453: Ham El-Waylly & C Pam Zhang

28:50We got to burn the plantains a little bit more. We got to blend the nuts a little smoother. And we just, it just was years of not experiencing that again. So pandemic hit, we start experiencing that again. And it's like, oh, wow, there's like this whole relationship that kind of went unattended. Like it just got kind of got pushed to the side and forgotten. And so the pandemic really helped grow that relationship, which is something I'm very grateful for. Yeah. The like six week long Mole Poblano. Or was it Poblano? Yeah. That project. That's like the most romantic thing I've heard for YouTube.

29:32That's so cute. And it's really like, you know, the mystery menu videos that you do together for the New York Times. Like your rapport is so evident. And, you know, I read YouTube comments because I love this series of people talking about how they should show you two and like couples therapy to people. And I think what people maybe don't know is you ran a restaurant together. Like you had this whole career of like what people are seeing is the result of like so much practice collaboration between you two that like maybe that isn't communicated, you know? Yeah. It's like we weren't like this magically.

30:05It didn't like it didn't just matter. We didn't see each other and immediately became these people. That's something that is kind of missed when you see just a YouTube video and you don't see all the context or anything around it. Like it took a lot of work to get to work, like active work, a lot of communicating, a lot of like we're kind of each other's therapists a lot of the time. So there's a lot of communicating and work and time that goes into getting a relationship to that point where you feel comfortable just talking about anything, no matter how uncomfortable it may seem or just working together or kind of reading each other's minds, knowing where her mind's going to go as it goes there so you can like anticipate and kind of work together better.

30:52It takes a lot of work. It's a lot of work. Yeah. And that comes across. And I think like that's one of the best things about those videos is that you always seem like you're having so much fun when you're cooking together. I'm curious, like if there's a favorite ingredient that you ever did for the mystery menu series. The mystery menu series, I think, is one of my favorite things that we do because it's like it's something we love competition shows like Top Chef. It's Top Chef is one of those things that we kind of we grew up in the industry kind of watching it. So we kind of evolved with Top Chef as it evolved into the show that it is now.

31:29So we would always ask ourselves what we would do in like that scenario and what would we make with that ingredient? What would we make with that time frame? Like that's just – those are just exercises that we do on the couch whenever we're watching a competition show. And so to actually be able to do it is amazing. So I think my favorite ingredient has to be durian, which is what we did recently. I think it's this season. Yeah. Because it's not an ingredient that we're familiar with at all. And it's really exciting to work with something that maybe you've tasted a couple of times. You have an idea of what the flavor profile is, but you don't know it well enough to go in and like bacon, cornflakes, masa.

32:19those things are, we use those so much that it's easy to just think of dishes right off the top of our heads. And it feels, it's still challenging, but there's like a safety net under it. Cause we kind of know how things are going to come out just cause we're really comfortable with those ingredients. But throwing in something like durian, which is a base ingredient that you can do a lot with because it's, it's just, it's a fruit. So here's a fruit. What can you make with this fruit. And it has such a complex flavor. So it's like, it's funky. It's sweet. It has to like some allium notes in there, which is also, which is weird for a fruit, but it, it's, it was a lot of fun.

32:58That, that's, I think, I think my favorite episode so far. And it's a sweet episode because durian has this reputation of being, you know, very pungent, like not good. Some people would say, and you two don't have that reaction at all. You're so excited to cook with it and you make such delicious looking things with it. Have you cooked with durian since doing the video? We haven't, but only because we haven't really come across it. I'm sure if we walk into, I'm not sure if they have it at H Mart. I don't think they do. But if we come across it somewhere, I'm sure we'll like pick it up and try some.

33:33But it's not something we've cooked with since. But it is something we're interested in having again. And it's I don't really like it when food is so personal for so many people. And I feel like durian especially. It's like there's so many. It has like that like a lot of YouTubers or like social media people like to have like the shock value of trying to maximize how gross it is. They're like, oh, my God, it's durian. We're all going to die. It's like world's grossest fruit in like all caps across the video. Yeah, exactly. No one needs that. I really don't like food being presented that way. Like there's that like the whole bizarre foods things of like I'm going to go eat the grossest thing I can find.

