452: Is Milly’s Pizza in the Pan Chicago’s Best Pizza?

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0:31my favorite style of pizza is new york style pizza but i wouldn't be able to make it it'd be interesting to learn a new style of pizza you know i respect guys that know how to make multiple styles of pizza i think that's awesome but for me i just wanted to hone in on one specific style and try to make it as special as i could this is taste i'm your host Matt Rodbarg.

0:59Robert Molesky opened Millie's in 2020 as a way to show Chicago pizza fans that there was more going on in the city than deep dish. Now, of course, any true Chicago local knows all this, but nonetheless, when I first tasted Robert's pie at its uptown location, I was blown away by his understated excellence. On this episode, Robert shares his story and discusses how the legendary pies of Bert Katz, as well as the cooking of his grandmother, inspired what many consider the city's top pie. I hope you enjoy this conversation.

1:44Robert Molesky, welcome to This Is Taste. How are you? I'm doing really well. How are you? Well, I'm happy to be in Chicago. We're recording this in a studio in Chicago. I landed yesterday, Clayton and I. We went right to Millie's Pizza in a Pan, and we had the most amazing pizza. Let's just go over from the jump. The Craigslist.org pizza. What is it? Yeah, it's one of our best sellers. It's got Greco-Italian sausage on there. There's peppadu peppers, ricotta, fresh spinach, mushrooms. It's really, really good. It's a nice combination of savory and sweet and a coolness with the ricotta. It's really nice.

2:24It was extremely cool. And the papadou pepper is rarely used on pizza. And really the perfect balance of heat, acidity, sweetness. And I have to say, so Millie's Pizza in a Pan, where you've operated since 2020, made the number one slot for Chicago Magazine's pizzas in Chicago. Yeah, that still blows me away from Chicago Magazine. They do that issue once every five years. So a total honor that they put us at number one. Well, we're going to get into your story a bit. And really, I came to Millie's with Steve Dolinsky, took me there, you know, great journalist and writer in Chicago and on TV guy.

3:02And he's a real pizza hound. He's a hungry hound, but he's the pizza hound. Yeah, definitely. But he brought me there during James Beard weekend and was like, you got to try Millie's. You got to meet Robert. And I was like, OK, cool. Like pizza. I mean, we've talked about Chicago pizza all day. but your pizza's special and I feel like since 2020 when you launched it you've been able to create this style that's distinctly yours explained yeah yeah well I mean how I got started was I first went to Bert Katz's place this was after he passed away up to then I really had no knowledge of pizza I had been basically having tavern style and blue malnati's that's basically the only two pieces that I really was aware of.

3:42So when I went to Bert's and I tried that pizza, it blew me away. I'd never tried a pan-style pizza with a caramelized crust. So I decided in that moment that I wanted to figure out how to make that pizza. So I spent about a year, you know, honing the recipe and everything at home. So you mentioned Bert's, which is this legendary mythic place way out in the suburbs. Yeah, Morton Grove. Morton Grove, right. Bourdain, you know, famously went there, many others. Before you ended up at birth and thinking about pizza, what was your culinary background? What were you up to? Yeah, well, I went to culinary school in 2000.

4:17I graduated in 2004. I went to Kendall College. So I always had a passion for cooking, even as like a toddler. I always remember watching cooking shows instead of cartoons and, you know, also drawing up menus for my brothers and sisters. They could order one of three options and getting up on the stove and cooking. I would set up a stool in front of the stove, stand on it, make them simple dishes. But I've always just had a passion for cooking. So, yeah, I went to culinary school. I felt like the kitchen wasn't really for me. So I was more in the front of the house. So I was waiting tables for 16 years, practically, before I started doing Millie's.

4:57I had no idea. Where were you working in Chicago? I mean, there were multiple. It was mostly out in the suburbs. I lived in the suburbs for a majority of my life. So, yeah, places like Wildfire, Seasons 52, they're like higher end chain restaurants. You like strike me a chef guy and not like some guy when you're like the meticulous chef guy. But you were like working tables. But maybe that was your that was your service style. Yeah. And it was. But, you know, the kitchen was kind of I don't know. And I guess it was intimidating to me. But it ends, the intimidation ends in 2020 when having been at Burt's and, you know, loved the pizza there, you decided to create a pop-up right in 2020.

