423: Fart Sandwich Artist with Dennis Lee

0:28This episode is brought to you by Resi and American Express. This is really like a food accessible town, but everybody just wants to know about the same 10 chefs over and over and over again. And that's not what it is. People don't go out for that stuff. That's like the once a year, twice a year, can't get the reservation thing. That's not real Chicago.

0:52This is Taste. I'm your host, Matt Rodbart.

0:59Dennis Lee is the iconoclastic Chicago-based food writer and newsletter daddy behind two great sends, Food is Stupid and The Party Cut. On this episode, Dennis and I have a great talk about the Chicago restaurant scene, his unique place in food media, and how his Korean-American heritage informs so much of his work. We also dig into the Chicago hot dog and how it just might be one of the world's most perfect foods. Also on the show, Eliza and I, along with producer Clayton, pay a visit to the legendary Chicago hot dog stand, Superdog, for a This Is Taste field report. What a fun, tube steak-centric episode with a true original in the game.

1:41I hope you enjoy this conversation.

1:52Dennis Lee welcome to this is taste how are you my friend good how about you man I love seeing your face I haven't seen you in a couple years but I know you yes and we saw each other what uh for the beard awards oh yeah years ago you were just here that you were here to not not winning a beard not that I'm thinking I'm that's like so not true I don't care honor to be nominated yeah it was fun to see you we went to go see your family's house oh yeah that's right we just had like a nice long walk that day I loved that out in the Farwell Pier out in East Rogers Park my dad grew up right on right on Columbia and Sheridan yeah that was a good day I remember that was it was a really good day we had some Korean food I think yeah we did beforehand but man I'm so happy to talk to you it's a long time coming we've been talking for a couple years about getting you into New York and to our studio but man we came to Chicago We're here recording live in Chicago in your hometown.

2:43And I just want to get a little bit about your history, writing and and really what you kind of stand for, which is like just like this extremely creative voice driven left field view of food. I think it's really original. Your original voice. Chaos. I just embrace chaos. Whatever I whatever I can find and ruin for everybody. I basically just that's my favorite thing to do. It reads really well. Chaos can be a little bit tough to hang, but you figure it out. Let me ask you, Dennis, how did you get into food writing? So my path into food writing, you know, a lot of people kind of have like this.

3:24I don't want to say there's a like a one size fits all kind of career path for people, but I never intended to be a food writer ever. I was a big fan of the site serious seats back in the day when it was sort of coming up and you know it's a it was a blog so blogs are a lot easier to kind of like connect with and you know the voice is easy to follow along with and um I was leaving annoying comments in their comment section as a troll like like real troll yeah genuinely I was being a troll but I wasn't being, I don't recall being mean. Like I wasn't like one of those mean hit and run type troll people.

4:08Was it like to Adam Koobman? Were you like Adam Koobman? It might have been to Adam Koobman. It was just like all over. Yeah. You know, like who I know Adam in person now, which I think is really funny. Uh-huh, uh-huh. So I'd been leaving these comments and I guess the staff there actually had been reading them and I didn't know. You know, when you get the wall of the internet in front of you. Yeah. You just got a monitor. So you have no idea whether or not people are actually reading this stuff. So they noticed I was leaving these comments. And one day somebody asked if I wanted to go out with the Chicago reviewer to do to just check out a place and have a burger.

4:43So I was like, oh, of course, like this is the coolest thing ever. I'm nervous. You know, we have we have a go have a nice lunch and everything like that. And if I recall correctly, I asked to write like a little bit of the review. Yeah. Under my pen name or my screen name, which was Fart Sandwich. still to this day dennis i call you fart sandwich when i'm like for india go see fart sandwich in chicago that's that's how i think about everything fart sandwich like a food writer named fart sandwich so i i i did just a little bit i and basically i just wanted to get this off my bucket list was to be like oh man it's so cool i can have my something i've written up here and then um not too long after that they were like well what do you think and And so I started getting opportunities to freelance for them.

