446: Claire Saffitz & Andy Baraghani

24:35I knew that that wasn't right for my temperament and really how I wanted to spend my time. I'm someone who's like analytical and slow to process things. I like to take my time. And I just knew that that was not the fit for me. But they were still very understanding and sort of and like worked with me to. To sort of like accommodate that in a lot of ways, like I was anytime I was like, anytime you want me to do prep, I'm happy to do prep versus service. It was like I liked sort of being alone in the kitchen. like i remember one task they had me do was snapping the little triangular leaves off of the stalks of asparagus not peeling them but just those little like oh like the bark the little barky putting yes one by one from each stalk of asparagus i loved it i was like this is great i'll do this for five hours yeah um because i was at least i could kind of like go into a certain state of yeah it's like asmr vibe right yeah right um but all of that being said i did learn a lot about stress management and time management and a lot about sort of what like how I could produce good work under certain certain constraints.

25:48I mean, I think I basically just matured a lot as a person and as a as someone, you know, like a working person in that environment. Did you start writing recipes when you were in France? Did you have like this notebook was probably, you know, observations and recipes from the restaurant? But were you starting to think yourself like I could actually write new versions of XYZ? Not at that time. I had actually sort of begun to do that earlier. It was in the years right after college. I had about two years between finishing my bachelor's and going to culinary school. And it was really in that time that I started doing what was basically recipe development, but I didn't really know it at the time.

26:25I didn't have that like word to – I didn't have that way of describing it. I didn't know what it was. but I would think a lot about something that I wanted to make. And then I would do tons of research and I would look up, I would buy cookbooks or I would look online and I would sort of think about, okay, like the way this sounds, I like the way this looks, I'm going to, you know, and I would do a lot of sort of synthesizing of different recipes. And at the time it was like that, that was kind of, it was a version of recipe development. And then I really treated my time in Paris and culinary school as a way of just kind of like learning and absorbing and building skills.

27:01And then it was when I left culinary school and went to grad school that I started, picked it up again. And I was sort of using all of that foundational knowledge to then to really kind of create my own recipes. But you were studying culinary history in grad school and that's not cooking. So, I mean, it might be some cooking, but what were you, what kind of text were you diving into? Really fascinating this part of your career. I think it's less reported about you. Like we know about your recipes and your cool YouTube work, but you are a culinary historian or in training. I was going to say that's very generous.

27:35Your face is like, nah, this guy doesn't know what he's talking about. Well, no, I mean, I have a master's degree, so I went to— Oh, stop. Well, then you're a master's degree holder in culinary history. There you go. And it was like a one-year master's, which was in Canada. You're undermining this case I'm building about you, Claire. I mean, you said it, not me. I know. But thank you. So, yeah, so I went to I did a one year master's in the history department at McGill. And I went there because there was there was and still is a professor there named Brian Cowan, who did really and does really interesting research around food and kind of the intellectual history of food of the early modern era.

28:12So I was like, I'm really into this. I had just come from a year in France where I was so interested in this question of how French cuisine became codified the way that it did. because in culinary school, like you're going through this canon of recipes and the way that it's organized is so specific and so defined where it was like, okay, so here's your bechamel. And when you add, what is a Gruyere? You make a Mornay. And then when you add mustard, you know, it's like everything has these, you could sort of chart this very like hierarchical. They're the mother sauces. They call them that. Right.

28:46Right. And the, you know, I think French cuisine is so interesting in that you add one ingredient and it becomes something else. You know, it has a different name. And so I really had these questions around how do cuisines become codified and how did these things start and what is the history behind this? So that's what I studied at McGill. And it was so great because there are so many interesting texts that are also in the public domain. So you can go into Google Books and you can find, you know, the earliest cookbooks from the early modern era, from the 16 and 1700s that really came out of like household how-to manuals.

29:24And a lot of them were written by kind of the first wave of like professionalized chefs who cooked for big, you know, noble houses or royal families. And were these books for other chefs to learn how to cook for, you know, other fancy noble families and royalty. And they're just fascinating texts. I have a question. So these earliest texts, I've always wondered this, Are they are these texts teaching people to cook for scale and for commerce or are they like more artistic endeavors like a Da Vinci, you know, had like, you know, his was very like much it was science and art blending. So was there like an artistic kind of moment for these earliest texts?

30:05Not really. I mean, they were not written for the general population, the earliest ones. It was really like written for other professional chefs cooking for wealthy families or houses or that kind of thing. So it was very practical. It was like here is how you create a banquet for 100 people. Here is how you, you know, course these dishes. Here is how you present these dishes. It was very much like practical, a practical guide for a very high level of skilled professional chef, you know, who are all male, of course. And so it was really about the kind of professionalization of cooking and the kinds of like political and social statements that food would make in these politicized settings, which were these like, you know, sort of royal banquets and that kind of thing.

30:51Wow. So, I mean, the professional culinary terminology comes from like the army, right? That's like the whole like the military. Right. And so like were these like war plans essentially? or is that like oversimplifying i think i'm oversimplifying no i don't it's a it's a question i don't really know the answer to but i just it makes me think of certain um like certain passages or parts of certain texts i remember and i would have to look up which book this is from and um and the year and the author but i remember a text i think it was written in english it was mostly they were written in english and french um because there was this amazing cultural exchange between um england and france um which is such an it was just what i focused on um and it was a description of a banquet where and i remember i started like one of the papers that i wrote in grad school started with this um excerpt from this book but it was about like you would create a a like a sculpture of a horse out of i don't even remember what material something edible and you would fill it with claret or like burgundy red wine and then you would have the ladies at the banquet like throw arrows into it to like puncture it and then it would so the horse would sort of like bleed wine and then you would fill eggs with rose water and they would throw it at the table so that it would like perfume everything and then you would bake i don't remember if this is the same passage but it told you how to bake pies and then fill them with live frogs and birds so that you could open them up at the banquet and then they would like jump out so this is like performance art it's like meredith monk performing you know some kind of cooking piece.

32:25Right. And it was, but there's a political statement behind it, which is like, I have the money and influence and power to create these lavish sort of like, you know, like performances and invite people to my house, you know, so it was really sort of about social status. And showing that I can actually do this absurd thing. It reminds me of the show The Great. Do you watch that at all? No, I heard it's good. It's really good. I feel like The Great mixed with a food theme is like, you got to write that TV show. Oh my gosh. Well, I want to ask you a little bit more about the book because like a little behind the scenes-y, but I think our listeners will enjoy this.

33:01Like you shot most of your recipes. Like there are photos for most, if not all. That is insane for a baking book or a dessert book to have so many photos. What was the photo shoot like? Yes. The photo shoot is a long process. And it was very important to me that every recipe does have a photo. Oh, so it's legit. Yeah. Yeah. And that was, I was very upfront with my editor and publisher about that was what I wanted for the book because photos are so important. If I'm looking at a cookbook and I don't see a photo for the recipe, I'm left with so many questions. I don't really, I'm just not enticed to make it.

