441: Drink Better, Drink Less, Drink a Combustible Edison with Jim Meehan

26:43And I feel like as I sort of assessed the zeitgeist and, like, the sort of world in which I was writing in, I feel like we all live in a world full of deep expertise. And I feel like we, someone who knows everything about Korean food might know nothing about Japanese food or someone who knows everything about tiki drinks might know very little about Italian aperitivos. And I feel like we, while I love listening to an expert get crazy deep about what their field of expertise is, I feel like generous, generalist values was something that I sort of wanted to bring back to the front and center here.

27:19And so the handbook was a sort of way in which we sort of were able to do that conceptually. As far as the reader experience here, really the book started around a recipe collection process pre-pandemic where I looked at the history, which now it is history, which is so weird, but I look at the cocktail renaissance, this thing that you and I used to be a part of back in the day. and I think that if as we look back with our rose colored glasses I feel like the story of the lounges is really you know David Wondrich who wrote the Oxford Companion to Spirits of Cocktails which historically ends really sort of you know right around the beginning of the cocktail renaissance and I but I think that the story of the renaissance period is really told mostly through lounges where as someone who like worked at Gramercy Tavern and worked in restaurants before I started like focusing on lounge work.

28:16I think that the effect of like with, you know, Ticonderoga Club, they were working with Linton Hopkins at Eugene and Holman and Finch. And it was a big deal. Like when Linton Hopkins came to Pegu Club, he told us in 2005 that he had a Jerry Thomas and it was hugely influential to him. Or, you know, when Barbara Lynch opened Drink with John Gertzen after many years at Number Nine Park or, you know, with Jackson at Eastern Standard and with Thad at, you know, eventually opening Agricol, but before that being at Slanted Door with Eric Adkins and Marco Dionysus at Absinthe. And so I could go city to city, but every major city in America about 20 years ago, like whether it's Grant Ackett's and Aviary or it just goes on, like Daniel Hoom when Will Gadara, you know, turning the nomad more into a bar than a restaurant.

29:10Like when America's most influential chefs decided that it was time to like have a cocktail element to their experiences, that was actually where this book began. And I will preface these remarks by saying, like, I didn't want to write like a chef-y restaurant book, but I did want to reorient our rose-colored glasses towards the contribution of bartenders like Claire Sprouse or bartenders like Jana Wolfson, who, you know, ran the Enrique Alvarez programs. And I feel like there are so many bartenders in this book that many of them are household names, but some of them aren't. And it's because they were running restaurant bar programs where the chef still got the line.

29:58They were like usually the 12th or 14th graph in a review. Correct. Right. And that's a really solid point. Thank you for really laying it out. How, you know, restaurants and fine dining leading to the bar program led to this really exciting moment of the lounge, as you're saying. And I wonder just to kind of go in a little different direction. when these, all the chefs you mentioned, all the restaurants you mentioned decided to break into bar, how much of it was art and how much of it was commerce? Because it seems like, you know, this is a commercially driven decision to like, you know, the margins of running a bar to the side of your fine dining restaurant.

30:31Because, you know, when you throw down a cloth napkin, you ain't making any money. That's like the whole adage. Is it a real commercial thought? I mean, I think that the, you know, the Violet Hour, Paul Kahn's, you know, bar, like some of these places are still open. And some of them aren't, you know, and I think that. Booker and acts RIP, not opening. Yeah. So I feel like it's, I don't have a definitive answer whether they did it for money or for the art, but the thing I'll say is none of them had to do it. They were that powerful and many of them remain that powerful. So I think that irregardless of whether they did it because it was profitable or not, the fact that they did it really made a difference.

31:12And I think that was part of the story I wanted to tell. Yeah. And Bar Pender's Pantry, just again, is really laying out the foundation of how to really take the drink and bring it down to its most basic format outside of the spirits in many ways. Tell us, how do we use the book? Give us some examples. I mean, I as a sort of I don't know if I have ADD, but I don't have long attention span. So I mean, so I'm not I guess I'm undiagnosed, but I would say that I write I usually start writing books or I create projects that first are interesting to me because it takes me a long time to do them. So if I hopefully I'm enamored with it enough to stick with it.

