419: We ❤️ Wisconsin Cheese: The Makers

25:30So we'll go on in.

25:35Can we peek in over there? Sure. So what my helper is doing right now is we flip these wheels on a regular basis because naturally the moisture within the cheese follows gravity. And if we leave them sit in one spot for long periods of time, that moisture will mush to the bottom of the cheese and we'll end up with a softer side of the wheel. And we don't want that. We want evenly distributed moisture. So we'll flip them and in the instance of our loaves in the back that that's a different type of cheese in the back We'll roll them. Can you tell us what are the different cheeses that we're looking at?

26:13What's what you're looking at up front is our Dunbarton blue and then in the back is our Red Rock cheddar blue So what are the ages here for the for the Dunbarton? So are we talking like weeks or months? So you got a week on this product this is so it usually starts youngest to oldest we just had a big run on the product so we're really low on it right now normally this back half of this room would be full so we're we're working right now we're producing a lot of extra Dunbarton to get kind of caught back up so when we go into the into the busier time of the year we'll have enough of it but this cheese ages for four months.

26:51In the terms of the red rock in the back, that cheese ages for 60 days. So we allow the natural rind to grow. And then what happens is when the cheese is ready to sell, we release it as it's ordered and in the order that it needs to go out. We just got to go peek into the cheese caves, which was a strangely emotional experience for me, maybe just because I love cheese, but seeing it all lined up on the blocks, like waiting to be in its final form was very sweet for me. Yeah, there's a lot of Sleeping Beauties in there, I guess. Yeah, they are Sleeping Beauties. Can you tell me a little bit about the different kinds of cheese that you're making and aging here?

27:37Sure. So we primarily distribute four different recipes nationwide, all small batch. but the first thing that we do is our cave-aged cheddar which is our Raleigh House Select and that can vary in age depending on when I feel that it's ready to be released. Normally it's a younger cave-aged cheddar but sometimes good things come to those who wait as well. Also we do our Red Rock Cheddar Blue which is a 60-day aged naturally rinded cheddar blue. We also have our Dunbarton, which is our original artisan cheese that is a three and a half to four month old English style cheddar with a blue vein. And then we have our Little Mountain, which is an Alpine cheese that's similar to Appenzeller that's aged at minimum of six months, but generally between nine months and a year.

28:41So those last two that you're talking about are original cheeses that you developed. What does that process look like when you're going to set out and make an entirely new cheese? My experience now that I've been doing this for a long enough time is I have a really good idea of how our milk tastes. and what I'll do is I'll start to build a culture footprint within my head to try and give me a roadmap of the taste that I'm looking for in the finished product. So certain cultures have different tastes and behave differently and I can build on those to bring the flavor profile together that I'm looking for and that's really how I go about developing different recipes.

29:26So does it come to you in a dream of what you want it to taste like, or is it what you think is going to do well in the market? Sometimes, you know, with what we've been able to establish, it's got to be something that I think will fit in the market or has a place within our repertoire, so to speak. I guess I've got a group of cheeses that all use similar equipment and all use similar processes. So for us to decide to make a new style of cheese, it has to fit what we have because cheese making equipment is pretty expensive. So when you start buying different equipment to make a specific cheese, you have to make sure that you have a market and a return for that investment.

30:17Definitely. And we were just speaking a little bit about how you're the fourth generation cheese maker in your family. And this has been kind of a long running operation. Could you tell me a little bit about just the history of the Raleigh Cheese House and how you've adapted it in recent years? Sure. So this all started as one of the many country co-op cheese factories that around 1900, late 1800s, the farmers, because they didn't have the ability to cool their milk and they didn't have electricity and those luxuries that we have now, they would, about every three or four miles, the farmers would co-op and they would build a cheese factory.

31:02a facility to make their milk into cheese. So they would hire cheesemakers to live at that facility and make cheese morning and night. And my great-grandfather, when he immigrated from Switzerland, he was a trained cheesemaker. And he took the job here at this corner. It was called Hicks' Corners Cheese Co-op at the time. And we're somewhere around 1906 in that area. And he took that job as the cheesemaker here and raised the family. My grandfather took over for him and he really started to build the business into kind of what the modern day structure looks like. He got really big with commodity style cheddar, cheddar curds.

31:54And then my dad took over for him. And then I started to take over for my dad in that footprint and it was time for a change. So we had a period of time between 1991 and 2005 when we weren't producing cheese, but it was always my passion and it was something that I wanted to get back into. So when we come back into making cheese in 2005, we decided that we were going to be quality over quantity. We weren't going to tie ourselves to the commodity market. We were going to do something special. And at first that started with just reintroducing our own cheeses into the retail store that we own here.

32:38And then that kind of sprawled into the artisan national marketed cheese that we're doing today. Yeah. And this is when a word I'm going to mention that you just taught me comes in, which is affinage, which is the art of aging cheese. Can you speak to how aging a cheese kind of transforms it into something else? Yeah. So what affinage is, is the art of finishing a green cheese. So a cheese that comes out of the factory, the production area, isn't often what it is at the time that we sell it. So we bring it over to our facility. We give the cheese an environment to live in that allows it to mature in a way that grows flavor and brings character to the product that it may not have had when it left the facility.

33:34And what that takes is time, and it takes labor, and it takes a specific environment that that cheese is happy in. So we have three different rooms within our aging facility that are all three different environments. So different moisture levels, different temperatures, and so on. And the cheese lives in there on wood boards. Naturally, no, they're not wrapped. They're not in any kind of a container. They just live in a still environment that allows them to develop a moldy rind, which imparts flavor. And then in the terms of our wash rind room, it allows our wash rind room to bloom and add flavor to the product as well.