34:21But it's like it's not gross to a very large group of people. So we always like to approach just a new food or just food in general with like a pretty open mind. It's like if it's an ingredient or a dish that's close to someone, it's important to treat it with respect. Yeah. And also, like, I got to try some of the jackfruit durian curry that you made for that video. And I was, like, obsessed with it. Oh, really? Yeah. I want to get the curry paste recipe later because I really, like, I have jackfruit right now on my countertop. And I was like, oh, I kind of want to – maybe I don't have durian, but I want to do something like that again, you know?

34:58Oh, definitely. Oh, I'm glad you liked it. Yeah. Yeah, green curry was one of the weekend experiments that we did a while back. So you can green curry anything with the proper technique and the right base ingredients. You can turn anything into a really tasty green curry. Another thing I like about these videos is that they get to showcase your graphic tea collection, which is just so good. And I'm wondering if you have any holy grail graphic teas. Okay, the graphic teas. I like I really like going to shows, but I even when I was a kid. So like I was really into music when I was younger because it was like I said, it was a very conformist society.

35:37And so like many kids, like my my way to like rebel and break out was was to find interesting music I liked, which was a lot of the times like things that you can really find around there. It's very much a Billboard Top 40 town. So breaking away from that was my way of like, oh, I'm different. Like you do when you're younger. Yeah, I'm different and you can tell because I'm wearing this sick T-shirt. Exactly. Look at my Converse's. They're untied. Like that was kind of the way. Or like I have a T-shirt on, but I'm wearing my dad's blazer on top of it. I'm quirky. I mean, I would wear that, yeah.

36:21It's a good move. I still do that now. So that's like, I still kind of dress like I'm a child now, I guess. So the graphic tees, I always wanted to be somebody who went to a lot of shows. Like I was, I'm really, I really, there's few things as satisfying as being in a very, just, you feel the energy in a concert where everyone's really into it and really excited to see the performer and know all the words. Like you kind of, the hair stands up on your arm, you get like some goosebumps and you just, you just feel it. And that's, you can't really get that from a lot of things. So that's one of the reasons why I like going to shows so much.

37:07And I try to get, I don't believe in getting like just band shirts online. I feel like you need to get it from the merch table. That's like, that's the, that's like my rule for, so like all the, all the band shirts that I wear, they're like from shows that I've, I've gone to. And I think probably the one that I like the most would be the, or my holy grail tea would be the my Japanese breakfast one, just because that was the first show that I went to after the pandemic. So when I first moved here before, just first, first moved here, I was 20. I started going to shows in Manhattan. I moved to Jersey.

37:52That's that's where my dad was living. And then I stopped because I was in the restaurant industry, didn't have time, didn't have the means. It just wasn't something that could happen. So that Japanese breakfast show right after the pandemic was probably the first show that I had been to in over 15 years. So it was like, it was a big, it was a big deal. I was really excited. I was really looking forward, really looking forward to it. And it, it was totally worth it. And I loved it so much that that kind of kickstarted my, like, desire to go to shows again. So that's, I think that since it, like, marked the beginning of this new show-going ham, I would say probably Japanese breakfast tea.

38:38I love the ham renaissance of going back to shows. Okay, so that was your first one. Is there one that you went to recently that was really fun? So I got tickets to go to Carly Rae Jepsen yesterday at Pier 17, and I don't know if you heard, the show ended up getting canceled like four or five songs in because of the thunderstorm and they rescheduled for now. It's right now? It's right now. Oh, Pam, if you had told me, we could have rescheduled. Oh, no, it's fine. This is totally fine. Oh, but I love Carly Rae Jackson. She's amazing. She's amazing. We could have gone together instead of doing this.

39:14That would have been great. So I was like, it was one of those shows like where you could feel it in the crowd, like what we were talking about, like that like special energy where everyone's super excited to be there. Everyone knows all the words. Everyone's jumping around. And as she started, she did run away with me and then it starts raining at the end. It's like, oh, this feels really special right now. This is going to be awesome. And then thunder hit and then she just stopped. She's like, all right, for everyone's safety, we need to get the hell out of here right now. So that I feel like that would have been up there, But probably the best show I've been to all year, this will be weird, is the Aqua reunion show.

39:56It was amazing. It was amazing. And it's, I used to listen to Aqua unironically the entire album as I drove around Doha for a long time. So I know all the words. I know all the songs. It's like it's just it's the equivalent of, you know, how a lot of people watch like TLC to kind of like melt their brain, like smooth brain. You just relax. You kind of just just soak it in because it's good times. It's kind of like the same reason why I'm into like wrestling now, because it's like it's like a smooth brain thing. You can just sit down. It's like theater. You don't need to think too much. You just like soak it in.