31:53So I feel like the you can pick it up and read it from the beginning to the end. It reads like a great book, I think. But if you're like me and you don't have that level of attention, you can pick it up and, you know, go to the spice chapter. And there's like a, you know, 3 ,000 words about spices that talks about, you know, first how they were used originally in cocktails and then what spices are and then where they come from and then how they're processed and how they're then, you know, distributed from the processing point and then how you would source them and prep them. And then it goes into four illustrated recipes for how you would incorporate them into a beverage mixture.

32:32And then six photographed recipes that incorporate mixtures throughout the book. So it has, there's like a choose your own adventure, like sort of like path. There's a like cover to cover path. There's also just like, I want to read one recipe and every recipe comes with who, what, when, where, how and why in a pretty picture. Yeah, beautiful way to say it because it really does have a utility, right? choose your own adventure but definitely the writing that you and Emma worked on for so long is really great and it feels like there's small essays and large essays. There's points of view. Tough question but do you feel like this book is there any ground that you broke that you feel really particularly proud about that you were able to really bring into focus something that maybe in PDT and in the manual your two previous books you just didn't do and now you're here.

33:23I, you know, not to get too heavy too quickly, but I just feel like the writing this book during the pandemic from Portland, Oregon, during social justice protests that lasted a lot longer than anywhere else in the country, it seems like. I was an African-American studies major at the University of Wisconsin and an English major. And I feel like it sort of reforged some some interest in some pathways that had sort of been lying fallow for a very long time. And I feel like as someone who I'd like to think of as a progressive person, I feel like the lenses of race and gender and class and really sort of were something that I wove into this book.

34:07I feel like the previous—I've become more political as I've gotten older. And I feel like that is something that makes a lot of people uncomfortable. But I feel like it's something that I feel righteous about. So I think that while I don't think this is like a liberal Portland book, like that you sort of will, you know, that someone can like lampoon in political media. I do think that there are there were some things that I was able to articulate through the using food and drink as a sort of proxy that I feel like are really that you don't see in a lot of food books. And that I think whether people agree with it or not, I think I laid out my reasons and I laid out my points.

34:50And I think that the – I said something last night which I had no plans of talking about. But I think that there are recipes like horchata or tapache or kombucha, kvass, chai. And I – as someone who's like not a scholar but who tries to be scholarly in my research, I was – I frequently wasn't finding a lot of information about this drink. And it hit me like a ton of bricks when I realized the reason why these drinks aren't in a lot of books and the reason why there's not a lot of research on them, I think, is because these are drinks that are created by women. And they're made by women. And the prep that goes into them is laborious.

35:28And a lot of these women come from cultures where their recipes and their traditions are passed down orally. And they're only passed down orally because no one has taken the time to interview them and really find out what exactly they're doing. And there was like a real sort of like patriarchal like sort of like moment where I realized like, you know, this is sad that there are these brilliant recipes that are just overlooked. They're taken for granted. And I think labor is something that like I think Emma and I really were able to like when we talk about the importance of like knowing who grows your food, it's not some sort of like gestural, you know.

36:09Virtual signaling. Yeah, virtue signaling. It's really like field workers are skilled laborers and they're growing and picking. And, you know, like in agave and she, you know, she's an expert in the agave space. Like there's a great reverence for the Himidor, the people who harvest the agaves. And I feel like that sort of reverence should be bestowed upon strawberry pickers and upon people who harvest cinnamon quills. So I feel like it's hopefully like people there was someone I talked to recently said he didn't realize that like every cinnamon quill is, you know, made by hand. And I think that that's something that like I think that our food is so packaged and we're so divorced from the reality of where it comes from and how it's processed.