5:38That was the start of your pizza journey. Yeah, I was working out of a ghost kitchen, but it was, you know, I was working out five days a week. So it was more like, you know, did that for a year and a half, five days a week at Envision Kitchen in Logan Square. Okay, so it was more of a ghost kitchen than a pop-up. Yeah, it was definitely a ghost kitchen. So let's hear a little bit about that. When you go to Bert's, you're experiencing this pan pizza for the first time. Yeah, it's like the gates open and the heavens. The heavens reigned. Because truly, Bert's is not, Lou Malnati's is not Pequod's.

6:14That's a very different pizza. You've worked the dough and you have this like caramelization and this crust that's super unique. Explain. Let's go just to Bert's. Like, I'd like to get into that. Like, what is the Bert's pizza that really made you think, wow, this is my future? I mean, I had like a Supreme style pizza when I was there. And then I, you know, as I started looking into it, I really knew nothing about the man. I knew nothing about that style of pizza. So kind of went down the rabbit hole with looking on the Internet pizza making forum, looking at YouTube videos, watching like videos that he had been in and just starting to read about it, that he make it made a limited amount of pizzas that he worked there with his wife.

6:57He had a small operation, and I really respected that, and he made every pizza himself. And, you know, the process, the way that he lived his life, you know, so I decided that that's kind of what I wanted to do, make a limited amount. And so I started doing research and looking at YouTube videos and just going down the rabbit hole and trying to figure out the dough processes. So let me get into that. We talk a lot about flavor development through dough. And we'll get to obviously Tavern versus NY versus Pan versus Deep, but we'll get there. But let's talk about that. You bring up a point. How do you get flavor development in your dough?

7:37Yeah, I use a starter called Poolish. I honestly wish that I could do more, but I'm kind of limited in the space that I have. A way to really cold ferment the dough, you need a lot of space in order to make dough age for several days. So I'm kind of limited. So I do do a starter called poolish, and I mix that in the morning, and I let it sit out for a few hours, and then I do put it in the fridge for a full day. Most of the time, you're supposed to let it sit out for about 12 to 16 hours, but I let mine go about 24 hours. So that allows you to add flavor to the dough. So you're looking like a day ferment, and then you put it in.

8:17Yeah, well, I add the poolish to the dough, and then I let it bulk rise for about seven hours, and then I'll ball it up. And then I'll put it in the fridge and I'll let it cold ferment for another day. And then let's take us to the next step as you pull the ball and you're ready to go. You're doing 60 pizzas a day. Yeah, we're doing 60 a day. So, yeah, I pull the dough out of the dough tin. We use individual dough tins and then I put it in the pan and then I'll usually let it sit out and rise for about three to four hours before we start service. and obviously as service progresses, the dough's rising more as more time passes.

8:57So you put all 60 balls out of Speed Rack? All 60 of them, yeah, and we stack them up, yeah. Stack them up. Exactly. We'll get to the toppings, the way you IDA, the way your sauce too is particularly bright in a cool way. Yeah, yeah. But let me ask you about the 60 number. Now, this is a purely capacity issue. This isn't like you being a cool guy and saying you've got to have a secret number. And I mean, like literally I went yesterday, you were kind enough to pull a pie aside for us. But like I had three people come in and we're like, you're sold out. Yeah, exactly. You're front of house staff.

9:28Really great guy was like, I'm sorry, you got to come Tuesday, you got to come Wednesday. But why 60? I mean, that's kind of where we're maxed out with our, you know, the fridge. That's how many dough tanks with, you know, a lot of space is taken up by the ingredients. You got to think about the cheese. You got to think about the toppings. things you know you got to store all that in the fridge so we have a really small space there so we're kind of maxed out and 60 is probably the max that we can do there so okay that makes that's why the number i mean when i first started in the ghost kitchen i was doing like 10 to 15 a day so i've slowly ramped it up you know and about 60 is the limit 60 is the limit so let's let's get to the final product like you pull it out of the oven your diner you're lucky enough to have one of these 60 pies you're cutting into it what's happening what are we getting there because it's definitely not Pequod's and I keep bringing up that name because it just is a reference point to many for this you know not deep dish but like in the pan style because you're not doing deep dish I think Pequod's has a thicker dough that's a little more dense yes it is and I think they use a lot more dough than what we use yeah I don't know if they I I can't speak to their their process because I really don't know much about it at Pequod's.

