420: We ❤️ Wisconsin Cheese: The Chefs & Cheese Sellers

28:19For some of the chefs, Trevor, my chef de cuisine, he really loves the flavors of Asia. He's a kid who grew up in Richland Center, which you probably maybe drove through or you will tonight. Teeny, tiny, sleepy little town. Its main industry is the All Cam Creamery where they make butter. And so this kid, he grew up with a different lens of what it means to dine in this area, in this region. And that's what we're trying to do always is make those translations. bring in those flavors that might like maybe be a little bit intimidating at first yeah but then calm them down with the fact that this food is produced by their friends and neighbors and the community around us and uh it gives people an incentive to try it which is super rad really really cool menu i'm just like really like kind of digging into the met meze and the you got underground meats and charcuterie board as well and then of course the cheeses so you've got car Valley, Uplands, and Sartori.

29:21Sartori, right? Yeah, Sartori. Yeah, great producers. Let me close and just ask you, how do you think about R &D for your menus and just going out to your state for cheese? How do you actually taste the cheeses that are being made around the state? Are you going to a central place to taste? Are they coming to you? How does that work? Because it's very much probably a full-time job to get the cheeses right. Yeah, so that's a great question. I have an amazing amount of privilege and a lens of opportunity doing the show for PBS. I get to go to a lot of these creameries. I get to meet and shake hands with Chris Raleigh.

30:02Or maybe it's the Alpinage Raclette, these two kids who fell in love, one being from France, one being the daughter of a dairy farmer here in Wisconsin. They met in Milwaukee, and they decided that Wisconsin needs Raclette cheese. so we go to their creamery at two o 'clock in the morning where they're actually making the raclette and we do a full shift with them and like you get to see them interact as humans and you see their love for each other but then their love for the process and then knowing like the again i'm going to go back to that idea that good energy equals good food when you have that happening and you pull those ingredients back i know that there's no way i can present those ingredients specifically the cheeses that doesn't reflect that love and care and that same energy to the customers who come in here it's uh truly a gift to be able to see those taste them you know i'll go to the local food co-op down here we have a cheese shop next door oh cool you went next door right oh yeah yeah noble rind i mean it's it's it's amazing for a town of 4 300 i mean we have like a lot of access to this really, really good food.

31:16So, uh, it makes it kind of fun and sporty. And what I love is like, sometimes my cheese preferences, and I don't say this out of ego, but like, I love it when people watch the show specifically cheese buyers, and then they get turned on to maybe this storyline that they didn't know anything about before they, they saw it on PBS. And so they start coming in and buying it and like asking for it. It's a, it's a tremendous, It's a tremendous privilege, but it's the way that I've had the opportunity to really learn about my friends and neighbors and their love and care and passion for the cheese making process that makes Wisconsin famous worldwide.

31:56Luke-san, thank you so much for joining This Is Taste. Again, I want to have you back in the studio for a full interview. It's been such a pleasure. Thank you so much. Hey, thank you. Really nice, smooth, creamy, and nutty all the way through. and a finish that's a little bit more acidic than most kind of health plans. So Ken, we're here in Formagination. We're at your shop right on the Capitol Square. And I've been walking these streets since the late 90s. And when I was a student here at University of Wisconsin, I never would have dreamed that there was a cheese shop of this excellence right on the Capitol Square.

32:26But clearly Madison has changed. Ken, let me ask you, how has the general IQ for cheese, and particularly Wisconsin cheese increased over the past couple decades since you've been running the shop? Yeah, that's a great question. And what I see happening, I moved to Madison over 30 years ago. And as you know, dairy, we've been making cheese for 185 years. So we have this long legacy of cheese making in our state. It accounts for over$43 billion of our economy. So cheese is always what everyone knows Wisconsin for. But what has changed is we have a wonderful farmer's market. and it's actually located right outside our door.

33:04And that's the largest producer-only farmers market in the country. So what has happened in the 17 years that I've had from homogenation is the infrastructure, it just keeps on exploding. And it all is because of the dairy farmer. You know, dairy farmers are pretty the heart and the soul of what makes Wisconsin great, how they care for the land, how they care for their animals, really makes great cheese. And what I've seen in the last 17 years that I've had this shop is all these other businesses are now complementing cheese. So we have people making really small batch cheeses that you can find in our shop that we cut to order.

33:41We love telling the stories. And then you also have the perfect cracker that go with these cheeses, the perfect preserve, the perfect cured meat. And it just keeps on growing and growing. So standing in the store with you right now, I do see crackers. I see chocolate. I see tea, all kinds of things. How do you think about the products you bring in to supplement the cheese in the store? So our first and foremost is first go local because why we want product that's less traveled because we find that it's cared for better. And we also buy directly from our cheesemakers in Wisconsin because they go to great lengths to hand select the cheeses that we carry in our shop, knowing that we're going to grow to great lengths caring for these cheeses.

34:21So the first and foremost is let's go local. If it's full flavor, traditionally made, and it has a story behind it, then we say it has something that we want to share with our customers. So that's kind of the way we introduce cheeses in our shop. So, Ken, we're about to open the doors. It's 10 a.m. And who's shopping here? Who are your customers? I'd like to get a sense of when you're looking to buy cheese and you're coming into from imagination. What are you looking to do? Are you getting cheese every week and having your little stash and eating it with your fam? Or is it mostly entertaining with the plates?

35:00I'd love to get a sense of who your customer is. It's all of the above. And because our store is located right on the Capitol Square, people that hopefully come to Wisconsin, the one thing they think of is cheese. So we got them a cheese. And then when they walk in our store, a lot of people aren't used to shopping, a cut to order European style shop. But we love to share our Wisconsin charm with them. So they come in. They may be visiting Wisconsin because there's a company that they work for based in Madison. They're here on a conference. They're here on a staycation. We get a lot of people from Minneapolis, from Chicago, from different parts of Iowa that descend on Madison on the weekends.

35:37And most of the people find their way on the Capitol Square. So it was very important to find a location in the city center because we not only attract all the university students, the government. Madison has really changed in the 17 years that I've had the shop. There's condo development. So it's more of a community now downtown. So there's residents living downtown. When I opened, the square would be dead at 5 o 'clock. So now we're getting not only the local shopping, and we get to know them. They come in. We know that last time they were in, they tasted Pleasant Ridge Reserve. We're going to continue to engage with them to expand their cheese profile.

36:14And then we get people in that are in places that cheese is not that important. So when they come in, they're like a kid in a candy store. Hey, man, we're back. It's going to taste some cheeses. We've been given a tour of your store, and now we're just going to taste. So let's talk about what we have in front of us right now. Well, obviously, I love Wisconsin cheese, and there's so many stories to tell that I brought some of my favorites, although just like your children, I like all cheeses. And in Wisconsin, we produce over 600 varieties. So I think I brought maybe five or six cheeses to taste today.

