451: Alison Roman Is Back!

0:28This episode is brought to you by Resi and American Express. I'm not going to win the YouTube game. That's not why I'm there. I'm not on YouTube to be a YouTube celebrity. I'm on YouTube because that's the only place I can put my content that houses long-form video. There to compete with the people who are successful on YouTube as like quote-unquote content creators in that way. This is Taste. I'm your host, Matt Rodbarg.

0:59It's so much fun when Alison Roman drops by the studio. We recently had her in to talk about her excellent newsletter writing, you really should be subscribing, and her newly relaunched YouTube show, Home Movies. We also talk about where she's been dining out in New York City, her life upstate and rural New York, and really all the things you wanted to ask Alison about her life in and out of the kitchen. It's really fun catching up with her, and I hope you enjoy this conversation.

1:34Alison Roman, welcome back to This is Tace. How are you? Oh, I'm great. How are you? I'm really good. It's nice. I texted you yesterday. Would you like to come in and talk about home movies season two? And you're like, sure. Yeah. Well, I'm leaving town, and I know you're leaving town. I was like, you know, sure. I always like talking to you. I appreciate it. And I really like the evolution of your show and I've been following it. And I want to get a sense you're basing it in your upstate home. Yeah. How's upstate life for you? It's great. I mean, I'm splitting time, which I know you know a little bit about.

2:05I mean, I bought a house, you know, I bought this piece of property in 2021. Yeah. As sort of like a pandemic reaction almost. And like, what am I doing like with my life? And what is that going to look like? And then, you know, opened a store in the same building and sort of turned the upstairs into like more of a kitchen and figuring it out. But it took, you know, three years-ish to do all that. And so it's all sort of now coming into fruition. But I'm, you know, trying to balance where to spend my time. You know, I'm not quite ready to say I don't have New York anymore. Yeah. Although I do feel like the older I get, the more it sort of pushes me out.

2:45I mean, it pushed me out in a sense. And I think once you live upstate and have like a little more space, all those like the cracks start showing in New York. Yeah, it's the space. And it's also like the feeling of permanence. And I think for me, having rented my whole life, you know, you sort of don't invest that much into your home space because you're like, well, we're probably going to move eventually. Someone's controlling your rent. It's you don't have control over like when the heat goes on in some buildings or if you can paint or there's just changes that you aren't allowed. to make or don't want to invest the money in and feeling like you actually have something that you can spend a lot of your time money energy like like trees yeah and you're like oh i'm gonna yeah i landscaped last year yeah right planted things that aren't gonna show up till this year yeah and that's like an investment and i really like that i mean it's also like an investment in in your time and building community and and i've found the same way moving full-time um out of new york it's like when you're in new york renting you're kind of always moving around you're traveling But now you've got this kitchen that's going to be appearing as a main character.

3:50Yeah. On your show. Yeah. It's so great. And it's not even fully done yet. Really? I would say it's like 80%. Yeah. But there's just, I'm very afraid to make permanent changes aesthetically in the house. Like painting. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Tiling. I'm like, I feel scared. Even though I know I want to. But there's things that are like on the list. But there's also like in old houses, as you know, like there's limitations. Yeah, you don't want to. Oh, you don't have a stud here. You have to open the wall if you want to put something in. You're like, oh, shit, open the wall. You don't want to go there.

4:22I don't want to open a wall. No, no one wants to open walls. Let's talk about the aesthetic of the new season and you've made a production change. I really like it. Thank you. You're welcome. It's true. It really has evolved. It feels broadcast in a way. It's not so internet-y. Yeah. And I love it. Let me ask you, I'd love to hear the transition to this new team. How did that go? And what were you aiming for? Um, yeah, I mean, I think after three years, the, you know, Dan and David and I, we sort of were like, had run it the version of home movies that we were making had sort of run its course.

4:56And I know that everybody's really busy with other projects, like, that wasn't anyone's full time job. And so I think that it just sort of like came time to be like, we gotta, I gotta do something else. And I'm sure you want to do something else, too. and I think that I became a little fatigued with like my own shtick and like, I don't know. Also, like I'm going to have to leave that apartment at some point probably this year because my landlord is raising the rent and it like no longer justifies the place. Did he like see you on TV and was like, all right, 7B is going to be raised? No, opposite.

5:30They like know that I film there and they, yeah, I mean, I think, no, they do it for everybody. They do it for, I'm kind of joking. No, they're awful. No, just kidding. No, I'm not kidding. Yeah, you're not going to be back in a year, so they are awful. Yeah. Anyway, so I think it was just sort of I took a couple months off to be like, do I want to keep doing this? And if I want to keep doing this, what do I want out of it? And like, what do I want to be different? And I didn't want to just recreate what I had already done with a different team because I don't think you can. I think that was like its own thing.