33:41You know, I'm much more likely to make a recipe where I see a photo of how it turns out. And there's also so much like non-textual communication that happens between a photo and the reader. It's how we learn different styles. We need a photo. Right. I need a photo. You just sort of know like it informs so much of your making of the recipe when you see the final result. So that was really important to me. But of course it means like an epic amount of work. So I really can't take credit for it. I have to – I mean the credit is all to the photographer and prop stylist and food stylist that worked so hard.

34:16So Tina Huang was the food stylist and she had two assistants, Veronica and Elisa, who were amazing. And there is an incredible amount of organization and time that goes into producing all the recipes. And then I had Nicole Louie doing props. And like this is a book with – unlike dessert person, this is a book with a lot of individually plated desserts. Yes. Things that are like, you know, panna cotta's that are created individually or like coops filled with pudding. They're scapes. I mean they're very prop styled in like a good way and like in a cool way. Yeah. So like poor Nicole. I mean she sourced so many individual glasses to, you know, to plate everything.

34:58And to create these really nice sort of like tableau and scenes. And then I had a really ambitious idea for chapter openers, which is just that, you know, that photo at the beginning of every chapter where we took all the like many of the recipes from each chapter and put them in sort of this abundant like banquety scene kind of informed by like the, you know, my love of banquets from back from grad school. Classic James Beard book style, like having like an escape, like a big cornucopia. Right. Well, and I wanted the book to be really, really celebratory. And I wanted it to be a book that was less about solo time in the kitchen and more about sharing the end result with people.

35:34So that led to these, you know, big, abundant photos. So the team and then Jenny Huang, the photographer, like just a team that worked together so diligently and so hard for a very sustained amount of time. Yeah, I wonder. So are you making these desserts ahead of time and bringing them to set and shooting? Because I mean, are you baking like do you have multiple ovens and you're not really ovens, but multiple like cooking apparatus and like making it there? Yeah. I mean, a big part of the production of it is like fridge and freezer space. Definitely. And oven space. These are the kind of more like rate limiting factors.

36:10I mean, Tina and her team did everything. Like I was I was in the middle of copy edits. I told myself after dessert person, I was like, I am I am doing the second book so differently. I am like getting everything in early. I am. So by the time the photo shoot comes around, I can like be, you know, in the kitchen with the team and helping. I was like, that was so not what happened. Yeah. Of course. Like I was literally in the middle of copy edits, still like writing bits and was on set with my computer, you know. Oh, I know that feeling. It is. And like making edits as the dishes are being plated.

36:42Yeah. I mean, it's actually the kind of way you should be doing a cookbook because it should be accurate. Right. You know what I mean? Right. It does make it dynamic in a way that is actually like and leads to, I think, like good, better work in a lot of ways. Poor Tina had to hear me being like, hey, Tina, can you change that? Like the recipe says this, but like let's, you know, do it this way. It must have been really fun at the end of the day to decide who gets what, right? Yes. No. But I think with Tina and her team is like they're so used to all the food. We just gave a lot of it away. That's what I mean, like for like the people in the studio or like the people on the street who happened to walk by.

37:20There was a – the studio had like a second studio space next door where we would give – we'd be like, hey, do you want like four pies, you know, at the end of the day? Twist my arm again. All right. But it was a solid two weeks of shooting. Oh, wow. Not totally consecutive. We would have a break here and there. I think we did a week on, a week off, and then a week back on, something like that. But it was a lot of days in the studio. It really shows in the work though. It's a beautiful book and I love the style. the design too. I want to ask you a few other things. We live kind of close to each other in the Hudson Valley.

37:49You're up there a bit. I live up there full time. What's that like? What's it been like? My question about living in the Hudson Valley, a little more rural than New York, has it changed the way you cook at all? I know. It's so funny to learn that we're neighbors. I know we are. We're literally about 20, 30 minutes. I know. We should meet at the farmer's market. I still haven't been. Goshen Farmer's Market on Fridays. It runs until the end of October through May, through October. It is so good. S &O is there, which is a great farm. Yeah. They're like one of my favorites. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's so cool to be in the Hudson Valley and to realize that these farms that you had been, where you'd have been visiting their farm stand at the Union Square, you know, Green Market or your local Green Market, like there's a real place.

38:32Yeah. They're like down the road. Yeah. Where that food is. Right. So that part has been so great. I love, we're in an area with so many farms that produces so much food, which I love. So we have near our cabin, about a mile and a half away, is a farm that, you know, they have like a farm stand in the town, but also just on the property, like a little hut where you can go and like leave the money in a box or Venmo and stocked with all the stuff that they're producing. So like I love that aspect of the lifestyle. And there's a dairy farm nearby and a place that raises Berkshire pigs. Oh, cool. And you can go and buy pork.

39:08I'll give you the name of it. It's great. Definitely swap notes. Oh, it's awesome. Like, it's just I love being able to cook that way. So it has helped me, I think, get closer to the way that I want to be cooking all the time, which is just kind of driven by the products that are available and that are local. And so that part is such an incredible pleasure about living in that area. Cool. Well said. Thank you for sharing because I think I agree with you. It's definitely nice to have a farm down the street. And it definitely poses some challenges because availability is certainly limited. Our grocery stores are a little different than Manhattan.

39:44But yeah, I feel very lucky. Right. I can't skip this question about a recipe. I was going to skip it, but I just remembered. Okay, so you have a hot chocolate recipe, which, okay, can we get to the city bakery level? Or do you like city bakery hot chocolate? I just generally miss city bakery. Yeah. Can we talk about that? Yeah. I mean, like an institution that's no longer with us, and I'm very sad about it. The cookies and like the Brussels sprouts. Like they were doing Brussels sprouts and bacon like in 96. Yeah. Which seems funny to say out loud, but like it was early. Right. Right. And the – was it the pretzel croissant that they were famous for?

40:23The brownie, which was like – you know, it was like any place in New York that makes it onto an episode of Sex and the City is pretty iconic. For sure. So, yes, I'm sad that it's no longer with us. I do remember City Bakery hot chocolate. My general complaint with hot chocolate is that it's so rich I can't really drink more than a couple sips of it. So I think the like City Bakery hot chocolate is amazing, but it's like a great thing to split with someone. Yeah. It's like, you know, even drinking eight ounces of it is a lot. Was my move. I mean, like that was really, really rich, but wow. Yeah.

40:55Like the feeling you get after eight ounces of City Bakery hot chocolate, it's like I don't do drugs, but that's kind of what I'm thinking. But anyways, continue. Right. Right. Well, I think what's, you know, when you're at like a place with the big espresso machine and the steam wand, like you're getting something really where you're, it's bringing out so many of the, like so many flavors of the chocolate and the milk. So I think you can get something like it at home. I don't know what they were. They probably had like a chocolate base or something or syrup that they were then like adding the steam milk to or something like that.

