435: René Redzepi

28:21Yeah. Sweating payroll. Rene, you sweat payroll. Yeah. You're just trying to figure it out month by month. And so you need the positive moments and interactions for you to tell yourself, keep going, keep believing in this. Were you really stressed out at the time when you were getting 10 covers a night? Yeah, I was, but not as much as when the success came. Interesting. When the success came, it was like so stressful. I mean, the first night of the success, which can be boiled down to the moment that we won number one on the world's 50 best list for the first time. We had 100 ,000 requests for tables in 24 hours or so.

29:00That broke the internet in Denmark. I had to. And you have to imagine these are requests. So tables of two, tables of four, tables of six. It could have been half a million or a million people altogether that wanted tables in just 24 hours. It was so stressful. Suddenly we're busy. We had to hire more people, learning how to manage, learning how to deal with a big team. The pressures of suddenly everyone wants something from you. That made me very stressed. All the while trying to maintain a semblance of consistency with your cuisine. Yeah. I was very focused on that though. Okay. I feel like I never really lost track on that.

29:36We were very good at, in that period, one thing we did well in that period was actually build out the whole food department. That's when the test kitchen was in full play. We started the fermentation lab in that period as well, which at the time was, you know, groundbreaking and what the resources we poured into that over the years have really been incredible for us um and so on and so so forth we you know we had a foraging division where there was full-time foragers and really spent a lot of time on on being specialized in the things that we're good at building under real corporation yeah vertically integrated except for the business corporation part of it.

30:17We never really fully understood that. And we never truly built that out in a way that, and perhaps it just isn't possible to do it in that way. Perhaps this change we're going through is what's necessary for you to actually become an organization within the food space that has a financial foundation that can support everyone and the creativity for a lifetime. You know, that's the hard one to crack. That's still, it sounds like that's still in development. Yes, of course it is. I mean, actually getting a footing, you had a pandemic wipe you clean. I mean, that must have been difficult. And pandemic was horrible.

30:56Yeah. Horrible. I mean, I maxed out my house twice to pay bills during the pandemic. Luckily, the houses kept going up in that period. I don't know if it was the same in America. Oh, yeah. You could take more money out of your house. Yeah. I did that twice during the pandemic. This is like 2021. This is recently. This is, I mean, everyone is assuming the opposite with you, Rene. You're world famous. You have a long list. Like, you don't sound like you're a wealthy guy. I tell my kids this all the time. You know, being wealthy, being rich and being wealthy are two different things. Right. I'm not rich in money.

31:30I'm wealthy in many things. In that sense, I'm quite happy. But financially, I'm doing fine. I have a house. Me and my wife, we have two bikes. We don't own a car. We get to travel. We have freedom. We can do what we want. We live in Copenhagen. We swim in the ocean every day. It's a better life. I love to hear that, Rene. Thank you for being candid about that. I think that's important to get down. Cookbook future. What can we say? Love your books. You published with Leah Ronan at Artisan. Huge fan of her work and what they're doing at Artisan. Talk about these books coming out. We have one book coming out.

32:08So the fermentation book that we did was incredible. The hand. Yeah, the hand. We have the next hand coming, which is not necessarily on fermentation, but it's about all the condiments that we use at the restaurant. Yes. Whether it being fruit leathers, vinaigrettes, sauces, pickles, preservations, all the stuff that surrounds the meal that we have hundreds of items of. That's coming. Oh my gosh, the chefs are so stoked about this. Wow. Yeah. Well, we'll have you back to talk about that. Rene, before we get to the taste check, I want to know, Omnivore, season two, please tell me that you've got a board of between 10 and 100 more episodes.