36:56And so I feel like hopefully people will become more aware of that and more appreciative. And not just aware of that idea, but of food having a place, but also drinks should be included in all this conversation. And that's the whole ethic of this book. It's really that when you go and order a cocktail, be it at a dive bar and it's a rum and coke or be it a intricate eight part, you know, daiquiri. There's going to be a lot of people who touch those ingredients. there's a not to like you know very not i buried the lead as as many of us oftentimes do in our books but i basically what i've sort of said at the end of read go to skip to the afterward if you want to get to the yeah right people the afterward has the juicy bits but i feel like in the afterwards i say that you know the drinks that i'm writing about and the the sort of recipes that i'm talking about i'm not once you understand that drinks are not salad and therefore you should not have you should not drink alcohol like you eat salad which hopefully you eat your vegetables um once you stop thinking about and and like drinking like like you eat salad hopefully you will realize that like cocktails occupy the same space in at the dinner table or in a restaurant or a bar as like say chocolate cake does or or as like a weight wagyu beef you know like you shouldn't eat a lot of wagyu beef and you shouldn't eat a lot of chocolate cake but that doesn't mean that you shouldn't have like a little bit of it.

38:25And I think that I tried to sort of, and I buried this in the back, but I will say that like, I think once we stop drinking alcohol or covering alcohol as if it's like this innocuous substance and start viewing it like any other thing we do in our life, whether it's working out or sleeping or having sex or eating, everything needs to be done in moderation. And the reality is we all need to drink a lot less, but that doesn't mean we need to not drink at all. And I think that like one thing that I won't apologize for is that I think food and drink are not different. They are the same thing. And making drinks, especially these type of drinks, is cooking.

39:06They're not different. Well, yeah, I mean, that's my huge takeaway from this exactly. And really earlier in the conversation, you drew the connection between the fine dining chefs embracing the bar program. And clearly, there being a lot of like relationships here and they're really it is it is the you're publishing a cookbook it is a cookbook i mean this is truly what it is i mean there's no it's not a drinks book and um what a challenging topic to really chew and must have been a lot of soul searching to bring these big ideas into focus but you've done it brilliantly thank you i mean i really give emma a lot of credit for i also like there's a lot of quoting like i read a lot of books there are a lot of other writers big ideas in here.

39:48Like this book doesn't occur without Wendell Berry or Alice Waters. I mean, I could go on and on. You have a great glossary with a lot of other sources and definitely you give acknowledgement. You mentioned that you're a University of Wisconsin grad, as am I. We attended the school at the same time. Go Badgers, I guess. No, actually, I've thought about a lot. I don't love the mascot. I'm just not a huge fan of the aesthetics of the Badger. Never minded Bucky Badger. You never minded it. But anyways, we both attended at the same time. And we didn't know each other in college per se. But I did go to your bars, Paul's Club and Jenna's.

40:20And I was just there for this great work we were doing with Wisconsin Cheese Board. And I was there and I was walking and Jenna's is open and the Dice is open and the Tornado Room is still open. All of those places. What's it like working at Jenna's in like 98, 99? So Paul's Club was where I was in 98, 99. I was drinking at Jenna. Okay, I always confuse that. Yeah. The greatest part about going back to Madison, I feel like, is that it's deeply conservative in the best way because, like, nothing ever kind of changes. And I feel like there's something deeply comforting about that. You know, I guess it's a farmer thing where like a lot of farmers, you know, who have massive, huge overheads are very conservative.

41:03You know, they have to, you know, the outlay for machinery, the outlay for crops, the knowledge that you could have a bad year and need to have money in the bank. I feel like it's a state filled with very mostly fiscally conservative, but somewhat socially conservative people. So, but there, it's almost, you know, the social, the socializing there, it takes on, they're very serious about that. Yeah. And they're serious about the old fashioned. Yes. They're serious, obviously about, about beer. Yes. When you're at Paul's Club, what are some of the early drinks that you're, that you're making, that you're learning to make, that you're kind of starting this, I would say probably an interest.

41:41Yeah. I'm not sure it's a profession by then, but it's an interest at least in making drinks. It's funny as I look back to, I went to Wisconsin in 95. I started bartending in 95, 96. I started working in a bar. I worked at State Street Brats, which is still open. It's still amazing. But Paul's Club was like the serious adult bar that I started as a door person and ended up managing. I was there for, I think, four or five years. And as I look back to that time, 1998 was a big year that I think the Bombay Sapphire comes out around that time. I think Patron comes out around that time. So as I and I also remember that the the single malts like Obin, Lagavulin, Dalwini, those came out a few years before this time.