34:22And when it's sitting there and aging, you're not just kind of forgetting it in a closet and coming back in a year. How do you kind of care for the cheese and develop it during that process? Well, the cheese has to be handled on a regular basis to allow the rind to develop evenly, to allow the moisture to distribute evenly from the cheese. If we took a wheel of cheese and put it on that wood board and put it in our room and walked away from it, you know, the moisture within the cheese would follow the gravitational pull and we'd end up with mush on the bottom part of the wheel of cheese. And that's not something that we want.

35:02So we continually turn the product. We handle the products as minimally as possible, but as much as needed. We just had Matt reenter the room with a cheese plate, which I'm very excited about. You guys are killing this interview. It's absolutely the best. So we're being rewarded with cheese. Can you maybe tell us about what cheese is in front of us? Sure. So what we have, the orange cheese is our Red Rock, which is a highly awarded cheese that we make. It's an American style cheddar blue that's a minimum of 60 days old. And then the next cheese is the Dunbarton, which is the more English-style cheddar blue, both naturally rinded as well.

35:51Same, similar process, similar cheese, totally different flavor profiles. So we make it very similarly. We're used in different cultures, but the process is the same and you end up with two totally different cheeses. And then we have, it looks like our Little Mountain, which is an Alpine style wash rind cheese like we were just talking about. I'm really excited to try all of these, but I think I need to try the Dunbarton Blue first because this is one of your cheese children that just had a TV moment, right? This is our lightning in the bottle. We were recently featured on the television show Top Chef, and Dunbarton was prominently used by one of the chefs.

36:45What did they use it for? Well, it's a cooking competition, and they made a small bite cheese-based, I guess it would be called an appetizer, and they competed on the show. And although we didn't win the overall competition in that show, the cheese was prominently featured and did very well. It's really delicious. I'm eating it right now. I don't want to be doing like cheese ASMR on camera, but it's kind of studded with these little pockets of blue. And that is essentially what? A cheese culture? It is. It's an enzyme. It's penicillium rocaforti. As in like penicillin? No, no, it's different. I mean, the same family, but different.

37:35aren't. Penicillium rocaforti is a mold that grows all over the world. It's in the air that we're breathing as we're speaking invisibly. And when we add it in volume to the milk, and then it gets air within the cheese, it blooms into this blue-green mold that gives a very pronounced flavor and makes blue cheese what blue cheese is. What would you say to people who have negative associations with blue cheese? Do you think that's something that can be overcome? Yes and no. Cheese is a personal pleasure for the people that are trying it. So if it's something that they really don't like, so be it.

38:19there's a lot of cheeses out there to kind of trip their fancy. But we like to think that our cheeses are what they call transitional. So you get a lot more of the cheddar flavor than you do with the blue. But there are people out there that will eat this cheese that won't eat a traditional highly ketone flavored blue cheese. For instance, that flavor that you would get from a blue cheese salad dressing, very, very heavy in the ketones, almost alcoholic flavored, where this is much more mild on the blue side. Although you know it's there, it's much more mild on the blue side. And I think that's been one of the attributes of both of those cheeses is that they do work for a much wider variety of people.

39:17A lot of times they just need to try it. And if they really aren't sure and they're willing to try it, a lot of times when they do, it's kind of a different experience than what they were expecting. Yeah, it's like a gateway blue cheese kind of. Exactly. How would you describe the artisan cheese community here in Wisconsin? I feel like there's such an incredible variety of cheeses being made across the state. I think it's extremely tight. Although we're all competing for shelf space at the markets and whatnot. And the awards that are on the walls in here. All the awards on the walls and whatnot.

39:52But, you know, we have a tremendous, tremendous bank of knowledge here in Wisconsin when it comes to cheese. And we're all benefiting from that. And I think we're making some of the very best cheese in the world, if not the best cheese in the world. I think we have the most variety in the world. Pound for pound, we're making more different types and styles of cheese than are produced anywhere else. And I think that the infrastructure that that takes and the support cast that that takes is here. And we're able to take advantage of that. You know, we have the Master Cheesemaker Program, which I've been through, which, you know, allows a cheesemaker to get to the top of their craft, educational-wise, and still have that support.

40:46But, you know, we all compete against each other, but we're also all friends and we also all share information. It's really rare if I'm having a conversation with another cheesemaker that I can't learn something or vice versa. Definitely. When you're not eating your own cheese, is there another cheesemaker whose cheese you really enjoy? Oh, there's a bunch. There's a bunch. You know, I could name. Yeah, you don't want to get in trouble just picking one. Yeah. Well, to politically correct me, but, you know, there's so many good cheeses in the state that, you know, depends on where you're at. Yeah.

41:27Really at any given time. Not to get too existential with you, but just hearing you talk about the way that cheese is such a living organism and all these different cultures and bacteria, I just feel like you must see the world in an interesting way. Do you feel like knowing about like all these tiny microorganisms and working with cheese gives you an interesting perspective just on the world at large? Yeah. You know, you learn sometimes that, you know, there are much more living things that we even we can't see on the planet Earth. And you have to think about that sometimes. But for me, when I started thinking that way, when I started thinking about how that micro environment that a piece of cheese is, you know, when I really learned that is when I really started to hone my craft.

