425: Great Coffee, Yes Plz with Tony “Tonx” Konecny

0:28This episode is brought to you by Resi and American Express. I find a lot of food writers, coffee is like a third rail. They're afraid to say the wrong thing. They don't know how to talk about it. And I think as all these new brands proliferate, it's sort of, how do you know? You can't just go to Reddit.

0:50This is Taste. I'm your host, Matt Rodbar.

0:59Tony Kinnicki is on the show today and we talk about the coffee company he founded with Sumi Ali. It's called Yes Please. And if you've listened to the show, you know how much I love the company and what Tony and Sumi have built over the years. The bag itself is part of our logo of this very podcast, which tells you how much I love it. On this episode, we talk about how Yes Please is bringing exceptional blends and single origin coffee to subscribers each week. It's a really smart business model, and we get into how it all works and how in the end it's the coffee fans that win. I hope you enjoy this conversation with one of the leading voices in all of coffee.

1:49Welcome to This is Taste. How are you, man? I'm really happy to be here it's great to see you again it's great to see you too and I'm so thrilled we're in LA and I'm able to have a conversation with you again I'm going to link to our first conversation in the show notes which was in 2018 when Yes Please was really in your single digits for the releases and I'm on record I'm such a fan of you and what Sumia Ali have done and built at Yes Please you're welcome and you're part of our logo for a reason. This is taste. You guys really not just ambassadors for coffee and just really cool and creative people, but week after week, you're making the best coffee and I'm making it home and I get a lot of coffee sent to me.

2:37I buy a lot of coffee and man, yours is my favorite. So hi. That's great. Well, it was great to be here. The end. You've been You've been a champion of us since our earliest days. It's easy. Let's talk about what Yes, Please is just for our audience and how your very unique subscription model works. I think it's really special. Yeah. So Yes, Please is kind of the sequel to my previous coffee startup, Tonks Coffee, which started in 2011, was acquired by Blue Bottle in 2014. And the premise there was that nobody in our sort of category of third wave coffee was really focusing on the home user, that the best roasting companies, the ones that were doing the most interesting sourcing, had the most sophisticated roasting programs that if you looked under the hood, most of those beans were going to wholesale channels, to grocery shelves, to restaurants, to other cafes.

3:39and the ones that were staying in-house where we had some sort of relationship with the customer, most of that was going to make beverages. So the person who actually bought a bag of the beans, took them home, made coffee themselves, who I would think have the highest potential to be connoisseurs of coffee. They're putting in the work required. Right. They're making the investment. They're touching the coffee day after day after day. and I just felt like we weren't optimizing for them, that they were kind of an afterthought compared to what the baristas were doing and what the shops were doing and the beverages and the training programs and the sales teams.

4:21And so it was kind of, you know, I mean, e-commerce made sense. And I think for coffee in particular, which is best enjoyed fresh, that the idea of home delivery for coffee is it kind of makes tremendous sense. So, yeah, kind of the thought was, you know, how do you build a coffee company from the ground up that doesn't, and no pun intended, that doesn't sort of make all the compromises that you see all these leading roasting companies inevitably fall into and just really focus on delivering the best possible product consistently to the home customer. And, you know, we were starting it out of the trunk of a car.

5:03We'd raised venture capital. We were on this sort of train that kind of, I think, all roads inevitably led to we either needed to raise a tremendous amount of money on a crazy valuation to continue growing the business, which was growing at a good clip, or we were looking at selling the business. And reluctantly, I think we sold the business, and there are a lot of lessons for that. Yeah. It could be a whole podcast episode. So Yes, Please is kind of the - The sequel. The sequel, the non-compete ran out. Sumi and I, Sumi was a princess roaster in the Tonks days. And, you know, we'd known each other for a while before that.

5:43And, you know, I always knew he had the gift of tasting coffee, made an excellent roaster. And, you know, we knew we wanted to do something together. And then the opportunity came to work with Roy Choi and Daniel Patterson on local, the restaurant concept. That was your first entry into coffee for Yes, Please was those coffees you're doing at local, which I think the big idea there was to do a dollar cup of coffee, right? Dollar cup of coffee, I'm sure. The previous episode, we probably explored that in depth. We did. We won't go into that. It was a bit of controversy. But we discovered through doing that that Tonk's coffee had been predicated on a new single origin coffee every two weeks.

