397: The Life of a Professional Forager with Tama Matsuoka Wong

26:06What's a wild garden? And I think we have these categories that we call something, this is wild, and then this is cultivated, or this is a garden, and this is a farm, when actually it's really a lot of the same thing used different ways. So when they say what is wild, or people are like looking for the wild, you can have wild on your terrace in a container where things grew that you didn't plant. And in fact, I had somebody sending me a photo from something they tried to plant, a tomato plant, and it died. I can relate to that. But something else came up. So don't just be like, oh, you know, that's just like a bad thing.

26:44It turned out to be upland crest top 10. Really good. Wow. This is like different because this is not a wild plant inherently. But my sister's garden in Oregon, all of a sudden, she had a whole corn stalk growing in her front yard. that may be like a crow. So there's also things that are just around you. And again, it doesn't have to be, oh, this is like, you know, completely wild. There can be things that are naturalized. They were originally planted and then they naturalized the things that like the brassica. I have talked to an ethnobotanist and they have done DNA testing on this at the New York Botanical Garden.

27:20And they found that there's two strains, but they think that this strain came originally from turnips. in a cultivated plant in China, like many, many times. It's closest to that. But now there's no more turnip on the bottom. And it's kind of reverted back to how it used to be. So there's reverting back. Then there's also things that are wild becoming cultivated, totally propagate them. And in fact, if you go to a lot of markets and places outside the United States, it's very common to have wild plants in the market that maybe that ended up becoming cultivated, et cetera, et cetera. So you have a term in your book that's called the middle ground.

28:02Can you unpack that for me? So that is, again, when I talked to Alex McElvey, who I'll give a shout out to him. He's the one that maybe read all these journal articles like in the winter during COVID when I was excited about this. And that's really a term that I guess anthropologists have been using because there's sort of the myth that people started as hunter-gatherers and went from there to farming to what we have today, like large farms. So the middle ground is actually where you're – it's not completely wild. You're always kind of tending the wild or working with the wild. And our relationship with nature, with our gardens, with our farms, has always been one that is kind of a middle ground, that you're not just leaving the wild to be without touching it.

28:56And on the other hand, you're not making this completely pristine, manicured, nothing wild or weedy should be there. Like white picket fence garden. Right. And so I really like that. I liked the name, the middle ground. So it's a way of like working. And that's what I kind of mean by a wild garden. So it's really that you're managing. It's not like you're just letting everything do whatever it wants, particularly invasive plants. So you're managing it, but kind of in a way that's thinking more about the way the plant is growing and letting that kind of form how things are and stewarding it as opposed to coming in and saying, okay, I want this garden to reflect me.

29:42This is my style. I'm going to have a design. I'm going to have little emoji trees around and that it has to be like that. But it's not. It's going to change. And so you're always battling to control. And instead of doing that, why don't you kind of go with the way the plants are going to be? I don't know. For me, I'm not a very good gardener because I probably don't pay enough attention to maintaining it. So things will happen. And I just notice what happens and then try and work around that. So, for example, I have a lot of pawpaws. So, you know, I always have my own stash. And then I was throwing the seeds and things into the compost.

30:22pile. And then a couple, I don't know how many, because I wasn't paying attention. A couple of years later, I noticed I'm like by the compost pile and there's a tree there. I was like, what is a tree in the middle of the compost pile? And I noticed there were a bunch of kind of sticks that were, and it was, there were pawpaws. So the pawpaws that were in, that were, had the seeds, they decided, and I had tried to plant pawpaws in other places where you're supposed to. And maybe one pawpaw was there, but this was like a grove that came up. And so people said to me, so did you try and transplant them somewhere?

30:54And I said, no, I moved the compost pile. So that's kind of what I mean, right? Like see what's there and work with nature and work with the plants to develop your plan instead of everything has to be according to your grid. Because you know something, in the end, it's going to revert back to the way it wants to be. So much easier to move a compost pile. But also, I probably wouldn't have thought to do that But first, it's all about like reframing the way you're viewing something, which is what I love so much about this book. I mean, I don't have access to a garden here in Brooklyn where I live.