41:26But so in the book, you're just kind of combining everything on the stove. And it's a mixture of, I can't, I'm trying to remember. I think it's just unsweetened chocolate that you're like melting into milk. And, but there's also like lots of options. It's like, do you want to make it vegan and do coconut milk? Or if you want to make it richer, you can throw in half and half. Or, you know, if you want to make it less rich, which actually helps you taste more of the chocolate, you could do, you know, you could do water if you wanted to or do half and half. so um but the unsweetened chocolate actually was inspired by this place that i would go when i was in paris called um it's like cafe viennoise or something like that i say it in the book which was like a student hangout it was kind of it's like near the sorbonne and um had an extremely unsweet hot chocolate that's cool you do write about that in the book and i i want to know for me city bakery hot chocolate was about texture it was like like getting that melted bar velvety texture.

42:21Yeah. I think that comes from melted chocolate, not cocoa. So that's what you get in the book. And if you don't want it to be so bitter, you could just use like a nice semi-sweet chocolate. Good. I mean, I love that this really represents this new book, which is like hot chocolate. Like it was not in the first book. It is here now. I love it. So many great recipes. I encourage all listeners to check out the book. A few more questions. I asked Molly Baz. I just had her on like a few weeks ago. What's it like not having all your friends around like like ba was about friendship there was a lot of really obviously you were like tight with you know many of your colleagues and do you miss that and having an office and having like a group think and having a test kitchen which you're famous for i i don't miss the office yeah at all to be honest um i'm a very very happy freelancer working from home Yeah.

43:14Very happy. I think I was never really I don't think I was really like constituted for it, actually. Yeah. You just went in because you had to. I didn't know any different. Yeah. But in retrospect, I'm not that good at like getting places on time and like showing up when I'm supposed to. I really like to be on my own schedule. But of course, I miss the collaboration. I miss having people taste my food whose opinions I trust and value and people who have great palates and have ideas or different perspectives to offer. I developed so much of this book by myself, like truly alone, because at the time I was developing the recipes, we had no kitchen in our house upstate.

43:59It was this little cabin that we bought, and the first thing we did was rip out the kitchen because it was really falling apart. And at first we were like, okay, we can manage. And then it became very clear, like, we cannot, this kitchen has to go. So my husband was upstate a lot of the time, like, managing a lot of the fixing up of the house that we were doing. And then I was in the city because I needed that kitchen space and I needed things just to be easy and, like, accessible. And I was alone a lot of the time. And my husband is my main taste tester because he's, like— He's a chef. Former chef, like just really like the only person's opinion that I really care that much about.

44:38Yeah. That's love right there. Love that. Yeah. Yeah. And I just want him to say that he thinks everything is amazing, which he doesn't say. Yeah. Yeah. But he's very honest. Yeah. So I didn't even have him. And I'm fortunate that I have great neighbors that are like, but they're just so enthusiastic about everything. So Claire, what kind of media do you actually, what do you like doing? I do love producing all the YouTube content. for a lot of reasons. One, my crew that I work with were just like good friends and people who are amazing at their job, Cal and Vinny. Vince Cross was someone I worked with at BA for many years.

45:13And I called him in, you know, summer 2020 and was like thinking of starting YouTube. Like, you know, the book, I had the book coming out. And he's like, are you interested? And he's been the best partner in the whole thing ever. And Cal, his production partner, who's become also like a great friend. and lives in Connecticut and, like, comes by all the time, you know, just to, like, hang out and help us. He's a really knowledgeable gardener, and so he's helped us. He gave us our first block of chickens. Like, it's been very supportive in our transition. You have a real chicken thing happening.

45:45I know. There's been lots of chicken drama. Beautiful. Oh, did you have a coyote or a bird? We had a bear incident. Wait. Like, a full-fledged black bear. It was bad. Did they make it? Any of the guys? No. We had two separate coops at the time. One was total loss. Yeah. It was really bad. But the other hens were fine. I mean, probably traumatized, but like fine. Traumatized. It is. We've had neighbors who've lost entire coops from hawks and from birds. And it's very disturbing what you find. Yeah. It's sad. You have to sort of like develop a certain relationship with loss when you have chickens because we have just so many predators and we work so hard to protect them.

46:29but it's, you know, there's some inevitability there. But YouTube, so I just have fun doing it because it's so, it's just a great, like collaborative atmosphere and it's from my house and it's very, like, I don't feel like I, there is no performance in it. I don't have to feel like I am inhabiting any other kind of like persona or lifestyle than what I'm doing. and I have collaborators who just get that. And so it feels very natural. So it's just fun. Like we have a fun time together. And then the other aspect of it that I really like is that it's so teaching focused. That's really what I wanna be doing.

47:12Like I'm not creating, I don't feel like I'm trying to create entertainment. I'm not, you know, again, I'm not performing. I'm just using it as a medium for teaching, which is the thing that I think I'm most passionate about. It really comes out in the work that you love to teach. I think that that's like your fans and your colleagues, people watching you and YouTube are getting a lot of information. And it doesn't feel like you're doing some kind of stunt, which I respect that. And I love it. It's why we love it, actually. Yeah. The point to me is not to impress anybody with like look at my skills, like look at what I've created.

47:47The point is to share knowledge. And I've spent like an extraordinary amount of time thinking about the intricacies of how does curd thicken and like how, you know, how do you know when a cake is done and all these things. And I and I think it's so interesting. And I really just get excited to tell people like, I thought a lot about this and like, here's this cool thing I noticed. And here's how you can, you know, like, you know, be aware of it in your be a better baker, be a better cook. And that's that's cool. I mean, it feels like more of the ATK Milk Street vibe than like TikTok. Right. Not on TikTok.

48:21No. I anticipated a question. I am not on TikTok. You anticipated cut it off and shut it down. I love that. I am not on TikTok. Claire, we ask all guests on the Taste podcast, if you could write a dream cookbook or food culture book without the burden of time, meaning you have no deadline, or the burden of budget, meaning you have all the money in the world, what would that book be? I think I would write a book about, and this is book, versions of this have been written before, but I think I would do like a super deep dive, kind of bringing in a lot of my culinary history and knowledge on wheat and flour.

49:00because when I'm baking, I really think about how miraculous it is. There is this thing that can make gluten that can create everything from a baguette to sourdough to croissant to hand-pulled noodles. Noodles, yeah. And it is truly miraculous, and we owe so much of our food and diet to this thing called wheat, and it's sort of poorly understood. And the more that I've gotten into sourdough baking, the more I really can appreciate and really like truly realize how much of a fresh product it is or it should be. And we're so used to just seeing it as this like powdery white stuff that sits on our shelf, you know, almost indefinitely.

49:46Right. And it's kind of just like the key to everything. It's well articulated. It's also demonized by many sectors of culture in publishing, in pop culture. and certainly we're aware of insensitivities and there are real diseases, but also there's some real junk bullshit science out there about it too. Right, yeah. I mean, I kind of laugh when I see things that are labeled gluten-free that are like, it'll be like cornstarch and a big label gluten-free. Like tortilla chips. Right. And I don't understand, again, what you said, like obviously notwithstanding like people with celiac and real medical conditions that can't tolerate it, But it's not I'm like, it's not an inherently bad thing.

