from Black Moss Super Rainbow. Wow, I haven't heard that band name in a while. The band was ill. Oh, I used to love that, yeah. You should love them always. It's been a while. That was like college. Those guys are amazing. And my friend plays, Steve plays in their band. And they were on tour.

51:53I remember once, this was maybe a decade ago, longer. We went to Mother's Ruin. And I watched Homeboy. He drank like five frozen drinks and then just played the illest show. and I was like wow well look everyone has their you know you gotta know what's gonna make you play the best show and yeah there were times when like you know a beer before a show or like a glass of wine and I would be feeling good especially if I like hadn't eaten that much when you're just that right level of like but it depends on the vibe of the venue the crowd size like there's so many variables and what about weed in shows cause that's the other thing I always wonder do you like do you just participate in like a little bit of weed here and there?

52:36I kind of strictly don't at all. Yeah. Just in my life. But and not only that, I was kind of like people did not like this about me. If people were smoking at our shows, I would sometimes say on the mic, like, please stop smoking weed during our shows. Yeah. I think it affects the singers. Yeah. It affects the singers. I don't like the smell, to be totally honest. That's such a square thing to say. No, it's not. And I like to be comfortable. when I'm on stage and like if anything it's the same as flash photography honestly if someone starts smoking during a show it's like as disruptive to me as someone taking a flash photo yeah no it's not square I hate to smoke it's like inside you know if it's an outdoor show fine but an indoor show yeah Luke this got a little fratty it's on me we were just talking hey man do you smoke with me for a show I don't want this interview to go there because I want to hear about when you were 13 and you're living in Newton Massachusetts and you end up interning and working at a restaurant What is this job?

53:33It sounds like you probably saw some shit. Well, I don't know if I would say it quite like that. But yeah, I started staging at a place called Via Mata that's not there anymore. The chef is named Michael Schlau. He was one of our local celeb chefs at the time. It was a really... So this was like 2004, I think, is when I started. It was kind of the hotspot Italian place in Boston. And I don't know, New Yorkers maybe scoff at the place in Boston. But no, it was a fantastic restaurant. I learned so much. And yeah, I would go in on Saturday nights. Like instead of hanging out with my friends, I would go in.

54:10And it's not like I was working the line, but I would just kind of float around. And whoever wanted to basically show me what they were up to. So let me, were you putting in prep? Were you doing garbanger? Were you serving? Yeah, well, I would come in like first during the day and do prep. I did a lot of like dessert Garde Mange, helping the pastry chef. That was kind of like an easy place where I wasn't in too many people's way. And then gradually I started doing more. And by the time I was, I think early college, I would do Garde Mange, like fully on the line Garde Mange. That's cool. So you ended up working at this restaurant.

54:47Summers. Summers. Yeah. Nice. Were there any other chef restaurant or chef jobs that you did yourself? Well, yeah. Yeah, the most recent chef cooking job. Sorry, I'll strike that. You are not a chef. You are a cook. Certainly not. If anyone ever says that, I correct them. No, and I'm being funny. And not only that, so this job, I was a prep cook, a pasta prep cook, fresh pasta at a place called Julia in Cambridge. That's G-I-U, which is still there and fantastic. That was about, that was in 2013. So I would go in and make pasta during the day. And then that's when I was kind of more active in Boston's DIY music scene.

55:22Yeah. and play shows at night. So then your second love kicked in a little bit. Well, so this is why like AM pasta cook was kind of the only thing I could do because that, and that's why I said earlier, they're like competing interests, right? Because if you're playing shows at night, you can't be on the line at dinner service. So it's kind of, it's hard to maintain careers in both like restaurant cooking and music. So music won out and then journalism was a good way to kind of like stay involved in the food world without working in kitchens. Yeah. And then obviously I want to be really kind to my body.

55:51So going on tour, you know, pick something less stressful than a kitchen, going on tour. Going on tour is super less stressful. Did you ever go to Craigie on Main? You ever go to that restaurant? Yeah, a while ago. Oh, yeah, sure. I want to give that a little shout out. I think Tony Maas is such a talented guy. And I had a call with him over the pandemic, but I haven't talked to Tony in a while. Poor guy is one of those chefs that his burger got really popular and then no one wanted to eat his other food. His great salads and his fresh, like doing fresh pastas. Yeah. And an early like nose to tail practitioner in Boston before it was fashionable.

