445: Eating at James Baldwin’s Table with Cree Myles

0:28This episode is brought to you by Resi and American Express. It's a testament to the way that Baldwin lived his life. The fact that, like, all of this time has been dedicated to talk about him 100 years after he was born. Like, that's proof of a life that was pristinely lived, you know?

0:48This is Taste. I'm your host, Eliza Barbanel.

0:59Cree Miles is the curator of the Black literature community Always Black and the host of the James Baldwin Centennial podcast, a new podcast from Vintage Books examining James Baldwin's life and words to commemorate the centennial of his birth. She's also one of my favorite sources of book recommendations, and it's so fun to have her on the show to talk about the intersection of food and literature.

1:29Cree Miles, this is Taste. Thank you for coming on the podcast. I'm so excited. It's so fun to have you here in New York. We met for the first time over the internet and then in Milwaukee because you're a friend of my uncle's. So I asked him if I can mention this on the show and he said yes. Good, because I was, I mean, I didn't know. We had to mention David. I got consent, yeah. I said, is it OK if we talk about you? We'll say nice things. And he said, I hope you would say nice things. He's my David is so many things to me. One, I love reference. We talk about books a lot, which is wonderful and refreshing to be able to do that with someone who's not like in the book space.

2:08And he puts me on to the classical music. He's also my 14 year old's like classical music buddy. I love that. He's just a part of the family. He's like the Jewish uncle that you never had. Literally. Absolutely. And literally. Yes. I know he's your Uncle David. And as I was thinking you were going to call him Uncle David, I was like, do I want to call him Uncle David? I have to ask him. Yeah, that's another consent thing. Yeah, that's another consent thing. Hopefully. So Milwaukee is where you and my Uncle David both live, which is one of my favorite cities to visit. I'm curious if you could maybe tell folks who are not familiar what the Milwaukee food vibe is, maybe where you would take them for the day if they'd never been before.

2:45Yeah. So I am a mostly plant based person. I'm I also I generally don't turn away food when people offer it to me. So that kind of informs the places that I go eat. There's a place close to my house on the east side called Strange Town. And it's all vegan. It has this flourless chocolate cake that is I dream about it. And then there's a place on the southeast side in a community called Bayview that I, all of my pregnancies, I dreamed about their oyster mushrooms called Goodkind that I also deeply, deeply love. And then for like the bougie people, there's like odd duck, like that if you want to like drop a bunch of money and et cetera.

3:28But we usually stick to the more niche spots, I think. Yeah, I want to hear more about the oyster mushrooms. How were they prepared? Was it just straight up mushroom? They're fried. Okay. So, yeah, there and it is it's it's just a straight up mushroom. There's some type of sauce involved, like a clear, thinner sauce, like brown, thin sauce. I don't know what kind of sauce it is. I was telling them, like, food is such an indulgence in my life that I usually I at this point, because of the 72 children that I have that I'm just like eating to I'm just eat to live. Like you're eating like whatever they're eating.

4:06Whatever. Right. Exactly. So I don't know what the sauce is called, but it's delicious. Yeah. It sounds awesome. I'll have to go there the next time in Milwaukee. What I do when I'm in Milwaukee is eat a lot of frozen custard. Yeah. Oh, my God. Right. Cops. Shout out to Cops. Is Cops the one that has like the giant statue of a fork inside? Maybe it's a spoon. That would make more sense. It's kind of by the sculpture. There's a couple of them. So. Yeah. It's a chain restaurant. um maybe that one of them might have a giant utensil inside of it um there's cows on the outside like yeah yes that's the one yeah yeah i love that and also honey pie i think is the brunch place yes the like soul food yeah yeah and like really buttery crust flaky pies also i feel like milwaukee you can't talk about it and not talk about beer and bars because i think it's the most bars per square capita in the entire country that's what i've heard yeah and cheese curds Yeah.