32:57I really hope you can bring it back for more episodes. It's just a tremendous show on Apple TV+. I can tell you we have more than 100 different items that we see fantastic episodes. Ultimately, it's going to depend on if people watch it. If people watch it, Apple TV Plus might say, let's do it again. You guys heard that. You have Apple TV Plus. Many of you do. Go and watch the show. It's really, really, really great. I mean it. We get a lot of pitches for a lot of TV shows on the show. Rene, it's a deeply important show. And the way it's presented is new for food for me. And I cannot recommend it enough.

33:36Wow. Thank you so much, man. On This Is Taste, we ask guests about the discerning taste. So to close this interview, Rene, here's a little rapid fire, fast and furious. Okay. Taste check. Are you ready? I'm so ready. The best fruit. The first thing that came to mind was peach, but I've just had one from the market. Yeah, it's fine. They're actually pretty good here in New York. The worst vegetable. Brussels sprouts. Interesting. Do you ever put them on the menu at Noma? Oh, yeah. I mean, I love them today, but I love all vegetables today, except for Brussels sprouts when I was a kid. Oh, yeah.

34:05They were bad when you were a kid. They've gotten better. The best dessert? Creme Broly. Your favorite New York City restaurant? Momofuku Sandbar 2005 and WD50 2005. Those two restaurants changed the world. It cannot be understated. I agree fully. They changed the world. R.I.P. Both of them. R.I.P. Somme. It's just a travesty that that restaurant is not located where it used to be located. Well said. Your favorite European restaurant? Echebari in the Basque Country. They still do the steak for dessert there? They still do the steak. And I mean, listen, when we talk about steak, everyone that's listening have to think of a dairy cow that's 11 years old, that's been roaming the foothills of this, you know, the soft bass countryside, eating wild grasses mostly.

34:54And then at the end of their life, it becomes steak. It is the best meat you can eat. It's a long waiting list as well to get into that place. Favorite American fast food chain? Honestly, I'm not going to sound like I'm a snob or anything, but I have no clue. It's not a snob. You just have no clue. I have no clue. I mean, I know everyone loves Chick-fil-A. Maybe it's Shake Shack. Fair enough. If I were to choose anything, it's Shake Shack because when we were in Kyoto doing a pop-up, there was a Shake Shack nearby. It's nice for staff to get Shake Shack once in a while. Few more. Your favorite cookbook of all time.

35:29That is the first El Bully cookbook. which was extraordinary. And then it is also, it's not a cookbook, but it influenced me greatly. Stalking the Wild Asparagus by Ewell Gibbons. I don't know that one. That's new to me. Amazing. It's a foraging book. I need to check that out. A cuisine you would like to learn more about? Several. Indian would probably number one. And then, I mean, when I say Chinese food, you know, it's like a continent. Exactly. So those two, I would really like to understand more of. Your favorite sandwich? Reuben. Reuben. Tell me, take me through the idea of Reuben for you, René.

36:10I mean, for me, it's the breast. What do you call that in English? So you call it pastrami, but, you know, it is from the breast part of the cow. Yeah, yeah. That with lots of horseradish. Oh, I like that twist. Lots and lots of horseradish. The bread choice? I would prefer rye Love that Rene Redzepi What a pleasure Thank you so much for joining This is Taste

36:45Eliza we're back with three things What is your first thing? My first thing is very simple Key lime pie slushie Oh my gosh That sounds like a sonic choice It was not a sonic choice but I do see where that could be. It was a choice at Edith's sandwich shop in Brooklyn. They're doing a collab with Kate's Key Lime Pie right now, which is a really great Brooklyn-based kind of like independent pie baker. I did a collab pie with her last summer for Cake Zine. I'm a big fan of her pies. And so when I saw that they were doing this slushie, I just compelled myself to go to Williamsburg on a Saturday morning, which is not something I would normally do, and wait in the bagel line.

37:21And I got a really nice bagel sandwich and the slushie was really just kind of creamy and delicious. and I don't think it has like pie crust in it. I think it's mostly the key lime filling, but I would definitely recommend it. I think it's available for the foreseeable future in the summer. That sounds incredible. How much ice is packed into it? I mean, I didn't see how it was made. So it was very icy, which is what I wanted because it's so hot here in the city. But I would say it was surprisingly creamy. So even if there is a lot of ice as the core of it, it doesn't read as watery. It doesn't.