50:29And in fact, it's the opposite. It is this incredible substance that is capable of so much. And like, I just like to celebrate that. Absolutely. I look forward to reading that book. Thank you. It'll be great. Claire Saffitz, thank you for joining the Taze podcast. My pleasure. Thank you for having me.

50:54Andy Baraghani, welcome to This Is Taste. How the hell are you, man? I'm doing great on this Tuesday morning. We had such a cool morning. We went over to Michael's, had some breakfast. Michael's in the building. I mean, for people who, for listeners who don't know, Michael's is a iconic restaurant in Midtown. it's a place to definitely to be seen you'll have a lot of well I think it was a mixed maybe a mixed crowd this morning but mostly mostly businessmen it was definitely guys who work at Jeffries talking about the Guggenheim being a little too narrow in scope which is hilarious and Michael McCarty was touching tables and I loved catching up with you there I hadn't seen you in a little while you have to get him on the podcast oh we're building and figuring it out I mean, we're, we've been, we're going to email, we've been emailing.

51:43I think by the time this airs, we will have recorded with Michael. I'm, I'm very hopeful. I want to talk to you. I haven't caught up with you face to face in a while and, and like got a lot to cover. A lot to cover. You won a James Beard award. You're working on some new projects. You're, you're just around and, but also not around because you're kind of private. I, I, I am. Well, I am maybe, if anybody asks me a question, I most likely will answer it. You're a human being and a very nice person. But I'm not showcasing maybe every aspect of my life. But no, there's been, I'll give some big updates.

52:23I did win a James Beard Award last June. I was terribly emotional and cried. I think there's a video out there somewhere. That was in the room. It was amazing. It was a beautiful speech you gave. Thank you. I'm engaged. so I am getting married. I feel like I haven't said that out and people have been asking like, oh, how are you and your boyfriend? I'm like, well, he's technically, not technically, he's my fiance now. West Coast, East Coast wedding. Oh, New York City wedding. Oh. We are doing a city wedding. What time of year? April. Oh, it's shit. We're recording this in the last day of January so yeah.

53:01Yeah, it's coming up. We have a lot of the pieces set and figured out And I have a very, very big family and he has a smaller family, but we're all coming together. And I'm hoping my Persian family will be gentle and won't dominate too much. You guys have editorial juice. Yes. You're in the business. Where's the exclusive going? You got it. You got it. I'm not going to say. But you're confirming there is an exclusive wedding. There possibly will be more information out there. I love it. I'm just teasing you. I'm teasing. I'm excited about the food. Some friends of mine that you know, Jeremiah and Fabian, will be doing the food.

53:43So I'm very happy. And they're just going to be opening Contra again pretty soon. My No Bar Contra. The new space, yeah. We're always opening up something, those two. I love that you hired those guys. They're a wonderful connection to you. Yeah, I've been lucky to know them for so long, 10 plus years now. And I wrote about Wild Air. I've done three pop-ups with them at their restaurants. It's a family. It feels like a vibe like that. Speaking of restaurants, I'd like you to get a sense. Where are you going right now? You're in New York. You live in New York. You're traveling a lot as well. What's exciting your restaurant-wise?

54:16Okay, so I've been eating out a lot in the city. Just recently, I went to Bar Miller. So that is a new restaurant from the Rosella team. And it was amazing. It was, I think, like, I don't typically go for anything that's 18 courses or anything like that. But this was just the most incredible omakase that I've had that I could remember. I mean, they really did an incredible job. Beautiful space designed by Anna Polonsky. Oh, wonderful. Oh, great. Yeah. And no, I mean, there were so many delicious dishes. I mean, I just to mention a few of them, there was a hand roll made with toro and chopped, I think, white kimchi.

55:08That was so delicious. a hand roll with main uni exo sauce that they made in house and trout roe and chisoe. Wow. That's a lot going on. A lot going on. I love that. And you know what? A lot going on. And it was definitely like a bigger hand roll, but it was so delicious. And then they had a corn ice cream that was, I mean, just it was perfectly tempered. It was like just gradually melting and topped with caviar. And it was this perfect balance. This sounds. That shiso or perilla uni roe dish reminds me, there was that place down on Hudson Street that Bourdain loved. That was a Japanese. Yes. Do you remember the name of that place?

55:57That was like one of the signatures. The uni and XO. Yeah. Yeah. Because I missed that place. I wish I remembered the name. But it's this bar Miller. it's lining up to be one of the big restaurants of the year. Yes, for sure. I went, so I went there. I went to Tolo, had a delicious meal there. I've been to, I mean, some, also I'm just going to a lot of places that aren't necessarily new. I go to Aggie's counter a lot. I've been to kind of the, the, the, this wave of Neo French bistro of sorts, the, the, the Claude's. Well, there's one called Claude. Claude's the Claude wannabe. We'll call it that.

56:42Libertine. I've been to Superiority Burger multiple times. Love it there. Which I was just there last week. And Brooks is like, there's tables available. He's obviously there and very gracious. But listen, go there. There's tables available. January might be a little slow for them, which is odd to me. So that idea that you can't get into Superiority, that's untrue. Go to the Superiority. Definitely go. it will be such a memorable meal I've also been going to this was back in November I have this tradition to kind of treat myself on my birthday I went to Sushi Yasuda which isn't that far from here and I went to Love in Madison Park because I hadn't tried the new iteration or newish I guess and had an amazing plant based menu and it was incredible It was unbelievable.

57:38I had been to a handful of really, you know, let's say fancy restaurants and that one blew me away. Amazing. Sailor, have you been there? Oh, yes. I almost forgot. Sailor seems like a lot of people are going there. I don't even know what's wrong with me. But I went to Sailor last week. And I mean, for anybody who comes from the food world and anybody who just loves food or lives in New York, you must be familiar with April Bloomfield and her food. and I don't know about you, but I was very much excited to hear that, you know, she was coming back to the city and to work on it with Gabe Stolman.

58:24And I went and, I mean, I had a very, very delicious meal. It's a tight space too. It's intimate. And, you know, I was a huge fan of the Breslin when she was, you know, doing special dinners there. And I really loved her cooking there. And it sounds like it's definitely a return to form at Sailor. Oh, for sure. I mean, even the descriptions on the menu The name of the dishes are so understated and there's one dish called green toast and it comes out and you can't see that it's exactly cut for you on a diagonal but it's kind of perfectly doused in this green sauce made with I don't know how many herbs.

59:07And you can taste the kind of tarragon and the parsley and then pretty much fully covered with finely grated, almost feathery Parmesan. And the bread is obviously has a perfectly charred but cushiony interior. And I had the profiteroles as a dessert. And I don't have the biggest sweet tooth, but I'll always have like a dessert. And it was profiteroles with salted caramel sauce. and wonderful classic uh you know end of end of meal yeah i love a profiterole i fucking i always miss i love a profiterole and i think it's we can say a profit roll we can pray profit rolls too no um let me ask you i had you on two years ago uh right around the time the cook you want to be was published and i just want to ask you andy it's been two years it hasn't been two years It's been, it's been, well, actually.

