429: The Art of the Dinner Party Nap with Big Night’s Katherine Lewin

0:28This episode is brought to you by Resi and American Express. My two past lives in retail, specifically merchandising, and then an editorial specifically focused on restaurants. The marriage of those two experiences is definitely what led me here. Like, what happens when you sell food products next to home products? And why don't I see that illustrated very often? This is Taste. I'm your host, Eliza Barbanel.

0:59Catherine Lewin is the founder of Big Night, an entertaining focused home goods store with two locations here in New York City. She's also the author of Big Night the Cookbook, a truly excellent new back pocket hosting companion with recipes, menu ideas and more. It's so fun to have Catherine on the show to talk about summer cooking, entertaining as an introvert and more.

1:29Catherine Lewin, this is Taste. Thank you for coming on the podcast. Thanks for having me. Thank you for schlepping through hot summer New York into our air conditioning, I guess I should say. I do feel like I swam here a little bit. Yeah. And I'm happy to be here in the air conditioning. I was like in a mouth, I would say, is how it felt to be on the subway. Yes, that's a perfect descriptor. So I'm so glad that I'm catching you. I feel like you're midway through the book tour. Is that right? I don't time and space. I don't have a great grasp on what the book came out a couple weeks ago. We just wrapped up a series of great events in New York and we're headed out on the road soon.

2:07I'm going to LA next week. I want to hear a little bit about what it's like for you to be planning the Big Night book tour because Big Night itself is all about gathering and bringing people together. I feel like there's maybe a little bit more I don't want to say pressure but like expectation that it's going to be a party. What have the events been like so far? Wow, we're just diving into like my work therapy session. I appreciate it. Yeah, you're welcome. Yeah, let's just cut right to it. It's true. I mean, Big Night is my shop that is all about hosting. And so when we do our own events for the store, I already feel a good pressure, but a pressure to really host people and make people feel included and invited and welcome and all the things that I hope they already feel when they just walk into the store as shoppers.

2:52But for the book, especially because it is a hosting book, it's a guide to hosting with recipes. You know, I've just been thinking about how do we bring to life that energy in a book tour format? How do we create opportunities to actually have real connections with people who want to talk about dinner parties and hosting? It has felt like a little bit of extra pressure, but also the opportunity to go to a place like L.A., which I'm actually originally from L.A., but we've never done anything Big Night related there. It's super exciting. And I'm just excited to connect with people there. Yeah, I'm from L.A.

3:30as well, actually. Where are your L.A. events going to be? We are taking over the Ghia house and doing one event with now serving and then another smaller seated dinner. I love all of those things. Now Serving is my favorite bookstore in L.A. They are incredible. I guess to take a step back, can you tell me a little bit about the idea to start Big Night? Where did that come from and how has it evolved as the business has grown? The idea for Big Night came to me during peak pandemic lockdown, in the moment when we were all cooking more than ever. And I was seeing like on my Instagram feed people in my life or celebrities, like people who I had never associated with spending a lot of time in the kitchen.

4:15I was seeing people in the kitchen more than ever and really cooking. I was cooking elaborate meals. Other people were people were growing scallions and making bread and all of the project cooking. And it occurred to me that we were cooking more than ever, but we were not sharing those meals. We couldn't gather. I mean, if you were lucky, you had your pandemic pod, maybe a roommate, a partner. But for all of the cooking we were doing, we certainly weren't having dinner parties. And I started thinking about how that was going to feel like one of those sparkly experiences that people were going to be excited to do again once it was safe enough to do so.

4:55That's really smart. And I think it's interesting that you were thinking about it in this moment, knowing that we would get to that place, but like not quite being there. Totally. I mean, that was like holidays of 2020. And that's why it was just an idea. I mean, we had no idea at that point how long lockdown was going to last for. But it kind of lodged itself like in the back of my brain, this idea about a dinner party shop. And of course, I started thinking and sort of fantasizing about what would be in that. And the original idea was to empower and inspire people to host and to gather at home.

5:29and I think I just had a lot of fun like in that peak pandemic moment like fantasizing about like well what would be there and for me I wanted a place where people really felt like they could get everything all in one place so fancy cheeses and also cheese plates and cheese knives and napkins you know a really special ingredient to like wake up your takeout but also glassware that would impress somebody when they walked in and then eventually you opened the West Village store also right and that one has wine um so we opened greenpoint in august of 2021 and then we followed it up with the west village store in may of 2023 so it was about a year and a half in between um unfortunately here's a fun fact in new york you cannot sell alcohol if you also sell food products over any alcohol like you can't sell an alcohol product over like something like 5.5 ABV.