42:27And also this is the beginning of the small batch bourbon movement where like Booker's and Basil Hayden and Blanton's and these like sort of. So when we were in college, as a lot of people were drinking Long Island iced teas and Alabama Slammers and Swamp Waters, I was drinking Bombay Sapphire and Tonics. And I actually remember going to the Magnus and spending my Pulse Club tips. I was drinking Hirsch 16 and Hirsch 20. Oh, my gosh. Hirsch. Wow. To get anything with a number with Hirsch. Yep. Wow. Save that bottle. Yeah, I was definitely at Amy's Cafe drinking Long Island iced teas, just to give you my context.

43:03Yeah, but I feel like once I started bartending, especially like closer to the capital, I was making a lot of money there. Yeah, absolutely. So when you talk about 98 this year, I want to dig into this. So Bombay Sapphire. So before Sapphire, that expression is released. What is Bombay then? I mean, basically like Bombay is just a red bottle, which still exists. But I mean, when we were in college, the martini was so ascendant. It was when you went out for drinks in the 90s, you went out for martinis. And that could be anything from a Miller Lite to a Long Island iced tea to a lemon drop. You know, so it's it really the martini.

43:40People went out for martinis until really around the Pegu Club when the old fashioned finally like the coupe glass toppled the martini glass. And then the old fashioned and the big ice cube kind of took them down after that that sort of coupe really took it out of its knees. Do you remember the Cosmo debuting in Madison? Do you remember? I worked at Cafe Momar for about a year and a half or two with Brandon and Bob and Ben and Shannon. Shirley Manson and Butch Vig hanging out. Yeah, it was like Roscoe Mitchell concerts. So cool. It was so cool. I was a huge Smashing Pumpkins fan and serving Butch Vig was very cool.

44:19Without casting any shade or aspersions, we had fresh lemon and lime juice every day at Cafe Momar. And we were making fresh juice sidecars. There was a bar next door called The Sidecar, which Gabe Stolman ran for a while after I was gone. Virgil Abloh also DJed there with him, who was his best friend. But we were making fresh ingredient classic cocktails in Madison, Wisconsin, Cafe Noir in the 90s. It was also happening, you know, at it probably happened a little bit at the Magnus. And it probably also happened at Tornado as well. How did those recipes get to Madison then? Was there a funnel from New York?

44:57Was stuff happening in New York that was informing Madison or were people in Madison just doing it? You know what's fascinating? I don't know the answer. Craig and Shannon and I haven't talked in forever. But I will say that there was a drink that became famous in Madison that I think might have become famous at Paul's Club or nearby called the Combustible Edison. And there was a Boston-based DJ and musician named Brother Cleave who just passed a couple years ago, sadly. But Brother Cleave was like the origin of Misty Kalkovan and John and Jackson. And it was called the Jack Rose Society in Boston.

45:35And he remembered gigging in Madison and remembers drinking combustible Edison's there. So I think, sadly, Brother Cleave is not here to help me answer that question. But I feel like my sort of armchair, sort of like not factual journalistic guess is that in the same way that like nothing has ever changed in Wisconsin, like there's squeezing lemon or lime juice is like an old fashioned thing. And I feel like it's an old fashioned city and state. That's why we love it. Yeah. Absolutely love it. Last question before I get to the final section. I mean, fact or fiction, you can pretty much find a great cocktail anywhere right now.

46:16Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. So I feel like I won't say that it is either fact or fiction. And I say I don't mean to be like sobsistic or slippery, but I will say that like, can I find a great cocktail everywhere? No. But I think that some people can. It depends on where you're looking and what you're looking for, you know? Yeah, I mean, I guess my point, and maybe you can address this, is that because of the work that was being done at all the places that you mentioned in the early 2000s, it is now virtually impossible to go to a major city and not have a great cocktail list and likely very good made cocktails.

46:58So I'm kind of differentiating. I'm saying like the actual lists are interesting. I mean, who knows what the execution is? Yeah, I think that it's, I've talked to a few like kind of grumpy, salty friends of mine. And I would definitely say that like, it is certainly progress that like you can go almost anywhere now and expect to be able to like order a margarita and like be asked if it's straight up on the rock, salt or no salt. And maybe even some enthusiastic bartender will ask you if you'd like a Tommy's margarita or with a quantro, like whatever. But I think that the proliferation of lists where every place has to have its own cocktail menu in some ways has worked against the kind of customer in that not every bar and restaurant should have innovative.