5:31Amazing. So you started actually filing for your seats. Yeah. They just were like, here, we've got some stuff you can do. I just went in headfirst. I had no idea what I was doing. Oh, my God. Props to those guys for hiring you. That was to give you the shot. Yeah. It wasn't about making money. I think it was like$25 a post or something like that. Yeah, that's the rate back then. Yeah, which is fine because then I got to say, hey, I'm paid for this. Back to the fart sandwich. Is it a sandwich that causes farts or is it a sandwich where the two breads are there and then there's farts as the middle of the breads?

6:06I have never actually come to a conclusion on this. All right. We can leave it at that. We don't need to dwell on this. It's a spiritual fart sandwich. It's a spiritual sort. Okay. But going back before you started writing, you worked in restaurants a little bit. Well - You did some cooking. It actually came after I started writing about food. Oh, right on. So I had been writing about food for a long while, you know, in a freelance sort of like here and there, write for blogs, write for a little local publication type stuff. And most of it was the writing was just sort of, you know, little piecemeal stuff.

6:43And I had never, ever, ever wanted to work in a restaurant. Ever, ever, ever. And I don't, you know, like a lot of writers have these sort of chef fetishes. Yeah. You know, when you look outside, when you peek in from where we're sitting, it's just sort of like a glamorous performance or a tortured soul or whatever. Right, right, right. I didn't want to because my parents were like, you know, they look, they don't, saying they look down on something like that is not. It was not their preference. It wasn't what they wanted for their son. They wanted their son to have a stable career and something that wasn't like, you know, so volatile as a restaurant job or hourly or whatever.

7:25So I was in between jobs and I was like, oh, shit, I need to I need a job. So my friend Derek, who I think I met through the serious seats comment section, said he was going to open up an offshoot of Polly G's. Brooklyn, which is originally from Greenpoint. Yeah. In Brooklyn. And and so I was just like, you know, I don't have anything to actually do right now. I'm lonely. I'm home all day. So why not help him clean out the space? You know, just do all the little stuff and then apply for jobs during that time. And then eventually he asked me, you know, if I wanted to get on board to start and cook and do stuff for the restaurant.

8:07I think I said no at first because I knew I was just not ready for it. I was in my mid-30s. You know, like a lot of the people around me were in their maybe late teens, early 20s. So I was like, and in your mid-30s, you're not old necessarily, but you also don't have the same mentality. You thought you were too old to work at Poly G's. Interesting. You thought that you were maybe past making a career change? Kind of. But I was also just sort of like, you know, this was a band-aid for a gaping wound in terms of my finances and stuff. Right, right, right. And I was horrible at making pizza. It took me like six months to kind of get into it.

8:44Just because it's like a matter of practice, patience and learning what dough should feel like, what your pizza should feel like. Like firing in a wood-fired oven is way different than putting something in a controlled oven where it's 550 degrees. In a pan, too, which really creates this idea of stability. Yeah, in and out. But cooking with an open fire, every night is different. Every pizza is different. So you have to learn a hard way. So you ended up just firing pies. You were working a Neapolitan-style pizzeria. Yeah, five years. Five years later. And it was partly because I had to and partly because I had some joy in it.

9:24And a lot of it was just all this learning and stuff. But those were some really, really great years to learn stuff. And they were hard years. I drank too much. I did like, you know, all that stuff you hear about, it happened. Yeah. It happened. It happened. Wow. it's like i think about it fondly and um but also it's sort of like a like it was just a hard time in my life but i'm glad i did it but a lot of writers don't get that yeah no get to do it from that direction it's usually they cook first then they write they don't they don't do it the other way around because they're not crazy and we're talking five years it wasn't just like a stage or some dilettante exercise what's it like back then working the line at poly g's in front of that 800 degree oven making pies is it is it does it get to be like a feel like a job and like really robotic or is every day kind of a little wild every day is a little different but i think the one thing people don't talk about in you know restaurant culture really is if if the day's kind of slow yeah because that pace really really messes you up for the night yeah like you're you know you try to fill the time by cleaning up your station and tidying up but you know you're still cooking for a live audience you know who people who trickle in during the night let's transition to local writing so you've launched um the party cut on subsec it's your second sub stack we'll get to your primary sub stack but i wanted to get a little bit into the local chicago scene because you have a really unique point of view you know you're from here you have a lot of history with the city you've written about it we've just said you worked in the industry and i want to get a sense, you know, just broadly, Dennis, like what is mischaracterized about Chicago in the general media and in like the New York City media, whatever you call it?