6:27Someone will fact check me. But anyway, it's really interesting. People who own shops like mine often sort of like, you know, ring their fists being like, I wish that we could, but we cannot. But maybe a future big night in a future place might. Yeah, I think maybe I'm just thinking about the non-alcoholic selection that you have there. Yes. Because I as a New Yorker, I should know better than to say that because I had the experience of like going to Trader Joe's and then going to the separate Trader Joe's wine shop that's next door. You've got it. Technically different. Yes. Yes. And I think it's actually sort of a fateful thing that because we can't sell alcoholic beverages, we have really dived deep into N.A.

7:09beverages. And especially in a moment when like people really want to see a depth and a breadth of assortment there and people are really hungry for and excited for options that make them feel like they're having a big night, even if they're not drinking. So, yes, we do have a robust N.A. selection of both shops. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And I wanted to talk to you a little bit about your own personal background as well. I know that before you were running the Big Night empire, so to speak, you were doing more editorial kind of things, brand things at The Infatuation and J.Crew. And I'm curious about how you think that background informs your approach towards retail.

7:44I think that never in a million years would I have put it together at the time. but my two past lives in retail, specifically merchandising, and then an editorial specifically focused on restaurants. The marriage of those two experiences is definitely what led me here. In that when I started kind of marinating on this idea of a dinner party shop, I was also really interested in the merchandising element. Like what happens when you sell food products next to home products? And why don't I see that illustrated very often? I was sort of like fascinated by that mashup of the two categories and how they would sell.

8:21And if I could explain to people why they were together and how I envisioned them using these things at home. And so sort of like the retail nerdiness like started to really take center stage there. And then so much of what I think we do at Big Night is telling the stories of these products, why they're special, who are the makers, how are they made, how did we discover these things. And so I think and I hope that Big Night's ability to really highlight sort of why these products are on the shelves, why we love them, is also a key part of what we do. So it's like sort of this retail and editorial storytelling marriage that has made Big Night.

9:00Yeah, I think it makes a lot of sense. And also in terms of the events that are happening in this space, I think I've seen like a cookbook launch happen at Big Night before. Like it kind of lends itself to this expansive world of what it means to be gathering around food. Exactly. So I feel like you must have a good bird's eye view of how people feel about entertaining just by what people are buying in the shops or maybe like what kind of questions they're asking. What's happening? What are you noticing? I wish that I could just like sit on the phone and have a 1-800 dinner party line just to talk to people about how they're hosting at home because.

9:35I love that. OK, should we start a podcast? Yes. Yes. Fabulous. Done. because our customers say the most interesting things and ask the most interesting questions and they were really the inspiration behind me wanting to write this cookbook is just really actually getting a chance to connect with people who want to host and who want to gather and who might have amazing traditions of doing so but maybe they're caught up on one little thing or they've been hosting for years and years but they haven't updated their dining room and they're like, help me make this feel like I'm entertaining in the modern world or somebody who's never hosted before who's like, I don't even know how to really plate a cheese plate.

10:17Like, can we start there? And I think I've been really inspired by the spectrum of those experiences and questions that come into the store and really what I've hoped to speak to in the book as well. Yeah, I see that a lot. And I guess you're saying a little bit that this book is coming out of the experience of talking to customers. But I am curious to hear about when did you first start thinking about the idea of making a Big Night book and what kind of space did you want that to fill in the market? So as I said, storytelling was sort of front and center with Big Night since the very beginning.

10:51I can remember spending way too many hours, even before we opened, writing copious product signage because I was obsessed with this idea of like every product getting its own special spotlight to shine in on the shelves. And if you've been to Big Night Greenpoint, you know it's 240 square feet and there is literally not enough space for all the signs. And so looking back, I was kind of like bumping up against the boundaries of how much space I could really get to tell these stories. And so I think that was sort of like the first feeling of, wow, there's a lot to say on this topic. There's a lot of brands and people to spotlight.