5:03Yeah. Are you pro cheese curd as a plant based eater? I love cheese. Yes. I but like the reality around the veal industry is is terrible. But cheese is delicious. Yes. Yeah. And like a squeaky fresh cheese curd. Oh, I like them like fried. Oh, yeah. I mean, you know what? As a child, squeaky fresh cheese curds everywhere. But like, it's like the fried ones where like the cheese is melted. And then yeah, like from Culver's. Texture thing. Texture. I'm into that. Yeah. OK. We could talk about cheese curts all day, but I want to talk about the reason why you're here in New York at the Penguin Random House offices, which is that you're recording a new limited podcast, the James Baldwin Centennial Podcast, which, as the name suggests, is exploring James Baldwin's life and his words around the 100th anniversary of his birth.

5:51And you're getting to have all these really cool conversations with like Roxanne Gay and Jessica B. Harris, who we love here at Taste. Yeah. And I'm just curious, like what the experience has been like for you so far. What drew you to this in the first place? Well, one shout out to Shalia and Stephanie Bowen for all that they've done to make this possible. Yeah. Shalia, who's our producer, one of our producers here at Taste is also producing your podcast. Yeah. Is in the studio with us right now. For sure. It's been so much fun to spend the times like this. Production days are long and taxing by nature.

6:25And I knew that from previous productions. So I like came in prepared. But I just think it's a testament to the way that Baldwin lived his life. The fact that like all of this time has been dedicated to talk about him 100 years after he was born. Like that's that's proof of a life that was pristinely lived, you know. like his commitment to truth and honesty and liberation it's been such an extraordinary privilege like I can't it's been wonderful yeah I'm sure it's really special and also probably a lot of preparation goes into it how did you handle trying to talk about like the history and context for his life and then also the reasons why it's relevant to discuss it in the present yeah um I mean I think my entry point for literature in the first place and my love of it is because I I like old literature.

7:15I read Bluest Eye when I was 25, which was nine years ago. And it came out, you know, in 1970. And it had such a profound impact on me. It really showed me how timeless some themes can be, especially around like representation and identity. So I knew all the things that Baldwin has talked about as far as his blackness and his queerness and his like political ideology, all of that, I knew that it was going to be timely. One, because we move at a glacial pace around reformation that needs to happen. And two, because the truth is just always relevant. And that's what he was doing. He was telling the truth.

8:00I love that. I'm just like sitting with the truth is always relevant because I think not enough people hear that or internalize that. Have there been any like particularly illuminative conversations that you've had during the recording sessions? I mean... All of them. Right. Okay. One, I had like Robert Jones Jr. coming in. His suit was fire, first of all, which I knew it was going to be. Also his loafers. Wait, what color was the suit? It was a pattern, like a floral pattern. Springtime. Yeah, springtime. It went crazy. And he's got this salt and pepper situation going on that he used to not have on his beard.

8:38It was... He looked so great. We were like, Robert, it's working. It's working. We love it. But to hear him talk about like he went back to school to get his undergrad for writing in his 30s and was like in a classroom with like 18 and 19 year olds. and the grappling that he had to do with like like belonging and validation and finding Baldwin at that time in his life and getting so excited that he makes this 300 ,000 person community on the internet and then getting so excited that you write a book that's a finalist for a national book award just like that's the impact of Baldwin like it really it makes you like go after the thing that you want with a fire in your soul dr harris like slowly breaking down to us getting read the rough draft of if beale street could talk in his house in the south of france while she was rooming with tony morrison is what i can't like i could not even i couldn't even so yeah those two dante stewart was phenomenal everybody's just phenomenal roxane gay kevin Young.

9:45He was so wonderful. I hadn't even talked to Kevin Young before. It was all wonderful. Yeah. I mean, congratulations to you and the whole team that was booking that lineup because that's all star. All star. The day that I found out we got Roxane Gay, I think I fell out of my chair. So yeah, absolutely. I love that. And I want to obviously talk more about Jessica B. Harris's meals with James Baldwin, considering the nature of this podcast and not only just the stellar lineup of people that were dining at James Baldwin's welcome table with her, but also just the food and the moment and dining that was happening in the 70s in the south of France.