6:01It's singular. It was made with the people who made it. And it was great. And it was so Internet-y. It was really internet, which isn't my native tongue. You know, that's like not where I felt most comfortable. But I think especially to start, it was like, well, if we're going to be on YouTube, we should like speak the language. Yeah, right on. It was the right choice, of course. I mean, it had like a channel, a little bit of the BA energy, but it had your own. And you were like definitely instinctually moving towards, you know, a lot of fast cuts and a lot of like sound effects. And it really worked.

6:30But now I think what Emily Sundberg wrote in her letter yesterday and you quote, this new show is subversive in the face of what's expected of Internet content these days. Very smart. What do you mean by subversive? um i think that i realized that like i'm not gonna win the youtube game that's not why i'm there i'm not on youtube to be a youtube celebrity i'm on youtube because that's the only place i can put my content that houses long form video you know like i'm not there to compete with the people who are successful on youtube as like quote-unquote content creators in that way and i just realized that like pretty early on like i wasn't gonna beat them at the wrong game and i didn't want to that It wasn't me.

7:13It wasn't my vibe. And I don't know. I think it was just time to also I'm 38. And when I started, I was 35 and it was in the pandemic and now we're not. And there's a lot of time that passes. And you sort of like ask yourself, like, how do you want to appear in the world? Like, what is what is the content you want to make? And, you know, I know you were going to ask me about TV. And I think for me, having made a TV show, I was like, well, I can have the TV show and then I'd have the YouTube channel. And then once the TV show sort of went off the table because CNN sort of imploded. Yeah, you wrote a really eloquent and heartfelt letter about it.

7:51And, you know, yeah, your feelings about what happened with CNN. I could go into like logistical details, but they're not that interesting. It's like typical Hollywood bullshit. It wasn't personal. It wasn't just me. It was just like a whole slate of stuff that got. Stanley Tucci got canceled. Yeah. That's like that's a big show. Yeah. It was just a whole slate of lifestyle stuff. And so So that was a real bummer to put it lightly. But I think I realized, well, you know, if that's the kind of stuff that I want to make, if I want to make something that feels more networky or more like prestige TV or more refined and like not as cheeky, not as Internet-y, then I just have to make it.

8:26No one's going to ask me to make it. Yeah, yeah. Let me ask you about TV. I'll get there right now. I feel like we talked about it last time and, you know, you made it. We can talk about it every time. You know, I'm not going to not to say it'll happen, but we can talk about it. Well, I want to hear because clearly they're going to swing back and do a lot of nonfiction on places like CNN. It's going to happen. Yeah, I think it's already happening. You're going to be there in the meetings if you've had the meetings. I know this, obviously. And like this new direction feels broadcast ready. It feels like you're like trying out in a sense for broadcast.

8:57I know the show that was canceled or didn't air was a travel show. I mean, what are your thoughts on TV right now? Are you still – is it still – It was definitely a cooking show. It had a travel component, but it was definitely, like, I would say anchored in cooking. And I was still, like, in a kitchen cooking. So it's not that different. And we actually shot in the kitchen that I'm shooting in now, but it looks very different because it was pre-construction. Oh, I see. It was pretty funny. I'm, like, on a stainless steel table, like, in an empty room because I had knocked down a wall and didn't install anything yet.

9:24Did you have the hearth behind you? Well, that was always there. That's right. The hearth's good. It is great. I feel that's, like, kind of the guest host. It's just there. Yeah. And, you know, that was sort of what I was hesitant about filming. there because i was like oh god are people gonna think that i'm like goes upstate and like installs a wood burning hearth and like you need to use it to cook it it's like no that was there when i moved in i'm obsessed with it i love it but i i cook in it on my own time i'll never cook in it yeah for a video because like that's just like not the vibe no one's doing that no i think yeah it goes back to like making the content that you aspire to like dress for the job that you want and whether or not it ever gets picked up in its current iteration, which is so new, by the way.