6:27And doing this sort of forecasting and inventory juggling to make that work successfully was extraordinary. and and i you know not to digress into into kind of uh you know old man in the rocking chair talk but you know when i started roasting 20 some years ago god help me um you know blends were everything yeah um and espresso was everything in seattle in the in the early 2000s and so you know I cut my teeth doing an espresso blend that was seven beans eight beans all individually roasted the proportions changing you know very granular they call that dialing in the business you're dialing coffees and roasts yeah yeah and it was and it was a great experience and you know there was no sort of you know we were all kind of winging it I think everybody in coffee in that era and and it just felt like that was you know an interesting culinary landscape of how do you sort of you know make the best end experience and then you know the pendulum kind of swung towards this you know what i would call like single origin puritanism where you know we we want the the most authentic experience the terroir we want to know the name of the farmer we want you know for for a lot of very good deep reasons um and i and i think now it's kind of we've we're in this place where you know shouldn't we shouldn't we mess around with blending again and and so with This is how many years ago?

8:04That was 2017, I think, was probably when we were doing that, 2016. When the epiphany that, hey, we should think about blends again. We've done single origin so well. It's a lot of challenge to do single origin for subscription. Yeah, and I think the way that our little manifesto was that I think the way that a lot of coffee roasters approach blends is kind of a dumbed-down version for a certain kind of customer, or it's the bargain bin, or it's the place where certain types of coffees can go, and it's not really seen as like, this is what we lead with. This is like our culinary expression. And the central conceit that we kind of put our flag in with yes, please, is that there's no single origin coffee, no matter how good, that you couldn't make a little bit better always by blending it with some other coffee and that's radical it's a heresy is but if you think about it for like two minutes it's it's obviously true yeah now there are reasons why you might not want to do that that i think are totally valid i love uh i love this idea and and we can get into the fact that you actually do sell single origins now and yes please you decaf and you kind of your your description is not only blends but But the idea of blending to make the most excellent, the best, the sweetest coffee around and not being tied to the single origin is radical.

9:39And I have to ask, like, when you're actually cupping with Sumi and your team, how does that process work exactly? Because you are releasing weekly. And, you know, that's a grind. Ha ha. that we don't acknowledge that much when you're thinking about other coffees, which are released maybe quarterly, maybe monthly, but you're doing weekly drops. That's a lot of work. Yeah, it's a lot of work, but it also affords us a different kind of freedom that as a green coffee buyer, I can just buy anything that I like that catches my eye if there's room for it somewhere in the calendar, and I don't have to be too strict about that.

10:19So if there's a great micro lot that there's only 24 kilos of, great, I'll snatch it up. There's another coffee that there's 20 bags, two pallets of that we want to contract. We'll take that coffee. And it just allows us to say yes to anything good that crosses our plate without the need to say, look, we need this much coffee from Nicaragua for this part of the year and that that's going to fill one of the skews in our offering list. It's one of these blends that is well regarded and like a tentpole blend, like Panorama, you could say. I mean, there was like you can name any rote coffee company and they have one that's everyone knows you don't have to be stuck with in that world.

11:01Right. Yeah, we have a lot of freedom. So I think, you know, the first thing kind of people are concerned about, I think, is like, oh, well, this is, you know, it's going to change every week. Am I going to have to dial it in? And, you know, I think our experience is that, you know, we always cue to a certain strategy around how the coffee is going to perform and how it's going to be balanced. And, you know, we always disclose all of the coffees and the producers that go into each blend. It's so interesting to I mean, I keep my ratios the same. I lock and yeah. And then I just go with you guys.

11:32and it's like seven out of eight are like perfect and maybe one is like not exactly my favorite in terms of sweetness maybe there's a little bit of stringency could be also my water it could be also me like extraction times and all that stuff right but yeah i think if if you're in a situation as a home barista where you know every coffee you bring in requires you to make massive grind adjustments or change your water temperature or research a new pouring technique. That to me is, you know, you're making a hobby out of something that like at a baseline should be just kind of a just add water, easy situation.