36:48Before we get to the tasting, I want to ask you, Ken, how do you think about building a cheese plate using all cow's milk cheeses from Wisconsin? And you're wanting to like kind of flex the state's capabilities and styles. Yeah. So first we find out, you know, what do you like? You know, it's so important to first go with what you like. and then we complement that. So the reason to shop a cut-to-order cheese shop anywhere in the country is because of that knowledge of the cheesemonger. So we like to first give you what you like. I like five-year cheddar. Okay, we're going to start with the five-year cheddar.

37:20Then we're going to complement that. You know, what goes with cheddar? I think a Gouda would go well with the cheddar. And then we always want to end with that surprise and delight. So something you never would have thought of putting on your board really kind of takes it to the next level. So the goal of our cheesemongers is really to explore your taste palette so that when you come back, we're always pushing you to the next level. And how do you think about the accompaniments on the board? I see some dried fruits and crackers, et cetera. Yeah. So I like to think go local first. So Wisconsin's known for cherries.

37:51Door County produces some wonderful cherries. I put some actually freeze-dried cherries on the board today. I also put some cranberries. And then we have an exclusive relish that we were making in our shop in 2007 that is now made by a small producer here in Madison called Quinson Apple. And they make our cranberry relish. And cranberries go well with cheddar. So that was one of the starting points. And we also have a cracker that's made here in Madison called Potter's Cracker. And that has cranberries in it as well. So it's kind of a cranberry theme. But then we go beyond that with some other accoutrements, such as mozzarella from Crave Brothers.

38:26I think sun-dried tomatoes would pair nice with that. Oh, yeah. We were visiting with Crave Brothers, and we got to get up close and personal with the cows. Isn't that an amazing business? I think they really brought Italy to Wisconsin. Well said. Let me ask you, before we start tasting, we noticed in your shop there was a multi-tiered cake, air quotes, for a wedding using cheeses. Whose idea was that? That's been a lot of fun. It actually comes from the Europeans. I was in London when I I was a shoe buyer and I was going to these cheese shops and I started to see these cakes of cheese. I was like, wow, I don't think I've ever seen that before.

39:04So fast forward to 2009, we decided to do a photo shoot and we were just playing around. And before you know it, the whole photo shoot was around these cakes of cheese. And they're all featuring Wisconsin cheeses. And if you're having a wedding, especially in Wisconsin, what I find is nothing worse going to a wedding and standing around where the bride and groom are taking photographs. So a lot of people will do the cake and cheese as the initial reception, then they'll do the traditional cake at the end. So it's kind of like a cheese reception. And then some people go all out. And we've had people that are cheese fanatics that make that their wedding cake.

39:40And I just want to jump in that this isn't just like three wheels of cheese stacked together. It's styled with florals and ribbons and all kinds of things. Yeah. So we like to partner with local florists in Madison or give you direction. If you're having a wedding in New York City, we can ship the cake to you. And then we work with your caterer or your stylist and bring it to life. So, Kim, let's get to the tasting. Let's go in. Where should we start? And you're going to point to it. We're going to taste it. You're going to tell us about the cheeses. So we're going to start with what I consider the most mildest cheese on our plate today, which would be Crave Brothers Fresh Mozzarella.

40:14So that is a cow's milk cheese. And we're pairing that with sun-dried tomatoes. So go ahead and it's this cheese right here. Yeah, and grab a little sun-dried tomato and let's see what you think. And do you think I should wrap the mozzarella around the sun-dried tomato? Oh, that's actually a great idea. I never would have thought of that. Oh, okay. Why not? You can offer that in your bridal book if you want. Good suggestion. Now, Ken, I've noticed some of the folks you've been hanging out with this week, they're like, before you taste, you're actually like breaking it apart. How do you - Okay, so we can go through that.

40:45Let's go through a little bit. Why not? We're here. Let's do it. Yeah, so obviously Wisconsin is known for wonderful cow's milk cheese. It starts with the dairy farmers, how they care for their cows, how they treat their land, and that makes happy cows. So what you're tasting today is Crave Brothers cow's milk mozzarella. We want to first look at it. So it's white. You want to look at the texture. It's very smooth. And then you want to smell it. And then after you do that, let's put it in your mouth. And obviously these are, when we tell the story, I think the cheese tastes better when you know the story behind it.

41:21So the first thing we like to do is first taste the cheese and then we taste it again with the story. And then we see, did it change your perception? Huh. Well, it's funny for us because we actually got to see this mozzarella being made yesterday. So we already know the story. So maybe that's influencing things. Cool. Isn't that an amazing facility? Yeah. To just see the cheese being moved around. I don't know the right words for it, being tumbled around in the jacuzzi of whatever it's being marinated in. Yeah, the cure. The cure. Thank you. Yeah, yeah. It's amazing to see that work. And just seeing the cows, like the way that they seemingly are taken care of in a good way.

41:58And it seems like it's a really state-of-the-art place. And I'm glad you mentioned that because in Wisconsin, we not only have farmstead producers, we have artisan producers, and then we have the specialty cheese. And each one does a different practice in terms of how they make their cheese. Right. And then Crave is considered a farmstead because you've got the dairy farm there and you're piping the milk directly from the cows to the production, which is great for fresh mozzarella. Yeah, it's amazing. It's like Italy. I've been to Emilia-Romagna and seen Parmigiano Reggiano made and it's exactly farmstead.

42:31You see the cows, you smell the cows, and they're making the cheese. Yeah, they supply lots of pizza places around the country with Cray Brothers mozzarella. And rightfully so, because it's a wonderful mozzarella. I could see it being good on pizza. It's a really kind of smooth and mild mozzarella. Let's move on. Where else are we going here on this beautiful board? Okay, next we're going to go to Little Mountain. And this is made by a master cheesemaker, Chris Raleigh. It won some big awards. You know, Wisconsin wins more awards than any other state. and in fact in Wisconsin if you're going to make cheese you have to have a license and we even have a master's program and Chris is a master in several categories of cheese and this little mountain won a top honor at one of the cheese conferences I believe in a few years ago and rightfully so because it's Chris's own creation so it is alpine style cheese that has a lot of personality and I think the flavors just keep on building and building it's nutty It has a wonderful long finish, and it's one of my favorites.

43:35Yeah, really nice cheese for snacking. I can see some cooking with this cheese. I can see some melting. But for me, this is like right in the wheelhouse for a snackable cheese. Yeah, and it's wonderful on a cheese plate, so I totally agree with you. We're going to pair that with some Door County freeze-dried cherries. And initially, when the woman brought this in, I wasn't too excited. But then when I tasted these cherries— It's so cool. It's so cool. They're just so refreshing. I've never had a freeze-dried fruit on a cheese board before, but it is such a fun texture. It's almost puffed in some way.

44:10Yes, yes. And you're hearing a lot about freeze-dried candy and everything. Like there's freeze-dried Skittles. And I think this is obviously one ingredient, no sugar. It's just strictly Door County cherries. Amazing. It's like nature's freeze-dried Skittle. That's a good way to put it, yeah. No, wow. Amazing. Where are we going next there, Ken? All right, next let's take a journey to Blue Mond Dairy, and we're going to taste their bandaged cheddar. Now, this is going to be different than the other cheddar I have on the plate. This is made by Willie Lehner. His family's from Switzerland. In fact, in Wisconsin, Chris is also his family's from Switzerland, Willie's family, she's making family that moved here from Switzerland.