11:25There's a lot of stories that customers bring in that I want to sort of like tell on the page. And that was sort of just like rolling around in my head a little bit. But at the same time, you know, I am not a professionally trained chef. I'm a home cook and somebody who thinks a lot about like accessible ways to host at home. And so it was sort of this feeling of, you know, I had I had this idea for a hosting book in my head, but I didn't quite know how that was going to come to be. And, you know, that was rattling around. And then my editor actually sent me a cold email and said, I don't know if you know this, but your story is a book.

12:01And I feel very strongly about this. And we went out to lunch and we talked. And I think having somebody else sort of like vocalize some of the things I had been thinking, you know, really emphatically about how the story could be a book kind of nudged me in that direction. Yeah, I think having external support or validation, whatever word you want to use, is helpful because a book is a big endeavor. And I think also this idea of a hosting book is really interesting. I think when someone listens to that, maybe they think of Martha as a great classic example. And I love Martha, but I would say like she would have never made this book that you've made.

12:38Thank you. I mean, it's funny. Entertaining is a category of cookbook. but as you say like no one has done the entertaining book in that way as well as they did since Ina and Martha like like that sort of like peak entertaining book moment was them and that was another piece of the puzzle is what is an entertaining book what is what is a hosting book and how can I actually like bring and add value to that space in books because there's a lot of cookbooks out in the world and many of them are incredible. And I wanted to make sure that if I was going to write something that I really knew what problems I was addressing, how could I help make things feel easier for people?

13:26How was I going to bring something to market that really felt like differentiated from what else there is out there on hosting? Right. So let's get into that. I want to talk about some of the things that you think make this a distinctly big night hosting book. One of the things that struck me when I was reading it was this idea of the social nap. Can you tell someone what the benefits of the social, what is a social nap and why is it so awesome? Yeah, you're right. Martha would never have talked about this. Martha would never social nap. No, that's when I read it and I was like, oh, okay, Catherine is getting serious about how to entertain when you aren't necessarily somebody who would normally be entertaining.

14:01Yeah, and that's such an example of a nitty gritty detail that people don't talk about enough. How do you actually host? Let's get into the more mundane or silly things. So the emotional toll. Yes. So something I mentioned in the book is I am definitely an introvert, an introvert who loves being around people, but an introvert. And I think there's a lot of social pressure when you host a dinner party, especially in New York. Dinner parties go long. People like to hang. And, you know, you're looking at like five, six hours of people in your space. And that is lovely. But also sometimes introverts out there need a moment to recharge.

14:36and I am famous in my friend group for disappearing from the party for about 10 minutes where I will go lay down in my room with all the lights off and just lay horizontally and take a beat and then you know sometimes someone will come find me and inevitably pull me back to the party but otherwise I just that 10 minutes allows me to just walk back in and have the energy that I need and I like that so much because I think a lot of people myself included have the experience of going into a bathroom and locking the door and just taking a breath from talking to people. A hundred percent. Like normalize a social nap and also lots of other moments of like, quote unquote, imperfection that might happen throughout a dinner party because we're humans and, you know, dinner parties aren't some like theatrical show that we have to put on.

15:25You know, in fact, I think dinner parties are more special when they're really a reflection of who somebody is. And so if you're somebody who wants a social nap, then go for it. So I want to talk about how you approached recipe development for the book also. I love this idea of these potluck special guest contributions that are throughout it. Who are those contributors and how did you think about that component for the book? It was really important to me to bring in some other perspectives into the Big Night book because so many different people have had a part in shaping what Big Night is. And that is really how I landed on the contributors that I did, thinking about people who have really had an impact on the store and wanting them to have a moment to get to share themselves with our audience as well.

16:12So one of those people is Roya Shariat. She and I met because she was a customer at the shop and I met her. And by the second meeting, we were good enough friends that she was like, oh, by the way, I'm writing a cookbook. with my mom about all of our Iranian recipes that I grew up eating. And I was so excited about this. And then I got to sort of like know her through learning about her cookbook and how it was going. And so obviously when my cookbook rolled around, I was so excited to ask her, will you play a part of this? In the same way that really she was the first friend that I got to make truly through the store.

16:53I don't know how we would have met otherwise. And that was such a special experience. Yeah, I would imagine that there must be a lot of people in your life that you've met through the store by this point. Yeah, it's really special. People that, you know, maybe when I first met them, they were Greenpoint shoppers. Now they've moved to the city, and they're West Village shoppers, people who, you know, have only gotten the chance to shop with us online, but, like, now we have these great, you know, digital relationships with them. people who came in once but live somewhere else and now like to keep up with us on Instagram like I I feel so lucky that the store makes people feel like they are part of it because they are definitely um I want to talk also about entertaining trends because I feel like we're in this interesting era where tin fish has been talked about for a while certainly the maximalist the cheese board with the salami river.