42:19That's when I really started to, things started to click. Yeah, just hearing you talk about how you know what different cultures will taste like is such a trippy, kaleidoscopic thing for me to think about. Are there specific cultures that you work with the most here? Yeah, I would say. Just based on the types of cheese that I make primarily, we work a lot with the Cremoris. We work a lot with Lactobacillus helviticus, which is found all around the world. There's thousands of strain of that type of culture. you know, lactis, lactis. There's many. But primarily, you know, we don't really have a lot of things that other people don't have.

43:12Believe me, there's so many of us making cheese around this area that if somebody's got something that's really special, they're not going to have it long before somebody else figures out what it is. I guess to close, I have to ask a master cheese maker, when you're making cheeseburgers, what's your stance on American cheese? You know what? I actually like it on my burgers and people are going to hang me for that. But the traditional cheeseburger for me is a slice of American cheese. And what about when you're being extra fancy? Would you use a different cheese? Absolutely. I'll break out the good stuff.

43:46We'll use Dunbarton. We'll use Red Rock. I've even used Little Mountain on cheeseburger. And, you know, it just amps it up to another level. Well, I want to come over for burger night at your house sometime. Sounds like a plan. Thanks for talking with me, Chris. This is great. Anytime. Thank you.

44:07Huma Siddiqui Sites, this is Taste. Thank you for coming on the podcast. It's my pleasure, really. I'm so excited to meet you. I got to try your tandoori gouda yesterday, which I've never had of cheese like that in my life. So getting to meet the person behind it is kind of like a star-studded moment for me. Oh, it's my pleasure. You're very kind. Well, I guess to start, I'd love to just hear from you about what inspired you to create White Jasmine in the first place. White Jasmine is really a labor of love. So it is about passion of food, community, people. It's all about that. So that's the philosophy, the root philosophy of my business.

44:45And, you know, food brings people and cultures together. I've lived in different countries in the past, I would say, 40 years. I grew up in Pakistan, then lived in North Africa for a few years, and then England. And then I moved to Mount Horeb, Wisconsin. So you learn a lot. You learn a lot about yourself. You learn a lot about the culture. And so that's how it kind of came about when I moved to Wisconsin, there's not much of the spices available. So I thought, you know, I want to bring something. And I started teaching the cooking classes in our area. And that has just grown, which I absolutely love.

45:28Because, you know, without flavor, food is really empty calories. Might as well not eat it. Yeah, I mean, I feel like spices are such an incredible tool in any cook's pantry. When you started the cooking classes, they were spice-focused cooking classes? Yes. I really wanted to bring these flavors and, you know, encourage people to use spices for the flavor. As well as we talked about, it has a lot of health, you know, benefits as well. So just easy, simple recipes that you can just make a day-to-day. And that was the goal. So you started the cooking classes, and then through that, you began selling the spices themselves?

46:08Yeah, I realized that a lot of people like the spices, but they don't know how to use them. And I grew up with them, so it's easy for me to, okay, a dash of this and a dash of that. So I thought, you know, maybe I can create some spice blends. And then you can just go in. Some of my, like my tandoori masala has 13 different spices, so a lot of different levels of flavor. So you can just go in and take a couple of teaspoons and throw it in your hamburger, and it will be flavorful. So you started with that, and then I imagine the cheese component came in because you were in Wisconsin, and that felt like the right next step.

46:44How did you decide to begin cheese as part of your business? Well, I thought, you know, we live in the dairy land. My experience of cheese growing up in Pakistan was my father was a scientist, so he used to travel quite a bit. And then time to time, he would bring this can. I can still remember a gold and black can from, I think it was just cheddar cheese. And that would be our kind of Western cheese experience. We'll open the can, make some sandwiches, and everybody will try it. So I didn't have much of a cheese making or cheese experience. came to Wisconsin and realized that there are hundreds of different kinds of cheeses.

47:28It was just fascinating. And I thought, you know, what if I kind of add some spices, I would buy some cheese and I would add some spices and make my grilled cheese sandwich and it was pretty delicious. I thought maybe other people will like that too. So I worked with CDR and dairy farmers and really created these recipes. So they helped me, you know, really bring these recipes to the table. I have to hear more about this grilled cheese experiment you were doing. What was your favorite kind of spiced grilled cheese that you've come up with? Well, actually, we won a couple of championships. And I have a couple of trophies in my office to show off.

48:06The grilled cheese-specific championships? Where else can it happen but just Wisconsin, right? Yeah, wow. I have to, like, my life goal is now to be a grilled cheese competition judge. That's incredible. Oh, it was so much fun. And I used the sourdough bread with our tandoori gouda and really thin slices of crisp apples. And we won a couple of times, so I'm very proud of that. I love that. I guess to step back a second, when you were developing the cheeses, what was the first spiced cheese that you launched with and how have you kind of expanded the offering since then? So we launched actually three flavors at first.

48:43So our tandoori gouda, Sagi barbecue, which is more like a chipotle barbecue. and then also the cumin because I love cumin. It's just so good. And I use it like ground cumin as well as whole cumin seeds when I'm making recipes. So I wanted to really do that. So those are the three flavors that came first. And then we had our cilantro jalapeno. So the reason for that is that I would always say to my customers, start with the cilantro and then you will graduate to all the other flavors. The cilantro one is a little bit milder. From the cheese making side of things, what is it like to incorporate spices into cheese?