10:06Like, the first episode that you see was the first episode we shot. And I thought about, like, burying it, like, four episodes in. But I was like, let's just get it out of the way. It's not, like, I feel like for me, I look at it, I'm like, oh, my God, it's not my strongest performance. But I'm nervous. I'm, like, working with this new team. I'm shooting in a space that I haven't before. I'm sort of in real time asking myself, like, who am I right now? Like, how am I going to show up for this? and really I'm just trying to be as like regular and authentic and like honest as possible and teach you how to cook and it's interesting because everybody who's my friend that has seen it is like wow that's like actually more you than anyone yeah any version I've seen you said it and I agree because I know you off camera a bit as well and it's like when you were doing the performance for the other one it felt it was performance and yeah and it's also heavy we had brilliant editors who like were very good at like punching up moments and like making things more gaggy and more like zany and fun and fun yeah it was it was just a different vibe and like not to say that i'm not that person or don't still enjoy that sort of style but for me i just was like i'm tired of of feeling like i have to be that way i love that and i love that when you in your introductory to the introduction to this uh new series you know you you're you mentioned you're nervous and you didn't bury it because I was like you didn't bury it to see episode four or five yeah because and that's why we like you I mean that's why I think everyone enjoys your content because it's like so honest and I think your writing is the strongest part of your your I really love your writing and I hope so much you're welcome it's true I was just speaking with someone about it recently and and honestly I just want to read your I just like to read you I mean, personally.

11:50Well, good news. I'm writing another book. Yeah. You can read me in fall 2025 if I do everything on time. I think you will because you did three in six years. Yeah. That was insane. Yeah. I took three years off between the second and the third. But that, you know, in book years, it just feels like forever. The world moves so quickly now. Content moves so quickly. Like people demand content, recipes, everything sort of right now. And like they ingest it and like move on. And so I like a slower burn. I like, you know, pacing things out a little bit. I think that that encourages people to like savor a bit more.

12:27And, you know, books are truly a labor of love, as you would know, you make them as well. But it is, you know, I've become a lot more thoughtful about my writing and a lot more thoughtful about how I want this book to feel and look and what goes inside of it. And, you know, it doesn't it can't just be churned out. Definitely not. What are you doing for your new book? I mean, generally speaking. It's a cookbook. I'm just kidding. It's a savory book. Wait, it's an actual cookbook, Allison? It's a cookbook. I know. Can you imagine? It's a savory cookbook. I like that. Okay, we don't need to spoil a good show.

12:57I don't want to spoil a good show. I also don't like talking about things too far in advance. It's like a year and a half out. It's like, well, we'll get there. It's a cookbook. We'll leave it at that. I notice, and you've mentioned this, is your stove in the new kitchen is electric. It's electric. Which I have to ask you, like, was this a debate you had, gas versus electric? No. At all? Well, no, because I didn't have gas in the building. So there's no gas in my building. I don't have. And to have a gas stove is always possible. You have like a lot of people upstate do this because a lot of the old buildings obviously don't have gas.

13:30Yeah. So they have, you can install like a propane tank outside your home. Yeah. That like, you know, you can pipe into your house to make gas. That's exactly what I have. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I didn't want that. There's not as much real estate outside. It's just like I was like, you know what? I'm just going to roll with electric. I feel like it is actually the future. I feel like we all will be cooking on it a lot more. It didn't feel like a sacrifice. It didn't feel like I was compromising. That's what I think because, you know, we're used to the apartment rental electrics. Yeah, those are awful.

14:06Those coil ones. Those are awful. I have an aga. So let's talk gear. Let's go there. Yeah. What are you doing there? What's the setup? The setup is an AGA. A-G-A? A-G-A, yeah. Do you not say AGA? I don't know. No, no, no. I have no idea. No, no. We're calling it AGA. I don't think it's an acronym. If that's not it, they unfortunately need to rebrand. Yeah. And now it's AGA. No, AGA. Yeah, an A-G-A slash AGA. It is, I believe, British brand. Okay. But honestly, I went for aesthetics because I figured if I was going to buy a gas range, it was going to be in aga slash aga and so i i like googled to see if they had electric and they did and it wasn't just aesthetics but i was like oh i know this company is reputable i know that they make good products i like cooking on them like in the gas version so i sort of had to assume that the electric would also be good from then i did do some online research i googled reviews yeah etc etc etc get that wire cutter yeah yeah and i was kind of not i was between them and it It was like two other European brands, and it kind of came down to price because I was able to find my stove for cheaper through like a secondhand retailer in North Carolina.

15:16Gently used or was it brand new? It was brand – they said gently used, but then I spoke to them like we actually haven't used it. It's just not in a package. That's the best. We took it out of the package basically. It's like never buy a new car. It's like why – it's why you do that. Like you just don't want to pay that sticker price. Yeah, it was pretty great. And I'm super happy with it. It has three ovens. Yeah. And I got the 48-inch range, which is five burners. Two of them right now are—the only issue I've had with this thing is that I accidentally left the broiler on on the left-hand side of my oven for like three hours.