40:34So that's like what Aqua was to me. So being able to relive that was really, really fun. And they put on a good show. And Aqua fans are maybe some of the best fans that I've seen at any concert. They go for it. They dressed up. They sang along. They jumped around. It was great. Okay. I'm truly so upset that you're missing Carly Rae for this. But I'm glad that you got Aqua for a similar bubbly, smooth brain experience. Because that sounds like it was special. Do you think they timed the reunion with the Barbie movie? For sure they did. There's no way that they didn't because I think it was the first time.

41:12It's the first time that they toured since 1998, which is when Barbie called like that. I don't buy that coincidence. Tinfoil hat. Yeah, they knew. Yeah, they definitely. Greta Gerwig tipped them off. She probably paid for the secretly paid for their tour. Whoa. That was and also Caroline Polachek was also a great show. So yeah, really, really fun for also like dancey poppy type things. Okay, I mean, we could do a whole music podcast. We could go down that road. Which I would love. But I want to talk a little bit about your projects and what you're working on right now, because there's a lot of cool things.

41:48One of which being Strange Delight, which is this New Orleans-inspired oyster bar that's going to be opening in Brooklyn. Can you tell me a little bit about your involvement and how that process has been for you? Strange Delight was kind of like the dream of a friend of mine who I actually met at Ando. We worked together back then. Yeah, he's a Momofuku guy. Yeah, he's very much a Momofuku guy. He's like employee number five or something. I think so. Yeah. He's been there for a while. And Michael, who also works with Moon Burger, upstate. Yeah, like around Hudson, right? Yeah, around Hudson. And so they approached me initially to kind of consult on the menu, to, you know, develop some NOLA-ish oyster dishes for this concept that he'd been dreaming of for quite some time.

42:42And we started working together and then I just got, I really, really fell in love with the project and then they really liked the work I was putting out and then all the stars aligned and then I got brought on as a partner. So I've worked with, somehow I don't know how this happened, but I've worked with oysters a lot in my career. It wasn't, it's not like I woke up. Well, the fine dining guy is like, somehow I worked with a lot of oysters. Yeah. Oysters and oyster bars. So it's like, it's, it's something I really like. It's, there are a few things that, that are as delicious, completely untouched as they are like dressed properly.

43:26And oysters are one of those things. Like if you start with a, really good cold oyster and you just shuck it and have it right there. That is, it's like such a pleasurable experience. Like you get that brine, you get a really nice creamy texture, like you really get a taste of the ocean. And I, that's like one of the main reasons why I like working with oysters so much is that they're, yes, they're really versatile. You can fry them, you can poach them, you can stew them, you can, you can do a whole array of things with them, but they're still just as amazing, unadorned, freshly shucked and eaten.

44:02And so I conveyed like my love for oysters and all these things. And then it just clicked. And so we ended up going to New Orleans together and eating at both a bunch of new places like Miss River and Pesh, which both have incredible spins on classic New Orleans cuisine, local ingredients treated perfectly well. And we also went to the classics like Arnaud's and Galatoire's. So good. Really good. The Rockefeller at Galatoire's is actually what we based our Rockefeller on. But we like obviously tweaked the method and the ingredients. But that was we knew we knew that that fennel forward, smooth spinach kind of vibe thing on top of the oyster was what we wanted.

44:56It is so, it's, it's perfect. It's perfect. It's just such, such a delicious, delicious oyster. And, um, that, that I think is, is I'm really excited for people to try our spin on that. I can't wait. That's, I'm really proud of where we are with that. It's like, it's a lot of, it's a lot of work. I'm sure it's, uh, I'm sure it's, The prep is a little bit more elaborate than what they do over there, but it's like the payoff is huge. I'm really excited for people to get like these things that you can't really find here. Like there are people who do spins on the Rockefeller and stuff, but they like they go so far that it feels like it's its own thing.

45:35And it's really tough when you do an oyster with like a topping or or to not go overboard because it's so easy to overwhelm the oyster because it's it is such a delicate thing that you need a pretty. pretty delicate hand to make sure that you're balancing all the flavors well and that ultimately you finish with a nice clean brine because that that's like that's the goal when you're eating an oyster whether it's cooked or raw you want to finish with that brine because that's what keeps you going back for more and and just keeps you eating like keeps you craving more oysters so that's that's probably one of the things i'm i'm most excited for people to try and there's we're doing a whole bunch of New Orleans inspired classics.