12:11Are you, as a green buyer, are you checking out origin? Are you getting a go? And the other question is, is like, you know, one thing I want our listeners to realize if you're this far, you're kind of into coffee. There's a real seasonality element of coffee to seasons and we don't think about them with these general blends. But of course, with Yes, Please, you're getting your East Africans at a certain time. You're getting your Central Americans a certain time. Yeah. So, I mean, I'm not traveling. I don't leave Los Angeles anymore. Why would you? It's a great place. It's a great place. And I mean, part of the absurdity of our model is something I don't think I fully understood when I signed up for this mission six years ago is that changing this every week is kind of, there's no, it's taking time time off is hard.

12:58So at the scale we're at, it doesn't make sense. I mean, the landscape now is that what we would have called direct trade 10 years ago is getting an Instagram DM from a farmer who's like, hey, can I send you samples? It probably still happens sometimes. Yeah. The landscape is different. Can we talk about the state of coffee IQ? you? I think you're really well positioned to answer this because you have subscribers and you have customers and you have an inbox and you have social accounts. And what are your subscribers telling you right now? And do you feel that there is a growing audience for home baristas who are embracing, especially coffee, specifically really tasting the coffee and realizing what they're tasting and what they like?

13:50I think that the biggest change is that there's so the explosion of good home coffee equipment. I mean, we can talk espresso just as a category. Home espresso machines have gotten cheaper, better, more ubiquitous. You know, YouTube has revolutionized what the learning curve is like for home espresso. I think at this point, there are home baristas who, you know would would slaughter in a barista competition now that it's it's i i'm i'm excited to see the conversation move away from from kind of the gear and the toys into the beans and the coffee and see what impact that will have on on the way consumers approach espresso because i think right now it's still being led by people in the industry and you know peering behind the curtain i don't think there's a lot of exciting things going on and in espresso in terms of what the potential is um yeah most roasters kind of think of their espresso blend as like a meat and potatoes workhorse thing yeah and consistent margin you know not not as artistic in a way in the roasting style not expressing origin as much obviously so so i think there's there's room for more dialogue yeah between this this emerging uh home home barista yeah and roasters that are doing cool stuff.

15:08But just in terms of, you know, Grindr's fellow being, you know,$100 million plus a year sales business for, I mean, when they first launched their pouring kettle, I'm like, who is going to buy a, you know,$240 electric kettle? But it's, I mean, that's a huge business. There's clearly an appetite. A lot of boutique hotels in this country, I must say, Tony, a lot of boutique hotels got that fellow in their room sitting there yeah i'm joking but like that's like clearly a model like if you can get a like an item that can be in a hotel room that's like the coveted item there's a lot of hotel rooms in our country yeah i think you know very design forward and you know approachable for people and and you know worth worth the investment and so So I think, you know, I'm much more comfortable, you know, I think for your audience, for people that listen to the show, if you have a Keurig machine or an espresso machine in your kitchen, but you're also the sort of person who, you know, knows how to season your cast iron pan, like you should.

16:15Upgrade. Upgrade. Drop that machine on Facebook Marketplace. Get a Baratza Encore. Get a nice kettle. Like, you can make coffee at home. It's not hard. Get to Nascali scale for$19, get a Chemex, get a V60. Yeah, get that Encorus mine of choice. I love that one. Because you do it every day, sometimes multiple times a day. We don't think about that, but coffee is part of our rituals in life. And to not think about it in the same way we think about a lot of parts of our body and health and all sorts of our lives is a real misread, I think, of priorities. Yeah. And it's, I mean, it's, you know, one of the things that is fascinating about coffee is, I mean, we still sort of think of it a little bit as a vice.

17:01It's not, you know, it doesn't have nutritional value. It's you do it because it's a drug. And I kind of like to lean into that vice aspect of it, that this is, it's hedonism. You know, there's lots of ways to get caffeine. If you need caffeine in your morning, you know, there are probably easier ways than making a great cup of coffee or a requireless investment than having good coffee. But the pleasure of that, I mean, you know, obviously that's, you know, it's my life revolves around coffee, but I've, you know, 20 some years in this business. business. And I, I mean, I get extreme pleasure and joy out of every coffee I drink every morning.

17:43It's, it's, you know, always the best part of my day. Tony, let me ask you, what's the biggest disservice to coffee right now? This could be from an external force. It could be from the industry itself. It could be from trend. It could be from misinformation. I feel like there's probably some headwinds in coffee that you could spell out. Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, my, my answer to that for the longest time was, was that a lot of us kind of in this, you know, vanguard world of third wave coffee, whatever you want to call it. We, we end up creating the perception that good coffee has to be elevated to a hobby.