1:00:03Because we're recording this in February. Actually, you know, it's, it's, it's all, it's almost going to be two years. A year and 10 months. Yes, yes. I am, I am rounding up. I'm thinking seasons. Why? I think that's why I'm thinking it's an, it was in April. May 24th. It was, it was a late, it was later. Okay. All right. We'll be fair. It was, it was a year and nine months ago. But anyways, we had you on the podcast in April and I want to get a sense. How have you, you changed over this time as a cook. Yeah. Have I changed as a cook? Absolutely. I think, you know, with my first book, it was so important for me to think about, I mean, so many different aspects, but think about the reader and the home cook and really empowering the home cook.

1:00:45and so really passing the kind of fundamental lessons that I've learned throughout my life as a cook. So while I very much use those techniques and those ingredients to this day, I think a big part of that book and who I am as a cook, as a human, is to continue to evolve. So I like to think that I definitely have evolved and changed as a cook and especially because like I'm writing another book. So I wouldn't want to give the same things and provide the same tricks. There's definitely going to be new information, new technique, and obviously new recipes. It's a good segue into this. I was kind of dancing around that, but you are working on a new book and it will come out.

1:01:28We won't, you know, we won't hold you to any kind of timeframe because that's just rude. I don't need to like get on you for like a deadline. But like, what are you thinking about in this early phase about how this cookbook will be articulated into the public? Yes. So I think, you know, the first book was, I think with any kind of creative endeavor, especially with like your very first book, it took so much out of me. And I think part of it is because it was so personal. You know, I put so many of my memories and stories in that book. I think for the next book, I knew I wanted to write a book that really touched on the idea of comfort, the idea of nostalgia and what that means to me as a cook and as an individual.

1:02:13What does it mean to home cooks in this country? So I really want to kind of – my next book will be more about comfort food and what that means in America. So I'll give you that's the kind of premise I'll say. It's really, really smart. And I think you're so articulate that comfort food is not a monolith. I mean, we could definitely look at like foodnetwork.com, putting comfort food, and you're going to get a very specific thing. But that's not how food is right now. And for you, when you're looking at a TOC, and I imagine you've like thought of TOC. Oh, yeah. Oh, no, I have a TOC. You got the TOC.

1:02:50All right. A little industry jargon that's table of contents. When you write cookbooks, you start with kind of a framing of your recipe list. So for our audience, just for a little teaser, like what are some of the, a couple of the comforting dishes that you're thinking about? Oh, gosh, should I pull out my... Let's get out the Google box. I'll say this. Something that I also want to say is that I feel very fortunate and grateful that people, you know, trust me and they turn to me for my writing, my recipes, past videos. and I think while people might look at me as maybe an authority figure in food, I never have held myself to that.

1:03:28And so when I wrote my first book and with the second book, I'm always more interested in the exploration of an idea rather than providing a specific answer. You know, I want, that's always more interesting. I want people to be curious. That's always the kind of word I go back to. So the idea of comfort, some comfort. Yeah, right. I'm like, I'll tell you, this is a teaser. So these names, these ideas. Listener, like we're literally going to the Google Docs right now. Yeah, we're going to the Google Docs. Which is the best. I mean, I'm sure you look at this often because that is the best way to think about a cookbook is having this recipe list in front of you.

1:04:05And I'll say this. Any recipe developers there, you be careful. Don't be taking this. So only be naming a few. Yeah, name a few. No spoilers. I think I'm going to give you some really specific ones. Yes. A no flip cauliflower tortilla espanol. Okay. It's very specific. So we're going to start with no. I mean, you've got service. You've got tip and hack. You've got a brand new way of thinking about a classic. You're hitting like these marks with this one. I think, let's see which ones do I want to. There's some that you're just like I ain't get it I know. I really can't. I just don't want to give.

1:04:46The color green is throughout your cooking. There's a green is very much. I was like, actually blue. A lot of green. A lot of green. Blue food. There's a short bourbon onion ragu paired with something I won't say. Possibly a cheddar tomato tart. A potato coconut curry. Yeah. So I like your saying, which your first book, You're not married to a pantry or a flavor profile. You're going for it. No, no, no, no. And I think with my food, it's not Mediterranean. It's not Persian. It's not Southeast Asian. I am first generation Iranian-American and grew up eating that food. And those flavors have very much kind of come into my recipes.

1:05:35But at the same time, I've worked at very specific restaurants that are certainly don't have those those flavors and techniques. And I eat out a lot and go to restaurants that also don't fall under that those categories. So for me, it's about what I'm inspired by and and making sure that with each recipe, it's not just about developing a recipe that works and tastes good, but also that will really kind of provide those those lessons that I think are so important. I can't I cannot wait. check this space we'll definitely be keeping up with the release schedule lasagna will be on there yeah it's not your not a lasagna bolognese per se because I I kind of didn't I did that it's been done yeah people have done that I did that a few years ago are we doing homemade sheets uh there will be a pasta section for sure I mean there will be a pasta chapter we love making pasta obviously it's smart plenty of Persian comfort food too that will be kind of I can't wait throughout let's talk about your restaurant career.

1:06:34I mean, I definitely, when you bring up restaurants, I want to revisit you working at Chez Panisse in high school, which is remarkable in many ways. You helped me get a reservation there to the cafe. So thank you, Andy, for making that intro. And I got to have a wonderful meal there and I shared in a previous episode. What are they teaching you in the kitchen when you're 17 years old at Chez Panisse? Are you seeing things for the first time? Are your co-workers you know slipping you advice or stronger things i mean oh i really have to go back uh to wow you know 15 15 plus years uh i will say i've said this before shape anise was um that was that was my education that was my it provided a foundational uh education when it came to um cooking and and and beyond really i mean i i remember so well um the beginning it was like how to how to how to prep an onion uh so for the for the line cooks to be able to slice or dice and how to peel and how many layers to remove and um uh how much of the root and you should cut not too much so it doesn't fall apart uh to how to prep mirepoix and how far to cook it and how it shouldn't really have too much color too much color at all but it should still be very very soft um what are the elements that will go into a braise um how to make a salsa verde and variations on that how to toast spices how to crush olives and pit them and to kind of retain its kind of craggly shape how to make pasta how to cook rice so you can see every kind of grain and uh there's they stay fluffy and don't stick together you want to see every grain of rice in the bowl yes you don't want to see any kind of like overlap right how to uh bloom spices um it's really how to season meat how to break down a chicken how to trim the fat just enough fat from from duck legs and duck breasts.

1:08:47I mean, it was truly the greatest education and such a supportive group of people. And I feel very, very lucky because I was so young and I still haven't been able to sustain so many of the friendships and relationships from that place. And Cal was there, Peter Nell? Oh, yeah. Cal was there. I saw Cal maybe, I think it was last spring. It was for Tamar Adler's new book. I think it was last spring. Yeah, he was on the podcast around that time. I had a great episode with Cal linked in the show notes. Yeah, he's a terrific thinker and he's maybe opening something in New Jersey. Oh, no, he is. Yeah.