17:50It's a thing that's been floating around. And obviously it's summertime and I think a lot of people just want to be gathering in general. So I'm curious, like what are your personal snack spread kind of like beginning of the party go-tos right now? I'm so hot in this moment that I'm thinking about things that are just like you can casually eat while the AC is blasting at you. I'm forever and ever a dip person. Like when it comes to appetizers in particular, I'm like, just give the people what they want. Like we don't have to be fancy here. Like a really incredible homemade ranch dressing with, you know, crunchy, cold veg that you serve over ice because it's that hot and you want the veg to stay cool.

18:35I love serving over ice also. My dream is to have cherries on ice this summer. I think we can make that dream happen. I mean, it's very, very achievable. As I was just saying, there's ice in the freezer here where we're recording. So I could just get some cherries. But there's something about that that feels so elegant and special. I think that restaurants are really good at this, of like thinking of special ways to bring some extra magic to something that you might not think of as needing extra magic. Like a bowl of cherries. Well, that's delicious and lush and luxurious. But what if it's a bowl of ice with your cherries, like just sprinkled, dotting it?

19:13You know, it's just like a beautiful it's a beautiful moment. And I think I find myself throughout this book wanting to sort of capture some of that restaurant magic where something comes to the table and you're just like, what is that? Like the first time I had a Sunday at Hillstone, which Hillstone fans unite. Unite. Unite. I love Hillstone. I've never had the Sunday. OK, well. I think that this is true of all locations, but when the sundae comes to your table, your hot fudge comes in a gravy boat. And that gravy boat, like this silver gravy boat filled to the top with chocolate fudge, really lodged itself in my brain.

19:49And I even mention in the book, like, think about vessels that people wouldn't expect you to put your hot fudge in and put it in that. Like, that's a little moment of magic that just, like, surprises and delights. And, you know, like, you could put your Hershey's hot fudge in that gravy boat. But like people are going to think about the grapevine, not the fudge in that moment. So I'm always looking for those little like let's just take this up a notch moments. Yeah, I love that. And I want to talk about how drinks fit into the book as well, because I saw that you had a recipe for a snap pea martini, which to me is the ultimate version of taking it up a notch.

20:23I love that idea. And I'm curious about how you wanted to include drinks, because I feel like drinks are really a personal thing for people. They are such a personal thing for people. And I'm really excited about the drink recipes throughout the book and I'm excited for people to try them. The snap and cucumber martini being one of them. I have a lot of strong opinions about bartending at your own party. First of all, I think that if you're going to make cocktails, like stick to one wowie cocktail and then you're not bartending again for the rest of the night. Like, you know, dinner parties are not like open bars at a wedding where you're like ordering, you know, anything you want.

20:57I think there is something really communal about people trying to drink for the first time. I'm like, OK, snap pea infused gin. Like, what's that going to be like? That being said, I also have really strong opinions that, you know, a martini, one that is not batched, is a uniquely personal experience, as you say. And I actually believe that martinis, like the classic martini, is not a dinner party drink because a martini, a classic martini, gin or vodka should be exactly how you like it. It should not be batched. It should not, you know, be hastily made. Like that's a gift you can give yourself or a guest.

21:32And so I actually have a whole section in the book about, you know, if you're going to make a martini for a guest. Here's how you find out exactly what they want. And here's how you communicate exactly what you want if you are the guest. And then, you know, on the other side of the spectrum, we also have some great cocktails that do make sense to make in large quantities. Like there's this really special Paloma recipe in the book that I'm really excited about. That's like an easier way to serve a lot of people all at once. But I will die on this hill. A classic martini should be made one of one.

22:03Exactly how you like it. Yeah, I would say I don't really do drinks at my parties when I'm having people over at all. I have people bring wine or maybe I'll do a spritz or something. Or if someone else wants to bartend, like that's on them. But to me, that's kind of too much to take on. But I did want to mention I was at my friend Rose's party last weekend and she did something that I'd never seen before that I thought was really cute, which is she had a just printer paper up on the wall with a diagram of a spritz, but it was life size. So you could hold your glass up to the diagram and get the ratios.