11:15So I noticed that that kind of traditional media focuses a lot on fine dining for some reason, and they cannot let go of this. It's the only thing that exists about Chicago, aside from hot dogs and pizza and Italian and beef sandwiches to me Chicago is sort of like the affordable kind of like you know for two people under 80 bucks you know like you can go out regularly sort of thing mom and pop places a lot of diversity in in the food and stuff this is this is really like a food accessible town but everybody just wants to know about the same 10 chefs over and over and over again and it's that's not what it is like people don't go out for that stuff it's that's like the once a year twice a year like can't get the reservation thing and that's not that's not real Chicago yeah we're talking about like a linear we're talking about grace we're talking about the places that get the big reviews yeah the ones that always get these cool pictures and stuff and I'm not that kind of eater I'm just somebody who likes to go out for utility almost you know yeah I love that you say this sentiment my you know my dad grew up here I've been coming here all my life and and I never knew it as a fine dining town I mean I never went to Charlie Trotter unfortunately and I never went to Alinea but I went to the bagel like in the north suburbs you know I went to um what's it called uh the Ann Sanders oh and and uh Sathers yeah and Sathers I used to go there I mean I'm just calling two things but to me it's a city of local people and people dining affordably yeah so when I go visit other cities that's sort of how I I just ask people I've met are online or something and they that's the kind of stuff I ask to do because that's to me the people who are even eating there reflect yeah who you're going to be hanging out with you know that city one story you did right and we will go back to one of the like I would say one of the main Chicago foods which is the hot dog you know you wrote this piece for BA Bon Appetit and and you know you wrote a great piece and it was you know really it was on the cover of the magazine your article and I like to because since Dennis like what makes you know the Chicago hot dog like cover worthy so I have a lot of kind of opinions about why people are so fascinated with this thing still it looks like it's just food in technicolor you look at it it is like almost all the colors of the rainbow pretty much there's like neon green colors you know bright reds bright yellows and then with all of that on top of just this cartoony looking thing it tastes that way too like take us through it so the traditional toppings on like a fully loaded hot dog if i screw this up right now i'm yeah yeah you're getting letters you're at fart sandwich you're you're sorry don't at fart sandwich but you whatever so it's usually a vienna beef hot dog which is the big manufacturer around here um and you get yellow mustard chopped onions sliced tomatoes this neon green relish that's unholy looking a pickle spear sport peppers which are very specific to these hot dogs you can't really get them outside of chicago and a little dash of celery salt um you can and cannot get it with poppy seed buns it just depends on the place how lazy they're feeling or whatever.

14:45And that's really what it is. How's the hot dog cooked? So there's a mix. You can go to places that serve primarily steamed or boiled, or you can also go to places, and on the menu it'll say char dog, in which case they'll char it on a grill. And with all of this on top of it, like all the flavors on top of each other, because it just puts flavor on top of flavor on top of flavor, but it doesn't hold back. It's like hitting you with a baseball bat every time you bite into it. You're like, this is impossibly salty. So savory. So sour. So sweet. So it's everything. And you get a bite with a relish, and this is like a candy corn.

15:24Yeah. Yeah. You're like, why? But then it's so intense. You're just like, this is hilarious. You don't regret it. No. You never regret it. I mean, if you're going to Wiener Circle or going to any of the other spots that you've written about in this piece, you don't regret it. I mean, it's a really, you're not having them every day. No. Ideally. I mean, you could, but you don't regret a Chicago dog experience. No, but ideally you don't have them every day, but they're weirdly one of the lighter Chicago foods. It's true, actually. Yeah. Because, you know, most of the volume is the toppings. Yeah.