18:17You need all this fancy equipment that, that it requires, you know, this sort of, you know, you got to fly to Japan and learn the right pouring technique or something. And it's, and, and it's a lot of these kinds of false signifiers that I think we, we adopted in the early part of third wave coffee because we wanted to distinguish ourselves from the, from the Starbucks and the chains and the, you know, sort of commercial coffee. You need to be overt. Yeah. Very overt and very intentional. But at the same time, I think it created this perception that, Oh, this is, you know, Oh, you're paying how much for a cup of coffee.

18:51And they're, you know, like, like the, it got dressed up and all of these trappings of, of, you know, kind of culinary burlesque. And, um, Um, and it, it lost its sort of blue collar roots that, that I kind of always use the analogy that craft beer exploded on the scene. And, you know, I, in, in the nineties, I was a beer snob by the mid two thousands. I was just a normal craft beer enthusiast, um, because the snobbery was gone and the people that were making the beer, the people that were serving the beer, the places that you went and enjoyed those beers were very egalitarian. And I think in coffee, it was kind of we elevated the barista, we elevated the machinery, the opulence of the experience in order to try to distinguish our product.

19:37But we weren't really charging that much more than what Starbucks was charging for a similar drink. But our margins were very different. The labor that we put into it was very different. The technical skill and the roasting and the freshness was all exceptional. So I think we kind of trained consumers to look at these other signifiers and not really understand that, you know, coffee is simple. There's things that separate good from bad shit from Shinola. And I don't think we did a great job of kind of empowering consumers to be like, actually, you can do this at home. But we've evolved beyond that.

20:16And Yes, Please is a big part of the evolution and better coffee is more, quote unquote, affordable. We understand that they're a$7 cup of coffee. There's a reason for it and we don't complain as much. There's very few people who complain that there isn't dollar coffee in this world. Like 10 years ago, everyone thought coffee should be a dollar, but there's probably other headwinds. And I want to get your take on what the real headwinds are now that the next hurdle and challenges for specialty coffee to grow. Yeah. I mean, you know, looking at it from the perspective of, you know, yes, please as a business and a competitive landscape.

20:48Like I think that the tailwind, that the pandemic was clearly a tailwind for home coffee consumption that people who were hooked on the good stuff, like quickly figured out, Hey, I should probably try to figure out a way to do this at home. And I think that was, you know, a boon for all of these, you know, coffee equipment companies. And I mean, you just see it in terms of the, on every time you open up Amazon and look at coffee grinders, there's, you know knockoffs coming out of China that are a quarter the price it's let alone filter knockoff filters and right pour over devices yeah I mean hand grinders it's the proliferation is I did I can't keep up with it and it's it's wonderful but I think it also led to you know coffee's always as as a business I think you know the quote-unquote industry is really about minting new entrepreneurs into the coffee space.

21:46And I think for a lot of people, coffee shop is the kind of, you know, lemonade stand of business plans. And you've got a lot of people who, you know, they lost their big tech job or they, you know, want to make a career change or whatever. And their, you know, their dream is to open a coffee shop or their dream is to launch a brand and they have a passion for branding and coffee just seems like the thing to apply it to. So So I think now we've got this proliferation of, you know, celebrity influencer coffee brands and sort of, you know, new shops that, you know, run by people who don't necessarily have experience in food service or retail.

22:26It can be quite terrible and undrinkable. Right. But in beautiful packages. Well, of course. Wonderful. you can even get it in like a non-traditional package like a like a vhs case or a beaker from a lab you know they're doing every trick here and i mean i'm envious of some of that some of that's really cool but i think it's also a little garish to you know put more more money into the packaging than you're putting into the green coffee that's that's yeah to go in there and and and and i think you know especially for a product that that really should only live in its packaging for a couple weeks at most.

23:04It's a utilitarian thing. It's a little counterintuitive to spend that much on packaging. One of the things that distinguishes you is that you're a food generalist who is very comfortable talking to people in coffee and talking about coffee. And I find a lot of food writers, coffee is like a third rail. They're afraid to say the wrong thing. They don't know how to talk about it. They're, you know, they're concerned that they're not. And I think as all these, you know, new brands proliferate, it's sort of how do you know? How do you know? You can't just go to Reddit and see what people are recommending.