46:19So we're doing barbecued shrimp. We're doing, um, we're doing our spin on Felix's charbroiled oysters, which is also really exciting. There was, there's a certain smoky smell that, that you, that kind of wafts in the air when you walk into Felix's and you know, you're there. We went there, we went there twice because we loved it so much. And as soon as you walk in that like kind of hits you in the face. And when we're testing our version of it, we got that same exact smell as it came off the grill. And that's when we knew like we nailed this. This is spot on. So there's like, I'm just, I'm excited.

46:58I'm just excited for people to try what we've been working on for almost like a couple of years now. Yeah. And there's been some pop-ups. I went to one. I had the Hush Puppies, I think were the standout for me just because like, it's just so delicious. But do you have a sense of when it's going to open? Not really. We know that it's going to be in the Fort Greene area, but we're not quite sure where or when. So stay tuned. Keep your eyes open for some Strange Delight news. Yeah, follow him Strange Delight on Instagram to find out. Another exciting thing you have in the works that I want to talk about is your debut cookbook, which I know you're working on with Clarkson Potter.

47:40Can you tell me a little bit about that? So I'm really excited to like release this thing into the wild because it's my exploration of home cooking based on the home cooking I grew up with. So it's not the main thing. So I want to get past this like idea of like only traditional food is acceptable because like what is tradition, especially in food? It like morphs over time. There was a point in time like most people when you think of kimchi these days, it's like that red Napa cabbage kimchi. You go far, you go back far enough. Kimchi used to be white. So that like, that's an evolution. And there was a time where, there was a time in Mexican cuisine where pozole wasn't a big like national dish.

48:28That evolved over time. There was a time where, I'm sorry to go back to Korean food again. Sol and I are working on a podcast with the Sporkful that kind of dives into the history of specific dishes and how they're made. And we recently did an episode about dokboki. So I have like Korean food history on the top of my mind. So there was a time. So initially dokboki or Korean rice cakes was made with rice flour. So you pound rice into these cakes, these like really mochi-esque chewy cakes. And that's how rice cakes were made. And then Japan kind of colonized Korea and then took the rice away. And so then they ended up making dokboki with wheat.

49:21And once that was over and they regained rice, dokboki went back to being made with rice. So it's like at a different point of time, there was a different thing that was considered traditional because food changes. It morphs based on techniques available at the time, equipment available at the time, ingredients available at the time. So it's like an ever-changing thing. What's like traditional now may not be traditional in 50 years. Or like if you think about it, tomatoes are such a cornerstone of what we consider Italian food today. Tomatoes aren't from Italy. What did they eat before they got tomatoes?

50:00I think about that with chili peppers a lot also that, you know, chili peppers have spread over the entire world. They're so integral in like East Asian cuisine, like Thai cuisine, things like that. But they're not native to Thailand. They're not native to Thailand. They're native to South America. Potatoes, native to South America. Like that's you think of the Irish. You only think about potatoes. Like that's like. What were they eating before? What the Irish eat before potatoes. Like they're not native there. So it's, I really don't like like this idea. Like it's important to preserve traditions.

50:30Don't get me wrong. That's not what I'm saying at all. But what I'm saying is like holding this idea that like, if it's not a traditional food, it's like garbage and I don't need to learn it or respect it or make it. It's just, it's just not true. So I kind of want to, want to tackle that. And I'm taking these home cooked dishes that I grew up around and making them my way. So I'm kind of like infusing techniques that I've learned over, over the time ingredients that I'm around making this like a purely American cookbook. Like this is going to be, it's not like a global ethnic kind of thing. I don't like either one of those words.

51:06It's, it's an American cookbook. It's American home cookbook. That's going to, that's going to just show you new ways to use spices, ingredients, and techniques that you may think that you know or have or definitely have access to but like show them how to how to put them together in a new way and hopefully you know spice up spice up your home cooking a little bit yeah i'm really excited for it even more after this conversation just because everything you've talked about growing up eating sounds so delicious and knowing all the things that you've learned in different restaurants and just like the way you can combine technique and tradition and flavor i I feel like that's something that a lot of people are looking for, you know?