56:25What else did you go do growing up in Boston? What were restaurants that you're loving? Well, you know what? And it's still there. It opened in 2001. Oleana. Yeah. Cambridge is so ahead of its time. I mean, she, Anna Sartoune, the chef, was using Middle Eastern and Eastern Mediterranean ingredients before they were fashionable at all. And it's still as good as it always was. It's such a good place. So you studied in college and then you have a graduate degree as well, tourism, but like the academic side of it. And you become fluent in four languages with Arabic being one of them. And you speak a couple of dialects.

57:03And I mean, how does language fluency help you as a food writer? I think it's tremendous. And you're very humble about this. I had to pull this out of your bio, by the way. It wasn't like you're telling people about this stuff. I try not to tell people. I mean, you don't. You're a humble guy. I'm just like, this is my job to interview you. But tell me, like, are there moments when you're fluency in Italian and French and Spanish and Arabic? Yeah. Those four? I mean, and I want to say, like, it's a spectrum, fluency. Sure, of course. And, like, you know, sometimes I'm rustier than other times. Yeah, yeah, you got to practice it.

57:31But you're a linguist, obviously. However, give me some examples of times when maybe you were in a space where, you know, your language skills kind of helped you see something that maybe I would not see. Well, it's really come in handy in homestays. And like, so I did a semester in Morocco undergrad, and my graduate field work was in the West Bank. And I stayed with host families in both of those situations. And English was not really spoken in either of those. And in Morocco, I could kind of fall back on French a little bit. But I really had, if I wanted to kind of poke my nose in the kitchen and see what was going on, like I had to communicate in Arabic.

58:07And if I hadn't been able to, I would have missed out on so much. I mean, even just simple questions like, hey, what are you putting in right there? you know or what is what's this dish called things like that so it really opened up a lot of doors in that way and the homestay experience and you know you can do this as a as a tourist you don't have to be a student um is just it's incredible i mean it's an incredible way to to kind of have a deeper dive into a cuisine yeah so our homestays part of like a an exchange program or is it just part of a loose collective you just stay with a host family for x amount of time um Morocco was just like, it was part of the semester abroad I was doing.

58:46In the West Bank, it was a tourism group called ATG, the Alternative Tourism Group. And they match you with host families. And you can kind of choose how long you stay. And yeah, it's a really cool organization. I'd love to hear about the West Bank, your time there. How long ago was this? Were you staying there? 10 years ago. Great. And where? What parts? What city? The host family was in Beit Sahur, which is outside Bethlehem. And I did research there and in Ramallah and Nablus and Hebron. What would you take away from living in the West Bank, spending considerable amount of time there? Yeah, well, I didn't live there, but I did, you know, about two, three weeks of field research there.

59:28So I don't want to give the wrong impression. But just being, I mean, it's such a hospitable culture. It's beautiful culture, beautiful food, incredible, friendly, gracious, humble people. And yeah, I mean, I wish it were an easier place to travel to. And obviously, I wish what is going on in the region was not going on. It's heartbreaking. And the only kind of positive I can see is that people are really showing an interest in the food from that part of the world and supporting Palestinian restaurants and food personalities. And, you know, when I moved to New York 10 years ago, shortly after this experience, there weren't that many places to get Palestinian food.

1:00:11And now there are. There's so many. And it's been so cool to see. Yeah, the boom in Palestinian restaurants in South Brooklyn. Yeah, really a boom. And not just that, but like a boom in people's just like literacy and what Palestinian food is and what separates it from other Levantine cuisines. Let me ask you about your favorite place for Levantine cuisine. I mean, it's a very broad term, right? And I'd love to just get your picks around New York. Tanneryn. I mean, I love Tanneryn. It's an old school place. It is. Yeah, I think it's so fantastic. Their moussachen, which is like the national dish of Palestine, I think is the best.

1:00:51It's so good. And she does like shredded chicken rather than a whole quarter. And I prefer that. Yeah. It's so good. and the knaffa is outstanding there. Great knaffa. Oh my. There's a place in Park Slope that does a knaffa that I find quite good. It's like on 3rd Avenue and it's called like Tahini. Oh, Tahini. Tahini. With a E. Yeah. I walk past that all the time. I've never been there. So knaffa there slaps. Okay. It's really good knaffa. Oh, good to know. Yeah, yeah. Absolute great dish that you bring up. Yeah, that place with good spelling. It's so true. Yeah. Yeah. Random question. I was watching a video.