23:45I mean, there's no good resources. Reddit is probably the closest you're going to get. I mean, you're not really, you know, I think what Jordan and team does at Sprudge is remarkable. But certainly they can't cover every coffee company. And they're certainly not doing reviews. Right. I think, I mean, Sprudge, especially for if you're traveling is, you know, I mean, any of our customers who write in who are like, you know, I'm going to Philadelphia. Where should I go? Sprudge is always. Search Sprudge. Like their coverage of shops and roasters is fantastic. fantastic um but but yeah i think for for consumers that are just getting into it i think it can seem like oh you know this this brand had all the signifiers this thing that was at the grocery store like it fit it fit the mode of what i thought i'm supposed to be looking for in this niche and i was disappointed by it or maybe i brewed it wrong or maybe it it maybe i just don't like coffee as much as those people do because i don't get it i don't taste the things that it says i'm supposed to taste well we can get into tasting notes in uh uh in detail at some other point i mean tasting notes i feel is like the biggest crime against coffee is is is telling a drinker that you need to have bergamot in your mouth or you're you're not tasting the coffee correctly like right you know that can go fuck off like i i'm sorry to use the language but you know you should be buying coffee from places like yes please places like say you know places like camber who are just excellent roasters and don't need to have this like bells and whistles of these tasting notes.

25:15Sorry, I went on a little bit. No, I agree. I mean, I've started, especially with our single origins, I'm including more tasting notes because customers are asking for them. But man, I tread very lightly with that because I don't want to be overly prescriptive and I don't want to sort of tell people that like you're... Exclusive. You're tasting it wrong. You're tasting it wrong. You're brewing it wrong. You're setting up a - If you can't get the grapefruit out of this coffee. Grapefruit, yeah. Yeah, you can't get the tar out of the coffee. Sorry, that was a little bit of a rant. Apologies, listener.

25:46What's good in LA right now, cafe-wise? I mean, I did a panel once with a bunch of LA baristas, and it was awesome. And I just think LA is like the best town for coffee. It's so great on the cafe side. Yeah, I agree. I think, yeah, LA is a vibrant coffee city. And I think my favorite shops right now, I mean, I don't know if you've been to Hooked Venice. No, I haven't. Nicely's shop. Is it Nicely's new place? I haven't been there yet. I just love the vibe there. It's like one-man band in the mornings with Nicely. Nicely Able, great guy. He was on that panel that I mentioned, yeah. Yeah. So that's enough to get me to drive out to the West Side.

26:31Yeah. And he's multi-roaster. He's doing exclusively natural and unusual processed coffees, which are not always my cup of tea. But I believe in Nicely's vision and his execution is always perfect. You know, around my part of town, I go to Dayglo a lot. Of course. I was just there on Saturday. And Kumquat. Yeah. you know, so I'm glad Tony, you're like validating some of my spots. I love kumquat. I thought it was a great cafe experience. I had that day glow just as a multi-roaster is beautiful selection. Yeah. And, you know, I mean, I think we may have talked about this before, but, you know, I, I've kind of felt in the, in the early days of multi-roaster shops that this was not doing a great service to the coffee that you were kind of throwing baristas, all these curve balls and, you know, there, I'm not going to name names, but there was, you know, prominent multi-roaster shop where I would go in and, you know, frequently order espresso and I'd ask them what they were serving.

27:35And the barista who pulled the shot didn't know what was in the hopper, didn't know who the roaster was or what the coffee was. And, and that's like, okay, why, why bother to be multi-roaster at that point if, if no one's going to care enough to, to dial in the coffee. Um, but I think, you know, places like Dayglo and kumquat have kind of changed my tune about that. I have mixed feelings about being able to frequently taste coffees from overseas, roasted overseas, that there's a lot of European and Asian roasters represented here now in LA, which is more just, I mean, you know, it feels a little unfair that we have a, you know, a thriving, sometimes struggling micro roaster scene in the United States yeah and you know a lot of these Scandinavian companies they get you know government supports export of the goods and you know and they have universal health care and a lot of advantages that you know that that well roasters don't have in the United States for local support American I am that's a loaded thing but it's a loaded thing but also we're talking about Fritz just did a little pop-up at squirrel yeah weeks ago and you know that was that was great like I loved being able to have that experience and you know direct from from the people that that make that was the team there from Fritz yeah oh yeah yeah they were it was kind of a stop off on their way to Costa Rica I'm happy BT is it I believe so BT yeah he's in our book Korea world and I have to segue we have a large or not large but relatively large coffee section in our cookbook and I have to say you mentioned Japan as like an example of exquisite coffees but I have to say Korea is better and the progressive roasting in Korea and the cafes there please if you're listening this from the industry please go to Korea drink mash drink fritz drink around the city it's exceptional I just think there isn't a lot of coverage about cafes in Seoul great so can I tag along on one of your trips please Tony like you would be the ultimate guide for me I would love to go with you I would love to send you Rex I I have a great piece I wrote about some of the cafes I like.