31:30So when I'm reading your book, it's not even that I'm necessarily going to cultivate a garden, but I find it so soothing almost to be like just reframing the way that you think about plants and your interaction with them, which I think is such a big part of the ethos of this book, which is just kind of rewarding for anybody who especially is interested in cooking and eating things. Well, that's good. I'm glad you enjoyed it. But there are some things you can do indoors because I'm not very good. And I have some really easy things that you can do indoors where you can bring plants in, etc. And again, another big thing because I'm really very much don't like waste.

32:11So one of the big things is people, myself included, you know, you have these trees and they're citrus trees or other things. And it never produces a fruit or produces one in two years or something. That's how bad I am. So it's like, well, what somebody I was like, they were going to throw it out. Oh, it's just like I've tried and nothing's happening. But you can use the leaves and you can use all kinds of other things. So I think this is another way to look at to kind of appreciate what's available to you and then work with that. So I want to talk about the recipes in this book because I think they're so fun and imaginative.

32:46And it's springtime right now. And I'm curious what kind of recipes you would recommend from the book for people to be cooking in this moment. Well, I guess, you know, I have in there some of the most common foraged items that some of them are in the summer, but a lot of them are now. And I talk about methods of preparation. And partly I'm doing that. I focus a lot on how to pick it because I think that is one of the things that prevent that keeps people from enjoying it in whatever they usually eat. because they're picking it at the wrong time or it's too stringy or et cetera. And then it's, you know, at least for a first time, it might be, they might not like it.

33:32So I'd say try again, even something like a dandelion. But think about how you're picking it, like picking the middle part when it's light green and not the most outer leaves that are going to be dark and probably came up first and are maybe more bitter. And if you do that, then it's really easy. I think for those, you don't even really need a full recipe. You could put it in a salad, you can braise it. Any way that you like to eat vegetables or greens, it can go well in. So that's the first thing I would say. And then the other thing that I like to do is I like to, things that are in the spring, I always try and remember, not always successfully, to store some and freeze it for the winter because it's so great.

34:24I just find I don't really enjoy frozen vegetables anymore. But to have your own little taste of spring that you did yourself and you know everything is great. I mean, I do like to have, for me, I like to have them in like fried rice and ramen and things like that. But that's because that's what I'm eating. Other people could put it in mashed potatoes or a pasta salad or something like that. Or even just have a couple dandelion greens mixed in your salad, you know? Yeah, I really like that idea. I feel like it's common for some folks who love to cook to maybe like make tomato sauce at the end of the summer and then freeze it for the winter.

35:00But I feel like we should be taking that approach to other seasons that have unique flavors that are hard to get at other times of the year as well. I do like the spruce tip mocktail recipe, which you could also add a little gin to. I think it kind of works for anyone. And then speaking of the citrus leaves, I do like the meatball with lime leaf galangal and ginger in it. It's really good. And you could freeze those too. Yeah, I have some lime leaves in my freezer. Yeah, see? But I don't, maybe you can tell me if I'm doing this wrong. I don't ever thaw them. I just kind of like toss them into like a soup or something when I'm making them and just feel like it's going to be fine.

35:40Is that okay? I think it's okay for a soup, which is kind of basic. For the meatball thing, yeah, I don't, I'm using fresh ones. Right. And then I'm cutting them up really small so that it's not too, again, I'm taking out the, again, texture is a big thing, right? So that that mid rib, that can be fibrous. So I'm taking that out and then I'm chopping it up. I feel like the texture takeaway is one of the biggest things I've had from this conversation because it does impact your eating experience so much more. Well, so there's the other thing is, you know, purslane is not purslane season, but it is a really, really great, healthy, high source of omega-3 and it's kind of a little tart.

36:17And so many people don't like it. And when I ask them why, they say because it's slimy. And I've never had any slimy purslane at all. and I think it's because they're picking it when it's too mature and they're eating this, they're picking the whole stem, which can probably be that way. But if you're picking the tips, it's crunchy, it's not slimy at all, it's a little bit tart. So I think a lot of it is, I mean, of course, recipes are great. I love recipes. But I think a lot of people listening to this probably have their favorite that they like. And so you can just incorporate all these things in anything.

36:55Yeah. And knowing the plant, which is something that you talk about a lot in this book, which also means knowing that the tips of the purslane are probably the most delicious part is really what empowers you to be bringing these foraged foods into your recipes in the first place instead of having to start from the very base level. Yeah. So to close today, I want to play a little taste check game with you. So I'll give you some categories and you can just give me the first answer that comes into your head. Okay. Favorite plant to forage? Chickweed. Most annoying plant to forage? Well, I don't like digging anything.