15:47Okay, and it burned out a little bit. And the two flat tops on top kind of burned out a little bit. Yeah, that's okay. I have to get a technician to come. That's the bummer about upstate is that like anytime you need anything fixed that you're like, fuck, I've got to like call the guy. The guy is perfect for June. Yeah, and he's not coming for eight weeks. I know, it's tough. But still, when you're doing wok, when you're doing high-temperature roasting, is it to your liking? The oven is superlative. Yeah, electric. I mean, yeah. It's incredible. It also, for baking, it's tough because I realize most people in the United States are not cooking on convection.

16:22Most people in Europe are. That's their default. They call it fan. With a fan or without a fan. But most default is fan cooking, which is why some recipes, especially oven recipes of mine, need clarification or translating because they assume fan, which increases your temperature like 25 to 50 degrees. I know. And, you know, whatever. Dude, baking recipes. Yeah. The baking. Savory cookbook. Don't get me started. That's why I'm doing a savory cookbook. Stove top. Yes. Yeah. But convection baking is mwah. Agree. We love the air fryer. Yeah. Nothing compares. I know. All right. I want to ask you about restaurant reviews, anonymous restaurant reviews, because you mentioned you would love to do that.

17:01I would love to do that. I just can't. You know, Delia Kai's newsletter. I know. I am dying to read to write for her. But I feel like my writing style is for better or for worse just too recognizable. Yeah. I feel like people in a second, unless I wrote about something that was so left field. Did you write the Men's Row one? Yeah, I wrote the Men's Row one. The best one. No, I but I am. I think I am too much of a tell. It's but anonymous restaurant. OK, what about like going the other way? What about just blind restaurant reviews that you write? No. Too mean. Too mean. It's not too mean. It's just that I'm very honest.

17:35And. Yeah. I also realize. As somebody whose work is publicly critiqued constantly, like I can appreciate a valid criticism, but I think that sometimes. I don't know. I just feel like coming from me, people, it might get taken out of time. It's not a rail you want to even go near. It's simply not. No. And it's it's a very good decision. Yeah. Public criticism is, you know, even even punching up, like even if you're like shit bagging on Teresi, which obviously you're not. You think you're punching up, but some people don't think it's not like people working there. You think you are. You're probably not.

18:10Just don't say anything. Good. Good advice. We will get to some restaurant picks later. But I. But what a dream. I mean, I say that also in jest because I do miss the honesty of real restaurant reviews. I feel like everybody now is too gentle and they're too democratic and they're too positive. And like even the positive restaurant reviews, like a B minus is like, yeah, there were some shortcomings. But overall, like, what if cool they're trying to do something and maybe you could go there and you might. I'm like, that's so soft. Yeah. And you want to like land it with like a soft landing for everybody.

18:48But also like opinions are opinions and we should be able to have them. And if somebody says, I had a bad experience, here's why, and they can back it up, there's no reason why that should be taken. Dude, fire up fucking Yelp. Just go there. Yeah. Just Yelp again. I have friends that do that. Yeah. I have a friend who writes Yelp reviews. I'm like, might still be that guy myself. Yeah. It's very funny. But he will leave like exclusively positive reviews, which I find very fun. That's very cute. I like that. The New York Anonymous Restaurant Review or something. There's got to be like a publication.

19:18Oh, I could recruit like six people right now. And it would that that sort of collection of restaurant reviews would be so good. I know. And it would actually make money. It'd be like actually a good venture. Well, let me ask you something. Do you think that the that people would write for something anonymously consistently? Because I think most people just want to be famous. If you paid their bill and paid them a little for the copy. Yeah, they would. You don't think if they got any glory that they would do it. I mean, Delia is getting that. She is, but I've had this conversation with other people and I want to have it with her.

19:52Like I think especially if something does really well, like if it goes wild, who wrote like somebody who wrote it is going to want to be like, fuck. I agree that you – the natural instinct is you want bylines because you want to leverage that for more work. Because we're all starving to like get our word out there. But I do think if you're paying and it's, you know, coming from people who maybe are gainfully employed or comfortable economically or also just maybe don't want the attention. I think there are enough people who work in the industry who would relish in anonymous reviews. But I think you have to compensate any writers.

20:28So if you give them like 500 bucks, a review, pays for the meal. Yeah. I mean, there's a real model. I think 60, 70, 100 a year for like 52 reviews. Yeah. Done. Yeah. But also I think so now we again, I've written about this a little bit, but recommendation culture where places like the eater list and infatuation, et cetera, thrive because people just type in like date night, West Village. They just want to be prescribed a list of things. Very few people are looking for actual thoughtful criticism when it comes to restaurants or anything else, if I'm honest. Anything else. You are being honest.