1:01:31You were talking about food on tour. Why are red bell peppers associated with Prague? Because you said you know you're in Prague if there's red bell peppers. I said that. You did, I believe. Oh, you know, I think I was talking about. You're like, I said that. Yeah. Like the green room, like green room spreads. Yeah. I think Central Europe in general. I mean, yeah. And the Czech Republic. Look, when you're looking at that spread, there's always going to be very heavy bell pepper presence in the crudité. Do you like that? Is that a positive? You know, I don't like raw bell peppers. I like bell peppers.

1:02:05Raw is kind of, I'm not interested in that. As a sofrito, it's pretty great. Cook it down, put it in a sauce. You can make it into a great type of harissa or something. Shakshuka, but not raw. I'm with you. Not raw. Lecho, a Hungarian dish, which I wrote a recipe for in an article about. I love. And that's basically just cooked down bell peppers and sausage. And that's really good. Yeah. I'd love to talk to you a little bit more about the touring, about food on the road. I guess, first question, when you were working with labels and industry people, did you ever get taken out on the road to a cool place?

1:02:48Ever happened? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, definitely not really like, you know, recognizable restaurants. It was more about like having the opportunity to travel to and play in really interesting places. I'm thinking of like Jakarta, for example, we were taken out to a Padang meal, which was incredible. And just like, yeah, I mean, I couldn't really ever imagine that I would get to go there for music. Amazing. Yeah. Like that routing, when you saw that on like a spreadsheet or I got a call, that's a pretty cool place to visit. Oh, I was like over the moon. Yeah. We played a festival there. And actually, so what happened is we got offered a festival in Jakarta.

1:03:24I looked at how to get there and saw that. So we're kind of a, we were a Sky Team band. Yeah. So I'm sorry. You weren't, you know, Sky Team's okay. I mean, I'm sorry. I'm not trying to take sides. I'm more of a Delta guy. No, Delta is Sky Team. Wait, I thought that was Sky Alliance. Oh, no. Yeah, Delta is, unless I'm mistaken. You said Sky Team. I thought it was American. but I'm American is star alliance oh my god you're getting it you're yeah this is so great I was like how can you not be delta in New York okay yeah yeah so so anyway the way to get the easiest way to get to Jakarta was uh via Seoul on Korean Air yeah so I wrote to our booking agent immediately and was like you think you could hook something up in Seoul stopped there on the way to Jakarta and that's exactly what happened I love it so that's another place we were taken out um to really we had lucky to have good friends there and they showed us around that's really cool i just got back i was in january so tell me what was that like what was your time in seoul oh it was incredible well it was yeah well we were we were interviewed on um the korean public broadcasting network radio uh eb ebs i want to say right uh which was super fun and we just played this one club show in hongde uh which was great oh so they routed you a show in hongde oh yeah yeah we weren't just going to like hang out no i thought you maybe you're oh you played a show in hongde oh cool yeah Yeah, this was actually like the last tour I did before COVID.

1:04:44This was in December 2019. Yeah. And then my wife's really good friend from college is from Seoul and was living there with her mom. And we went over there for lunch and her mom cooked us this huge spread. And it was, yeah, it's just so memorable. That's great. And then you moved on to Jakarta. And then we went to Jakarta, played this festival. They took us, I mean, I was in a day, I was super jet lagged, just in a complete daze. And they took us for Satay, like the first stop, which is great. And I had a friend from grad school who lives in Bandung, which is not far from Jakarta. So she flew over for the show, which was very nice of her.

1:05:24And she had grown up in Jakarta. So we had an afternoon with her where she showed us around like her childhood market. Oh, fun. Yeah. And then she took us for the Padang meal along with the promoters of the festival. That must have been so cool to actually be taken up by local. Incredible. Cool people. Incredible. Music people. Yeah. Did you go anywhere else after that tour? Were you in Southeast Asia hanging out? I wish. No. And, you know, because the pandemic was right after. So, of course, we were kicking ourselves. Like, we should have stuck around. You never know. Yeah. But no, we had to come home.

1:05:53Best post-show meal, meaning it's memorable in that, you know, it doesn't look like the best food, but it was just like a memorable gathering post-show. Well, you know, I'm thinking about, we were talking about Middle Eastern food. And I think I have really fond memories of playing in Detroit. Every time we played in Detroit, we would make sure to stay in Dearborn, which is, of course, like the U.S.'s Arab majority city. Amazing Arab food from all over the Arab world in Dearborn. And there was a, in my memory, it's a 24-hour drive-through Lebanese restaurant, but I'm not sure that it's 24-hour, but it definitely has a drive-through called Cedarland.