10:18Yeah. Because I feel like it relates to just like so many other things. I'm curious if she talked at all about what they were eating together or how you see like dining and food fitting into what was informing Baldwin at that point in time. Yeah. She talked about that he was just in the world, like no matter where he went, he would have the meal of the place and just like fully indulge in it. It was really beautiful to hear her talk about that. And I do think it lended itself to how he just lived fully in general, like the way that he tells truth and the way that he leans on love is just completely in line, like with how he participated in eating and his commitment to this welcome table and building community around meals.

11:08And it sounds like he he was aligned, like the way that he lived, the way that he spoke, the way that he created his art were of one. Yeah, definitely like rooted in the present and the beauty that can only come from being in one point in time. Yes, exactly. Because she talked about him eating with him in Europe. She talked about eating with him in New York. So like she just talked about all the different places that they have broken bread together. Yeah, I love that. And saying broken bread reminds me of a quote of Baldwin's that I was revisiting in preparation to talk to you that I just wanted to read in case...

11:43Other people maybe haven't heard this before, because I think it says so much about Baldwin and obviously about food. Although I'm nervous to read in front of you now. Oh, no. Listen, I jumbled over. Shalia can tell you every time I had to read a quote, I was like, like it was not happening. OK, we'll see how it goes. So this is from his essay, The Fire, next time. And he says, to be sensual, I think, is to respect and rejoice in the force of life, life itself, and to be present in all that one does. From the effort of loving to the breaking of bread. It will be a great day for America, incidentally, when we begin to eat bread again, instead of the blasphemous and tasteless foam rubber that we have substituted for it.

12:20And I'm not being frivolous now either. Something very sinister happens to the people of a country when they begin to distrust their own reactions as deeply as they do here and to become as joyless as they have become. which I was reading that and I was just thinking about so many things one being just the poor quality of food that's available to people in America specifically black people in that period in time also just like the fetishization of European bread that I feel like people have even still today yeah people are like oh I went to Europe and the gluten didn't bother me at all yes oh my yes and honestly the separation the divorcing of like black people from the participation of creating the food of farming and gardening because of the shame that it brings up around enslavement definitely and also the the fact that people are being taught not to trust their experiences the way that they perceive things like yeah not being able to acknowledge that the bread isn't of good quality that it's stale or that it's not from good ingredients and that when you dull your senses to that you dull yourself to wanting more out of life in other ways as well oh my god yes you you know what i've been meditating on recently is there are people around me who will swear that they're picky eaters like or like whatever whatever but the actual truth of the matter is is that they are addicted to sugar and salt and there is a direct correlation you in some of the people that i'm thinking of between like their relationship with sugar and salt specifically and their relationship with like the pursuit of a full life.

13:53As in they're overly pursuing it or they're not pursuing it? They're not. They're just kind of like content with like they like thrive in overstimulation and like procrastination. You know what I mean? Yeah. I think I've always been like preoccupied with the idea of picky eating in part because I was a picky eater growing up in some ways. I didn't like dairy and I didn't like eating eggs. And now I love dairy and I love spicy things and some things that I really didn't like as a kid. But I just do not like eating eggs and I don't think I ever will. And being in food and like having that is always kind of funny because people love eggs.

14:26It's like one of those things. Staple. Yeah. But then I think about other kinds of picky eating. And to me, the idea of being scared to try something to me, I'm like, what if this could be your favorite food? Right. And you don't know. But then I think on the flip side, like what if you've eaten a lot of food that's just been bad? And so you don't want to try something new and be disappointed because you have the things that are safe for you. Yeah. Yeah, that's exactly. That's exactly it. So I have to know, if you were going to cook for James Baldwin, what would you make? So, yeah, when I was thinking about cooking, this is a confession hour.