1:09:31He is. He told me a year ago, but he was working on a cool concept in New Jersey. He moved to New Jersey. I'm so excited. I mean, he's so brilliant and thoughtful. And it was great to see him. And I went back to Shipney's actually for the New Year. I had a New Year's dinner there. I wasn't planning on it. But, of course, I'm in Berkeley with the fam for the holidays and bumped into the general manager there, Varun. And he's like, what are you doing? Do you want to come to the restaurant? I'm like, no, it's so last minute. He's like, well, you know. No pull. We can manage. and I said well you know I'd love to come actually for New Year's I wanted a low-key New Year's and just have like a nice dinner and I went and Alice was there she's always there for New Year's and oh wow saw her and beautiful she she gently said like you know to put me to work for for something she's working on next October so I'm like hi yes tell me when I fully way to like capture the spirit of Alice Waters and how she she stays in the game it's it's like it's like a level of like It's not operator, that's a little rude, but she's definitely in the mix with her people, but in a generous way too.

1:10:40And the truth is, I mean, there are people in my life who I've been lucky to work with or meet. And if they ask me a favor or need me to support them in some way, without a doubt, you tell me when and I'm lucky. It's a wonderful trait and attribute of folks who work in our industry and the restaurant industry and the media industry. I'll say cookbook media, not all media, generosity of spirit. Yes. Another restaurant question. You went to Le Bernardin with the hosts of How Long Gone, Jason Stewart and Chris Black. And I ask about this dinner. I don't know them. You don't know them. They were just faking it.

1:11:20Exactly. But it's funny. On their show, they mentioned they were at Le Bernardin. And I got them into Chez Panisse too. Oh, I know. You're like their absolute bat phone plug for great restaurants. But food is definitely a theme on that show. and Jason writes a great column for Taste. And then Chris is kind of like not into food, but he is sneaky. What's the meal like at La Bernadette and the three of you? I just was like, this would be a pretty fun little party. Well, I had been, and I had been lucky to have been there a while back. And I asked them they were going to be in town. I said, like, you know, what restaurant do you want to go to?

1:11:55And Jason said, like, oof, I would like to go to La Bernadette. I said, okay, great. and then also this also I Mel Ottenberg who's the editor-in-chief of interview reached out to me and said like we're we're featuring we're doing a shoot and with Eric Repair for his new book like we'd love for you to interview him so I interviewed Eric all right and this so I reached out to his team I'm like is there any way we can we can we can come to the restaurant and so we went we had a meal of course um chris went uh the vegetarian route uh no judgment i mean huh well yes vegetarian road or veg well no no it's a it was all fish yeah so he didn't he went vegetarian i mean yeah uh he may be a little judgment maybe a little bit but i love chris so yeah they're good people and uh i mean i always want that with them like the two of them i want to be i want just the the best dinners long dinners with the two of them because we can talk about i mean they are professional i mean that's what they do and um i just like to chime in and let them know when they're when when they're wrong i should say i love it it's like you're like the judge and like you have the bell and you're like the you're like the alex trebek of their the moderator moderator yeah it's fun and the food is pretty good i would imagine i mean Come on.

1:13:24It's legendary. I will say I was very excited to interview Eric Rupert. And I think Le Bernardin is one of those places in the world, obviously in New York, where there's nowhere like it. And there's no one really like Eric Rupert. that's the thing like he really went a specific route uh not just with the restaurant but just the fact that he really didn't decide to kind of take on all these different projects and open a bunch of different restaurants he's and he and he's there and it's amazing he was there when we were when we were dining yeah um and it's very very special yeah it's cool that you mentioned that i mean it really is he's at the temple he's the rabbi he's the yes he's like everything he's like there hanging out cooking working the line but he also lab tests all of his recipes in a sense that he's like really like in the like the the ideation of the of the dishes that are delivered every night it's a really fascinating approach and yeah he hasn't let celebrity like change the way he cooks it's true i mean the thing that i was reminded about la bernadine and i think like matt i could i'll say i imagine for both of us we've been lucky to eat at a lot of great restaurants very fortunate and with la bernadine well i've been to let's say you know four stars or mission start restaurants uh you don't have to think about anything at that restaurant i mean you are halfway through the butter that they give you this this delicious perfectly tempered butter it's like oh no that you're not they're not waiting until you finish the butter they are just swapping that out for a brand new butter oh yeah you can go through six of those butters and like the bread baskets coming around and you get three options usually like a hard roll focaccia and like some kind of grainy loafy slicey thing from my memory like two summers ago exactly and uh it is always like you want to fill up on bread there yeah you just want to do it kind of genius because like you know it's like a a very like exquisite expensive meal and luxurious meal and you're not leaving like you're not getting crushed no you're nourished but like maybe like a little under in some ways if you're like thinking about it for the cost so like yeah fill up on that fucking brand oh yeah for sure i want to ask you a little bit about i'm going to say the word food trends i i don't like you know what i mean but like i don't like to say it but you're you're out and about you're working on a cookbook you're working on other projects you're dining out a lot and i really want to get a sense about and i know you've thought about this, like what is happening right now that's really exciting you in this, like maybe a sea change in a restaurant culture, maybe food media, but we'll say restaurant culture.

1:16:09Well, I will say that I actually think it's a very exciting time in New York. You know, I think it's natural for New Yorkers for us to be a little bit kind of jaded or pessimistic. But I'd say there was a time pre-pandemic, you know, let's say for a couple of years, It was 2017 to, you know, before the pandemic where I'm like, I remember feeling like this does not feel exciting. There was like a repetitiveness happening. Not to say that it has entirely gone away. But right now, I mean, it was what was one of the many unfortunate things that happened because of the pandemic is the thousands of restaurants that closed in the city.

1:16:52and I'd say the one great thing that happened because of that it it allowed for this whole new crop of of talent of young chefs and kind of to rethink how they want to open up a space and if they even want to open up a space and maybe it's not a permanent brick or mortar sometimes it's I see more pop-ups than ever residencies and that are doing foods that you know New York is has always been unique in that we are able we really have a range of cuisines you can get all types of food but i think what's happening now is even uh even more highly highly regional cuisines which is great and i'm super excited about that um we obviously there's been a huge influx of like szechuanese food for many years now but now we're seeing more uh types of different regional um Chinese food.

1:17:49I think restaurants are just wanting to play more. People are getting a little bit more weird and want to... It's a high stakes game, but I think people are making that risk and going, meaning that you're not just doing populist cuisine, but you're actually staying true to your point of view. So there's like Chintan's group, like Unapologetic Foods, which just says it in the name. And it seems your statement is so true. It's that people are playful. People are going for dishes that maybe aren't going to hit every single person who comes in the door. Like I just went to Knox. Okay. And I had, you know, I had the, you know, the infamous soup or famous soup.

1:18:34And, you know, I didn't really like it. I won't order it again, but certainly they were cooking uncompromised food and I enjoy Filipino food in that way. I think it's cool to see there's like and there's like dozens of these examples in new york have you been to fox face natural so um i haven't and and it's really on i just saw that it was a beard semi-finalist and it's it's on the top of my list what's it like oh you know i i haven't been and it's one of those things where it's like uh you know i i i i get this way about um certain chefs restaurants where it's yeah it's where it's like i i'm like there's this air of a little mystery you know and i i'm I'm like, that's always more appealing.