1:06:32And that was our ritual. Every time we played in Detroit, we would go to Lebanese drive-thru, load up on Meze, and then eat it in bed in the Doubletree. Oh, I know Cedar Tree. I know that place. Absolutely. And Shatilla as well for the bakery there. Shatilla. Shatilla is great. I love, I love, I mean, it's, and you get to put your language skills to work a little bit. A little bit, yep. Absolutely. I remember Kahwa House, the Yemeni coffee place, which now has locations in the city. There's like a few here. It's cool. But they started in Dearborn and we went there in like 2018, 2019. Incredible coffee place.

1:07:06And they have all the Lebanese Yemeni sweets like Sabaya, the flaky nigella seed honey pastry. Incredible. And yeah, I remember the guy writing down like the names in Arabic for me. And good memories in Dearborn. Michigan. Not far from Kalamazzo. Kalamazzo is about two hour drive. My sister lives in the north suburbs of Detroit, so I get to go there and enjoy some... I love Dearborn. It's a great community there. It's so cool. Let's talk about Taste of Music. It's your book. It's coming out in the fall. It's a great title, by the way. Thank you. It's a great title. I mean, it works in many levels.

1:07:45Yeah, thanks. You know what? I'm going to admit that I came up with it. Yeah, you should. I always take credit. I came up with the Korea World. Plug in that right now, too. Please. It reminds me, did you ever read the Alex Capranos, the dude from Franz Ferdinand? You ever read that book? Of course. That was a Hanukkah present. Yeah. And I want to say like senior year of high school. And that, yeah, I got to give credit to Alex Capranos who declined to participate in our book. Stop it. Well, no, I don't mean to say it like that. Dude's not busy. I'm just joking. Sorry, dude's not busy. Yeah, no.

1:08:14Dude's not busy. But he's a label made of my co-author. So we thought like maybe he would want to chat. But no, that book is great. You know, he had a Guardian column where he wrote about all the stuff he was eating on tour. And it was anthologized. And it was, I mean, at the time, I just couldn't think of anything cooler. It's a very cool book. He's a terrific writer. And then there's Alex James, the bassist from Blur. Oh, the cheese guy. The cheese guy. Yeah. Which I've heard unofficially that he doesn't really make his cheese. Really? Well, he owns the cheese. Okay. Alex, come on the show. I've emailed your manager three times.

1:08:50got one reply back it was like three words love to have you on the show we're both having trouble with our respects yeah we're not getting into the Alex and the UK music scene I did get to interview Alex Capranos once at Cafe Colonial on Houston back in the day for a magazine article and Lovely Men all they wanted to do was talk about Orange Juice the band the Scottish band it's my wife's favorite band really? no shit I feel I like Belle and Sebastian if I'm going in that route but I do like Orange. They're both great. Underrated place to do rock. So Alex, come on the show. Alex, come on the show.

1:09:28Both Alex's, we can clear up. Well, and you're going to get my co-author, Alex Bleeker, who's an Alex that will happily engage. He's a bassist in real estate? He's a bassist in real estate, yeah. And they're still a band? They're not only still a band, they just put out a new record a few weeks ago, which is Slammin', yeah. Yeah, I've always enjoyed those guys. What label are they on? Domino. Domino. Domino. Clinic. Home of Clinic. Remember that weird band with the surgical masks from the early 2000s? Sounds like they were ahead of their time with the masks. Well said. They definitely were set up during the pandemic.

1:10:02Probably one of the lower tier domino bands. Not sure why. I just referenced them. We could talk about music all day. Sorry, listeners, that we went there. Tell me about Tasty Music. The pre-order link will be in the show notes, so check it out. Music and food are great when they mash together, but Oftentimes they're done in kind of a hackneyed way. I've been able to look at the PDF. It's terrific writing and terrific booking of minds and souls. But what were you trying to do with this book? I think like the kind of popular image of going on tour hasn't really been refreshed since like Almost Famous.