51:48Yeah, I hope so. I hope so. I hope so, too. I hope so. And you mentioned a podcast a little bit that you're working on with Sola. What's the concept behind that? So it's called, it's like a spinoff from The Sporkful, which we listen to all the time. And you're guests on sometimes. And we're guests on sometimes. That's true. That's true. Yeah, it's called Deep Dish. And we basically pick a dish and then we deep dive. So there are interviews, there are recipes, there's a whole bunch of banter. It's fun. It's a lot of fun. Hopefully coming out soon. Can you mention one of the dishes or is it top secret?

52:25Well, tupoqui is one of the dishes that we explored. I think that's, I'm going to keep the rest kind of close to my chest. But it spans all over the globe where there's no stone left unturned. Right. And one more collab that you're working on with Sola is your baby, which is dropping soon. Baby dropping soon. Baby dropping soon. Early fall. Are you guys going to be those parents that make baby food? Oh, definitely. So we got this ridiculous piece of kitchen equipment called the Thermomix. So it's something that I like used at WD-50 to make a temperature stable hollandaise gel so you could freeze it and deep fry it without it exploding all over the place.

53:15So that's what I initially used it for. But essentially what it is is that it's a blender that can cook at the same time. It's really popular in Europe. They kind of use it like their microwave. You can steam on there. You can make risotto in there. You can make broth in there. You can even fry in there. So we got a thermo mix because the thought is we want to go to the farmer's market, get like some really nice peas when they're in season. And all you need to do is pop them in this blender, add some water, set the temp, and then blend it. And then boom, you've got perfect, warm, fresh baby food.

53:50So we're like very excited to test this out, to really see how it works. We have like really high expectations for her palate. Yeah, we're really excited. We're like, we've done a lot of research both online and like asking other parents about how you can avoid like a picky eater. Because that's like a fear. Yeah. Because it would, yeah, it's a fear. It would break our hearts if like she just wanted, if she was scared of vegetables and just wanted to eat chicken nuggets. But there's really nothing you can, I mean, we'll love her regardless. Right. And I mean, you've done the research. I feel like, I don't know if this is true, but I've heard that like what the parent is eating during pregnancy is very much affects the baby's palate.

54:33And I imagine that just all the things that Sola is eating, like there's no way this kid is not going to come out craving. I don't even know why. Everything, you know? Craving durian. Craving durian. Honestly, that's going to be the first thing you're using. The Thermomix, is that what it's called? Yeah, the Thermomix. Well, I hope the experiments go well. And if you need like a human, an adult human to try them, I'm very, I'm very curious. You can start me with durian. I won't even care. Okay. And to close out, you know, this is taste and we talk a lot about guest taste. So I have a little like rapid fire taste check for you.

55:04So I'll throw some categories at you and you can just give me the first thing that comes to mind. Okay. Okay. Ready? Okay. Okay. East Coast oysters or West Coast oysters or Gulf Coast oysters? Ooh, that's tough. Okay. So I know these are quick. Are these just yes or no answers or can I give reason? You can tell me why. I can tell you why. Okay. So at the beginning of my career, I preferred West Coast oysters because they're smaller. They're less challenging. They have like a cleaner flavor, like less brine. And like it's just a more subtle flavor. So if you're like new to oysters, I would start with West Coast.

55:41But I'm like an experienced oyster eater at this point. So I'm East Coast all the way. East Coast. Okay. Hot Pockets or Pop-Tarts? Ooh, that's tough. tough so like growing I didn't really eat either of those growing up because they were they were American imports so they were very very expensive so like here like a hot hot pocket if it's like a dollar it's easy to to get because it's like oh it's junk food it's a dollar it's fine it's not a big deal but like it's tough to justify like my mom can justify spending like like$3 on something that she didn't consider like real food. Right. So I like had, I had both fairly recently and I have to go with a Pop-Tart.

56:28I am not a fan of Hot Pockets at all. Watch the Hot Pockets mystery menu episode. Yes. Oh, yes. For context. Not a fan of Hot Pockets at all. Pop-Tarts all the way and brown sugar Pop-Tarts specifically. Didn't you make like a Pop-Tart crust recently for something on Instagram? Am I making that up? Pop-Tart Pandauti. Pop-Tart Pandauti. Okay, we're not even rapid fire anymore. We gotta get back in it. We're just talking. Okay, go-to bodega snack. Go-to bodega snack. I like Fritos. Favorite New York City restaurant? Super Yority Burger. Favorite New York City bakery? Ooh, Cabra. Something you'll never make from scratch.