21:00We struggle every day when we write longer than 25 words. Yes. Untaste. We still do that. Well, critique is not. Yeah. It doesn't have to be inherently negative. Absolutely not. But in the world of the Internet where like negativity is trolling and trolling is negativity, those are not critiques and that is not thoughtful criticism. I still I think Wells, I think Addison, I think Helen Rosner are all putting on good stuff. So I think there's still an appetite for. I mostly agree. Yeah, I mostly agree. It's good. Scallops. OK, I want to go there. I know. Whoa, he wants to go. He's going there. I was talking with my wife last night about the guy who ate three pounds of scallops for 30 days.

21:41Do you know about this guy? No. Why did he do that? He ate three pounds of scallops for 30 days and lost like 45 pounds. Wait, sorry. He ate three pounds of scallops every day for 30 days? For 30 days. Three pounds a day? Yes. Okay, wow. Yeah. It's an expensive journey. Yeah. That's like what is, they're like 30 bucks a pound. 30 bucks a pound. So it's like 100 bucks a day. So yeah. Is he eating anything with them? My understanding of the meme or the internet, whatever, was he was eating only scallops. But like raw, pan-seared? I think he was eating them in both forms, to be honest. Wow. Why did he do this?

22:12Because he wanted to lose 43 pounds. But why the scallops? Because of the protein level. They have more protein than a chicken breast. They have way more protein than chicken breast. They have like an abnormal amount of protein. You know why? That's why they leak that little white liquid every time you cook. It's so great when you talk about the leaky liquid. I mean, it's... Yeah, it's true, though. Okay, so we were talking last night. Like, do you like scallops? I love them. Okay, this is the question because tomorrow was like no one likes scallops. And I was like, I love it. Let's go there. What do you think?

22:41I think everybody loves scallops. And if they don't, they just don't know. That's not true. I don't think everybody loves scallops. I love scallops. I think they're delicious. I think like a seared scallop in a pan that gets like perfectly brown and probably something to do with the high protein content. Like the fond is unparalleled. It's like lightly sweet. It's like deeply caramelized. It has the most unique flavor. I remember working in a restaurant where we had to sear scallops to order. I forget what the set was or what they were being served with. But I do remember that afterwards, the fond that would then reduce further and like caramelize in the skillet, I would scrape up with a fish spatula and eat.

23:20Absolutely. Like delicious candy. We've all done that. Everybody's doing that. We've all done that with fish fond because I think fish fond is really interesting. But specifically scallops. Yeah, scallop fond is what you're feeling more because of the sweetness. It's got that extra. Yeah. And it's just really. They're expensive. They're niche. I get it. I have a tough time writing recipes for them because they also, for whatever reason, never feel like a meal. Like, I can't imagine, like, making scallops for dinner. It's tough. You have to do, like, 12 per person. Yeah. I will say I have a very good recipe for scallops that I put in dining in and I don't think I've written.

23:50That's not true. There's a scallop recipe and nothing fancy as well. Yeah. But the dining in, both of them sort of use, in dining in it's like corn and spices that you like deglaze the skillet with so you get to eat all the scallop fond. And in Nothing Fancy it's like white beans that you serve with like citrus and tomatillo. So you're deglazing for the first one with the corn. Crushed corn, yeah. You like toast the spices. That's great. Because I think with scallops too, when you cook it and you sear it. Corn also not an ingredient I use a ton of. Corn and scallops together though, delicious.

24:19Frozen corn though. Feels very like a little late 90s though. Yeah. it's well we're all back i mean i know look outside walk down the street it's 90s come on let's go there i saw two girls yesterday high schoolers i was like wow i had that outfit i know how's this back but i'm also that that is admittedly my inspiration for new home movies i'm like let's just take it back we're going 90s i see i see you i was on the subway this morning and i saw a guy he looked like he was like 94 backpacker going to prep school he looked like those like new york mag articles from the 90s like the prep school yeah you know killer or But these like, you know, like guy with like the Carrie always bangs or whatever.

24:52Val Kilmer vibes. Definitely giving Val. I love I love it. And I think with the scallops, I think we're definitely due to have a renaissance. And I was going to ask you the color of scalps when you see them at home, it can get like brown and weird. Right. Like, well, they should be brown. Well, like in a way that like almost like the fond shoots up into the scallop and like kind of like paints it with black. Is that just me? Whoa, what? We gotta cook some scallops together, my friend. We gotta get the scallop. We gotta get a scallop tutorial. I feel like maybe there's not enough butter in my pan.