15:57It's the one thing it's not light on is the salt. So you just got to. Yeah. If you have the salt, salt is, yeah. Chicago's not your town. Yeah. It's not a good blood pressure regulating town. It's a well-seasoned town, we'll say. transitioning to another Chicago food, I just got to ask you, why does everyone feel like it's okay to be a dick to Chicago deep dish pizza? So I've recently been thinking about this also, and I think a lot of it has to do kind of with the same cartoonishness that a Chicago-style hot dog has, except for some people, the proportions of this deep dish pizza, instead of being kind of like a fun, you know like cutesy sort of colorful hot dog type transformation this one seems like a nightmare to people where you look into a funhouse mirror and you just stretch everything out about it that you just make everything big you know like uh Alice in Wonderland style like like you take the take one pill to make everything absolutely enormous so and I think people like to malign it because is inside they feel guilty about enjoying so much cheese, so much sausage, so much sauce, and some kind of bread that is just there to keep it all in one place.

17:19So in their minds they're like, this shouldn't be something people eat. And how do Chicagoans eat this all the time? We don't. We eat it every now and then. And so they just have this mean reaction to it, but it's also pizza. so combine that with the fact that people are really proud of the only pizza that they grew up with like they're willing to be real jerks about it i know it's really weird to me i've been one of those jerks man i've been the dick i've been on this show steve de lindsay came on and was like matt you don't know he wrote me and i was like i don't he took me out i went to millie's i went to i went to pat's been to pat's like three times and i see the light and i gotta believe even deep dish even from the chains is still something to celebrate yeah i mean just last week uh i had stuff stuff from jordanos which is like a big local chain that's also national yeah and i hadn't had it in so long and then my first bite i was like i love this so good i love this and i love it because specifically because it it hits you like all those childish things that you want to filled yeah you know like you just what we eat mozzarella sticks no doubt we eat like quesadillas yeah we fill things with cheese and we love it because it's good and yeah yeah man so like i don't understand that particular part about it you know when people relax on that sort of thing i'm like all right i did my job yeah i like it and i'm one of those guys who's relaxed you are doing your job but let's let's let's dig into pizza a little bit more and and get a sense dennis um we'll say style agnostic what is what is your favorite couple places for pie in chicago so i'm a huge fan we we don't go there very often just because it's so far but it's a place called kim's uncle um pizza it's out i think it's westmont in um the suburbs yeah and they kind of retooled uh their thin crust pizza to be like a sort of a modernized um tweaking of every single aspect of it from the crust to the sauce to the sausage and all that all that stuff because this is not an updated food so they just did the little stuff you know all the stuff under the hood and then it's just an incredible pizza wow it was so interesting yeah this is the thin cut or thin crust party cut style like the squares and you know um you know you eat either a little or a lot i eat a lot yeah i'm bottomless pit when it comes to party cut style thin crust chicago style west michigan style i could i could crush two pies yeah because you come on it's waste it's light it's like pizza light it's like going to a party and having appetizers for five hours and like you know you just never get full yeah but you constantly are having those appetizers and it adds up to maybe like two pizzas worth of whatever and my other favorite now thin place is on the north side of chicago it's called frank's pizzeria and nobody really talks about it it just started um coming back i think recently like online people were kind of reviving it's people's interest in it um i think it's in its 71st or 72nd year right now but people still don't talk about it anyway they do like the traditional like classic version like the old school like again same format is it the one near humble park no no it's way further what is frank's it's just this like old school joint with like the like this like that sticky uh like red and white checkered tablecloth type um plastic oh yeah stuff where you like when you sit in the booth you're like i can't move because i'm fused to this yeah and definitely like cash only probably at some point so at some point it probably was yeah and you're just like and these pizzerias in chicago for some reason they do things like they serve fried chicken ribs pasta just as all this other stuff too for some reason it's like the same roster of food and that's how you know you're in the proper kind of i love that pizzeria that that you know that that temperature check yeah for pizza for it works if it has other items yeah and just like if there's wood paneling you're also in the right place one more chicago restaurant question and man we could talk all day about restaurants Akahashi Ramen.