37:26So anything that would require digging, I won't do. Your favorite cookbook? I like Plenty More by Atulenghi. And there's another one, I think it's called Southern Clouds or something. It's a Chinese one. I like that too. Cool. Something you'll never make from scratch? Oh, it probably involves some kind of homemade pasta thing. Something that you have to order when you see it on the menu? Wild. Anything wild, I will try. A now closed New York City institution that you wish could reopen. Okay. So a lot of restaurants I like are open, but I'd say from back in the day, Chanterelle. I actually have my, you know, they had like a fire sale and my outdoor porch furniture is from Chanterelle.

38:17Oh my God. So when they reopen magically, you'll have to give it back to them. I wonder. Your favorite season for cooking? Summer. Your favorite season for gardening? Late spring. A restaurant that you wish could be your neighborhood restaurant? Cafe China. A scene from a book or a movie that you wish you could eat? Okay, nothing really comes to mind. The first thing that comes to mind is Babette's Feast. Yes. I love that. That's such a great answer. It is? Yeah. Yeah. And to close, something that you wish you could eat right after we're done recording. Dumplings. What kind? Spicy. Me too. Well, Tama, this has been so much fun.

39:01Thank you for coming on and bringing all of these delightful herbs. I'm not even upset that the nettle stung me. Thanks. Thank you so much.

39:18Hey, Eliza, what's up? Not much, Matt. How have you been? I'm really great. Let's go over three things. Yeah, let's do it. What's your first? My first thing is that I went to a really great pop-up at Rodora last week. It was with Pika Pika and Fruitsom, who are two different pop-ups I've been following for a while. They did a collab, kind of Southeast Asian menu. I think my favorite thing I had was this banana ketchup char sioux pork. Wow. I know. I had to pause after I said that. Wow. I love that. reaction so um just like perfectly cooked and like melting in your mouth like so fatty in a really great way loved that i also got a really good like chili garlic gochujang prawns over this sweet corn puree it was absolutely pouring rain but it felt very like warm and cozy inside and it's just always fun when i think when chefs get to collaborate on a menu together so that's my first thing i love that it's puree of corn and shrimp there's like that feels like low country it feels like america Like regional America.

40:17I love that. Yeah, yeah. It was so special. And like you're on the pop-up hunt once again. You know, I live very close to Rodora, so that's always an easy ask for me. But I love going to pop-ups. I think there are just so many exciting chefs that get to collaborate in fun ways. I have some more pop-up plans for this weekend. But that's in the future. So what's your first thing? My first thing is this terrific book from Joan Nathan, My Life in Recipes. Joan has written her final cookbook, as she tells me. in an interview that will arrive in the next month or so. But I wanted to right away talk about this book.

40:50Are you familiar with the work of Joan Nathan? Yeah, her Latka recipe is my family Latka recipe. I thought it was like our family heirloom. And then I realized it was from her cookbook. But that just really makes her cookbook our family heirloom. That's amazing to hear. I mean, her recipe writing is tremendous. And there's so many recipes that are iconic. Her career is so diverse. I mean, she's actually more, I would say, more of a journalist than a recipe developer. She spent time working at the Washington Post, at the New York Times, Boston Magazine. She worked in Jerusalem as a attache to the mayor of Jerusalem.

41:23And, you know, for the past, I would say, 30 years, she's had frequent contributions in the New York Times and is a fan favorite over there in the food desk. So her last cookbook, what's the spiel? Great question. And the book itself, to me, is the perfect kind of final cookbook. And I asked her if it's a final. She's like, leaves the door open, kind of like in that Tom Brady, Michael Jordan way. It's like the LCD Sound System final tour every two years. Oh, my gosh. I went to the final two shows. I went to the last show at MSG and the last show at Terminal 5 back in 2010. And that was like the end of the LCD Sound System.

41:59I went to a final show at Brooklyn Steel in 2019. Oh, yeah, that final show. So we've had our share of final shows. Wow. So, yeah, for those here, for Joe Nathan, you're getting a little bit of James Murphy. But let's talk about Joan a little bit more. So Joan, to me, she's written regularly about Jewish food, but her contribution to food writing is significant. She was writing about regional cuisine. She was writing about communities in Boston, like black communities. She was writing about black food in Boston in the 1970s. It's like stuff that we don't think about Joan Nathan as being a journalist, but she really was a terrific writer and had a real editorial sense.