1:19:13I mean, I love, there are restaurants that are big and there are big groups that I love and I go to. But I'm always interested in kind of the ones that are, I don't want to say quieter, but maybe just smaller. It's a smaller team. It's more intimate. It really feels like a family. But I really want to go. And I've gone in and I've tried to do day of, night of, like multiple times. And it hasn't happened. So I have to be a little bit more organized. Smash that Resi alert and just be ready to go. That's Dave Santos, right? Dave Santos. Lots of concepts he's run in the past decade in New York and very accomplished chef there.

1:19:50I think, I mean, I also think like with design, I think spaces are just becoming more fun. People want to have a good time. I don't think that has changed. I think people are just willing to change things up and put themselves in different situations and willing to stand up and sit down. I think the one thing that New Yorkers won't put up with is bad food. And I think there's better food than ever right now. And the margin of error is much lower. And it certainly is a high way or act with these restaurants doing their own thing. you went to Colonel Steve L's new place the founder of Chipotle I did I don't even think it's opening it was not even opening it was a friends and family I don't know him personally and I went and it was very interesting I mean I've never I'm very it's very interesting what they're doing it's so different than what I do but to see them make really delicious food.

1:21:00And, you know, the goal is that I think it's like a scalable operation. With using automation. Yes. I mean, there are people there, but there is definitely. Well, I hope so. There are a couple of people there from what I witnessed, but there's definitely a machine. A robotic arm that you see in like 1998 Ford, like plant videos, you know, making the cars with the arms. But it is, I mean, it's not a great comparison. Like it made me think of super, super technical fine dining restaurants, which you would never think to put like something like this where it's like maybe people don't like this term, but like kind of this fast casual model that's using technology and compared to like fine dining.

1:21:48But I think what can happen is like there's an exactness to both. And I have a lot of respect for that. that is not something that I necessarily want to do. I find beauty in the kind of irregularity and the kind of the mishaps. And I think those are the points where you can learn a lot in cooking. But for the people who can do that, I'm like, you know, that's amazing. It is amazing. You think about sweet green, you're literally hitting the button on your phone and you're walking to it and picking up in the wooden, you know, the rows of salads. And if it got to you from a human or got to you from robotic arm, maybe less material.

1:22:26Yes. As long as it's good. It's just very interesting to talk to a chef about the way a food can not be human. It seems freaky as fuck to me. I mean, I feel like I think actually throughout my book, The Cook You Want to Be, was like, I want people to use less tools. I want people to use less technology. I want people to use their hands more. I think it's, for me, it's a way to interact with the food and really have a better understanding of it. We cover a lot of founders' journeys and stories on here and a lot of grocery store items in NCPG. And Andy, are there any new products that you're cooking with from new founders and new products that you enjoy, that you want to give a little shout to?

1:23:12Because I think it's just an exciting time for new products right now. No, you're absolutely right. I mean, this is certainly not new, but I feel like I have to shut it up because I think I eat it five times a week. Fish Wife. Yeah. I mean, that's my lunch. Five times a week. A great product. Everything from like their smoked salmon or their smoked cod. Like I'm eating that with a little bit of mustard mayonnaise, lots of lemon juice or vinegar, some herbs. Yeah, it's my go-to. um where else um um i know you're sent stuff too no sorry i cut you off i'll let you no uh aplos i would say i've been uh aplos and um and gia you know my uh my i drink uh alcohol my partner my partner doesn't so uh it's it's good to kind of have something that isn't just like juice and sparkling water so we both take advantage of that um you know most nights most days and nights of the week.

1:24:14Yeah, so beverage is definitely a cool category. We covered it a lot. What about probiotic sodas? Are you into those? Puppy and Olipop? Well, there is one. It's not probiotic, though. And not new, but I think there's slowly people are becoming more aware of it. Something and nothing. Oh, I don't know that one. It's a great... I wouldn't even want it. Just sparkling water. Yeah. Yuzu sparkling water, something and nothing. Something, nothing? Something like that. Something like that. Or nothing like that. Well, you know what? I love to try it. I'm going to go down and I'm going to look at that brand.

1:24:53Thanks for sharing those products. I think it's cool to hear what you're cooking with. On This Is Taste, we asked guests about their discerning taste. So to close this interview, here's a little rapid fire, fast and furious taste check. Andy, are you ready? Somewhat anxious, but yes, please go ahead. Let's do this. The best fruit. Oh my God. I feel like you can't ask me that. Like, I feel like... Painful, I know. Painful.

1:25:17You know what? I'm going to be a little bit of a cheater. We're middle of winter. What's the best thing to eat, best fruit to eat in winter is citrus. So I'm going to say quichu, quichu, quichu citrus. Yeah, very special. If you don't know it, tiny, tiny, tiny, smaller than a golf ball size, quichu. tangerines um hard to find but you can order them um there's um a farm on in oh hi this is so not rapid fire but tangerine man dude tangerine man.com and you can order it and they're amazing yeah oh hi citrus season late gen into feb do you like you like pixies i love pixies pixies what about sumos love sumos yeah a little overrated i'm a sumo fan it's in the logo of our uh of our podcast here but i love sumos though no i do love sumos i love i love uh caracaras caracaras yeah um the worst vegetable green bell peppers like always i've i've said it for my whole life i mean yeah that it's just like i eat everything i'm not a picky eater at all and i will eat a green bell pepper but i just won't ever buy it and reds are okay though yeah sweetness of reds but you know how i mean this is like i don't like a raw bell pepper period but a red pepper when like really kind of charred and burnished and it becomes sweet and smoky and has like a nice jammy flesh.

1:26:46It's triggering when the Iron Chef host in Japan eats the bell pepper. I always feel a little like gag reflex hit me. I'm with you on that one. Why do you think green peppers made it onto pizza? It seems just, I don't understand. It was an era. I don't even think people do that anymore. I mean, that's a great question. It makes me think of like, like early nineties, eighties. I want to know. Green bell peppers on pizza. It was part of my childhood. We will, we'll, we'll dig into that on taste. The best dessert. Oh. And for someone who says like, I'm a dessert person. I am a dessert person. Well, I'll say generally it's like a fruit based dessert.

1:27:31I really love like a fruit tart. like just a really good any kind of fruit tart um a rhubarb tart um but at the same time like this is not a fruit dessert i love a milfwee yeah i love a flaky dessert i was gonna wonder about the tart the way the tart is presented and not like a crostata but more of a tart a tart yeah i i i generally want like a very kind of classic flaky dough like that's that's kind of my my my Achilles heel. Your favorite American fast food chain? In-N-Out. Very fast answer. I'm just going to leave it, let it hang there. In-N-Out, number one. Your favorite Bay Area restaurant?