29:47And I just have to say Korean coffee is incredible right now. Yeah. And you brought up Fritz. So it was really, really cool. Let's talk about how you and Sumi Ali work. You know, Sumi is your partner in roasting and in the business. And, you know, Sumi will be on the show at some point. How do you collab on each of these releases each week? It's so many releases. How do you do that? Yeah. I mean, you know, Sumi and Aaron Raymaker is our head roaster. And Aaron too, of course. Yep. Yeah. So we, we come from the, you know, cup everything we ever roast school of thought. And, you know, we do this thing called cup blending, which I think is, is, should be more common, but isn't where, um, so, or, or wet blending.

30:29The idea is that once you have everything on the cupping table and you're slurping spoonfuls of different coffees, it's fairly easy to then take, well, what happens if you do two spoonfuls of this coffee with one spoonful of this coffee with one spoonful of that coffee just with a cupping liquid? And that is revelatory for how coffees work together or don't work together or clash or, you know, and you learn all sorts of unexpected things. Never would have thought that actually translated. It translates incredibly well. And it's fast and easy. And at this point, I think there's just, if you have a big cupping table with a lot of different coffees on it, talking to any coffee professionals that are listening out there, I urge you to just like, before you clear the table, like do a little cup blending.

31:16It's easy. It takes no effort. And you will learn something every single time. So cool. And we really have been void of talking about origin. And we've had very few country names, which I think is my fault for not going in that direction. And when you're thinking about seasonality, about the way that coffee comes in on a quarterly basis, do origins naturally fit together? And do you have default percentages by origin, by country? I wouldn't say it's quite that specific, but there's definitely some tropes in terms of what coffees work together and or what flavors from certain coffees like they're they're you know washed ethiopias will generally give you a certain set of flavors that are kind of um like resonant berry like on the edges and we find that you know even like blending down to like 20 percent 15 percent on one of those coffees some of those flavors will still punch through as if you know as if it were half the blend um so you kind of like work out like oh well i i can always like anchor a coffee like that um and a blend and then you know there's there's kind of our you know what we would call like our glazed donut chocolate chip cookie kind of coffees like a a washed way with tenango guatemala like i will i will always go to bat for yeah watch centrals and centrals are uh that's an absolute specific um coffee coffee yeah please don't eat i think jeff watts once called it like coffee coffee yeah the flavor of coffee and and you know i mean to my mind like i think people don't champion those coffees enough and and they're to me that's the i would give me a nice 88 point 89 point washed guatemala over you know any sort of fruit bomb crazy experimental process we like different or we want strong flavors as a culture.

33:18So that's. Yeah. Or I think, you know, it's this kind of homework assignment mentality of like coffee connoisseurship where like you need to explore the landscape. You need to try every variety, every process, every, you know, the kind of FOMO of. And I get that. That's super compelling. And I'm, you know, I'm not immune to it. But like in terms of what I want to buy a bag of sitting on my kitchen counter and brew every morning for a week or two, Like it's, it's not those crazy weird coffees anymore. Yeah. Fascinating. I, I, I really want to have you back and, and talk about more of the subtleties of blending.

33:57I feel I'd love to get into a longer conversation about that because blending is so, so, so fascinating how you make it all work together. Cause like you obviously in lesser hands, blends can be aggressively bad. Yeah. Yeah. And I think a lot of that is, you know, blends are built by finance departments. Yeah. You know, before we get to the last section, I want to ask you, you know, you launched with content being really big part of Yes, Please. You launched the newspaper. I mean, you had various iterations of content and just like love that, Tony. Like the fact that you were putting out journalism in addition to what we just talked about was amazing.