1:10:37Yeah. And that was not my experience. That's not most people's experience. Yeah, I know. I think, yeah, Alex and I were trying to find a way in, you know, to telling those stories and food is a perfect way. So we started kind of talking to our musician friends about what they eat on the road. And it really just kind of took shape from there. I mean, we thought and confirmed that food stories were just a really great way to talk about going on tour in general. And so we're not only talking to, you know, quote unquote, foodies. Everybody who goes on tour has an opinion about food and food is a really important part of being on the road for everybody, no matter what your relationship is to food.

1:11:21So, you know, we tried to talk. This is an anthology. So we've got about 40 different contributors from all different backgrounds and different bands, different scenes, different eras of music. And everybody's got kind of a unique story. detail. Yeah, I'm gonna, let's leave it at that, because you're gonna come back with Alex, and we're gonna chit-chat about some specific stories. Speaking of stories, I want to talk about the story you wrote for Taste. Thank you for doing that. It was great. Thank you for having me. I mean, it was like, so fun. It was one of the best stories I've ever worked on.

1:11:54It's a great piece, and it's all you, and you pitched it, and this is how it should work sometimes. But it's about menu hotlines, and I love the piece because it really taps into a style of dining, and like a community around dining that we don't really talk about and how food is expressed through the telephone. Very, very unique story. Tell us about what you were reporting on. Yeah. Well, so I got to give credit to my bandmate, Greta, Greta Klein, the front person of Frankie Cosmos at our annual Frankie Cosmos office holiday party. Oh, cool. Which we've kept up despite my retirement. she gave me this item, which I'm brandishing, called the Directory of American Menu Hotlines, which is this zine basically put together by an artist and writer based in Minneapolis named Andy Sturdivant, who I think is a genius.

1:12:48And it collects these phone numbers, mostly at institutions like hospitals, military bases, senior centers, churches, that you can call and you get a pre-recorded answering machine that tells you the day's specials at that institution's dining facility. And when Greta gave this to me at first, I was kind of puzzled. And then I was flipping through, I called a number, I called another number, and I was like, oh my God, this is like, I felt like I was, you know, like an archaeologist discovering the Rosetta Stone. I was like, this is, I can't believe this exists. And I need to know more about it.

1:13:29Yeah. I mean, looking at your interests in your anthropological studies, it seems like it would be a very cool thing to marinate on. But in general, they're really entertaining. They're so entertaining. And I want to play a couple examples. So what I'm going to do is you're going to list one, we'll do like three. So list one and then set it up and then we'll play a little clip from that hotline. So what's the first one? I mean, I think we've got to start with the Oyster Pearl Grill, which is the on-site dining facility at a hospital outside New Orleans and the hotline reader there a woman named Sharon Brown who's worked in the cafeteria there for about 15 years she's really kind of the the queen of the genre um absolute iconic it's been on my phone since you wrote the story really how often do you call once a week or so I I I don't go to it that often Yeah, fair enough.

1:14:22But do you do it daily? I do it daily. I do it daily. Yeah, usually, you know, my wife and I work from home, so we'll be sitting at our desks, and then, you know, at a certain point, one of us will turn to the other and be like, should we call Sharon? Exactly. It's the first thing that's based. So let's play Sharon now. Okay. Good morning, good morning from the Oysterboro. Happy Tuesday, March 19, 2024. On the menu today, we have the following. Yeah, listen up close now. We have fried pork chops, barbecue briskets, smothered cabbage. I know, right? Do you know how fast that cabbage goes? We have green peas, yeasted flame roasted corn with jalapenos, fried green beans, baked beans, yeasted grilled zucchini and squash, and grilled shrimp.

1:15:14The combo meal of the day is your fried pork chop, one side item, and a 16-ounce beverage. Your e-fit meal to grilled shrimp, one e-fit side, and a 16-ounce beverage of water. The soup of the day is chili. Ah, no pun intended, but hey, you can always use a little chili when it's chili. Come on in, bring your smile and your appetite. We'll see you soon. Still the most lovely woman. I would like to meet her one day. I interviewed her for the pizza. I was starstruck. I need to go there. Yeah, it's definitely part of visiting these. What's the next one you want to call out? It's really hard to choose.