21:33What's going on there? I've seen a lot of press. It looks really good, but I haven't been. I think you've assessed it on Party Cut on your sub stack. Tell me what's up with it. So I've got a pretty good perspective on it because I know Mike. Yeah. And this wasn't, this isn't like, oh, I know the owner. No, no, no, no, of course not. But when I was working for Polly's, I was able to go to Mike's house because I was with Nick Kindelsberger, who was the food writer or food critic for the Tribune back in the day. He invited me over to eat at his house. Mike Satinover, the owner of Akahoshi Ramen. And here's this guy.

22:13He's just this guy cooking out of his apartment, just obsessed with one subject. That's it. And the thing was, he was so obsessed. He was documenting all this stuff about ramen because he couldn't get the same style of ramen that he craved so much when he went to go visit Japan. So this dude just shared all his knowledge online, got a big fan following on Reddit. And, you know, I told him like at Pauly's where I was working, the restaurant's closed on Tuesdays. Maybe you want to talk to the owner and just do a pop-up. Just try it. You know, like it's, if anything, it's sort of like one of those things you just do.

22:51It's an amazing story. You encouraged him. Yeah, I just encouraged him. And then like eventually he got the guts to do it. And then eventually the pop-up thing happened again and again and again. And they were just the hardest ticket to get because it's just him. Yeah. Basically. He's doing like 100 bowls a night. Yeah. Something really manageable. But they were ticketed. Yeah. So, you know, just so he could handle it as him and a couple friends maybe. And then, you know, at some point there's always that question like you're really good at this one thing. open the damn restaurant Mike had a really good job as like a really good stable job Mike's a very smart guy you know everything he does he does well but you know this was that thing and so he like decided he would just go for it and so now that's why everybody is just just obsessed with it they're pulling for him I feel like he's part of the community and has done the style of ramen that everyone is enjoying yeah and unlike a lot of restaurant people he was able to just use that momentum underneath him like some people just start a restaurant yeah they don't think about um their previous fan base or whatever like they don't have one they just do it yeah and then don't understand why not everybody comes in but he he already had so much momentum it was sort of like this it's just going to be a success right out the door how's the ramen incredible nice it's just the style um so he does miso yeah uh saparo style ramen that's his flagship that's his flagship right yeah and it's if you go that's the one you should start with yeah i've doing the miso like northern hikaito style ramen was very cool and and i think obviously chicago is loves ramen there's always i feel like there's been a cool ramen shop here forever and and it's nice to know that he's really doing it yeah and his is a little bit more cared for and in that he makes the noodles and everything.

24:47He makes the noodles. Yeah, it's crazy. He's got the machine in the window and you can look at it. He's not doing sun. Wow, interesting. I like that. That's cool that he's going that far. It's interesting. I want to transition to your primary writing outside of the takeout where you're also an editor, but you write Food is Stupid, which is your primary sub stack. You've got twos, you've got Party Cut, you've got Food is Stupid. I want to ask you just first off, what interests you about home cooking right now and that you write about on Food is Stupid? So I think the one thing that people just don't talk about when you cook at home is how terrible your food can be.

25:26Our jobs as food writers is sometimes to glamorize your outcome, like make it look Instagram-worthy or whatever. But most of the time it's just like, all right let's saute the spinach that's about to go bad with some garlic that's been on the counter for like three weeks and you know um that's like sprouting yeah a little bit of green stuff you're like am i gonna like this probably not but like all right well at least i feel better about not tossing it so you know and that freezer burned chicken thigh you had like on got you got on sale like months ago so to me that's real eating yeah so i don't want anybody to get the the illusion that you know real life is what you see in a lot of what what we have to characterize sometimes you know so i embrace the mistakes yeah i embrace disgusting stuff i embrace things where you just feel horrible about what you eat i embrace everything about food that isn't good because i think that's just really that's such a huge part of it if almost not like 90 % of the experience is sort of some disappointment in what you're eating.