37:52That's what my question is because balancing that creaminess with the acidity and the balance of the lime and then getting the icy nature of it. Not an easy feat. Yeah, and Edith's does a coffee slushie on their menu most of the time. So I think that maybe they're expanding their slushie universe, which is exciting news. I could go for a good slushie right now. Yeah. Oh my gosh. What's your first thing? Eliza, I finally made it to Kesa. Oh, what did you think? I am so down with this place. We had spoken about it on our previous three things. to remind everyone it's the new restaurant from the C as in Charlie Crew.

38:27It is a Korean restaurant that has a real identity. Even in these modern times, I think we're looking back with Korean food. There's a lot of imagery. There's a lot of aesthetic choices that tip back to the 70s in this restaurant. And wow, I was super impressed. So I was there last week on one of the hottest days of the year and the AC was out. and it's funny I walk in and it's like it's hot in here but then I see the format which is it's 32 bucks and you get a central protein and a bunch of panchan and it's kind of the style is called bekbang which is like shared plates and it has this long history in Korea around the style and there's a little bit of a tie to cab drivers in these style restaurants I think that's like a tidy narrative but I think there's actually you can find it in all parts of Korean and it's not just for cab drivers.

39:21That's not the point. But I walk in, I see these dishes and I kind of forget that it's like 85 degrees in there. And I had written somebody who works for the team the next day and they were like really apologetic about not having AC. And literally I was like, I had no idea. That's how good this place is right now. Wow. So what protein did you get? We actually ordered all four. We had a pretty big group. So the cool thing is that there's four proteins and then there's um like eight to ten uh panchan um bulgogi jayuk bokum which is a sauteed pork there's a bibimbap and onjiyuk bokum which is the stir fried squid so there's like dishes for everyone and i i thought they all i like the jayuk bokum probably the best the pork dish um but for me it was the side dishes that were the star yeah um did you have the raw shrimp when you were there i did have the raw shrimp i had the like little cute like rice cake Like hot dogs, steers, all of those.

40:19I ordered the squid as my protein when I was there, but my server told me that like the pork is the most popular one and that there's like a meme in Korea that like men eat spicy pork. I think it's like probably a joke that doesn't translate, but it made me feel like I needed to go back and try that one. Yeah, spicy pork. They're all really good. What a value. $32. And you can get refills for your panchon. So you can actually get more omelet or I love the sweet potato that's kind of sautéed in in Michel or some kind of sweet syrup. There's an egg omelet that I really liked. And it's it's no reservation, which is the trick.

40:54So you got to get there a little early. I was speaking with one of the owners and I just love this place. I'm going to link to the show notes. Go there. You got to show up around four, four thirty. There's usually a line. But honestly, if you get there like at the end of service, like any place in New York, we're tending to dine earlier. So if you can like be one of those late comers, I think you'll have great luck there. Yeah. I also just want to say that I think that late summer is a really good time to walk into more like trendy restaurants in New York when less people are in town, especially if there's a holiday or something going on.

41:22Like you can probably get a seat. Absolutely. I just wrote about that in our newsletter about that idea of like summers in New York. I agree with you fully. I remember I walked into Hearth one time on a summer 4th of July weekend, and it was like half full. And I had like the most incredible meal that felt like the servers were working for me and only meals like a private meal. And again, you can get like those, like you say, these very hot tables are all available in August and support restaurants in August, right? This is one where restaurants go to die. Not here, not now. Not here right now.