14:58I don't cook at my house. My partner does 100 % of the cooking. What would you have for James Baldwin? If James Baldwin was coming over, I would. My father raises lambs. so i would take some of his lamb because i would feel like oh this is farm like whatever you know very um ethically grown lamb so something around it would center around lamb and then either like a red potato i can see something like that happening and just like asparagus why red potatoes i don't know that's what i just saw on the plate i wanted some color yeah Yeah. So, yeah, that's what I think I would make for him. And would you have your kids there?

15:53Yes, I do. Generally, like when David comes over, his like tolerance for my children are so high, I think, in part because he doesn't live with young children. So he can just hang out with them and kick it with him. And I'm assuming it would be similar with Baldwin, though, of course, I'm not sure. Yeah. Plus, you have to give your kids the experience of being able to say, guess who I had over for dinner last night? James Baldwin. Exactly. So, yeah, I'm not depriving anybody of that. OK, so what about dessert? Well, my husband makes homemade ice cream, so that's that's always our dessert. I never know what it's going to be.

16:26Cashew, chocolate, banana. Like what he just makes it, whatever's in the house. And it has never turned out poorly. I love that. I feel like having the lamb that your father raised and the ice cream that your partner made is such a, like personal meal, which I think is the only way to go when you're feeding somebody that's so legendary. You're not going to, I mean, no disrespect to anyone, but you might not make better French food than James Baldwin has had before, but you can make something that like only you can make. From your heart. Yeah. And to that point, if I knew I could get him in like late summer, I would totally pull something out of the garden too.

17:00So then like whatever vegetable we're eating came straight out of the backyard. Yeah. Yeah. I think if we're resuscitating Baldwin, he can definitely come in the summer for you. Perfect. Okay. Thank you. I'll talk to the powers that be yeah perfect perfect so i want to talk about like food writing and literature with you because i love your book recommendations and you're just such a voracious reader i'm curious are there any like iconic scenes in food literature or moments for you yeah um so because my husband's the cook i had him because also i would like to say that he is a voracious reader that's one of the reasons we fell in love and so i said do you have food books because i'm going to talk to eliza and you are the cooker.

17:39And he said that he loves Afro Vegan by Brian Terry, of course. Yeah. And he does like when if it's like Sunday and Brian's got space, he will open up one of Brian's like three hour recipes and just like kind of go at it, which is really beautiful. And he also loves this is so funny to me. Anthony Bourdain's Kitchen Confidential. Have you read that? No, I didn't even know Brian had read it. Cree, you have to read it. I have to read it? Yeah. It's like iconic. Is it? Okay. All right. Which I don't like recommending things just because they're important necessarily. You gotta like it. But I mean, he's a really singular writer.

18:19He has a great voice. And especially in the moment in time when that book was published, he was really pulling back the curtain on a lot of ways of like how the restaurant industry worked or, you know, like maybe you don't want to eat the fish at the end of the week because the delivery comes on Monday or like those kinds of things. But he really is just kind of encouraging people to be unabashed in their appetites and to do things. And yeah, I think that like the way that he's morphed as a figure in pop culture after death, like maybe can be a little bit much sometimes. But I do think the book, at least the last time I read it, it held up for me.

18:52It's worth it. OK. All right. I'll give it a go. And it sounds like it's in the house. Yeah. I'm going to check it out. I feel like kids books are also another big uncharted territory of like great food moments. like Cloudy with a Chance of Meatballs, things like that. Oh, gosh, yeah. I'm trying to think. What if we—I mean, we're in our frog and toad era right now for sure. Oh, that's really cute. It's really—it's so cute and it's super wholesome. And those two make each other meals. Like, it's really— Well, they love each other. They love each other. They're in a relationship. Yes, they are. You said, we're going to call it.