10:45But I think it's more dense. There's more dough in the pan, and we allow ours to rise for much longer. You know, I think they're trying to produce a lot of pizzas, so they've got to pump them out. So, yeah, you get a little bit. I think the dough is lighter and airier. You know, it looks heavy, but it eats pretty light, you know. Well, I mean, Robert, I've got to say, and controversial take, but your pie feels more like Detroit style. Yeah, definitely. What do you think about it? I don't think it's as thick of a dough as Detroit. It's kind of like in between, I guess, is the best way. I would say three quarters of what a Detroit would be.

11:25But I just went to Michigan and Trumbull, that spot in Detroit. I don't know if you've been to Detroit and had pizzas there. I've never been there. You've never been to Detroit? I've never been to Detroit. I feel like, I mean, if I could bring you and the Michigan Trumbull guys together, Chicago meets Detroit. That would be like a real life goal. But it is lighter than maybe you're thinking. And I feel like they're both amazing pies. What's happening with the crust? Why? What do we? It's there's a unique. There's a crisp. There's a frico. You could say what's going on with your crust. Yeah, it's caramelized cheese.

11:56I know at birth, it was never like I read somewhere that he never did it intentionally. That it was more of an accident. So when I started developing the recipe, I wanted to make sure. I feel like that's the best part. So I wanted to make sure that that was intentional. So on my part. Yeah. It's just got like this saltiness to it, a nice crisp to it. It looks burned, but it tastes amazing. It doesn't taste burned at all. No, Millie's Pizza in a Pan Pizza is never burned. I've never, I've had it a few times and it's never burned. It feels like it's, it's made like you obviously know your, your levels.

12:31Let's get through some of the pies you're offering right now. Um, this spring into the summer. I just like, I loved the lineup. But give me a couple of the pies that's on the menu. Well, we have a new one that's called Only Pans. I mean, we're not reinventing. We're not inventing anything, right? You know, we take the classics and put a little tweak on them. So the Only Pans does have the peppery peppers, pepperoni. There's also pesto on there. We use Calabrian chili honey. It's all in one pie? Yeah. I'm loving that. Yeah, it's really, really good. The Untitled is one of our best sellers. That is pickled jalapenos.

13:07Again, the pepperoni, ricotta, quesoarte, which I kind of put that on there as a joke. It's pineapple. Then there's French toast bacon. Yeah. French toast bacon. Then there's also glory tomatoes on there and mozzarella. So glory tomatoes there, not the papadou peppers. That's your city birds. And French toast bacon, I'm deducing it's like a little bit of like a maple-y bacon. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then we have the Craigslist, which you had. A lot of our pizzas have that salty sweet and richness in the ricotta. No, and I'm going to step back to something you said. I'm going to go back to something you said and just say this.

13:50You are inventing shit. You're humble. This is what invention is. Those fine tweaks, those little subtle adjustments in pizza, that's pure invention. And to me, that's why Millie's is such a cool experience is that you're actually you're thinking of it in a culinary sense. The 16 years of your restaurant world is kind of showing itself. I mean, are you inspired by other sources when you're thinking about your pizzas? Because clearly you've got a lot of creativity here. Yeah. I mean, I've always been interested in cooking and, you know, the culinary world. Even the way I cut the vegetables is slightly different than most people do.

14:28I put thought into it and cut things on a bias, things like that. But, yeah, there's a lot of people that inspire me, especially in the pizza community. I mean, just half a block from here is one of my mentors, Jonathan Goldsmith from Spock and Napoli. He has been so inspiring me. We don't make the same style of pizza, but, I mean, just his guidance has been amazing. There's so many people, Pauly G's, Derek Tong, you know, a lot of Tony Troiano from J.B. Alberto's. Just a lot of people have helped me along the way. Tony Gemignani out in San Francisco. Totally. We've talked on the phone. I went out there.

15:05He's come to my shop. So, yeah, it's just the pizza community. Everyone is so willing to help each other. You ever meet Anthony Falco? No, I haven't. I hope Anthony can come out to visit. Yeah, I mean, he inspires me, too. And I know we follow each other on Instagram, and he likes some of my posts. I always get super excited. Yeah, I know. It's like, holy cow, Anthony Falco liked one of my friends. No, I think Anthony would enjoy your work and enjoy your creativity and your craft. All right, let's do the thing. Okay, we're here in Chicago, and there's a lot of pizza styles here. I think a lot of people, and I don't want to be reductive.