49:22I imagine that must be kind of a delicate balance to get right. Yes, for sure. We made quite a few batches where, you know, we'll make it, we'll try it, and we try different kinds of cheeses. And then realize that the best cheese to use is the Gouda because it holds the spices really well. So even with the gouda, I think we did like four different batches just to check the intensity of the spices. And I remember when we had the final recipes, our cheesemaker said, Huma, these are pretty intense. Do you think, you know, we do live in the Midwest. Do you want to tone it down? And I was like, no, I don't want to tone it down.

50:04If nobody is going to buy it or like it, my friends will get it as gifts for the rest of the year. and now people are buying it and maybe your friends are also getting it as a gift yeah they love it yeah well we have some of the tandoori gudo here in the studio with us so i think i want to have a little piece of it i did have it yesterday but i do feel like the level of spice in it is surprising in a really good way i'm glad you hear that you didn't tone it down what did you bring in to pair it with today so just some plain crackers because the best thing you can do with these Spice Goudas is that use very simple, you know, crackers so that the flavors of the cheese should shine.

50:44Just holding it right now. It's so fragrant. Can you tell me about the tandoori spice in it itself? What is the, how did you kind of refine that blend? So it has 13 different levels of spices. So what I wanted to do is, you know, trying to create what I used to have back home. So come as close as possible. So and even for the color, we actually use the tomato powder and beetroot powder because I don't believe in food coloring at all. And I'm never going to sell something that I will not eat. So that's how we kind of develop different levels. Yeah, I'm eating it right now. And I do have this like, warm sensation that's moving across my mouth.

51:29And the deep red color, you're saying that these little kind of specks of red in it are, this is chili or it's the tomato? Yeah, there's chili as well. And that's the specks you're seeing. And then there is more like beetroot and tomato powder within the cheese. I'm curious about all the different arms of your business. Is the sales kind of evenly divided between the cheese itself and the spices? Or how does that all kind of fit together? Cheeses have definitely taken off much more than the spices. And we are happy about that. Yeah. Because spices, you know, you have to think about this cheese, you buy a block, you eat it right away.

52:05Spices you use on a, you know, over time. So there's that difference of how quickly the cheese can be, can get used and eaten. I love hearing about the tandoori grilled cheese and knowing that you have this background in cooking classes. Do you give other kind of recommendations for the other cheeses that you have and to how they should be kind of cooked with? Very much so. I mean, our cumin gouda goes really well with any quesadillas, tacos, you know, that has the sort of the southwestern flavor. So it makes sense. And you can, anywhere you can melt any of our cheeses, it becomes very creamy.

52:39It's gouda. So it has to be good. I'm curious now that you, you know, if you've worked with the Dairy Research Institute and all kinds of different cheesemakers, how has your view on cheese as an ingredient changed? A lot, because I was not familiar with all these different kinds of cheeses. And it's really fun to try. And from time to time, I have a big cheese boat when I have a party or something. And just to be able to introduce our cheese, of course, but also all the different kinds of cheeses that are available. It's amazing. I mean, Wisconsin is such a daily land. I feel very fortunate to have landed here.

53:19Yeah, I would love to know what you're putting on your cheese board because I would imagine it's great. Are there any like fun, maybe more unexpected like condiments or pairings that you're reaching for? Definitely. A lot of fruit, different kinds of fruit, a lot of different kinds of nuts and also different kinds of, you know. I will say my cheese board is usually about this big and I'm saying about three feet, three to four feet. Yeah. I know you can't tell me about what your new cheese is going to be, but I can't help but wonder if you'll ever do something that is using more of like a traditionally sweet spice flavor profile.

53:52I feel like I've had some really cool salty sweet cheese pairings while here in Wisconsin. Yes, I would say yes. Yeah. Am I too warm? Yes, you are. Okay, I won't speculate any further. Good guess, though. But to close today, I'm wondering if you could tell me, maybe shout out one of your favorite cheeses that is not a white jasmine cheese. I love cheddar, but the aged cheddar. I'm not very good with like 10-year, but I can go up to five is my sort of limit. Because then it starts to get a very, I feel like it's quite heavy in some words with the flavor as well. So the five-year cheddar is pretty good.

54:32Yeah, I'm a fan of that as well. And I'm leaving this conversation with my eyes wide open to the world of grilled cheese possibilities. So, Uma, thank you so much for coming on the show and speaking with me. Yeah, my pleasure. Thank you for inviting me.

54:53John Yagi, welcome to This is Taste. Great to meet you. Nice meeting you as well. Thank you for having me. Well, we're going to get into the Master Cheese Makers program here in the state of Wisconsin. And it's a program you oversee. And I'd like to get a little bit into what makes a master cheese maker. But really, let's zoom out a little bit. And I'd love to get a sense. Is there a shared characteristic of a Wisconsin cheesemaker? Yeah, I think the shared characteristic is passion. People really enjoy the artisanry, the craft of what they do. A lot of it evolves because many of them are multi-generational master cheesemakers.

55:36So it kind of was in the family business. Even the larger manufacturers have really taken to the program and the cheesemakers in there. But passion is what I would say really connects everyone in the program. It's not just any kind of passion. It's family passion. It's passion that goes through bloodlines. We hear about third generation, fourth generation, ninth generation in Wisconsin cheesemaking. Yeah, the cheesemaking industry goes way back. My grandfather came over from Switzerland in the 1920s, settled in the Greene County area. So I grew up in a cheese plant actually making Swiss cheese and copper kettles way back when.