42:38And really, this book itself is like her history through recipes. And I know that's been done a lot. But I went to like kind of I do a little bit of research for these interviews we do. I found myself reading it for three hours, the book. I love that. I can't wait to read it. Yeah. What's your next thing? My next thing is that I went to the Hana Makkali Taproom recently up in the very top part of Greenpoint to hang out with Alice, who I hope to have on the show soon. And I got to try all of these different great drinks that they're doing. And I think my favorite one, they're calling Omija. It has a shisandra berry, almost like a co-ferment with this fermented rice.

43:14It's like this beautiful blush pink. It's extra tangy because it has that malic acid from the fruit in addition to the lactic acid. It's very much like a rosé kind of vibe if I was going to generalize, but it's really just its own kind of drink. And it was really so good. Yeah. I mean, the Hana Makali team is just doing tremendous work and opening multiple tap rooms and just really getting the name out there with great product innovation. And, you know, I don't drink anymore, so I haven't really been on top of the Makali game. But back in 2013, when we reported on Koreatown for the book, we found a few here and there Makali producers.

43:48Still wasn't quite what they're doing at Hana. I think it's just like really it's its own. It feels like the natural wine moment for Makili is what Hana Makili is doing. And I can't wait for you to have the interview. Yeah. Yeah. She's actually going to raw wine in L.A. pretty soon to have Hana Makili at the wine fair. So I think we'll talk when she gets back and it'll be fun to kind of talk about what it's like to be in conversation with these other kinds of producers that are doing really high quality, like organic, naturally fermented work. But she's doing it in this whole different space. Oh, cool.

44:19What's your next thing? Have you heard of Colonel? Colonel Sanders? Colonel Sanders, no, but good guess. Colonel is the brand new plant-based robotic restaurant from Steve Ells, the founder of Chipotle. I have heard about this. It's on like 23rd Street or something. You got it. It's on 24th and Park Avenue. I was just at a dinner party with somebody who's been working for this. I had a lot of questions. Oh, it's definitely inspired questions for me, but I got to go this week and try most of the menu. And I have to say it's amazing. The food is really good. And I got to give a lot of credit to Andrew Black.

44:57He's a longtime friend and somebody who worked for years at 11 Madison Park. And it's all plant-based. There is a robotic arm in the dining room. It is cash-free. There is no POS system. You order on the app. You pick it up in a little cubby and you leave or you dine in. So it's like a very, it's an all-electric kitchen. It's low staff. And it's really bringing kind of this innovative plant-based cooking to New York. They have one location now. They're going to be opening more. And Steve is going to come on the show. And we're going to talk about founding Chipotle and this new product. I'm really excited about it.

45:33I think it was tremendous. Yeah, wait, what did you eat there? Okay, let's get to that. Hard-hitting questions. Let's get to the food. You're like, just talk about the food, Matt. Yeah, I'm like leaving comments on the podcast. You're like, come on, Matt, just get to the food. Okay, well, the first thing I have to say is the plant-based chicken cutlet is amazing. Like they got, somehow figured out how to mimic brining because the seasoning and the flavor with the crunch was really excellent. They have a burger that I would call more of a bokeh burger, but it's waffled. So they have like extra texture and kind of surface area that allows for the griddle to pick up those little craggly ends.

46:09And it's it kind of perfectly fit in a custom made vegan balthazar brioche bun. Whoa. And is it like beyond style fake meat or plants? Like, how are they achieving that? It is, I would say, in the realm it's proprietary and Andrew's doing that doing the burger. But I would call it a bokeh. That's like kind of the structure of the burger. So it's not like a superior superiority style veggie burger, which has a little more of a loose. this is like kind of mimics a patty but it isn't like beyond it doesn't like bleed for you like they always used to say which is always kind of weird to me it has its own like structure and really the sides were quite excellent too they have like triple fried potatoes that were super light and then you know what i i gotta say the cookies they had two cookies they had salted chocolate chip and oatmeal raisin i love an oatmeal raisin cookie super i would say a nice ring of caramelization on the outside or that like golden but it's all plant-based really excellent job guys like i know it's hard to open in new york and i don't know like you you wonder i'm gonna ask steve this like you wonder about like these startups that have like robotic arms is this just like a concept or is this just like kind of scratching an itch for a guy who has means to open chains or is this the future of food i don't know next week on taste or yeah A week to be determined.