19:28Yes. Well, didn't, like, the writer—it was—I think it's canon that they're— that they're gay and that they're in love right i never checked i know i'm gonna do like a really quick google search no because that's totally yeah that's totally worth frog and toad dating question yeah okay so i'm reading this article about this and they're they're talking about i don't know if you've read this book what it's like the christmas eve frog and toad book yes and toad is like waiting anxiously at home for frog yep yeah i read that i read this recently yes that's so funny yeah okay so he's he's waiting anxiously at home for frog and he's imagining all these like dramatic things that have happened to him.

20:04Yeah. I mean, do you want to tell it? Oh, OK. Well, I can. So he is saying that he has to. Isn't it like he has to go out and he has to grab this thing to go get him because it'll be dark and he won't. So he's like collecting the things to go save Frog. Yeah. And then Frog shows up at Toad's door with a gift in his hand and he was late because he was wrapping it. And then Toad says, oh, Frog, I'm so glad to be spending Christmas with you. I know. I know. It was really cute. I really I teared up when I read it. It's so yeah it's a it's a masterpiece. Yeah it is a masterpiece and I guess like they make each other I feel like it's British kind of like tea and trumpets and things like that.

20:42Exactly those type of things and like take care of each other when they're sick I think there was some soup involved at one point. So yeah their their meals like I said I really like the throwbacks when it comes to literature that's really what draws me to it in the first place and And I love the illustrations of like food. And I love like when it's described in because even this isn't my favorite like food moment in literature. But I always think about these ash cakes that Ta-Nehisi Coates references in The Water Dancer. And I'm like I or like the you know, a Turkish delight from Lion, Witch and the Wardrobe.

21:22So, yeah, absolutely. Did you do you like Turkish delight? I've never had it. okay I'm scared to have another Shalia said no that's what I'm almost gonna say this too is you read it as a kid and you think it's gonna be the most amazing amazing thing ever and then you actually have it I don't know if you like um like squishy like things you know I wouldn't say it's my favorite I was just talking to um the novelist Selena Baljeet Basra on the podcast she had a great book called Happy that came out last year and she's she lives in Germany she's Indian and she was talking about how growing up she read a ton of like British children's books because that's what is in a lot of like the schools and in the families in India.

21:58And so she would read about like Turkish delight or tea and crumpets and all of these things that she thought would be so delicious. And she actually tried them and she was like, actually this isn't as good as the writing made me think it was going to be. Which is so funny because I do think about, especially when you're reading old books, there are things that are described in this way that the same way, like a character is being described or it's adding into the fantasy. But then when you actually eat it, it's quite different than what you think. Because even looking up the ash cakes, like looking up an ash cake recipe, It sounds terrible.

22:26Yeah. What is an ash cake? It's like just like cornmeal and water. Like it's just like to fill your stomach so that you survive. So I was like, oh, that's terrible. I'm curious, like how you would even describe like what makes good food writing to you? Because I think for me, like you can say it doesn't use the word delicious or it's talking about your senses. But like it's kind of a difficult quality of like something that is special. Yeah. I was talking about this with Dr. Harris, actually. And I think it's it sets you firmly in the place. So like when we were talking about Baldwin Giovanni's room, we were in the cafes in Paris when he was describing like the drinks that were coming out and what was coming out with it.

23:10In Go Tell and on the Mountain, the after church meals, like one that is a cultural experience that I think I share with Baldwin. And I just so distinctly see it. And it is very fascinating how little it's changed in the many years that the black church has existed. So I think that's like a number one quality is it puts me deeper into the room than I would have been if the food hadn't been there. I love that. What would you say are like the core elements of the black after church meal? OK, definitely need those like the rolls, like the cheap rolls. You know what I'm talking about, Shalee? Are we in on this?