56:12So a lot of us just have that passion for the state, for what we do, for the dairy industry, and making product, making cheese, making good cheese. So along with running the Master Cheese Makers program, you're a judge, John. You're judging cheeses in many different capacities. And I really wanted to get into a sense of what is a cheese judge looking for? I mean, I know there's multiple checklists and charts you're looking at, but what in general are you looking for? Yeah, cheese judging. First of all, when you evaluate cheese, you need experience. You have to have an understanding of cheese, appearance, texture, body, flavor, functionality.

56:56And the one thing we're blessed at the Center for Dairy Research, we're able to see multiple varieties across the spectrum of cheeses. So we get a lot of experience. So when you judge, first of all, you look at the cheese, you look at the appearance. Does it look the part? Then you go in and you smell it. You take a cheese tryer or a knife, you cut it, you put it to your nose. Does it smell the part of what it's supposed to be? Then you go in, you feel it with your hands. Does it have the texture it should have? And then finally you go to the best part, which is tasting it, putting it in your mouth, both checking the mouthfeel and then the flavor, the bouquet that comes out.

57:35And then you make your decision and you score based on a scoring scale, a defect scale. And then you deduct points for any defects you see from what you consider to be the perfect cheese. I got a lot of questions now, John, because this is really opening up. So when you're tasting cheese and you're trying to get to this, there's like this level, you said play the role. How do you know what the role is? I mean, the goalposts may change as the industry evolves, but how do you know what's the baseline of the best or like what you're grading against? Yeah. So when you look at a cheese, each cheese speaks for itself.

58:13So when you look at it in your mind, just based on experience, you know, I've been in this industry for just shy of 50 years, actually, as a young child. So you just have experiences in all the multiple varieties. So you know in your mind between all the short courses we do and the trainings we do from judging, from troubleshooting to going out to plants, you just have a very good idea on what the perfect cheese is. So everything is based on that perfect cheese when you go ahead and evaluate it. So I'm hearing in Wisconsin, it's time. I mean, time in many levels. So there's aging of the cheeses, but also as a judge, you need to put in your time.

58:51It's not the kind of thing that you can do overnight. It's not like there's not a test to say this is a judge. You have to be in the business. Correct. And all the contests and whether it's the World Championship Cheese Contest, whether it's the United States Contest, American Cheese Society, State Fair's, yes, you need to put in your time. And a lot of the people that are judges could be people such as ourselves that are involved with cheese, product development, research, troubleshooting. It could be graders at various companies, various converters, the largest converters that you see that cut cheese every day and deal with it.

59:26Those are the people that make the best judges that just experience it on a daily basis. What about the retail side? Do you have judges coming in from like retail channels? We do. We do get judges from the retail side, particularly American Cheese Society will actually emphasize judges. They'll pair a technical judge with a judge from the retail side that they will score together. Any contest has two judges. So it's not one person making an individual decision it's an average of two how do you prevent um a cheese that maybe over indexes in something um might be more intense might be more extreme from like throwing off the judging pool because i think in any kind of food judging criticism less experienced judges would be thrown off by like a change of delta in the flavors and extreme and i feel like you can't do this.

1:00:21It would fault the process. Yeah, no. Experienced judges, you're able to segregate and compartmentalize each individual piece. So when you go in and you look at a particular cheese, first of all, going from sample to sample, there's palate cleansing. All judges have different methods that they use to cleanse the palate. If something is over the top, We're able to adjust for that very easily just based on experience. But the one thing when we score, it's to us and to me, it's an educational process as well. When you give me that piece of cheese, you think that's the best piece of cheese you've ever submitted.

1:01:01You put your heart and soul into that. So given the work you put into that and you sent it to me, I need to give it the best evaluation I can. So I'm giving you my honest feedback. And even when we put comments down, we will give corrective actions or things that we would recommend to help you if it didn't quite match what it should be. That's a nice way to think about it when you're actually making the industry better by this judging process. How are you cleansing your palate? You say everyone has their secrets. This is like interesting. What's your style? You know, that's interesting. So it depends on the category.

1:01:36If I'm doing like a, probably the most difficult ones to judge are the hot pepper classes because, you know, it's very hard to segregate. Surprisingly, others that are difficult, fetas can be difficult because of the lipase and the high salt contents, blue cheeses. So in some of these cases, actually what works is, what I like is half and half, like a little cream, especially in the hot pepper classes because it cuts the capsaicin the heat sensation so i'll slush a little of that in my mouth and spit it out yeah in general if i'm doing other categories um believe it or not diet pepsi actually just a little bit of diet pepsi a slurp or spit it out and that that cleanses me other judges use apples crackers water yeah everyone has their own thing diet pepsi not diet coke i'm very intrigued by this choice john i love thanks Thanks for sharing the inside track.

1:02:30Now, something that I just learned is that when you are given Master Cheese status, you have to reapply every year for the status to maintain. That must be for a cheesemaker in the calendar year. They got to be a little nervous about maintaining their status. Yeah. So when a master cheesemaker first comes into the program, so if I'm a first-time master cheesemaker, you have to have your license for 10 years before they can even apply, and they have to be making the variety for at least five years. They can go for no more than two at a time, and that's as much administratively just to keep things on track.

1:03:15And then they are evaluated, as you say, every year that they go through. Their cheese is evaluated. They have to go through short courses. And our short courses are based on critical thinking exercises, problem solving, and that. So there's a regiment of classes that they have to take over that three-year period. But, yes, their cheeses are evaluated every year for three years, and it has to pass. and it has to pass compositionally, microbiologically, and it has to pass on flavor texture profiles to go through. So yes, it can be nerve wracking. And once they are done with that aspect, there is the final exam.