26:42You come from that ethic for a lot of it, and I appreciate that you also come from it. Like, I would say it's like a little bit of epic mealtime. You've got a little bit of this like stunt kind of nature to it, which I think is really fun. You make it really entertaining. You've done articles, you know, cooking with cat food, which I think is fun. You have a real passion for Taco Bell, which we'll get into. What is it like for you then to cook with these like non-traditional pairings, like really non-traditional? And I feel like sometimes you make things that probably taste pretty good that maybe come from sources that aren't traditional.

27:15Yeah. A lot of times it's just accidental. So I'm trying to think of what it was another Taco Bell thing. It was like the Taco Bell's like Doritos Locos Tacos for Loco Moco. amazing i know every element of that i think our listeners do as well that's amazing to get through it so i i disassembled the parts of a doritos locos taco and then turned it into a hawaiian loco moco and put four loco the alcoholic beverage into the sauce and that one turned out really well Like it shouldn't have sort of because, you know, you got this like corn syrupy like drink that's supposed to get you absolutely hammered in one can.

28:03Oh, man. And probably get into a fight with your neighbor. Yeah. And then you turn it into this like weird Taco Bell flavored rice with a burger patty and an egg on top. It's so every now and then I'll stumble on stuff that quietly underneath all the cooking was actually. Actually pretty good. Yeah. But also kind of a fun play in words, like just having fun. Yeah. Really enjoying. There's like a joyfulness with some of your writing. Yeah. And it's really like if I'm writing something, if I don't smile at just basically like the subject line or the header or whatever, if I'm not laughing right away, I don't write about it.

28:42Yeah. So like, you know, if I were to tell you something that I had in the works or something, you know, like I was thinking in my head about a cordon bleu recipe. So I made a gender reveal chicken cordon bleu. I love it. That's so good. I told that to a friend and like there was a silence. I just said the gender reveal chicken cordon bleu and she just paused and then just busted out laughing. And that's like five words or something, you know, like, like I just, I, that's what I want. It's very internet. I mean, you know how to write for the internet. Yeah, pretty much. In the greatest sense. I want to ask you about a recipe that you were so cool to allow me to publish in our new book, Korea World.

29:29And Dennis, I knew you had to be part of the project and you really delivered. With what is becoming one of our fan favorite recipes, the book's been out for a couple months now, the Taco Bell Bibimbap. I love it so much. Thank you so much for letting us publish it. Take us through this great dish. First of all, I looked, you know, when I first got the copy of the book, I looked through all the other recipes. They're so earnest and so beautiful. And so and then you see Taco Bell, Beep Meem Bop. And I'm like, oh, God, what did I do? Like, I'm like a sore thumb in this in this field of really beautiful recipes.

30:03And I'm like, Jesus. No, I disagree. I think it was really a refreshing play on ideas. And also it represented our thesis of Korea world being modern and being presented in different spaces, not the traditional ajima cooking. Yeah. And so I see it as kind of like the about the most global fusion thing you can. But I can't take credit for it because my wife figured this one out. Give your wife credit. So Davida, my wife and I had just been with family. We just did one of those takeout lunches with my parents and my sister and and just for hanging out. And one of the things that we had gotten was bibimbap.

30:43Just take out bibimbap, just sit around. And then so that was fresh on our minds. A couple of days later, we were enjoying the greatest fast food on the face of this planet, Taco Bell. And she was having one of those power bowls. And she was looking at it and she was like, you know what? When you think about it, a power bowl is literally just bibimbap. because they put all these little mounds of stuff, including rice, beans, you know, protein, veggies and stuff. And then there's sauce, which is essentially the same thing, like composure of a bimibap bowl. Maybe no egg, but, you know, it's just, it's really just the overall broad thing.

31:23So I was like, oh, well, we have to put these two things together. So I was just like, I just went to the store, got like pre-made banchan, you know, side dishes. That's the best way to do bimibap. And then just made some fusion sauces real quick. The first bite was hilarious. Like, it's one of those things you take a bite of, and then you're like, how does this taste, like, exactly like Korean food and Taco Bell? 50-50 in one bite? Because you can taste kind of that, not artificial, but that fast food-y, like, overly processed. It's an MSG, like, uber sodium that they have in the sauces. Yeah, yeah.