41:53Let's hope that. I mean, this is this is like we need to support restaurants throughout these tough summer months because it's tough to get there to get the numbers. Yeah, definitely. What's your next one? My next one is a pop up as I love to go to pop ups. I went to a really good one at Little Egg last weekend where my cake scene co-founder Tanya Bush is the pastry chef. She was doing a collab with Nico Villaseñor, who was cooking most recently at Fri Day in Fort Greene and Four Horsemen before that. And they were doing this very summery menu. And Tanya has just been obsessed with Nico's cooking for a long time.

42:25I think she met him when he was cooking at Fraday, and she would just be there all of the time. And I really trust Tanya's taste because she is discerning. So I went in just knowing it was going to be great. And I had so much fun. Nico did some really cool kind of European summer vibe dishes. He did salt and vinegar fried wax beans served over aioli. You could kind of swipe it into almost like a French fry or like a fried fish even. But with the beans instead, there's a really good grilled pork collar. And Tanya's desserts were really special. She did like a fig leaf semifredo that was really good.

42:58I think fig leaf is kind of a trendy dessert flavor right now. Absolutely. I agree with you. I've seen it. And I think I was at Superiorty Burger and they had a fig leaf gelato in the menu. And she also is trying out a dessert that I'm hoping is going to make it permanently into little egg, which is kind of a take on an affogato. It has homemade amaro and then a tahini ice cream that it's poured over. I love any kind of saucy ice cream situation and I thought that was really special it was also quite hot when we were there but it was the food that made it worthwhile so yo I gotta get to little egg and I feel like these pop-ups are very very a big part of the the vibe of the restaurant these days yeah you know they are a daytime restaurant so the only time they're open for dinner is when they're doing a pop-up so this was a two-night dinner pop-up and I think over the summer maybe there'll be a couple more it's always kind of fun to get to go somewhere after dark so to speak and i think nico is really a star i'm not sure where he's cooking next but i would definitely link his instagram in the show notes and just kind of see wherever he's going yeah remember that name and and i had a yoli yesterday i was at uh lola pizzeria in kingston and i had artichokes with a really nice yoli and i'm like i don't know why i don't think about mayonnaise in the summertime But it goes on these grilled fish, grilled octopus, grilled artichokes.

44:12I love it. I feel like a mayonnaise love, especially in the summertime. I feel like good mayo with anything is kind of fun. It's totally fun. What's your second thing? My friends came up for Fourth of July from Philly, and they brought a box of pastries from Mighty Bread Company in Philadelphia and South Philly. Wow, I'm like blown away by this bakery. Have you heard of this Mighty Bread Company? I feel like I've seen them on Instagram, perhaps. Yeah. Well, they're really, really cool. They're known for their naturally leavened sourdoughs, and they have like four or five available every day. They started as a pop-up and then a window and then a proper bakery.

44:50Coconut oak cookies, carrot ginger muffins. I really like the way they're doing the pastry box. It's not the standard lamination, though they do that as well. I'm not here to talk about any of that stuff. I'm here to talk about the cherry pie. Oh, I love a cherry pie. What kind of was it a slice of pie? Was it hand pie? Well, it was a full lattice pie. It was not a crumble, but a lattice. And I come from Michigan. We are known for our cherry pies. We have like this whole thing in the northern parts during the August cherry season or actually it's more July, but it's something around there. I have to say I'm sorry, Michigan.

45:24I'm sorry, Washington State, too. You guys have some great cherry pies. I've never had a better cherry pie in my life. The way that the cherries were first oversized, which is cool. they didn't shrink down it wasn't like also that like kind of jello-y gel you know gloopy filling there was like real separation between the fruit and the sauce and for whatever reason the acidity sweetness tartness balance perfect love this pie i'm very jealous of this pie yeah i know i'm i'm jealous that my friends get to have it all the time in philly and i'm like just had i just had one pie and that's it one and done but maybe maybe we'll head down to philly i think we're due for a road trip you and i and clayton hitting the road yeah we've recovered from our wisconsin road trip so we can rent it back wisconsin we went to vegas man i know but we were we were driving all around the state of wisconsin you're right i think we covered every corner yeah we covered many parts of wisconsin uh what is your next one my last one is that i went to mag culture live yesterday do you know about this event completely and i was wondering if you were there i was watching it on instagram a few people were posting from it and tell me about it's great yeah so mag culture is a london-based magazine shop they have a really great selection they do sell cake scene among every other good title and they for the past couple years have been doing a day of kind of magazine talks here in new york um i've been i went to the one three years ago um last year i was in where was i oh i was in paris for a cake scene event but tanya actually came back and spoke at it last year and this year i just stopped in to listen to everyone speaking.