23:49We've upgraded. Like break apart. Oh, see, we've upgraded to like are you talking about the brown and serves? Yeah. Oh, yeah. I love a brown and serve. Are you kidding me? You need a brown and serve. You need some green beans. If this is all happening on one of those styrofoam plates with the dividers. The different compartments. Yeah, the different compartments. And you need, I distinctly see these two things. Oh, maybe some like potato salad. I'm seeing potato salad and some type of ridiculous meat. Like that's got way too much sodium in it. How about a dessert situation? Because I won't go to a church meal or repast without a church lady pound cake.

24:31Oh, I know that's, listen, I have a great aunt Rose who makes a seven pound cake. Oh, like a 7-Up cake? No, 7-pound. It's just gigantic? Oh, literally 7-pound. Yeah, it's because it's so dense. Is it 7 pounds just of butter or is 7 pounds of everything? No, like it's the butter and the sugar. And it's not actually 7 pounds. I think that's just the lore because it's so— Oh, it'll make you gain 7 pounds? Maybe, like a piece. But oh, oh my God. Now I'm thinking about it and I'm going to text my mom and be like, Like, can you make one of these in the next month, please? And it would be really fun to actually turn that into a strawberry shortcake.

25:13Like, instead of having the shortcake as the base, having the seven pound cake as the base. Yes. That's what I like for your heads up. Yeah, thank you. I love that. Shalia, while we have you on the mic, I want to know what you would serve James Baldwin if he came over for dinner. So, I don't know exactly which street he grew up on, but I know he spent, like, the Schomburg on 135th was his local library. And that's around my block. So I know we lived in the same area. So like if I had him at home, it would be like a little bit of a homecoming. Yes. So I think it would be fun to serve him. Oh, I know exactly what I would serve him.

25:49So we were talking to Dr. Harris and one of the things that she really wanted to impress upon us was that although he came from this culture of black food ways, there's so much more than just soul food that counts as black food ways because there's regionality and etc. I like have been playing around a little bit at home with like certain very traditional foods, but trying to do them in like new ways. so for a new year's party this year I made hop and john which is like your collard greens black eyed peas and then pork of some kind but I put them into like an arancini ball and it was really really really good and there was like a remoulade sauce with it and it was fantastic and it was a hit at said new year's party I went to and I think that he would like it i think it would make him happy shalia that's almost a gentrification of the hop and john except like i think i'm allowed i know i know it's because you did it but now other that's going to end up on the food network okay listeners of this podcast that's shalia's idea alone do not take it oh that's if anyone else does it it will be bad anyone else does it it'll be bad only shalia can do it so it's your like chopped like final dish you know i think it is i think it might be game changer so i love that you would be taking baldwin to harlem also i'm curious like obviously it's changed a lot since he lived there where would you where would you take him after dinner if you were gonna have a drink or see the neighborhood i think i would take him to this place called sugar monk which is like i think it's between 124th and 125th i haven't been there in a minute um and frederick douglas and it's like this cute little speakeasy where it's like you literally go in one of the like um like metal doors and like sometimes it's open sometimes it's not sometimes you have to knock but they're this like really wonderful refined cocktail bar and they do these like really artisanal drinks and they do jazz and the lights are low and it's like the whole like velvet couch situation it's like very small and intimate.

28:06Like there's a bar and like maybe there's like seating for like 15. Like it's from what I remember, it's really, really tiny. And I think it would just be a good vibe. Like I know we talked about he would like in restaurants, he would like go and like rent out a back room somewhere and just like hold court in these like really like intimate spaces and just have friends come through. And I think this is a place that he could easily do that at. Yeah, I love the sound of that. And you could also text your friends and say, guess who I'm at the bar with come through absolutely a selfie yeah a 0.5 selfie yeah really it has raised the ante right there oh I love that I love it yeah so we could keep fantasizing about this all day but this is a podcast so he said we must move forward yeah we're gonna keep it moving and to keep it moving at the end I want to play a little like rapid fire taste check with you so I'll give you some categories and you can just tell me the first answer that comes into your head, Cree.