44:50He makes, I've tasted a lot of cheddars from all over England. I've tasted Montgomery cheddar, Somerset cheddars. to me this is top notch in fact willie has worked with some of the top cheddar makers in england and he's produced a wonderful cloth bound cheddar so go ahead and taste it's wrapped in a cloth this is a lot different than the 15 year cheddar we're going to be tasting a little later on in that this is aged in a cloth and then it is in a cave environment and he actually has limestone caves. It's an amazing, if you ever have a chance to visit his farm, it's impressive what he's created in his limestone cave environment.

45:30And that imparts years of cultures that are really getting into this cheese as it ages. And it's, to me, one of the best cheddars in the world. That's really great. What does the cloth bound impart into the cheese? It's really the art of how that cheese is aging. And because of all the molecules and everything in the cave environment, it really just develops a unique flavor. It's similar to Roquefort. You know, it really can't be duplicated because if you try to take this and make it somewhere else other than his limestone caves, you're going to get a totally different cheese. Ken, there's like a real finish to this cheese.

46:09I'm getting like jalapeno, not to be Mr. Wine Guy. Sorry, I don't typically do that. You're getting jalapeno? I'm getting like pepper. I'm getting like green pepper. I'm getting like a lot of vegetal notes on this cheese. And it's really impressive that the complexity of this cheese and really I haven't tasted anything like this. Yeah, I agree. Wonderful cheese. It is top notch. Yeah. What are we pairing it with? I would say let's go with the rye cracker. So that's a company, a small artisan cracker company here in Madison called Potter's Crackers. Wisconsin's also known for rye. And I think the rye and the dryness of that cheddar really work well together.

46:53And if you want, you can put a little bit of that cranberry relish on it and see if that complements it. And to me, it's all about exploring. I mean, everyone's palate's different. If this is my first tasting of the day, it's going to taste different than if I had coffee this morning. Or if you just smoke a cigarette, your palate's going to be different than, you know. So we like to tell people that if you taste it, great. You know, because you can come up with all this vocabulary, but if you like it, eat it. Yeah, for me, it's like a cream cheese pumpernickel bagel in the best of ways. Oh, cool.

47:24Because that's Ryan pumpernickel, right? Yes. Oh, yeah. Great call. I like that. Wisconsin's also known for Lindburger. And on Lindburger, they use like pumpernickel and like onions. All of those things. Yeah. So good. What's the line on Lindburger then? And I think as a most young people have not heard of Lindberger. Yeah. So Lindberger is knowing for its high fragrant, like we stinky cheese. But Myron Olson, he is the only producer of Lindberger in the United States is made here in Wisconsin. It's of cow's milk Lindberger. And Myron's been in our store several times over the years. And one trick that he does, because obviously we don't want the whole store smelling like Lindberger when he's doing a tasting, he simply removes the rind.

48:10And once you get past that real high fragrant, it's a wonderful cheese. And Lindberger is known here in Wisconsin, especially in Greene County, Monroe, where cheesemaking pretty much started. You go to restaurants in Monroe and they have Lindberger sandwiches. But the younger generation, to your point, doesn't know a lot about Lindberger. So if someone likes stinky cheese, that's the cheese we'll go to. Yeah, Clayton pointed out the Lindberger when we were at the shop. and I said it was a little early in the morning for me to be eating it, but I'm glad we're talking about it now. And you know the nice thing is we have the Lindberger spread, so the rind is removed, so it's not going to get that, you're not going to get that stinkiness that you do from a block of Lindberger.

48:52Cool. What should we try next? Let's move to Marika Gouda. I love talking about Marika. So Marika is actually getting her master's cheese making, and she has five kids, moved here from Holland, is a rock star here in Wisconsin. And she actually got her green card because she won the US Chief Championship. And her immigrant, her attorney called and he said, Marika, I think we found a way to get you your green card. You just did something extraordinary. So I love telling that story because Marika only focuses on Goudas. And to me, she's become the expert. In fact, she is exporting some of her Goudas to Holland.

49:32So we're going to taste her premium aged Gouda. So she has Gouda's age several different ways. So very young, eight to 12 months. And then she has a year to a year and a half. And this one I believe is her premium. So this has been aged at least two years. And I want to pair that with Marika introduced me to someone that she, that lived in the neighboring town when she was in Holland, but didn't know him. And he now lives in Wisconsin and he imports these Stroopwafels from Holland. Oh, yeah. And I think go wonderful with her Gouda. So if you look at that little cookie there. Ken, you're blowing my mind.

50:10A Stroopwafel pairing? With Gouda, yes. So that little caramel, taste that with the Gouda and see what you think. This is not what I was picturing when you said a Stroopwafel. I was picturing like the thin kind of waffly disc. Yeah, so they made like a little cookie crunch. Oh, I thought this was honestly a mozzarella pearl. So let me know what you think of that. That's become a fun pairing in the shop. We also love pairing Gouda's with maple syrup. And Wisconsin's also a big producer of maple syrup. Really clever. Yeah, that's fun, isn't it? Really, really clever pairing. Yeah. I love that. And the street waffle, is it cinnamon that I'm getting?

50:46There's some kind of like warming spice. I think it could be like nutmeg, nutmeg and cinnamon. That's a really fun pairing. Oh, I like that. Yeah, I think that's such an accessible way. to taste Gouda. If Gouda might be not the right, it might be a little too extreme for some palates, putting it with a sugary biscuit, it's spicy. It is fun to pair cheese with chocolate or sweet because a lot of people don't think of that. Yeah, I like a hard Parmesan or something like that with plums and olive oil and cracked pepper in the summer. Salty sweet. I'm going to admit something. The first time I paired cheese with sweet was as an eight-year-old, I took a can of canned cheese and put it onto a Chips Ahoy.

51:35Telling you. Coming soon to Formagination Tastings. You're like looking at me, Eliza, like my goodness. You know, that's a great story because we had a cheesemonger that every time a customer would come in, they would say, okay, we give them the cheese. And they said, okay, now what you need to do, you need to get a package of Ritz crackers. So every time I go to the floor, he was saying this. So finally, I said, I'm going to bring in Ritz crackers. And actually, he was right. Ritz crackers go great with cheese. Ritz crackers goes great with cheese. Yeah. So we started carrying, actually, they came from France because obviously we wanted something special.

52:08So I imported Ritz crackers from France. And we had on the Ritz crackers, ask our monger why we carry Ritz crackers. Oh, clever. So wait, do the French Ritz crackers, are they a little different? Less preservatives. Oh. Yeah. Actually, I think they taste a little better. This is, Ken, you know what you're doing here. Ken did not come to play. That's the best idea ever. So we've got a few more cheeses to taste. Yeah, so we're going to end with the spicy cheese. But before we go to the spicy cheese, have you heard of Hook's? Absolutely. That's our aged cheddar. They're like in the game. Tony and Julie Hook.