47:00And they have a ton of great like magazine editors there from all different kinds of walks of life. So they have folks from Airmail. They do a whole indie session, which is cool, where I saw the folks from Byline speak. Also this magazine called It's Freezing in LA, which is a climate magazine that I think is just really cool in terms of the interdisciplinary ways they talk about climate. Obviously, like the realities of this moment that we're in, which is pretty hot, but then some kind of exciting and interesting climate stories as well. And then I did buy a lot of magazines in the shop there as well.

47:32And they do this every year. And I think obviously this one just happened. But if you are interested in magazines, either tuning in online or coming by if you're in New York is a really cool way to kind of meet other magazine folks, get to look at things in person that maybe you've only seen on Instagram. Very cool. I love to stop by the Mag Culture shop in London. Do you think they'll have a New York shop at some point? Yeah. So they did a pop up here in New York. I think it's closing this week because they're flying back to London, but it was running for the past couple of weeks. Maybe they'll come back again.

48:00And certainly if you're in London, I think this is a really special shop. It almost reminds me of Casa Magazines in some way. I mean, it's it's much more like newer and, you know, isn't also a bodega in the way that Casa Magazines is like they're truly just a magazine stand. But I think the way that they are kind of embedded in the zine community in London reminds me of the way that Casa is kind of held up as the heart of indie magazines here in New York. And it's certainly fun to just stop by and pick up something new. I love it. Have you been to the new airmail newsstand? No, but I have a note to go because when I was hearing them talk yesterday, they were mentioning this newsstand that they have.

48:37I think it's on Houston. Yeah, it's a really cool place. Yeah, it's downtown. It's really worth checking out. Yeah, and they sell like not just magazines, but products they've written about in the publication, things like that. They were saying that it's actually a good way for them to pick up new subscribers is that they have foot traffic in this part of downtown. And so people just see the store and come in and then decide to subscribe to the new site. Oh, yeah. I'm sure if you buy something, they give a discount and they can sign up at the register. It all makes sense for these subscription based media companies to have like a offline or physical store.

49:07Yeah. Something else that I learned yesterday that the airmail folks said is that there is nothing in the definition of a magazine that says it has to be in print, which I thought was interesting because I think we all think of magazines as a print object. But they're obviously an email only. They've never made a print product for this magazine, although a lot of Vanity Fair folks are a part of it. Well, in fact, the publication that you and I co-edited, we call it a magazine in our About section. And I agree. I think of Taste as an online food culture magazine. I use that word like from day one in 2017 and fully agree that a magazine does not have to have physical print.

49:43It's more of like the style of the journalism, the style of the writing. I love that you bring that up. Yeah. So it was super interesting. Let me ask you one thing. A taste physical store. What do you think about that? Like a pop-up shop? Could be started as a pop-up. Sure. Could be physical. Could be like more permanent. But I guess it would probably have to start as a pop-up. What would you want to see in it? I mean, I feel like the obvious answer is products that we've written about in the magazine cookbook section, magazine section would be fun. Yeah. It would be fun if there could be a little cafe in the front where we could do recipes.