57:07Canolets Most underrated piece of kitchen equipment Okay. I think people need to throw away their non-sticks. They're useless. They don't give you a good sear and they don't, like, they kind of don't last forever. Cast iron. Cast iron is the way to go. Okay. Go-to diner order. Go-to diner order. I like, so Veselka is my go-to diner. So I like to go with two eggs over easy, latke, sausage, and challah toast. Any time of day? Any time of day. It sounds like a great diner order. And this has been a great conversation, Ham. Thanks so much for coming on. Thank you. Thanks for having me.

57:56See, Pam Zhang, this is Taste. Thank you for coming on the podcast. Thank you for having me. So how are you doing today? I'm doing good. Smelling intensely of garlic. So a little self-conscious about that. But other than that, I've had a great start to the day. I feel like if anything, you're just dressing for the occasion, smelling of garlic as we're about to talk about a food book. Yes. What's the source of the garlic? I just microplained a clove of garlic onto two fried eggs, which has become my go to breakfast this summer. I don't know why. Interesting. So it's raw garlic that's going on top.

58:26Yeah. But you know how when you microplane it like cooks in a second. So it's just yeah, it's somewhere halfway between raw and cooked. I'm into that. Something that I'm sometimes scared to mention is that I'm not an egg eater. So that's not something that I'm personally going to try, but maybe on top of something else, I would do that. Yeah, I know that the microplaner is often considered an overrated food instrument, but I still love it. No, I think it's rated appropriately. It just comes in handy so well. Yeah, I agree. And I'm really happy to have you on because I have been like so obsessed with your book, Land of Milk and Honey, and it hasn't been out at the time of recording.

59:00So there's been basically no one that I can talk to about it except for Shalia, our producer. So I was so excited to talk about the book. And to start, I'm just curious if you could tell me a little bit about how the idea came to you. Have you always been interested in writing about food? No, I actually grew up as a very picky eater and quite squeamish. It was a product of growing up in a very impoverished Chinese-American family where we just didn't eat meals out in restaurants. So, you know, my food borders were quite constrained. And I was just, for some reason, a kid who was icked out by like fat on meat.

59:36And it was really this period in my late teens, I think, after I'd gotten to college and there were sort of these months that I didn't have anything to do. And I started, for some reason, reading food blogs, a lot of them based in New York, actually. And it was actually through the food writing, these sort of narratives about food and sort of what kinds of worlds opened up for these people, some of them with similar backgrounds as me that got me into the idea of eating more than the act of eating itself. I love that. I feel like as someone that works in food myself, I definitely had Jonathan Gold, for an example, as like a food writer that I read growing up that turned beyond to the possibilities.

1:00:13Are there any writers or blogs that you want to shout out as being informative for you in that era? Yeah, there is this wonderful blog called, I think, The Girl Who Ate Everything. I don't even know who the actual writer is because it was really this like, you know, early 2000s era of blogging, very pure, like no sort of sponsored ads, no sort of self-promoting. And I just loved her because she sort of ate, you know, the Chinese food that I was accustomed to and incredibly exquisite, like Michelin level, like Nordic food in Europe with like equal aplomb and without any self-consciousness. I love that.

1:00:53And that also is what drew me to Jonathan Gold's writing is specifically the way that he would champion like immigrant-run strip mall restaurants in Los Angeles, but in the LA Times, like, and also maybe the next week he would be reviewing like a very fine dining restaurant. And I feel like that approach kind of comes across in this book as well in terms of the variety of food that you're talking about. So to me, that's an interesting through line. Yeah. So your first book was not really a food book in the same way. You liked eating food. You liked reading about food. What made you decide to want to write about food at such length?

1:01:24Yeah, this book was interestingly a product of the pandemic, though it's not exactly what I would call a pandemic book. It came out of my experiences living through this really bleak time in which I felt deeply disconnected from my body. You remember sort of early 2021, it was a time of so much chaos, important chaos in the world, George Floyd's murders and political upheaval and COVID. And I was spending a lot of my time trying to do my best to help with these causes. And I became quite impatient, I suppose, with the fact of having a body. I actually felt a lot of shame for having a body that, despite having food and shelter and my health, still wanted frivolous things like going out for a drink with a friend or eating a nice meal or traveling.