15:42You're this far in the interview. We don't need to go over too much of the basics. But truly, to me, taking Millie's out of the equation, I'm a tavern guy, personally. That's where I go. And I'm from West Michigan, so I've got some great tavern style there. But tell me, when you're thinking about Chicago's pizza scene, you just mentioned, you know, Neapolitan style you mentioned. But let's talk about tavern a little bit. What does tavern mean to you? And do you have any favorite tavern style spots? Definitely. I mean, tavern's everything. That's what I grew up on. That's really all I knew about pizza, to be honest.

16:18Me and my dad would always go to Barnaby's. It's out in the suburbs. It's one of the most legendary tavern style pizza places. And we go there after baseball games and, you know, special occasions. That's where we always went to celebrate. That's my dad's favorite pizza or was his favorite pizza. So that's kind of all I knew. And I love Barnaby's. I love Pat's. Yeah. It's one of my favorites. Pat's. Yeah. Crust Fund Pizza. Not a lot of people know about this. Wait, Crust Fund? Crust Fund Pizza. Explain it. New to me. Yeah. His name is John Carruthers. He does like a pop-up once every month and he sells them out of his alley.

16:54but he's like they're incredible the process that he uses and everything to make them so yeah i really like that one and i'm gonna have to explore across fun i i like that i'm gonna i'm definitely gonna reach out let me ask you sausage jardinier to me it like defines uh in some way chicago style tavern um that combination is is rare outside of chicago just you can't find it even in west oh really i didn't yeah no one really thinks of that i think jardinier is a chicago thing Such a Chicago thing. Explain why that works on a culinary sense. I don't know. It's got some heat in there. And then along with the sausage, I don't know.

17:30It's just a really good combination with the smoothness of the cheese. Yeah. You know, I. The brick cheese and then Jardinera is just like the pickled peppers and other things thrown in there with that acidity. Yeah. I mean, pickled vegetables is I think it's good on pizza. Well, clearly, I mean, you have these Papa Dew peppers and like I think that's a real moment in Chicago. Pizza lore is when someone decided to put something acidic and pickley on top of this very rich pizza. Yeah, I don't know a lot of people doing the Peppa Dews. I know I'm not the first to do it, but in Chicago, I'm not really sure who was one of the first to do it.

18:06Another point of media that you got, Portnoy showed up, Dave Portnoy. And I watched the vid yesterday and man, really nice review. What was that like having, you know, Dave Portnoy, you know, pizza influencer extraordinaire, really important to the scene, come to your shop? Yeah, that was an intimidating day. That day I was training a new employee to make pizzas. So I had no idea it was coming. He doesn't order it under his name. He ordered it under his cameraman's name. So I had no idea. I just thought an Austin ordered. And I was doing something in the kitchen. And then I looked up at the counter and then I saw Dave Portnoy there.

18:43And I'm like, oh, boy, you know, and it was I mean, I was incredible to see him there and then, you know, handed him the pizza. And he said a lot of nice things about us. Yeah. You know, and obviously the review had some entertainment value to it as well. Yeah. I'll link to the show notes. There's a there's a cameo in there that that in the comments, it says it feels pure Chicago. Yeah, exactly. In uptown and in your vibe in your neighborhood. Is it cool neighborhood? A lot of a lot of locals, a lot of a lot of folks coming in. coming in a lot of interesting people on argyle where our shop's at yep so yeah uh i really wanted to get into the eights but it didn't happen for us but uh he said a lot of nice things about our pizza so yeah um he rolls up he eats the pie are you there when he's recording it yeah i wanted to stay inside i didn't want to like be the guy that was outside you know standing there watching him review the pizza nah you know but it was kind of i had to white knuckle it for about two to three weeks because that's how long it took for the review to come out.

19:42So I had no idea what the score was because he left right away after. Yeah, he just bounced. Let me ask you, did it change business at all? Oh, it was huge. Yeah. And what was crazy, that week, Portnoy came. And then that same exact week, that Chicago Magazine article came out where we got number one. So it was insane. Just the phone was nonstop running off the hook. We had to turn so many people away. How does it make you feel when you turn people away? Yeah, I mean, it's a little frustrating, you know, but I also think that it makes things special, you know. I think those people will come back, you know, and they'll want to get the pizza, so.

20:18Do people get angry when they come in and you're sold out? Only a few. Only a few people get upset, you know, especially when they come in at 4 o 'clock and we're sold out already because a lot of people preorder and they're like, how are you sold out at 4 o 'clock? It's like, oh, people preorder it, man. Yeah, but there's ways to diffuse it and make it feel like you're not trying to be like, you know, restrict the supply to increase demand. I always thought Hot Doug did that with his place. He could have increased capacity. But that's just my read of that guy. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, Doug's, he went to Kendall College.