47:44Like, for instance, you showed me the Jenna's list earlier. And other than the Dirty Shirley, which is an abomination in many ways, is like it's a list filled with classic cocktails. And I feel like most places, I think, should have a list of classic cocktails. And then there are some places where there's some virtuoso mixologist who should create their own list. But I think that, yeah, I guess coming from Wisconsin and being a salty mixologist, I'd like to see more lists of classics and not necessarily everyone under the sun kind of creating their own universe of drinks. Yeah, I'll leave it at that.

48:23On This is Taste, we have a guess about the discerning taste. So to close this interview, here's a little rapid fire, fast and furious. Taste check, are you ready? I'm ready. The best fruit. I thought about this, and I think it's the mango. But that's an eating fruit, not a mixological fruit. We're going straight, like you, human being. Mango. Not, okay. Worst vegetable. I love all vegetables, but the rutabaga is hard. Oh, I don't think I've even messed with the rutabaga. A rutabaga, it's a quiet taste. Yeah, it's probably very vegetal. I'm not even going to think about it. The best dessert. This is going to disappoint a lot of people, but I'm just going to go with chocolate cake.

49:00Yeah, when it's good, it's good. And do you have a favorite in mind, restaurant-wise? Oh, my gosh. No, actually, Tara Lou is pastry goddess in Portland, Oregon. And I think she's at No Saint right now. She used to be at Ava Jean's. So whatever cake Tara Lou is making in Portland, Oregon. Tough one, your favorite cookbook of all time. This is a tough one. And I think that the cookbook that is most used in my house is Marcello Hazan's classic of essential Italian cooking. As I was thinking, like, as a person of likes things and who, like, is it like sort of dilettante about cookbooks. I think the prune book might be my most precious.

49:41I think it is a precious thing. And I think Gabrielle Hamilton's taste and writing are exquisite. Yeah. And, like, as a package, you mentioned as an object. Curved corners. the Moleskine thing the like the way that she has like the tape and the notes and like she has a recipe for like tin fish I mean she is just in the same way that Julie Reiner is a bad bad person she is a bad bad person like she is a genius yeah and I think we're all anxiously waiting to see the next output like what's what's gonna happen or like I'm she can put down her knives for all I care I mean she's just she is done I meant writing I don't care I mean Pruden's a private dining space She can do whatever she wants in that space.

50:22But I'm talking about writing. What's your next book? Blood, Bones, and Butter is just - Yeah, devastating in the best way possible. A couple tough ones, but I think you were going to rise to this. Your favorite New York City restaurant right now? I had dinner at Chiquette a couple nights ago. Yeah, you mentioned it. It's cool. And it was very good. I haven't been back in a minute. That's a great reminder. Chiquette, go there. Favorite Portland restaurant? I got to spend about four nights in Portland recently, and I had such a good time. I am a regular at Lovely's 50-50. Yeah. And I have to say that like I don't tip.

50:54She was on some Netflix show and there's usually lines out the door there now. She was up for Outstanding Chef. And I've been eating there ever since I moved there. There's like ice cream and pizza and I love it. I usually get it to go, but it is a wonderful restaurant too. Good answer. Do you miss Andy Ricker's restaurants in Portland? No, because they're impossible to get into. They were. I missed his restaurants in Brooklyn where I can typically like New York my way into them. Yeah. And he and I ended up becoming friends and he's lovely. But yeah, like I don't. The ones in Portland were a little more challenging.

51:23Yeah, busy. And like Portland, the rules, you know, everyone waits in Portland. You like living there? I like, yes, I do like living there. Yeah, you pause for a second, but I know you like. They don't like me there, but I like being. Like I feel like eventually Portland will acknowledge that like as a homeowner and having a child there and my parents living there and me being there for a decade. Like at some point they will have to figure out that I am theirs, whether they like me or not. But no bar. That's their choice. Like that, you know, I feel like I recently did a shift at, it's funny, I did a guest at shift at the Stumptown that just opened up.