1:03:59And the final exam can be intense and quite extensive. Is it a written exam and oral exam? Yeah, there's both. So when a new candidate comes into the program, And matter of fact, this is just starting right now where I'm getting ready to reach out to the future class of 2027. So I have my pool of applicants, which are 10 for this class. So what we will do is we will send two experienced people, could be myself or other members of our Master Cheese Maker Board, which will go out into the field, sit down with the candidates. We make sure each plant is inspected, make sure each plant has a food safety plan in place, has a food recall plan in place.

1:04:40And then we have oral examinations of the candidates where we'll go through and ask a lot of technical questions. We'll ask them about their cheese manufacturing, you know, and this program is an educational program. So, you know, we don't expect to walk in and you'd have all the answers to everything. but you have to show the wherewithal, the passion, that you have the background and experience that you will continue to grow. That's really fascinating. And it seems like the state of Wisconsin has created this program not just as a checks and balances to make sure the quality is high, but as a continuing ed process.

1:05:16Like people who work in the industry for these years is making your product better through this. And John, crediting you, all that driving around. What are you putting miles on? You're putting like 100 ,000 on your vehicle? Yeah, you do rack up a few miles visiting these folks. Yeah, I love that. Let me ask you a little bit about cheese curds. Because I understand, you know, you talk about the different categories of cheese that these master's program kind of like revolves around. And cheese curds is a new category. And, you know, having attended school at University of Wisconsin, I have a real love of cheese curds.

1:05:55But when you talk about from the industry, why are cheese curds now only being recognized? Yeah, so it's rather interesting. And where this evolved is cheese curds evolved from cheddar cheese. It's the same process, the same make. But where it evolves and why, as a board, we decided to grant cheese curds as a separate category, you know, because the question comes up, why not just do cheddar cheese? If I'm a master in cheddar, why can't I be a master in curds? And here's where you get into the weeds. You can be, if your cheese curds meet the compositional standards according to the federal guidelines for the Code of Federal Regulations, and this is into the weeds, but if your cheese is under a certain moisture threshold and it matches cheddar cheese, you do not need to get a master's in curds.

1:06:49Most cheese curds are higher than the cheddar cheese standards, greater than 39 % moisture. So therefore, it's not cheddar cheese curds. It's just cheese curds. Different designation. So that's why we have a master's in cheese curds. It makes perfect sense. And also, are you thinking about the squeakiness of these cheese curds? Oh, I love squeak. The best is when they're warm, going into these master cheesemakers, and they're making fresh curds, and you're walking out on the plant floor, you sanitize your hands up, you go over and grab a curd, freshly salted, nothing beats it. Butter and salt.

1:07:25John, I was up in Boscobel and I went to Udder Brothers Creamery, a little roadside stand. And I have to say, John, not sure if you know these guys, you don't have to comment. I know you got to be objective. But listen, I've had cheese curds my whole life. I've had fried cheese curds even longer. I feel like fried cheese curds before I had the fresh stuff. I've never had a better cheese curd than I had at Udder Brothers Creamery. I felt like they were doing something with the salt and the umami. There was something happening, and they fried it perfectly, and I was just blown away by this place.

1:07:58Yeah, you know, all of the different plants that do the cheese curds are all different. You know, you raise an excellent point, you know, and you go around the state. Cheese curds have their own flavor profile, and it all comes down, and I know it's cliche, but milk quality does weigh into it, and milk sheds and the terroir. Is that a pun intended, John? You just said way into it. I'm just going to stop you there. Ba-dum-pum. Sorry to interrupt. I just had to, like, couldn't let that pass. Continue. My bad. Yeah, no, no. But cheese curds are different, and it gets down to milk quality because, especially fresh cheeses, I don't care if it's curds, if it's quesablanco, any cheese that's fresh, you know, milk quality really plays an important role because, basically, I'm just extracting these curds from fresh milk.

1:08:42They're still buttery. I'm adding salt. and then how the cheese makers handle them plays into it. In your case that you mentioned, it's very freshly made, right out of the vat. It's perfect. You know these guys, Utter Brothers, Creamery? I don't know them specifically, but I know a lot of other ones in similar situations and how they do it. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I had a good time in Bascobel hanging out with those guys with their condiment cow. Amazing place. Last question, and thank you. This has been really fascinating and really cool getting to know you. Just give us a sense, you know, what direction is Wisconsin cheesemaking heading in?

1:09:21Are we thinking there'll be new styles introduced in Wisconsin? Are there going to be more cheesemakers? Is it growing? I'd love to get a sense of what direction we're going in. Yeah, no, I truly believe Wisconsin will maintain their current trajectory working with the industry and continuing to grow. And the state is very fortunate with this. It's because of the infrastructure. Dairy farmers of Wisconsin are extremely supportive of the Center for Dairy Research and are very proactive in keeping our industry in the forefront. But Wisconsin Cheesemakers Association, Wisconsin Dairy Products, all the different organizations that are involved continue to work with our people and get them involved in these meetings, keeping research up to date with the cheesemakers, trying to make sure our plants are running efficiently, making sure we make the best cheese possible.

1:10:20And if we get off the rails a little bit, you have the technical help that can come into the plants or analyze your milks or your ways or your cheeses to get you back on track. And going into the future, I think we're in a very strong position to marry the research, the artisanry, and the product development to continue our industry to move forward. John Yagi, thank you so much for joining This Is Taste. You bet. Thank you very much for having me. I appreciate it. I understand there's cheese that I tasted from the well water in those caves in Colorado. It's fantastic. Rachel Kerr, this is Taste.