52:43I love the story. They met in college and been making cheese and selling at the farmer's market, I think for over 40 years. And they took big risk because they started aging their cheddars. The cheese we're going to taste is aged 15 years. But we had a 20-year cheddar, and we retailed it at$209 a pound. And some people got it. Some people that are into artisan bourbons and whiskeys and everything get it. Some people just like, you're crazy,$209? and the story i like to tell is if you put your money away 20 years ago hopefully it's going to be worth more yeah that's the goal of investing you know so it's like they took a big risk aging this cheese for 20 years but the 15 year cheddar is amazing and i want you to uh it's that bright orange and do you know what they do to make that cheese orange that's a great question i've thought about that so it's a flavorless uh plant additive called annatto and hooks adds annatto to cheese because a lot of people i remember i opened for imagination in 2007 would come in especially from the east coast i only want white cheddars i do not want to taste anything but white cheddars what we tried to educate them on is annatto is flavorless it just adds the color to the cheese Chris Raleigh has another cheese called Red Rock.

54:01Did you taste that cheese? We did. He actually does triple the amount of annatto because it's that bright orange. But this is – can you taste the crystals in this? You said you like Parmesan originato? Yeah, there's gigantic crystals. I love it. It's incredible. I love that crunch. Yeah, 15-year-old Hook's cheese is really something to be treasured. It's one of the finest aged cheddars I've ever had. I'm a huge fan of this cheese. And try that with the Wisconsin cranberries. And then we also have that Wisconsin Cranberry Crisp. We're kind of overdoing it on cranberries today. But I think cheddar and cranberries go so well.

54:36Yeah. Great pairing here. And actually, the Rye Cracker would also work with this pairing. That's really nice because it does have such a large amount of salt crystals in that. So balancing out with the sweetness of the cranberry, I think, is a smart move. I feel lucky. So what is the price for 15-year-old hooks? Well, we sell it, you know, the other reason to shop a small little locally owned cheese shop is because the mongers get to know you and we cut to order. So we actually can cut you a little wedge. And some people buy a pound. So it can go anywhere from$4 up to$80. Well worth it. You know, cheese is one of those indulgences that, you know, when you know the story and you are with friends and family, it takes the stress out of entertaining because the cheesemakers do all the work for us.

55:23I'm very lucky to have a shop in Madison because our dairy farmers and cheese makers. They spoil us and they go to great lengths to make sure that we're always the first to know of any new experiments that they're playing with. Let me ask you, Ken. I'm, you know, in traveling the state and researching Kyle's Milk's cheeses, we're not seeing a lot of triple creams, at least from our point of view. We've only been here a little while. And is there a triple cream world and universe from Wisconsin? It's very small because the thing Wisconsin is known for is Alpine style cheeses. And the reason for that is a lot of cheesemaking families moved here from Europe.

56:02So they're more familiar with the harder cheeses. But because Wisconsin has been making cheese for 185 years, that is changing. In fact, one of my favorite triple creams is made here in Wisconsin. It's from a company called Schroeder Kesa. And it is a triple cream that to me is perfect on a plate if you want something fresh. And then obviously there's a lot of other fresh cheeses available, but triple creams is a category that's not too widely known in Wisconsin. I think the general consumer loves triple creams. Like brie, camembert is like really at the tip of our tongues as a consumer. So it's cool to hear that Wisconsin has a growing industry.

56:38Yeah. And I think it's only going to continue to grow because the exciting thing about what's happening in Wisconsin is we have these fourth generation cheesemakers that are mentoring first generation cheesemakers. And a lot of these first-generation cheesemakers are experimenting. They want to expand the variety and styles of cheese here in Wisconsin. And that collaboration, I think what makes Wisconsin great, is you can work with a master cheesemaker and enter this arena. We've had a couple of employees at Formogenation that are now working at the Center for Dairy Research and becoming cheesemakers.

57:13And there's nothing more exciting to see that happen. So speaking of expanding the kind of cheeses that are being made, I think the last cheese on our platter maybe fits into that category. Thank you. Yes, this is such a unique cheese. Great segue because I think White Jasmine is doing some amazing things. So Huma took a lot of her Pakistani influence and decided she wanted to impart those great flavors that we know in Indian Pakistani cuisine into Wisconsin cheese. And this tandoora cheese, to me, it's amazing. It's unlike anything we carry in the shop. And we were so excited to partner with her.

57:49An amazing woman, a wonderful story. And to me, this is kind of like the surprise and delight that I talked about to end our cheese tasting today. It's incredible. It smells and tastes like so fragrant and so spice forward, I think more than I was expecting. So when the great people, the dairy farmers of Wisconsin, they sent me this box of cheeses to taste about a year ago. This one just jumped out. And I have not met Ahuma as of this recording we're going to have. We do a segment with her soon. You know, we, I think of it as like a progressive cheese, like style that, you know, this idea of like flavoring and blending cheeses using tandoori spices, but doing it in a way that's really like delicious and unique and not just doing it to do it struck me as like why Wisconsin cheese is so cool and unique.

58:40That's a great way to explain her story because I think that's what we see across the board with our cheesemakers is you have the tradition and then you add the science and the art and the magic happens. I mean, it's four ingredients going to making cheese and there's over 600 varieties. So I'm curious when you go to a different cheese shop or to the grocery store or something these days, do you feel like you've seen it all or are you still looking for new things? No. In fact, I just returned from Colorado. My mother lives in Colorado. and that's the first thing I do is I go to cheese shops. And it's always interesting to see the local flavor of what that cheese shop is carrying because that's where we always start is what makes my shop different is that we work directly with the cheese maker.

59:23And if you're in Colorado at a cheese shop, you're working directly with those small producers. So to me, you can buy your cheese in a lot of different places and we encourage that. We're happy if you're eating Wisconsin cheese in Mississippi. But when you're visiting Wisconsin, And it's fun to see and shop at some of these local cheese stores. Ken, thanks so much for coming on the show and bringing all these delicious cheeses with you. It's been really fun. I've enjoyed it as well. Thank you so much.

59:56We're here with Shannon Berry, a cheese specialist. How are you doing? I'm doing fantastic. How are you doing? Good. How are you doing, Eliza? Stuffed to the brim with cheese. So pretty good. I know. We're at the end of our journey here in Wisconsin, and it's been a great week. We've traveled the state. We've talked to chefs. We've really, really, really immersed ourselves in this incredible world of Wisconsin cheese and producing really some of the finest cheeses in the world, if not the finest. With all of that, the but is this. We want to see how much we really know about this cheese game. Shannon, you're here to talk a little bit about taste versus flavor, what it all means to taste cheese.

1:00:39But then you're going to maybe give Eliza and I a little test. Tell us a little bit about yourself first. So right now I'm the cheese marketing specialist at the Dairy Farmers of Wisconsin. Before that, I kind of have a long culinary history. I went to culinary school at Western Culinary in Portland, Oregon, cooked there for a bit, went to New York City, cooked there for a bit, came to Madison, cooked here for a bit. And then I kind of tripped and fell into cheese in a sense. I worked at Formagination for four years, and they are very focused on the local stories, Wisconsin stories, and cheesemakers.