22:35That's just right. That's amazing. I want to see the life size diagram. One, two, I love what she's doing. And I talk about this in the book, which is like, give people the tools to make their own perfect drink. That's like the best, even better than maybe being the bartender of your party. The better thing to do is set them up with the ingredients, give them a recipe or a diagram and say like, go wild, hit the spritz bar, hit the, not the martini bar, hit the spritz bar, hit the highball bar. And here's, here are my perfect measurements for the, for this drink and like go at it. And not only does that take the pressure off of you, so you're not bartending.

23:16it also gives people a moment to like hang out at the spritz bar and like oh how are you making yours and like what's going on yours and it's like this instant moment of experiencing something together and gives people sort of like an icebreaker off the bat yeah I totally agree with that something that I like to do this would be later in the night around dessert is have my guests whipped cream by hand for the dessert and there's something unifying about it takes longer than you think. It's harder than you think. Everyone's kind of skeptical that it's going to happen. And then when it does work, everyone feels really accomplished.

23:48It's maybe like the kindergarten school of entertaining, but I feel like if everyone has a communal task, they're already united. I love that. I love that. And I love the sort of like analog nature of just doing it by hand. And that is like such a magical moment when you're like, this is liquid. It's never going to become. And then it does. And then it feels like everyone had a part in that dessert being as amazing as it is. Exactly. And if you keep the bowl in the freezer, that's the way that I do it it helps a little bit as well so you also have suggestions for how to pair together recipes and have different kinds of quote-unquote big nights so I'm curious if you have any favorite big nights in the book or any big nights you'd want to shout out as being especially good for summer yeah so that was one of my favorite parts of making this book was thinking about all the different pieces of a dinner party menu and how they fit together one of the real feelings I felt in hosting before I made this book is there are obviously so many wonderful recipes for every kind of dinner party on the internet but it's it's kind of hard to figure out how to pair those dishes together to create a full experience and I wanted to give people the tools to easily discern like okay if I'm making this main I have like 10 ideas for what I could serve with because I actually think sides everything besides the main is like actually the trickiest thing you know especially because you're often spending so much time on this like you know whether it's a pasta or this you know a meat that you've been cooking all day you get to the sides and you're like like what am I gonna put with that so I wanted to give people the keys to make that feel easier so yes with almost every single recipe you will find in the book some pairing suggestions but then on top of that, there are 12 bigger nights throughout the book.

25:35And these are like fully executed dinner parties for people to get inspired by ranging from your best friend's birthday dinner to, you know, there's a Thanksgiving bigger night, a Friendsgiving bigger night, where I've put together full on menus, which was really fun. And my hope is that even if someone doesn't cook a recipe A to Z, excuse me, a menu A to Z, that they'll sort of be inspired to go find their own perfect menus within the book. Yeah, I think looking at the balance of starch and protein and vegetable is helpful. It's sometimes like when you don't want to cook a full recipe exactly how it exists online, I still go to look at it just so I get a sense of like, this is the universe that this should be existing in.

26:21The same way. And also you want to think about like your time and you don't want to be spending, you know, a project cooking amount of time on every single thing on the table. Like some things just need to be easy wins. So that's another piece that I thought about when thinking about the pairings is like, all right, if someone has spent forever on this dish, how do we find something that's like going to be a little bit easier for them on the other side? Yeah. Okay. Cause I'm nosy. I have to ask what your own approach to birthdays is. Do you throw yourself a big night birthday? I like to have a home moment for my birthdays and an out moment for my birthdays.

26:52I'm a really big fan of starting the night at home and then going out. I think it's something that we've been doing for New Year's Eve the past couple of years to great success, which is like, let's all start with a very communal moment at home, something really festive where we're all drinking champagne. I'm really pushing a fondue campaign for all New Year's Eve celebrations. Fondue and champagne. It's a perfect New Year's Eve. I love fondue. And then we go out. And I feel this the way about my birthday like do i want to be cooking an entire meal on my birthday maybe not every year but i do love to start at home because i really do feel like it just like sets everyone up to feel super connected for the night and then we can head out um into the sunset later on and on the fondue front do you own a fondue set no okay how do you do fondue without the set i'm so glad you asked um you've been waiting yes i've been waiting for this the fondue needs its moment um There's a recipe in the book called The Future is Fondue, and it is a go-to, easy, no-fail way to make fondue, and you don't need a fondue set.