1:10:57How are you doing today? I'm excellent. It's a good day to be in cheese. Every day is a good day to be in cheese, I have the feeling. That's been my top-line experience of being in Wisconsin so far. And it's really fun to have you in the studio today. You're the Senior Director of Brand Marketing for Dairy Farmers of Wisconsin, so you know a lot about cheese and coming off of the end of getting to visit so many cheesemakers and farmers. I'd love to just kind of step back with you and get a sense of like this is our moment in time in cheese and kind of where the state of Wisconsin has been. And I guess to start, I'm wondering if you could tell me a little bit about how Wisconsin came to be this state of cheese that we know it as today.

1:11:35Well, it's a really interesting story. And let me take you back to the 1840s, before Wisconsin was even a state, actually. There was a woman named Ann Pickett who's really credited with making the first commercial cheese in what became the state of Wisconsin. She pulled together milk from her neighbors and their cows and created cheese and sold that on the open marketplace. And now we kind of have evolved that model to be what the dairy industry and the cheese industry is in Wisconsin today. So that takes you back about 180 years or so. And then if you look at kind of what created this really amazing culture of cheese baking in Wisconsin, it's because we had the land that was ripe for dairy farming.

1:12:23And then all of the old world traditions of people who made cheese in their countries and then immigrated to the United States, making their way from the East Coast to Wisconsin. And so when you combine that amazing land and the terroir for dairy farming with the knowledge and old world traditions, that's really what cultivated that industry, which is now the Wisconsin dairy industry. Yeah, I love getting to hear that context and history. And even when we were talking with Chris Raleigh, I think he was reminding us that, you know, cheese was basically a necessity in some ways before refrigeration.

1:13:02There are all these dairy farmers who would pool together and be making their cheese collectively. And obviously that's because we love cheese, but it's also because milk itself goes bad. And I love thinking about cheese as something that's essential for dairy farming because also I think for a lot of people, cheese is just essential in terms of like something that you would eat. It is. And it's not only delicious, but it is preserving the milk. milk. We in Wisconsin have, now that's certainly not the only model, but most of the farms in Wisconsin produce their milk and then sell it to a cooperative or sell it off to a producer who's going to make that into cheese.

1:13:39In fact, 90 % of the milk that's actually produced here by our state's dairy farmers gets turned into cheese. So that is why, you know, you think of cheese when you think of Wisconsin, and those two things are synonymous because so much of that milk here is crafted into cheese, which has a much longer shelf life and can kind of live on and make its way outside our borders. Another interesting fact is that actually 90 % of the cheese that is made in Wisconsin ends up outside of our borders. So it gets sent off to all 49 other states, to Canada, to Mexico, and across the ocean and makes its way around the world.

1:14:11It's definitely like cheese ambassadorship for Wisconsin. It is. It is. We like to think of Wisconsin's cheeses as our most famous residents, and they make their way around the world to be enjoyed by people everywhere. I love thinking about that. And I think it's kind of starting with this history of where dairy farming in Wisconsin began is really interesting. And then also it seems that in the past maybe 25, 30 years, there was a big shift in that in terms of cheesemaking. Can you speak to that? Yeah. So, you know, since we started really dairy farming and dairy farming grew and grew and grew in the state, and then of course the cheesemaking followed, you know, certainly Wisconsin is known with making cheese.

1:14:49We certainly make a lot of cheese. But about 30 years ago in the early 90s, there was this kind of renaissance and rebirth of artisan cheese making, especially in our state, certainly across the country. But Wisconsin kind of quietly started making these really unique artisan cheeses. You know, you met Chris Raleigh and his family is a great example of kind of that rebirth and renaissance of artisan cheese making. Yeah, they kind of transition from making more of commodity cheddar. His family was making commodity cheddars. And, you know, Chris came back and reopened the family cheese factory and started making these really unique specialty cheeses.

1:15:27In fact, a little over 25 years ago was when the Master Cheese Maker program first started. Again, kind of another way that we as an industry in Wisconsin invested in this elevated level of cheese making. So Chris is another great example of that because he created a cheese called Little Mountain in partnership with the Center for Dairy Research that went on to win the Best of Show Award at the American Cheese Competition that year. So a small batch product that is hand cared for, but ultimately winning a big award. I think that's just a great example of kind of how this industry has grown and really shown itself that we make some pretty amazing cheeses in here.

1:16:12We compete at a world stage. In fact, we win more awards than any other state of country for the cheeses that are produced here. That's so incredible. And I think the Little Mountain is such a good example. And I've just noticed over the past week being here in Wisconsin, how much pride people have in the cheese in general and also Little Mountain, especially. I think I've eaten it at Formagination. We had it at Tori Miller's restaurant last night for dinner, certainly at Raleigh. And every time I get to have that cheese, I'm so excited about it. And it feels like, to your point about cheese being a big export, it's almost like meeting a celebrity and getting to see it in different places.

1:16:44That is true. And there's really no shortage of passion and pride in our industry. I think what's something unique about Wisconsin, and you'll see this, especially when you start to get to know the people within the industry, is that there's a healthy amount of competition, right? People are always trying to stay on their A game and create maybe an amazing new cheese or kind of perfect the cheese they're making. and yeah they might beat out some of their friendly other wisconsin uh producers at competition but at the end of the day people are here to lift each other up they're here to support other people's products you know give them a high five and a handshake when they win an award and and share knowledge i mean that's why the center for dairy research exists that's why the master cheesemaker program was created to share knowledge and help each other and i think that's also very uniquely Wisconsin and really serves the industry.