1:01:15So I was able to really learn a lot. And Ken, the owner, really encourages us to constantly taste. so you really get to know the nuances like cheese to cheese but also like wheel to wheel because cheese in a sense is very similar to wine in the sense that it's very seasonal right weather affects the milk weather affects the grass that the cows eat and so then that in turn affects the flavor of the cheese so i probably tasted the cheeses you guys tasted thousands of times which is which is really fun so i hope you're i've i've good cheese endurance right so you guys maybe have worked on a little bit of your cheese endurance while here in the state.

1:01:55What does it mean to be a cheese marketing specialist? I would imagine that cheese is a food that actually has a lot of grassroots marketing because people are so obsessed with eating it. Wait, was that a pun intended with the grassroots? Yeah, it was. Well, I didn't plan it ahead of time. Just being careful here. That was pretty good. That's pretty good. Yeah. The way that people think about cheese, especially maybe Wisconsin cheese, is, I guess, not correct. Like you said, We win more awards for cheese than any state or country. You know, we have some really wonderful artists and cheesemakers here who are working really hard.

1:02:29So what I get to do is I get to kind of go out there and be the voice and talk about those stories, those artists and cheesemakers that we have in the state, tell people how amazing they are. And then I get to pair the cheeses with some fun stuff to also kind of create these new connections with Wisconsin cheese. When you talk about new connections, let's talk a little bit about the consumer. How is the consumer nationally changing for cheese? I know you've been in the game for a minute. Do you have a sense of new energy in new areas? Well, yeah, I think cheese spores are just taken off, right?

1:03:04You see them everywhere. And so that's really inspiring, you know, and it forces us to up our game, that's for sure. And so I do think there is this kind of new excitement in the world for cheese. not just in the U.S., but I think globally as well. People are paying attention to cheese boards, and they want good cheese. They're seeking out the best cheese. They're not just going to go to the cheese aisle. They're going to go over to the actual cheese counters, right? And we do have really wonderful, educated cheese mongers at these cheese counters, so I would encourage consumers to do that. Go there.

1:03:39And then if you want the best in the world, you've got to look for that Proudly Wisconsin cheese badge. I'm really intrigued by this idea of taste versus flavor that Matt mentioned before. Can you unpack that a little bit? Yeah, absolutely. So I think this is a really fun experiment. When I go out and have people taste cheese with me and then taste cheese with things. So there's a lot happening when you're tasting things, right? Cheese and other things. So on everyone's palate, for example, we only perceive five tastes. That's what taste is. Taste is a perception. And each of us perceives taste differently based on genetics and then based on our life experience.

1:04:19So everybody's palate is a product of what they call epigenetics, right? And so you're born with specific tastes and then through time you experience, which is why you can like take people who don't like olives can keep eating olives and then they like olives. Right? I don't think that works for everything. But for instance, like cilantro, there's like actually a genetic thing where some people genetically they taste like silk. Soap. Yeah. Right. So one, that's fascinating to me. And then two, everyone's palate, so our tongue, only perceives five tastes, right? You guys know the five tastes? Mm-hmm.

1:04:51First question of the test. Sweet, bitter, salty, sour, umami. Umami, yes, which became a taste in 2002. Thank you, Japan. Yeah, beautiful. How do you describe umami? Umami, I think of savory. I mean, what you're perceiving is amino acids. So glutamate is one that's spoken of. And so I think jamón y barico is a really great example or prosciutto. So it's savory, right? But there's a lot going on. I mean, the cheese we tasted from Hook's, the 15-year cheddar, to me with those crystals, that is like, to me, that's umami right there. I love that. There's a lot going on in that cheese. 15 years of flavor development, wild.

1:05:32It's wild. And it's wild to think that you'd sit on cheese for 15 years. Like that is a wild proposition. Right. And Ken shared some with us that I thought was terrific. So there's what you do first, right, is you smell something, right? So that's called orthonasal olfaction. So you're smelling, you're taking an aroma, right? And then you chew, which is called gestation. So as you're chewing, you're sensing, your palate is perceiving those five tastes. And again, everyone perceives the same five tastes, but on different levels. And then what happens is in the back of your palate, something called retronasal olfaction, where as you're chewing, it goes into the back and all these volatile compounds, these aromatic compounds are being released from whatever you're chewing.

1:06:15I think I read that cheddar has like 45 to 50 volatile compounds. So that is where you really get the full spectrum of flavor through that process. And then my favorite part of it is there's also a connection to taste and flavor and food memory, right? There's a connection to the hippocampus, to memory and emotion, which is what I always say is why my mom's pies are the best pies, you know, because I have this wonderful memory of that. And no one can change that. You're not there. You're not smelling them being baked and feeling like the warmth of your mother or whatever, right? And so I think that that to me is just such an amazing part of the taste experience.

1:06:57So I really try to kind of create a memory and an emotion in people as we try to eat this stuff. Wow, you just summarized grandma cooking at its finest there. I've never heard it explained that way. Really, really fascinating stuff about the hippocampus. Yeah, so it's that the part of your brain that processes smell is very close to the part of your brain that stores memory. So there's kind of that association. Yeah, exactly. I love getting to hear about that and kind of keeping in mind that people just will inherently taste things differently. I think sometimes people think of that as a negative if you're told when you try this wine or try this cheese or this coffee, you should be tasting toffee and chocolate and all of these things.

1:07:37And if you don't get that experience, I think it can feel like a defect when in reality you just are experiencing the world differently inherently. Yeah, I think that's so important. I think people can be really intimidated even when I start teaching. So I always talk about that first. And even then I can tell people are shy to tell me what they're tasting. Like, no, let me know. I can like get to know your palate. You get to know your palate, you know, which I think then as you taste with other people, it gets more fun. So like cheesemakers on a cheese counter, they are constantly having dialogues about taste and flavor.

1:08:10And so you really get to know those differences in each other's pal. So you'll be like, oh, I know you'll love this one. And then you get really good at that counter, like selling the cheese, right? So you have someone comes in, they taste a couple and you get their reactions. You're like, ah, okay, now I've done this enough to where I can understand what this person is looking for, you know, what's going to be a delight to them. Yeah, I love that. And I think that's kind of an unusual thing for a food buying experience. Like there's very few things besides a cheese counter that you can go to and try a couple samples and then be given a product.

1:08:41Like you couldn't do that at a bakery with loaves of bread. Right, exactly. I mean, probably not. That'd be very nice if they let you do that. That'd be amazing. So let's get to this tasting. I feel like we now have a foundation to build from, but I want to maybe see if our palates have been fine-tuned, though, of course, it's relative, as we just discussed. But where would you like us to start? Sure. Well, we're going to start with, I believe you spoke with Crave Brothers. And so I have their mozzarella silagini, right, which is a cherry-sized mozzarella. And I think mozzarella is fun. A lot of people, they're very classic, tomatoes, basil, right?