1:28:10I guess Chez Panisse will take that out of the equation because you weren't there. Yeah, let's remove Chez Panisse. That changed a lot. I mean, it's hard. I mean, that's, I've been in New York for 16 years, but I'm from the Bay. I'm going to name a couple restaurants that I'm going to. So Rose Pizzeria is amazing. really really good pizza in the east bay cheese board is a staple another pizzeria um i love taco baya for mexican um and yeah that your favorite three favorite four yeah yeah were you ever a fan of fenton's growing up love fenton's yeah i just went there i just it's top of mind for me yeah fenton's is great yeah um okay brace your favorite cookbook of all time oof listener there's a pained face rubbing of the face Andy is really he's turning a little red he's shaking his head and he's not happy no I'm not happy it's not that I'm not happy it's like you know I I can tell you the ones that were the most impactful to me and you're like you're terrible at this I mean you're fine it's good I mean I think Zuni Cafe is a very obvious choice.

1:29:27I mean, just so much information, so much technique. It really is a book that I thought a lot about when I was writing my book. It's hard for me not to mention Nigel Slater, Tender, Ripe, A Cook's Book. I mean, Eat, like any of his books. I think I have all of his books. I think the thing with him, it's less about getting really nitty gritty on making the exact recipe, but I think so much of it is more of like bringing certain flavors together and his voice. I mean, he really is an incredible writer. Famously, famously does not do press. I've interviewed many people who've been famously, like, interview shy, have been thankful.

1:30:12I've tried to interview Nigel. We publish Nigel here and will not do any press. So, it's interesting. I love that you say that because he's He's singular for sure. There is a cookbook that people, it's, I'm thinking like, oh, so many of these cookbooks that I love are cookery books and they're from the UK, but it's called Near and Far. And it's not a big book, really talented young chef and writer. I think I'm drawn when I think when it naming looking at these three authors I'm really thinking about the thing that it's I shouldn't mention my mentor and friend and another amazing author David Tannis yeah I think of these people because it's it's not all these books have recipes for our photos for every recipe but they have a lot of information there's a lot of information and And I find they're presented in a well-packaged way.

1:31:16And I learned so much from them. So those... Yeah, those are great. You mentioned so many names that we recognize as our best and brightest. And I know asking you for one was impossible. And you did not take the challenge. You did three. I think we had to shout out Lorena Jones, too, by the way, your editor. Oh, my God, of course. Gotta just say. Yeah, she was a huge part of my book and was a huge supporter. And I know she continues to be. Absolutely. Yeah, I couldn't let that pass. OK, a few more. A favorite recent cookbook discovery. Is this something that maybe landed on your desk, landed in your phone?

1:31:56Things that you've looked at. I'll mention two that are very recent. Samantha Center Brat. I think she's just like she's so talented. I mean, what I was going to say was like, oh, I don't remember her ever being able to like eat her sweets. But she's an incredible baker, incredible cook. Also just one of the greatest humans. She has such a good personality. I was lucky to work with her a decent amount on sets when she was food selling when I was at Bon Appetit. She's just so talented. She really can do so many different things. And also Nick Sharma's new book. Yeah. Vegetable. Yeah. I mean, that's like an easy one that obviously is going to pull me in.

1:32:47I love my vegetables. And he's such a thinker. Very, very bright. I love that. Yeah. Wonderful. Wonderful picks there. A few more. Your favorite city outside America to visit for food. You're rolling your eyes. These are such basic questions. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Not rolling my eyes. It's just, you know, these are. Paris or Mexico City Paris, Mexico City you are a great sport those are good picks you don't need to do an impact those are really good picks this I want you to think about and we can take a pause we can do the magical editing but a cuisine you would like to learn more about I have two fair listener that was a 28 second pause that will probably be edited a little bit Malaysian okay Afghan Okay.

1:33:34Let's unpack it a bit. Okay, so for Malaysian, what do you know about Malaysian cuisine that you kind of, like, what's the baseline? Well, I have a good understanding. I have a decent understanding of cuisines in surrounding countries. But in Malaysia, I've only eaten it. I haven't ever cooked it. And I would love to learn more and be more comfortable where I could actually play with some of the ingredients and the kind of the dried anchovies and incorporating that. and the sambal and like really, really playing around and making my own. Like that is something I love. It is it from my experience, it's a cuisine where, you know, it's not subtle in any way.

1:34:16The merging of a Southeast Asia and East Asia. Yes. Yeah. And I love the food. And so I'm very curious to kind of have a better understanding of the techniques and the ingredients. I've certainly had like Nasi Lamak and yeah but I want to kind of have a broader I love that answer and then with Afghan you know it's a cuisine that I believe gets conflated with other you know regions and but it has a crystallized point of view and culture obviously but what draws you to Afghan cuisine well what draws me is the fact that it you'll see like there's Indian influence there's there's obviously influence from from iran um it's uh from turkey i think while there's similar similarities i'm sure to the food that i grew up with iranian food i think what's so interesting about afghan food it is just it's all over the place i mean they do they have incredible rice dishes and stews that are similar to um like let's say iranian food and and indian food but then also they do they do monty and there's many many variations of monty the the dumplings but you know they will um have them filled with um let's say spiced lamb and then cover that dumpling that's been steamed or boiled with uh thinned out yogurt and then chili oil.

1:35:44And I'm just like, wait, what's happening here? So I would just want to eat more of it and try more of it. And I also think, unfortunately, I think with countries and cultures that have gone through a lot of hardships, what can, what oftentimes happen is that they have a very interesting cuisine. Oh my goodness. What a well said statement about a cuisine that is in multitudes and just add that like you know Afghanistan we've the world's greatest apricots and nuts yes you know like almonds pistachios yes and different forms and like a roasting technique that's different than you might get you know in parts of California I will say not to go on too much of a tangent I spent time in Lebanon I the first time I went for fun the second time I went to do a story on Kamal Muziwak of Taula in Beirut, an incredible restaurateur.

1:36:45And I would say I had such amazing food in Lebanon, but the food that I remember most was in Berj Hamoud, which was the Armenian neighborhood. And I also feel that way about Armenia and that cuisine. It's like for the people in a culture that have gone through a lot, they definitely have such such interesting cuisine last one your favorite sandwich i mean uh does it have to be like a recognizable sandwich or like what i put in my say no rules no rules okay like no rules what is your sandwich this is something that it's like childhood it's like and people are like whoa this is i wasn't gonna think this but it's like um a sesame sesame roll um calabrian mayonnaise like mixture like just like we're doing like an italian sub basically uh and then um mustard which maybe some people and dijon mustard uh thinly sliced martadella uh turkey but uh chop it up with iceberg lettuce vinegar salt um pepper um uh potato chips uh tomato um onions, raw onions, and that's it.

1:38:00So, wonderful, precise answer. When you say chop it up, you're chopping the meat up? Yeah, just chop the whole thing up, like doing a chopped meat salad. So you're chopping, it's basically a chopped salad, exactly. It's a chopped salad that's been, but you've got Calabrian mayo and a little, and you've got Dijon mustard. But it's like a chopped salad sandwich. Yeah. Oh, Andy. It's lunchtime, so this is amazing. Andy Bergani, this has been such a treat. Thank you so much for joining This Is Taste. Thank you so much, Matt. Very happy to be back.