1:17:39Yeah. And to me, it's very much in the history of cheese making in this state to begin with and how people were pooling together to make this cheese. I think like having that sense of camaraderie makes a lot of sense. And also it's what continues to push the industry forward. It is. It's absolutely a collaborative approach. I think the other thing that I've really found interesting being here in Wisconsin, eating the cheese is the diversity of different kinds of cheese that's being made. Do you think over the past couple years, that's really when there's been a push to be doing all of these different kinds of cheeses?

1:18:07Well, I think the diversity really started because we had all of those immigrants making their way to Wisconsin and bringing their different traditions. And so you have, I mean, I think we have over 600 different kinds of cheese made in the state. And a lot of that's because we had people coming from France, from Switzerland, from other places in Europe. We have people coming from Mexico. We have people coming from really all over the world, bringing their traditions, bringing them to Wisconsin, cultivating them over years, decades, centuries, really. But there's this kind of special light on innovation that is happening here.

1:18:43And so that's why, you know, we have cheeses that are uniquely Wisconsin made. For example, Colby cheese was invented here in Wisconsin. Brick cheese is a Wisconsin original. And then you have all these other different cheeses that are being crafted with different cultures and kind of new, unique aging processes. And I think that's what's really unique about Wisconsin too, is we're taking these old traditions from our ancestors, but we're innovating on them. We're introducing new flavors, new cultures, new techniques, and kind of not just like just making the same thing we did, you know, forever and ever and ever.

1:19:19We're still trying to reinvent ourselves. Definitely. Do you think it's possible to live in Wisconsin and be lactose intolerant. I feel like nobody is lactose intolerant here. Yeah, there must be something where if you're born in the state of Wisconsin, it just is something that gets passed on that you can't possibly be. There's cheese curds in your veins. I think so. I mean, really, I mean, whether you're from Wisconsin or not, it's interesting because I think a lot of people can trace back some connection to dairy, no matter who you are. I mean, I, for example, I've born and raised in Wisconsin.

1:19:51I'm not a dairy farmer. I'm not a cheesemaker. But My grandmother grew up on a dairy farm. My grandfather worked at a milk processor. So I think there's just this inherent connection to the industry too. It's kind of – it's who we are. It's in our ancestry. Well, this is like this kind of soapbox moment to be talking about Wisconsin cheese. I'm curious if you could tell anyone or certainly any listener of the podcast like one thing about Wisconsin cheese, like what you would want them to know. Oh, my gosh. You need to think of Wisconsin as more than just cheddar cheese. We make a lot of cheddar, but you wouldn't believe the types of cheddar that we make.

1:20:29You wouldn't believe the types of cheeses that are coming out of the state. We've got cheddar with blue veins that's been aged in caves. We've got cheddar that's been aged up to 20 years and is just this incredible cheese. Think about that. Two decades waiting for you to taste that amazing flavor. That cheese can vote. Yeah, exactly. So I think just wanting people to understand that, you know, yes, Wisconsin is synonymous with cheese, but the depth there is beyond what you probably think. And to encourage people to explore different style cheeses, to learn about the makers, because trust me, once you learn about who these people are and their stories, you will never want to try any other cheese.

1:21:09Because the people that are making the products in the state are so interesting. They're so knowledgeable. They are so talented. It's just such a unique place. Definitely. And I guess to close today, I'm wondering if you could shout out some of your favorite Wisconsin cheeses. What are you picking up the most in the store these days? Oh my gosh, there's so many good ones. I don't know which, what are some of the favorites that you've had? My favorites? Well, certainly Little Mountain, I think I've eaten the most of, of all of the cheeses. And I do really love that. The Asiago that we just tried.

1:21:40I don't know which producer is making that, but I feel like Asiago is a cheese that I don't really have as often. And so I was really enjoying that experience. Well, there's so many that you can't go wrong. I mean, Upland's Pleasant Ridge Reserve is the most awarded cheese in America. You cannot go wrong with that cheese. I, like Tom mentioned how, you know, yes, we make cheddar, but we make really unique cheddars. There's a cheddar called Vat 17 made by our friends at Deer Creek. And it just has this most unique flavor profile. So if you see that, pick it up, get your hands on it. You'll be so surprised at the flavor that that cheese brings.

1:22:13Oh my gosh, what are some other favorites? You can't go wrong with any of those great Bellavitano cheeses from Sartori, which are great because you can find them all over the country. What are other favorites? Oh, my gosh. I think the list goes on and on. If you haven't tried Marika Gouda. That's so great. You haven't lived? We tried that at Promagination, and it really was a spectacular Gouda. I have to know what's your stance on American cheese on a burger. You know, I think there are so many great cheeses to experiment with. You certainly can't go wrong with that. But why not try something more unique?

1:22:43I think that's why maybe why I come from Wisconsin and why I love our cheese so much. Try something new. OK, you heard it here from Rachel. Thanks so much for coming on the show. Thank you. This has been We Love Wisconsin Cheese presented by the Dairy Farmers of Wisconsin.

1:23:05This is Taste is hosted by Eliza Abarbanel and me, Matt Rodbar. The show is produced by Shalia Harris and Pat Stango and edited by Clayton Gumbert. Theme music by Steve Rydell. Visit Taste Online at tastecooking.com and make sure to subscribe to our newsletter for updates on all cool things that are happening.