20:50Oh, sweet. I mean, no disrespect. That guy's amazing. Oh, yeah, incredible. He created that line and it created like a little bit of a buzz. Yeah, it creates a buzz, you know, and that's what you kind of want to do. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I'm interested in getting to location two. And you opened up in the suburbs recently. And, you know, when you go from one to two, that's a huge leap. Yeah, I was terrified. You were? You were terrified? Terrified, yeah. I mean, up to that point, I was the only one who made every single pizza that's ever come out of Millie's Pizza in the Pan. So for me to let go of the reins and allow someone else to do it.

21:26I mean, I spent close to four months training the guy. what's his name give him Danny Danny yeah Danny was great I got to meet Danny and last night he was he was working because you were out of your other location yeah so I mean yeah I mean I wanted to slowly introduce him to all the processes you know so it was like one thing at a time and it took about four months to train him and he's doing a really good job he is he's doing an excellent job I hope Danny realizes how lucky he is to get to get this like mentorship yeah and I mean hopefully we can grow as a company and he stays or sticks around and we can you know build something them together.

22:01Talk about location too. Where is it at and what's, how's it going, expanding out to the suburbs? And like, are you still restricting the amount of pizza that you're doing a day? Yeah, definitely. Right now we only have one oven and at that, that oven, you know, the top, we use a double stack convection oven. So the top motor blew out on the very first night. So we're only limited to half an oven. So the oven can't cook as hot as we want. So the pizzas take a lot longer. Oh, that's a bummer. So we're really limited as to what we can do. I chose Berwyn, Illinois, because first of all, I love the place used to be called Gina's Italian Ice.

22:39It's like, looks like it should be a pizzeria. It's got that old school feel. So she was there for 50 years, and I saw the place for sale, couldn't afford it. And then I saw it was up for rent. So I jumped on it. Amazing. So they were originally selling it, then they're renting it. Yeah, I think they were having a difficult time selling it for the price they wanted. So they put it up for rent and I called her that day and met with her the following week and we pretty much put things in motion. How quickly were you able to build it out? It took about four months. You know, we failed our final inspection the first time.

23:13There was a lot of things they wanted us to repair, which, you know, is frustrating. But, you know, it took us a couple of weeks to get that fixed and we got up and running. So when you look at a new space and you open it, But you're looking at also having a small capacity because you want to make it craft. Yeah. This one's a little bit bigger. I mean, it's only pickup and delivery, but the kitchen's bigger. Yeah. So we do have more room to grow. I didn't have the funds right away to get all the equipment that I want. But as time passes, I think we'll be able to do more pizzas out of this one.

23:46Let me ask you. So are people getting delivery out there? Yeah. We use DoorDash. Yeah. We have a third party. Third party. Third DoorDash. And pickup. So what's that neighborhood like? Uh, it's cool. I mean, we're on this corridor, it's on Roosevelt. So we're by Fitzgerald, which is a legendary music venue. There's a brewery across the street. There's a cool music venue, two doors down with, you know, they have live music all the time. So it's a cool little area. Yeah, so let me ask you, where does the brand go? I mean, you've got two locations. I mean, your uptown location on Argyle is going to be popping for a while.

24:24And you can dine in there, and I love the aesthetic. It's got a great, clean, cool vibe. Yeah, and the Berwyn one, I wanted it to have a totally different aesthetic. It's got a way more old-school feel because the building's a lot older. But where we're going to go from here, I don't know if I'm going to open another Millie's. I maybe would like to try to figure out how to make a different style of pizza and maybe open another, you know, another pizzeria that isn't a Millie's, you know. Robert, let's, theoretically, of course. Well, I mean, I did for a while. I made bar style pizza. Not a lot of people know about that, but it is a really thin crust style of pizza you cook in a pan.

25:03But think about like a tavern pizza, but it has that caramelized cheese edge, which I think adds. Oh. Yeah, it's kind of wild. I mean, bar out in Jersey, near where I live, we're known for our bar pizzas. Tavern and bar are very close to me. But the difference is the thickness. Exactly. Okay, so Robert, you open up a new style. You actually, that's like a different part of your brain. I love pizza. So, I mean, my favorite style of pizza is New York style pizza, but I wouldn't be able to make it if you asked me. I don't know how. Well. Yeah. So, I mean, it'd be interesting to learn a new style of pizza.