31:58And then you're just like, it just tastes like Taco Bell and Korean food. And your brain just, your brain's kind of angry at you, but it's so angry. Like you can't help but laugh after you eat it. But there's one thing that I have not told you since the book came out. Ooh, uh-oh. They discontinued the Power Bowl. Oh, I know. I did know that. Yeah, but before everybody gets mad when they hear this, because who's got the book, they do have a replacement bowl called the Cantina Chicken Bowl. Okay. And I believe you can swap that out for steak if you want. Interesting. So it's basically kind of the same build and you can do the same thing.

32:35I think our readers, I think they're very smart. The Korea world book buyer can be resourceful and figure out the replacement. Yeah. Taco Bell couldn't exist without another bowl on their menu. I agree fully. So let's keep on that topic because I think you said it very well. It is one of our greatest food achievements in America is Taco Bell. and I imagine you've been to the test kitchen yourself. I have not. I've always wanted to go, but I'm not cool enough to just go. They haven't invited me. So, hey, Taco Bell, if you're listening, you may have to pay for the trip. No, no. I will shamelessly ask you.

33:12I'm just saying one of our listeners may work at Taco Bell. I've gotten some DMs. So I'm just saying, guys, Dennis is here. Let's make this happen. I'm going to abuse my journalistic privilege and ask for my wife to come too. No, definitely. This is a family affair, of course. I want to ask you, Dennis, let's Taco Bell some tough love because I think we both love it. We go a lot. We have one in our town in upstate New York that we tend to go to quite often. I love the chicken cantina menu. I think they're doing a hell of a job. I've said this on the show before. Not paid for by Taco Bell. The dream.

33:49But what can they do better, Dennis? I want to get your take because you're really a smart guy and you understand what makes it so great. But I feel like you could probably give them some advice, some free advice. So right now, there's a couple things. The price is absurd. The price sucks. You know, for the money that you spend at Taco Bell for, let's, you know, a family or two people even, it's to the point where you should just go to an independent restaurant. And I'm not saying that just as like, oh, I'm a food writer. You would get better value at going to the Mexican restaurant down the street.

34:22I'm not saying that Mexican food should be cheap at all. I don't think you're saying that. But in my mind, it's fast food. These guys have gotten their costs down to the lowest possible amount. Taco Bell knows what they're doing when it comes to that stuff. So the price needs to be reasonably set. and then you know right now they're also focusing on stuff like going just go going crazy with new ingredients and kind of like the gimmicky stuff you're not into it well i i like the ideas but the thing is like they're they're they're bread and butter to me was taking the same you know roster of ingredients like nacho cheese and sauces and beans and whatever folding it into a different shape giving it a dumb name and then calling it something new because then when you develop something new like a giant cheese it that costs them money so then we have to pay the extra money to to you know kind of ties into the price thing so dennis we've shared meals uh in chicago in koreatown and korea in the korean restaurants around your city and i haven't been here in a in a minute and i haven't really given uh chicago's korean scene a closer look and i want to soon like what has happened over the past couple years for korean restaurants in chicago i know So, you know, Devon used to have quite a few, but a lot of Korean folks have moved out to the suburbs.

35:42What's what's good? What's happening in the Korean food scene in Chicago? So you nailed it with that little side comment on the head is that the Korean scene is not in Chicago anymore. It's going to where all the Korean people moved, you know, to quieter. Well, not quieter, but to the suburbs. So you're getting a lot of food out there. like right now it seems like bar food is really the thing because it's accessible to young people um so giant portions a lot of fried stuff a lot of things covered in cheese a lot of spicy things i think korean barbecue might be coming with a like having a comeback but more kind of like with a thoughtful approach to it as opposed to just sort of like the greatest hits yeah you know with when you got ajumma like the old ladies coming around giving you stuff it's less that and more kind of like the updated like, oh, here's some young, cool people to just like.