51:59They asked me if I'd like make non-alcoholic coffee drinks and I love coffee. Yeah. And Stumptown's an institution in Portland and I did it and like no one came and I was like, oh, this is why I'm not at Takibi. This is why Takibi's not open. Like, it's just it's a I could sit here and feel bad on your podcast. But like, no, you're not feeling bad. I think you're just being straight talk. But I mean, is it just the matter of that city has its guys and you're just not in the club yet? Or is it just a matter of that city has enough guys and you don't need another guy? I think the club is not interested in new membership.

52:31It's not taking new members right now. I think that's part of it. And I think that also, unlike New York, there's dining dollars don't go as far. and there's so many good restaurants in Portland. So I just think as an operator, I would like to think that like, that I could open a place and that I would be able to like, sort of like make my own way. And it's just, it doesn't necessarily work like that. You need everybody's buy-in. And so it's been, I mean, I had a pandemic that also kind of got in the way of the orientation. It took a few years. Yeah, like my orientation was segmented by a pandemic.

53:03So I'm hoping that like, I don't know, maybe a third book and in my second decade, Portland could warm up to my cold heart. Let's hope for that. And I showed up Peter Cho at Hanok and Jeju. Jeju is like on fire. Your favorite city outside America to visit for food and drink. That like took me half a second and that is Tokyo. Like I am obsessed with Japan and I love Tokyo more than anything. I feel like I interviewed you or talked to you like probably 07, 08, before I started writing about Korea and had been there. I've been there many times since. And I remember talking to you about Tokyo at that time.

53:37and you were like, you said the same thing and I was like, man, I am really fucking up by not going there. No, I'm not. You've always been very attuned to Japanese culture. I love Tokyo too. Like I just feel like it is, I love Japanese culture. I love Tokyo. It's, every time I go back, it's an onion that I, like I peel back another layer and it's just, it's deeply rewarding to travel there. So yeah, but I've been to Seoul twice and I've also had wonderful warm experiences in Seoul but I've been fortunate enough to get invited and go back to Tokyo much more frequently than I've gotten to go to Korea.

54:13You have to, when you go to Korea, just think about the coffee scene there. I know. They're lapping Japan right now. Julie Wolfson is my coffee person in America, and she's been back there a bunch. And I love, obviously, LA has a massive Koreatown. So I feel like there's a big connection between what's going on in LA and what's going on in Seoul and Korea. Last one, your favorite sandwich. I know this is going to disappoint a lot of people too, but I had a very good turkey club in Portland. And I feel like a turkey club is a sandwich that just needs a lot more love than it usually gets. But a good turkey club really captures my heart.

54:49It's an extremely difficult sandwich. It pulls my heartstrings. It really does when it's good. But think about it. You got to make sure. Remember the Knicks turkey club? Yes, of course I do. So I feel like. That's insane. I've loved that. Yeah, I feel like the Knicks Turkey Club in Madison, Wisconsin, like that is what I'm talking about when I say I love the turkey club. Are you seated? Yes, you are. I'm watching you. Are you ready for this news? Knicks closed like two months ago. Literally two months ago it closed. It's going to become a Mexican restaurant. Don't know if the aesthetics are going to remain the same.

55:18Do you know, like what did the family? I believe there was a death. Yeah. But don't quote me on that. But God, so many memories in Knicks. I mean, Knicks was two doors down from Paul's Club. It was. Many a turkey club that fueled me for my life. Jimmy, and thank you so much for joining This Is Taste. Yeah, thank you. I'm looking forward to that colorful portrait that I feel like all the most famous people in the world get after they sit on your taste podcast. Well, Ellie's going to kill this one. Make sure to get all the hair just right on top. Thanks, buddy. Absolutely.

55:57This is Taste is hosted by Eliza Abarbanel and me, Matt Rodbar. The show is produced by Shalia Harris and Pat Stango and edited by Clayton Gumbert. Theme music by Steve Rydell. Visit Taste online at tastecooking.com and make sure to subscribe to our newsletter for updates on all cool things that are happening.