47:32We're booking him. It'll hopefully be later this summer. Some week on taste. Some week on taste. What's your last one? My last one is that I tried Doritos Blazin' Buffalo Ranch. No way. Have you tried this before? I don't know about this product. It sounds amazing. Well, when I Googled it, apparently Doritos fans say that it is, quote, the best Doritos ever created. And then it disappeared from shelves for a while. And then they relaunched it during the Super Bowl this year. Where did you find it? Just at the grocery store buying some snacks. I said, this looks like something I should try. And it was kind of amazing.

48:04It's one of the things that makes you think about, like, what if a caveman got these chips and had one? Like, would they even survive? Because the level of flavor is just so insane. It would, like, shut down their nervous system. Yeah, they would be like, what is blazing? I can't understand the sensation. But it is. It really does taste like a buffalo wing. It has a little bit of that ranch finish as if you were dipping it in ranch. I was eating a bowl of bean soup that I thought was just okay. And then I had the inspired idea to crush up the buffalo ranch chips and put it on top as a garnish.

48:35And it really did a lot for that, I would say. It sounds amazing to use it as a garnish. Now, I love that the idea that it's buffalo wings, but with ranch. And as former co-host of the show, Anna Hiesel, has said many times, maybe on air, but also in print, there's like a dividing line in New York State. it's like east of x line is the blue cheese and then west of said line is the ranch for with buffalo wings the pairing of the two so yeah i love to see it's ranch not blue cheese yeah i kind of prefer ranch you do i don't i will i can get down with blue cheese on occasion however recently i was at the fly getting wings and i they gave us a bowl of like kind of liquid blue cheese yeah but i thought it was the white sauce that they have for the chicken and let's to say when you're expecting one thing and it's actually blue cheese that's quite an experience no um so yeah these trips are just kind of like a marvel of of chip fabrication i would say i love it i i need to to check this out i'm gonna maybe smash the amazon button yeah i mean they might sell them downstairs in the little grocery store keep it local i want to interview those guys yeah we should have it is like the best store i like love that store a well-stocked bodega grocery store is is a thing of beauty i mean they have like 12 olipops like they have like olipops that Alibaba hasn't even invented yet.

49:52I'm going to go right after this. Look for the chips. You're going to look for the chips. I appreciate it. I'm keeping you off Amazon. What's your last thing? My last thing is this. Seoul Salon, a favorite of mine in Koreatown, is doing a collaboration with Flavortown, which I think I talked about in the Seoul recap. But it's a great restaurant that's in Songsu that does a Szechuan Korean mashup. And I was able to finally try this collaboration. And wow, it's really amazing. I think they're doing a single dish. It's a spicy jokbal, which is like a pork foot that's been cooked long and slow, and it's taken off the bone, pressed, and it's served with these parola noodles on the side and some herbs.

50:32And I think there's like some kind of crispy element that's maybe a fried noodle, too. I can't quite remember what the toppings are, but wow, spicy jokbal from Flavortown. It has a little bit of mala happening in it. Really good. It sounds really good. And because of Flavortown, I just have to ask what you think Guy Fieri would think about it. I think Guy is going to absolutely love this restaurant as soon as he sends his season to sister order and too soon. But honestly, it's interesting what Guy's response will be to Flavortown spelled with the British spelling, though. Oh, so they're safe. I guess they're safe.

51:08They can claim that they were Australian and didn't know. It's funny. I was talking to the owners and I made a very mild joke. it was my read was like they didn't want to talk about Guy Fieri that's okay we can talk about it I know it's just like it always comes up literally everyone's like Flavortown it's that but like I honestly think it's its own thing it's a Szechuan Korean mashup it's an amazing place hopefully they'll open a permanent location in New York at some point I think it'll be a big success yeah I would love to get to try that it sounds great it's very cool well thanks for sharing your three things yeah anytime

51:42This is Taste is hosted by Matt Rodbard and me, Eliza Abarbanel. The show is produced by Shalia Harris and Pat Stango and edited by Clayton Gumbert. Theme music by Steve Rydell. Visit Taste online at tastecooking.com and make sure to subscribe to our newsletter for updates on all cool things happening.