1:15:51Yeah, I know. There's a lot. We'll link to the story in the show notes and definitely check it out. I think I want to call the original Harvey's Family Restaurant in Taylor, South Carolina. So what's interesting about this is that there's actually not that many restaurants that have hotlines. It's predominantly these institutional settings, as I was saying. but Andy who put together the directory there's a mini directory within the directory that is called the family restaurants of Alabama and South Carolina supplement because it's like it seems to just be a thing in Alabama and South Carolina and there's about seven of them but I really like Harvey's so so this is gonna ring okay and like part of the fun here is there's always this little like is someone going to pick up this time you know every time i call yeah today actually i i screwed up one of the numbers i was calling a hospital menu line and someone picked up was like radiology and i was like uh guys we're trying to get the menu line we're trying to figure out what type of beans are being prepared but if you dial uh if you dial correctly then no one's going to pick up so anyway here's harvey's you've got the original harvey's family restaurants menu line Tuesday, and we'll be open from 11 a.m.

1:17:05to 7 p.m., and this is what's on our menu for this Tuesday. Of course, we'll have that great country fried steak, smothered white gravy. Then we'll have our good old meatloaf. We'll have a grilled teriyaki chicken breast, alabas chicken. We'll have a fried pork chop with petri fish every day. Then we'll have that grilled Greek chicken. Our vegetables are the mashed potatoes and gravy, rice and gravy, green beans, macaroni and cheese, fried okra. We'll have a bean of the day, cream-style corn, potato salad, pickled beets, applesauce, coleslaw, a vegetable and dessert of the day. Then we'll have some fresh fruit, stewed okra and tomatoes, our roasted red potatoes.

1:17:55and then we'll have those great varieties of salads, sandwiched wraps, and of course, that was on your dinner. We look forward to seeing you for lunch and dinner on Tuesday. Thank you for calling. Now, have a blessed day. He's kind of like, he reminds me of a pilot, like, or, you know, a flight attendant over the PA telling you, like, you know, your cruising altitude. I felt I was in his warm cocoon. There's an ASMR quality. It did, and this guy, it's a balanced diet. Yeah. I'm like, pickle beets. Pickle beets, applesauce. There's this, you get into the group when you call every day. You know some of the reps.

1:18:30Yeah. And he's like, of course, we got lasagna. Like always. Yeah. Lasagna is always on. Yeah. What's the third one you want to call out? I know we can call out these all day. Yeah. I think, oh man, I think we should do, we should do, there's this Lutheran church outside Minneapolis where the reader has this really calming presence. And I just, I think it, there's this wholesomeness that I think really speaks to, you know, the culture in general. Love the up in Midwest. Just got to love the upper Midwest. Hello, welcome to Westwood's community meal menu line. I hope you're enjoying the warm weather.

1:19:02We'll have it for today and tomorrow, and they say it will get cool on Thursday. Tomorrow, March 13th, we will serve sloppy joe in a bun, whole kernel corn, big carrots, a cheese slice, pickled chips, a seasonal fruit, and a dessert. The meal is from 5 to 6.30 in Good Shepherd Hall. Next week, March 20th, we'll have ham and cheese egg bake, veggies and dip, fruit muffin, and a fresh fruit cup. We hope to see you here. I love— Oh, goodness. Egg bake. I can't even do it anymore. I've been away for 20 years. Egg bake? Egg bake? My mom kind of gets it right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's not, I can't say that the accents aren't a fun part of calling them for sure.

1:19:54I love it. Let me ask you one more band question. Your favorite band to share a meal with. So, you know, I don't know if this paints me in the best light, but I prefer not to eat with other bands. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I get it. I like to eat with my own band. You want to be the star, buddy. I was in a band with my wife. You want to be the star. No, no, it's just I was in a band with my wife. The two of us like to go off and enjoy our meals in private. Yeah. Did you guys meet? Were you like together when you joined the band or did you meet? We met in the band. Interesting. We met in the band. And our band was actually two couples.

1:20:26So sometimes the four of us would eat together. Sometimes we kind of go off in our couples. Ricky Cosmos was two couples. Yeah. Interesting. I didn't know that. I'm sorry. They say that's not advisable. But it worked out, I guess. I disagree. Yeah. It worked out really well. Luke, on This Is Taste, we asked guests about their discerning taste. So to close this interview, here's a little rapid fire, fast and furious taste check. Are you ready? I'm ready. The best fruit. The Julie mango. Yeah. What's the season in that we're looking at? Well, in the Caribbean where it's eaten, I believe you're looking at like fall, December, and then by January, February, they're done.