1:02:15And so there was this really transformative moment in that year when soon after we got vaccinated, I went out for my first meal out and I was meeting this old friend of mine who was a doctor in Seattle at the time. So you can only imagine what he had seen in those years. And, you know, we sat down at this Filipino restaurant called Musang. And the first part of the conversation was about how difficult things had been, what he was seeing on the floor at the hospital, all those things. And then there was just this moment when the food actually came to the table and everything just changed. The tenor of the conversation paused.

1:02:54And when we started eating, I could just see both of us fall out of our anxious brains, back into our bodies. And it was just like, oh, this is what it's for. This is what all the work, like the important work that we're doing is for. It's to be able to see the people you care about experience joy. It's to be able to share at this table. It's to be able to experience this gift of food prepared for you by somebody else that thinks to put things like peanut butter and shrimp paste together in a sauce and like opens the world a little bit for you and reminds you that there's more than illness and grief.

1:03:35I love that. And I think that's an experience that I relate to. I'm sure a lot of people listening to this remember their first meal or to me, I think it's the first dance floor that I was able to go back onto of that similar moment of being in your body and of having pleasure that makes you feel connected to other people. And this book really is, to me, a book about pleasure more than anything else. I'm curious, this meal that was so transformative for you, do you remember specific dishes or is it more just the overall experience? This cara cara braised short rib, I've had it so many times since and I think about it all the time.

1:04:07Does it hit in the same way? Absolutely. I'm glad. I was worried you were going to say I could never measure up, but I think that's a sign of a great restaurant. Every time I go to Thai Diner and I get their khao soi, I think this would be my last meal on earth. And I said that to a stranger sitting next to me last time, and then they didn't order it, and I was offended, honestly. They were probably scared of hurting you in case they didn't. Like, you know how sometimes when a waiter gives a really, really enthusiastic recommendation, I'm scared to order it because I'm like, what if I don't love it and I hurt you in your soul?

1:04:36Yeah, that is a very empathetic approach. I'll say that to myself. Something that really struck me reading this book is just the way you write about food. I think your food writing is so good. It's kind of like reading Gabrielle Hamilton, where I feel jealous that I have not written that in that way. And I wanted to just read a quote from the beginning of the book and talk about the idea behind it with you, if you don't mind me reading it. Go ahead. Would you rather read it? No, I'm actually delighted to hear it in somebody else's voice for once. Okay, no pressure. Chef had lost its meaning. Like lucky.

1:05:08Like fresh. Like soon. No saffron. No buffalo meat. No polished short grain rice. Dishes winked out from menus like extinguished stars as conservative nativist attitudes seized the few restaurants that remained open thanks to government subsidies. As they shut borders to refugees, so countries shut their palates to all but those cuisines deemed essential. In England, the shrinking supply of frozen fish was reserved for kippers, or gray renditions of cod and chips. And of course, a few atrociously expensive French preparations with which a diner might buy, along with sour wine, the illusion that she still lived in luxury.

1:05:46Back to stodgy safety, back to national dishes unchanged for hundreds of years. The loss of pesto should have come as no surprise in a world with no favas, no milkfish, no curry lane in London or Thai town in L.A. No fusion, no specials of the day, no truffles turned out like sheepish lovers from under the blankets of sod. We were lucky, those around me said. We survived. So I read that and it felt like too true, like that that could actually be a possibility. And I was curious about how you developed this idea of nativism returning to menus in an era where produce and food in general is just not accessible to people.

1:06:25Yeah, it was perhaps my reaction to this modern idea that I think is sometimes dispensed of food as soft power or that culinary diplomacy as possible, right? Kind of this fantasy that if we can set a beautiful multicultural table, we can create a beautiful multicultural society that sits around and like shares their troubles and all is good, right? I find this image sort of as disingenuous and facile as somebody saying, like, I can't be racist because I have black friends. For example, if you look at the ubiquity of Chinese American food in even the smallest towns in America, that did not save the Chinese American population from anti-Asian hate during the pandemic, right?

1:07:12I think that, unfortunately, in these moments of crisis, it does sometimes cause the surge in nationalism, the surge in, again, the question of what is essential. And oftentimes things like diversity are considered non-essential goods, right? So I was interested in kind of turning over the stone of this idea of multiculturalism and thinking, well, if disaster did come and the culinary world were to show its true colors, what if this illusion of our fuzzy multicultural table was one of the first ones to be shattered? Yeah, I think that it resonates because it is possible to imagine that. And what you're saying reminds me of a phrase that I saw.