50:20The recipes that Zola makes for her column would be really fun to have a little pastry case. I'm into it. I feel like the strategist did a holiday pop-up in New York a couple years ago, and I'm not sure if it ever turned into a full store for them. Yeah. Obviously, we all know how difficult it is to run a physical space, especially here in New York. So that's why I'm on the pop up vibe. But I think that doing a store that had objects and also like food you could eat would be really fun. Yeah. I think my dream would be to have a space where we sell a lot of cookbooks and independent publications like yourself, like Cake Scene.

50:52And we have a lot of our authors there in person. And I would love to bring this studio into our store and do live events. Oh, yeah. We should have a little podcast room that people with the little sign that says on air. On air, you know, a little on air. Yeah. Yeah. Like at Canal Street Market, how they have the little podcast recording room. Completely. I feel I don't know. We've like toyed with that. I remember when Turnstile opened, we had had meetings there back in like 2018 about doing like some kind of cookbook pop up. This is the underground mall by where we were. I don't think would have been the ideal.

51:27We would have all never seen the sunlight. No windows and it smells like, you know, scented candles. And the donut shop. The donut shop. There's a little mini donut shop. It's good. Those donuts are really good. And I respect them for staying open. There's actually a story in the New York Times about that specific retail shop. Do you know that like over 50 percent of Subway retail spaces are vacant in New York City? I mean, I think there are a couple things that should be sold in the Subway. Bodega, flower shop. Yeah. Maybe that's it. I think wine works because of the gifting element. I'm sure in Q4 you would sell a lot of wine.

52:02Yeah, there's like certain things you wouldn't want. Maybe donuts, I guess. I just feel like I don't if I'm on my office lunch break, I don't want to go underground to get my lunch. And if I'm in and out of the subway, I'm in a hurry. So I don't want to stop and be underground for longer, especially in the summer when it's so hot. I agree. It's challenging down there. Back to the taste pop up shop. But I'm kind of like we're like talking about it. Maybe it actually becomes something real. Yeah, if you're listening and you have affordable retail space in New York, let us know. Let's talk. We can talk terms.

52:32I just think having our authors here at Crown have a space to demo. I love the way in Seattle, the bookstore in Seattle. Book Larder. Book Larder. I love the way they have that beautiful demo kitchen within the bookstore. I think there's something there. Like we could get our authors to come by and do some demo. I don't know. Yeah, I like it. We're riffing. Do you have a final thing? I do. And speaking of indie media, Gary Hees' new McAtlas, holy cow, it's amazing. It's in pre-order. I'm linking to the show notes. Gary's a longtime photojournalist and writer at places like Eater, the New York Times.

53:10He sent me a very early PDF of the book. It's not completed yet, just so I could prep for a conversation. And really, it's such a cool document. He went to almost 50 countries to visit McDonald's. Let that sink in. Yeah. Yeah, I'm processing. I'm thinking about all of the different specialty menu items that they have at different locations. Is that a big part of the book? Absolutely. Really nice instinct there. I agree. This is a big part of the book. Traveling the world and seeing the way that the Filet-O-Fish is done. There's all sorts of Mexican food in Scandinavian countries. There's a cup of noodles in Taiwan.

53:49I mean, there's like really, really an amazing array of special dishes, special items. I mean, if we're talking about fast food in Taiwan, have you seen Pizza Hut Taiwan? No. That is incredible. They have like a pizza that looks like a turtle, for example. Really, it's like an art form, the level of fantasy fast food that's happening. Yeah. Well, Gary's book is really, it's shot beautifully. He put in the work and we're going to talk about it in a future episode. But really, hit that pre-order button. It's going to make such a gift in the fall. I'm a huge fan of Gary and his work. And I love this book, McAtlas.

54:27McAtlas. Thanks for talking three things with me. Great catching up with you, Eliza.

54:35This is Taste is hosted by Eliza Abarbanel and me, Matt Rodbar. The show is produced by Shalia Harris and Pat Stango and edited by Clayton Gumbert. Theme music by Steve Rydell. Visit Taste Online at tastecooking.com and make sure to subscribe to our newsletter for updates on all cool things that are happening.