1:21:00They're done. The worst vegetable. Acorn squash. You're the second in two weeks you've said that. Really? It's truly hot trash. Yeah. It's not a good one. It's how you cut off your finger. Oh, true. Yeah. I mean, I wouldn't be cutting one. No. No, it's just banned from your house. The best dessert? Grape nut pudding. Explain, please, sir. That is a New England dessert. It's like a custard with post-grape nut cereal baked into it. Grape nuts, of course, being one of the hardest foods. I mean, really a hard food like pebbles. It has a ball-bearing quality to it. But when you bake it in a custard, it retains some of that texture, and it's delicious.

1:21:45It's a delightful texture. Gonna have to take your word for that one. I mean, I like grape nuts as a theory. You ever had grape nut ice cream? No, I haven't. Oh, fantastic. My guy, I need to do this. I like where you're going here with the grape nuts. Maybe we'll work on a story. I've been, I'm saying maybe there's - Look, I want to write about grape nuts. You know what's interesting? It's very popular in the Caribbean and it's popular in ice cream and in New England. Yeah. There's a lot to say. I think there's a lot to say. Your favorite American fast food chain? Maybe Pollo Tropical in South Florida.

1:22:13Yeah. I've not been there, but I've heard of it. Really good. Your favorite New York City restaurant right now? Kafana. Oh, I love that call. I love Kafana. That's classic, yeah. You never feel bad when you're leaving Kafana. It's good. Is that down in the East Village? Alphabet City, yeah. Yeah. Your favorite cookbook of all time? Probably. I mean, I don't really use it to cook from, but just for the pros, nose to tail cooking. Fergus. I saw that you're a big Fergus head. I mean, do you go when you're there? I do. you go to St. John yeah the mothership I just I love it and it's it's always so great I mean Rochelle Canteen is also great Margo is amazing too so both of them but yeah I love it I went to the one on Brick Lane this past summer that was good yeah it's a good one I mean he's yeah he's a genius but just the headers the recipe headers incredible and one time I did cook a bowl of quails from that book oh you did it turned out alright alright it works we've been marinating in a St.

1:23:14John cookbook story for a while to be continued your favorite recent cookbook discovery that would be West Winds by Riaz Phillips and he has a newer one actually called East Winds but West Winds is a Jamaican cookbook he's a brilliant writer I think he lives in Berlin but British or British Caribbean West Winds is a great book and I just think Jamaican cuisine doesn't always get that treatment or the respect that it really deserves. Very cool. I've heard of the name, but I've never actually gotten a copy. It's a good reminder. Your favorite album right now? Well, I mean, I shouted out my co-author's new album, Daniel by Real Estate, which just came out.

1:23:53It's great. I'll also say Katie Von Schleicher, who engineered the most recent Frankie Cosmos album, and she's now playing in Frankie, but she and her solo career is amazing. Her new album is called A Little Touch of Schleicher in the Night. That's a great name. Wow. Way to leverage a beautiful last name. Who took your job in the band? Did someone take your job? Or is it just a drum machine? Yeah, it's Chad GPT. No, it's a rotating cast. There's a few drummers, all of whom I wholeheartedly approve of. Do they speak four languages and enjoy Kafana? No. Everyone would like Kafana. I feel you got this job.

1:24:32I don't speak Serbian also. Oh, that's true. That's actually bad. I can't really do much there. I feel you got this job if you want it back. I just feel, just for the restaurant picks. but you're retired man i'm retired but jordan i mean they come out i'm being brady yeah they come out of retirement yeah times brady wouldn't like kafana no he wouldn't like oh that's your guy or maybe not are you a patriots fan no okay no absolutely strictly no all right a few more a cuisine you'd like to learn more about uh persian yeah you know similar to the arab cuisines that i know and love but uh different enough that i've got a lot to learn really cool idea I mean and also like the aspirin America is pretty pronounced and prominent yeah be cool to dig in last one your favorite sandwich in general or in New York man in general we're going ever all time eggplant parm place to get it you know I don't eat them that often that's the thing yeah I don't eat them that often I mean I used to love them from parm I haven't had one from there in a while parm's kind of changed a bit but great one Luke what a pleasure thank you so much for joining this thank you so nice

1:25:41This is Taste is hosted by Eliza Abarbanel and me, Matt Rodbar. The show is produced by Shalia Harris and Pat Stango and edited by Clayton Gumbert. Theme music by Steve Rydell. Visit Taste online at tastecooking.com and make sure to subscribe to our newsletter for updates on all cool things that are happening.