1:09:19You get that classic caprese, which is wonderful. And so I came up with a couple pairings that are a little different. So this one today is a Rice Krispie Treat, a little almond butter, and then the cheese. Okay, usually I do do pistachio butter as well, but I could not find it. I think what we'll do here is just give our snap judgment to what we're tasting and see what we're tasting in the cheese specifically. I feel like this is – the idea with this pairing is to draw out some of the actual flavors of the cheeses. Absolutely. Okay. Yeah, absolutely. This is definitely meant to, like, push the – help push kind of, like, notes of the cheese forward.

1:10:05I always say there's, like, why do we pair? Like, why is this a thing that we pair things with cheese? I think there's two reasons. One is to balance out the palate, right? So think about, like, you have a potato chip, right? And it's, like, greasy and salty and crunchy and, like, it's delicious. but like after a while it kind of coats your mouth and then you take like a swig of a sparkling soda boom like that like cuts through balances your palate and the other reason is if you particularly are perceiving um sweet or salty over another thing and you want someone else to you can utilize a pairing to be able to do that okay so i think that young cheeses like a fresh mozzarella still contain like a little bit of that sweetness from the lactose you know but they're also kind of creamier.

1:10:46And so I'm hoping that the marshmallow and then the butter, those textures, promote the sweetness and the creaminess of this cheese. So that would be the point of this pairing. So let's taste it. Okay, so we have three cheeses, three different pairings, and we'll go to the first one, which is that Crave-Mozzarella-Silagini pairing. Cheers. Yeah, with Rice Krispie treats. Mm-hmm. Whoa. My eyes are closed. This is an audio experience, but my eyes are closed. I think to me, the first thing that's notable about this is actually the texture of the soft mozzarella kind of like melting into the Rice Krispie treat.

1:11:22Never thought I would say that sentence, actually. It's a wild pairing. It's cool. I'm super into this pairing. I think it draws out, I agree with you fully, the creaminess of the Grey Brothers cheese. But also I'm getting there's like a velvety mouthfeel that maybe I wouldn't have gotten if I would have just had it without a more stringent texture. So I'm liking that. I'm hoping perchance a little nostalgia, a little bit in there. Yeah. No, that's 100%. Now that you're saying it, it's like, yeah, that's a comfortable zone. I'm from the Midwest. So I grew up with Rice Krispie Treats as part of my snacks.

1:12:00How about you, Eliza, in LA? Yeah, I don't think that Rice Krispies are regional. I think they're universal. No, I know. Were you a Rice Krispie Treat person? I'm like, how dare you try to claim Rice Krispie Treats as a Midwest thing? That was bold. Talk about fighting words. But for birthdays, was it showing up like every three birthdays, Rice Krispie Treats, or was it more of a rarity? I feel like it was even like a school snack that would give us the little packaged single-serving Rice Krispie Treats. Right on. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is super good. Never had it with cheese before. No. How did you come up with this idea?

1:12:30So we have been focusing on 50 Wisconsin cheeses and doing pairings. So I kind of – me and another person sat in a room and tried things with cheese. If I'm being honest. So we did overall last year we did 600 pairings. Wow. And so and then I wasn't really like I could be I could repeat a little. So it forced me to get really creative. And when I tried this one, I was like, this is good. Is this good? Because after a while, your your your palate is kind of blown. Like, I mean, after after six hours of like so then I went in. We had this gentleman, Chris Fitzsimmons, who works in the warehouse.

1:13:07And I was like, is this good? And he's like, you know, fresh palate. And he's like, this is good. And I was like, okay, I'm writing it down. I'm picturing you in a room with like red yarn on all the walls, connecting all of these different cheeses and crackers and things. Basically. Yeah. Or it was just kind of a room full of groceries. No, I love that. All right, let's move on to the next one. Okay, great. So this is in Asiago and it's rubbed with Robles Mary and olive oil. And this is made by Sartori. And Sartori is great. So Craig Brothers, you met, that's one single farm, right? It's a farmstead, cheese operation, cheese making operation, family run.

1:13:45Sartori is a little bit larger, but they support 70 family farms within a 30-mile radius of their facility. So I think this is kind of another example of really fun, like cooperative. We have a long history of cooperative, cheese making and dairing here in the state. Great. And what are we pairing it with? So I paired this with a candied yuzu peel. I know yuzu's having a moment. But I think rosemary herbs that we know classically, it's good with like lemon. So let's see what you guys think. Oh, I love that. That's so cool. Absolutely. Wow. Again, the texture of the kind of chewy yuzu peel and the harder cheese, I think, is a cool eating experience.

1:14:28And then that citrus flavor coming in to kind of lift it. I mean, there's inherent sweetness in this cheese. To me, it reads sweeter to my palate. So then when you counter it with the sweet sour, you're kind of dialing, going towards that wonderful balanced moment. So it feels really balanced and nice. Yeah. I think that worked really well. That really came together nicely. And I think the rosemary and olive oil are still there. You get those flavors. Yeah, definitely the rosemary and the yuzu is kind of the immediate flavor reaction. And then you have like the asiago carrying it throughout. So Nasiago has very particular notes that some people like and some people don't.

1:15:10Some people get soapy to them and some not. And so I think this one, with the help of like the candy, you see right a little bit of sweetness does kind of help. I feel like these are ideas also for maybe a fun cheese board, honestly. Yeah. Throwing a Rice Kissy Treat in a cheese board. You know, you're having fun. It's for like a party or maybe you're doing a viewing party for the Super Bowl or the Oscars and you want to do a cheese board, which I love. That's why I love doing cheese boards. and throwing a Rice Krispie Treat Square or some yuzu peels. Sounds fun. I mean, we know good food starts with good ingredients, right?

1:15:44Why not for a cheese board? Yeah, I agree with it. All right, so the third one we're going to do a little bit different. This is our final pairing, but you have something in mind, Shannon. We're going to have you guess, I guess, the cheese, because I believe you tasted this cheese. And then we'll see. Let's see if you can guess what the pairing is. Yeah, let's do it. But we're not allowed to try the topping separately, right? Like it's all in one? All in one. I feel that's the way to do it. Okay. Yeah. All right. Let's go in. This one's different. I know the cheese. Which is? It's a Hook's 15.

1:16:17Hook's Brothers 15 here. That's correct. Which is a strong cheese. It's really. And having it in this context and not on a cheese board with Ken makes me appreciate a little bit more, to be honest. Yeah. It has those huge crystals in it, which are so delicious. Okay, the pairing. I have an idea. You have an idea? I have like a sketch, but it's not. Let's say it at the same time. It's not going to be the same thing. So one, two, three, and then we'll say the word, okay? Does that sound fair, Shannon? Sure, there's two things on this. Oh, there's two pairings. I got one of them. I got one. One, two, three.

1:16:52Umaboshi. Wow, that's good. Is it honey and umaboshi together? Yeah, it's hot. What? Yes! It's umaboshi? It's hot honey. I'm really shocked you got in with Boshi. We're professional. Wow. Very well. Are you kidding me? This is not for Hollywood. We did not discuss this. Yeah, it's 15-year cheddar. Because I think with 15-year cheddar, you want to celebrate those 15 years. You don't want to shy away from that strong flavor. And so I hope they're really, really kick you in the mouth, I guess, with this one. The honey I got, maybe I need a little more. I didn't get a lot of heat on my honey, but it is nice when you get the heat from the hot.

1:17:26Because it is hot honey that I put on there. Right now, on like one specific part of my tongue, I think I have the hot from the honey. The honey was the first flavor that I got. And then I first, aesthetically, I thought it was, it looked like it was anchovy on it or something. Oh, you were worried? No, I love anchovies. So I was ready for that. But then I knew it wasn't. I thought umeboshi just because there's like, for Japanese plum, salted Japanese plum is what this is. And that, to me, has such a level of saltiness that for it to shine through beyond the 15-year hooks, cheddar. I was like, this is that's it.

1:18:01You also tipped your hat a bit. You're like in the Yuzu game. I'm like, you know. Oh, I set you up with the Yuzu. I don't know. I mean, maybe not. I wasn't really thinking that, to be honest. I'm more of a PostScript, but look at us with the pairing. That was great. Yeah, man. That was really good. I'm impressed. I'm very impressed. Jen, you see some chefs out there, so I feel I feel a rush. I do. So I think with age, cheddar is like 15 year, which is really rare. It is. So flavor starts in the vat, right? So the way cheese is made is usually the milk is pasteurized, sometimes not. But then they add microflora.

1:18:36If it's raw milk, then there's natural microflora. And that adds flavor. It also helps. So the microflora consumes lactose and creates lactic acid, right? So that cheese, imagine like lactic acid being created for that long, which is why people use the term sharp within each cheddar. I think it's like acidic and bitter. which also are flavors that people can switch in their mind, which is interesting. But really the flavor development happens after. So they add the microflora in and you just kind of wait. You wait for the fats and the proteins to break down. And then you get these amazing flavors.

1:19:10So then Tony Hook, who makes that cheese, has to watch. I mean, he's tasting these batches over and over, right? Because it could hit four years and it could really go like, you know, there's always that chance where it gets too bitter or too acidic, you know? So this is like a lot of care actually goes into aged cheeses. Is he drilling into the core? How does he taste from wheels? What's that process? Yeah, probably a trier. Probably a trier. Maybe he opens one up. Yeah, yeah. Sure. But this is like 15 years aging anything. I mean, it's such an investment. Yeah, what is the oldest cheese you've tried?

1:19:44So he also does every five years. Tony Hook does a 20-year. Yeah. I do think cheeses have a threshold too where it's like, all right. I don't know if it's really good to have a cheese that's over 20 years old. But yeah, some years they're good. And I know it goes up and down, you know. I guess I'm curious as someone who's tasted so much cheese for a good amount of your career, what gets you excited about cheese at this point? So many things. I just love cheese. I really do. ACS is coming up. And they have a test, the Certified Cheese Professional, which I was able to take and pass last year. Oh, yeah.

1:20:22Nice. Congrats. But they have like the Meet the Cheese Maker thing. And there's just – I still will walk around and get like so excited about all the different cheeses that I get a taste. Because, again, cheese changes, you know. They should put vintages on cheese too. No, they should. I mean Tony Hooks is kind of changing that game. We'll put numbers on it. We'll put numbers on cheeses. It's rare. I mean we see it in Italy a bit with some of the Amelia Romagna cheeses. But before we let you go, Shannon, I've been actually thinking about this all week when we've been here in Wisconsin. Grilled cheese sandwich.

1:20:58What is the best or your favorite Wisconsin cheese to put into a grilled cheese sandwich? One of the best, like most simple ones I've had is Andy Hatch's Pleasant Ridge Reserve with like a mostarda and like a little spicy mostarda. I think that might be my favorite. Although I did try once, Marika has a fenugreek gouda, which is like a caramely one. And I did that once with a truffle mustard, and that was phenomenal. These are really cool pairings. I think those are the two that come to mind right now. I love mustard. I'm going to walk out of this room and be like, oh, I have two more. I know you're going to.

1:21:36Well, maybe you write a book about it. Can you imagine a 100 grilled cheese book? I think that's a, I think. It's probably been done. I'm sure someone has done it. But has that person who's done it ever paired mozzarella with a Rice Krispie treat before? I'm not sure. I'll have to ask her. I think Laura Worland has a grilled cheeseburger. Can you grill a Rice Krispie treat and make a sandwich out of a Rice Krispie treat? You know, I think I've seen people do like the s'more thing where they put it over a fire. Yeah, I just think you could do that. But if you are the person that has to clean your grill, maybe you don't want to.

1:22:07Shannon Berry, this has been such a fun conversation. Thank you so much for joining This Is Taste. Yeah, my pleasure. Thanks for having me.

1:22:23Eliza, we're wrapping up these two episodes right now with one of our, I call it classic taste three things, right? Feels about right. Yeah, I think there's no better way to close it out than with our three favorites from this trip. But it's, yeah, it's not exactly the traditional three things that we like to do randomly. It's all related to our trip to Wisconsin. We've been here for the week. We've heard from so many folks in these episodes, but we want to go over our three things. What's your first one? My first thing is the Hook's 15-year aged cheddar that we got to experience twice on this trip.

1:22:54We got to try it at Formagination yesterday and then also today in the studio. I don't think I've ever had a cheese that old before. And it just has those huge crystals of salt. Actually, I learned that they're called calcium lactate crystals. And that kind of caramelly flavor. I think that just getting to try cheese that's been pushed and held for such a long time was really cool. I love what's happening here in Wisconsin with Hooks. I think putting an age statement on cheeses makes a lot of sense. You don't see it everywhere. It's a lot of investment in the cheese industry. And I think, you know, it's a sharp cheddar.

1:23:30I mean, it's as sharp as it gets. And really, we had a nice pairing with it. I thought that was cool. But we also I think that an age statement says a lot about value and it's perceived value in many ways because an age means money, but perception is reality. So oftentimes I'm glad to see they can get actually the prices that they deserve for it. Yeah. And I don't think it's made as like a cash play, certainly, because they're sitting on it for such a long period of time. It's really just letting the cheese develop that character. And it was really cool to get to try it. What's your first thing?

1:24:01First thing is the cheese board at Driftless Cafe in Viroqua. You know, we had a lot of different cheese boards and ways cheese is served in many, many highlights. But what Luke Zahn has done at his restaurant, I like the way he paired the three cheeses throughout the state of Wisconsin with watermelon radish. He had a sour cherry jam and a pear jam that was purchased from an Amish community nearby. there was a sourdough that was done by a young baker that felt like I'd just been to San Francisco and I haven't had sourdough that good since I mean even in San Francisco so I felt like you know I'm gonna like say it's not just the cheese which was tremendous but it was like what went with the cheese at Driftless he does a pickled onions too it had a story Luke's a storyteller and each element of his cheese board had a great story to it.

1:24:57So I really enjoyed that meal there. Yeah, I think for me, my favorite part about getting to meet Luke and be at Driftless was just how much he clearly cares about knowing everybody in the community and really highlighting their produce and whatever they're making on the menu, they have it all highlighted. And I think that even that cheese board was really just kind of a manifestation of all these connections between growers and producers and chefs in that part of Wisconsin. Yeah, good call. What's your next one? My next one is the Little Mountain Raleigh cheese that I tried, but specifically the pairing that we got to have at Homagination because it was pairing this kind of nutty, heavier Alpine cheese with freeze-dried cherries.

1:25:32Oh, yeah. That was amazing. I love that. I thought it was so cool. I'd never had freeze-dried fruit on a cheese board before, and it has that really fun kind of like expansive, puffy texture, the tartness and the sweetness that's so concentrated. It reminded me of a freeze-dried Skittle, which I also love and maybe would put on a cheese board now after that experience. I'm really into the freeze-dried nature of the pairing. I feel like freeze-dried is the next dried. Freeze-dried is the next dried. You heard it here first. What's your next thing? I'm actually going to just expand on your precise freeze-dried statement with just the general promogination universe.

1:26:10We've had a couple folks on the show who worked at promogination. we've had folks who go there like Tori Miller was at the shop an hour before we had a meal at wall so that was important so like Shannon worked there as well we heard from Shannon earlier so honestly I'm going to say my second one is Ken Monteleone and what he's done at Formagination for 17 years he's run this shop in on the square in Madison Wisconsin we have a great interview with him but really let's just think about what that means 17 years of operating in a state that does great cheese, but it has had, I would say, less public acclaim than it deserves over these years.

1:26:52And he's had to work really hard to keep it local and not just do the easy thing and just serve some French and Italian cheeses, which I think a lot of cheese shops will do. Ken is a real dedication to local farmers and producers and is pushing to get a variety of styles that you can sell in a store. It's a beautiful store. I love the way it's merchandised. There's amazing products from all over the state that you can pick up. jams, jellies, preserves. There's great books there. There's a small wine selection. It's a tight list of wines. And really, the sandwiches are beautiful. And the staff, I just want to close with that.

1:27:24The staff there at Formagination, they're really dedicated to learning about cheese and really helping guests build their cheese boards for events and just pick up some snacking cheeses. So listen, if you're in Madison, Wisconsin in the next bit, you should look up Ken at Fromage Nation, make a stop there and definitely buy some Wisconsin cheese? Yeah, I would say walking around with Ken was kind of like walking around with the mayor of Madison. He was saying hi to everybody on the street. People were saying hi to him. And he says that he just has so much pride in the community that is around the shop.

1:27:59And I think that's really special. What's your final one, Liz? My final one is the condiment cow at Utterly Brothers Dairy. We were driving through Wisconsin, and going to the farms and needed something to eat. And we saw a giant cow on the side of the road, fake cow. So of course we had to pull over and go eat there. And I was looking for some condiments to go with my fries. And the teenager working behind the counter said, oh yeah, just go milk it from the cow. And I said, excuse me? And turned around and there was like a giant plastic cow that said condiment cow with these kind of udders filled with, I'm sorry, it's so gross to say, but udders filled with barbecue sauce and mustard and ketchup and all of the things.

1:28:37And all the things like ranch dressing too. Yeah, that you could like, you know, milk out of the cow into the cup. And, you know, as a New Yorker who's visiting the state of Wisconsin, like I think that was exactly what I hope to get out of my experience. So shout out to the condiment cow. I don't think New York is ready for you, but I hope that one day we will be. I just got to say it's probably one of my favorite. Udderley Brothers is probably one of my favorite stops along the way. It just felt purely Wisconsin. And I'd love to go back. What's your third thing? Oh, man. I have to close this, these special two episodes, which, you know, we had such a blast here in Wisconsin.

1:29:14And really, it's a real honor to be here and talking to all the cheese farmers, cheese makers, and just really get a sense of this very special community. And the last one, I want to maybe pivot slightly away from cheese only because I can't do a podcast without mentioning the Wisconsin ice cream. And as a proud University of Wisconsin graduate 2002, having attended the school and had my freshman year living at the Lakeshore dorms nearby, I have to give Babcock Dairy a healthy shout out. Is it the best ice cream I've ever had? It is not the best ice cream I've ever had. And you know what? That's not what it's about.

1:29:54It's about walking from your dorm and getting ice cream whenever you want. That's truly what I got to do when I went here. It's about walking from my hotel room a few days ago at 7.15 in the morning, arriving at 8.01 in the morning, and having three staffers there available to sell me all the ice cream I want in the world at 8.01 in the morning. I love the Babcock Dairy. I want to shout out a couple flavors I tried. badger blast fudge and dark chocolate flakes get ready eliza this one i think you would have liked or you may like we might have we might head there later today orange custard chocolate chip what do you think whoa um maybe i don't know chocolate orange i know that's such a thing such a beloved thing it's not something i was raised on so i don't think i have that inherent love for it you know when you said you thought i was gonna like it i thought it was gonna be chocolate peanut butter so i think i just had to recalibrate my expectations i i i just threw you a random there's the honey badger which is honey ice cream with graham cracker crumble love that but i asked the guy i was like what's the most popular flavor mocha macchiato was his answer mocha macchiato is coffee ice cream they gotta have a hooks 15 year cheddar flavor at babcock dairy yeah that would be a choice i like that you had the macchiato flavor for breakfast i think that's definitely had it for breakfast fitting flavor but let's close and talk about about cheese one last time.

1:31:18I just feel like cheese ice cream, aged cheese ice cream could absolutely slay. It'd be such a great, bring it to New York, Hook's 15-year ice cream. Yeah, it does seem like a salt and straw flavor kind of vibe. It feels like salt and straw and that's a big rival to Babcock. I feel like let's get Babcock to work with the cheese producers and absolutely bring Hook's 15-year ice cream form to New York. I will be waiting. Eliza will be waiting. Please make this happen, Babcock Dairy. I know you can. we're all rooting for you we're rooting for you but I feel that's a great way to close it with a little sweet and savory and salty treat we made it through Wisconsin we are not lactose intolerant no never our bones are going to be so strong from all the calcium I love it what an honor and joy to do this these couple episodes I love it and I hope that we can come back and do another few episodes I think there's way more stories to talk about let's make this a semi-annual thing I think we should come back in a couple years see what's going on let's do it Definitely.

1:32:16Thank you to the state of Wisconsin. And a special thanks to Rachel Kerr and Liz Fitzsimmons and the entire staff at the Dairy Farmers of Wisconsin. It's been so fun collaborating with you on these episodes. You made it really fun to travel Wisconsin, travel the state so you meet all these great farmers and cheesemakers and chefs and everyone who works in the world of Wisconsin cheese. It's just such an honor. I loved doing it. Yeah, it was such a pleasure. And somehow I still want more cheese. So that's probably the best thing I could say. Thanks, Eliza. Thanks, Matt. This has been We Love Wisconsin Cheese, presented by the Dairy Farmers of Wisconsin.

1:33:02This is Taste is hosted by Eliza Abarbanel and me, Matt Rodbar. The show is produced by Shalia Harris and Pat Stango and edited by Clayton Gumbert. Theme music by Steve Rydell. Visit Taste Online at tastecooking.com and make sure to subscribe to our newsletter for updates on all cool things that are happening.