1:07:54I don't know who originated this, but I definitely saw a lot of people that are like Asian American in the food world saying, we wish you loved us as much as you love our food when there was a big wave of anti-Asian hate. And I think it's interesting because on one level I can imagine, you know, white America revolting at the idea of there not being any more like spicy tuna rolls, you know, or something that is like a non like white American food because these foods are so widely embraced. And also because America doesn't have the same kind of longstanding food tradition as France, for example.

1:08:26But then at the same time, you think about the way that nativism approaches in other parts of culture, especially in a disaster situation like this. Maybe it isn't so far afield. I mean, think about Freedom Fries, right? Yeah. I mean, for anyone that doesn't know about this, like the renaming of French fries to be Freedom Fries, it's one step beyond that. It's a little more extreme. Right. But then you read it and you can picture that happening. And specifically when you talk about Los Angeles, L.A. plays such a big role in this book. And I grew up in L.A., so that resonates with me. Have you spent time in that city?

1:08:57It seems like you must have. Only really as a tourist, I feel like it's a city I don't know really well because I don't drive. So as a walker or someone dependent on either Uber or public transportation, I don't think you can understand the soul of the city. Right. Not like New York where you can walk everywhere. But you must have had some good food meals in L.A. to choose to focus on it in this kind of way. Yeah. I mean, I think L.A. is just like this fascinating place because it is this site of American culture. It's, you know, the center of Hollywood. It's this like lavishness and this glitz and glamour.

1:09:35But also right outside L.A. is this like an agricultural basket, right, where there are migrant laborers and the climate is so vastly different. Actually, the climate isn't that different because the climate is often awful in L.A. It's just that we have these like shiny air conditioned places to hide. Right. And I'm really interested in that contrast. I think it makes a lot of sense. And also if you spend time in L.A., especially if you're driving in and out of it, you're kind of aware of climate politics and how they relate to food in a different way. I think it's pretty common to see signs at maybe like almond farms that say they're against like water regulations and the way that like certain foods have already been politicized.

1:10:15in this current climate, like literal climate in terms of climate change, I think that's kind of on display in California in a way that maybe isn't in other parts of the country that aren't growing so much food and also aren't affected by drought in a similar way. Yeah, no, that's a great point. I have spent a lot of time in a car driving between San Francisco and LA and have definitely seen those signs. So maybe they were there in the back of my head as well. Right. And you weren't the one doing the driving, so you had time to linger on them a little more. So really, this is all kind of talking about food as a mechanism of power, which I think is maybe you talk about a little bit in this, not you, but one would talk about today in terms of truffles or these kind of expensive, hard to find foods.

1:10:55But in this situation, it's really almost all food that becomes expensive or hard to find. I'm curious, like in this scenario, like what are the foods that you would find yourself missing the most? Oh, that's easy to answer because I already miss them living in New York now. It's just really good, fresh produce. Like there are a couple months of the year. And right now, you know, it's August. So we're sort of still in that sweet spot where we can get really great local produce on the East Coast. But during the winters here, I miss produce so much. There's just nothing like West Coast produce. Is there a specific item that if you could have it in endless good supply, you would want?

1:11:33I think cherries. I think cherries are like that girl of all the summer fruits. They're such the perfect size to snack on and they're just so audaciously good when they're good. And they're like really sexy. There's something about the fact that they stain everything that they touch. Yeah. And also if you are like pitting them yourself, you're just kind of ripping into them and the juice is dripping. I've never used a cherry pitter. No, I don't think that's your MO. I feel like it's so much more like sensual based on what I've read in this book to be ripping into them instead. Yeah. So I want to get your thoughts on another thing that happens in the book.

1:12:07And I've been trying to avoid spoilers, so I don't think this is a big one. But there's a moment when this protagonist is faced with a test when she arrives at the research institute. That's going to be her new job. And you write that it's not a perfect French omelet, which she expects. Instead, it's flour, vanilla, eggs. And then something that you describe is as warm as skin, as yielding as a woman's inner thigh, strawberries, which I love that description. And I'm curious, What made you decide on that being the test? Well, as a Top Chef super fan, I think I can safely say that pastry challenges are often the most difficult one for chefs who aren't trained specifically in that area of expertise.

1:12:48I think that for someone who's not an expert in pastry, it's really hard to be creative and to innovate in that space, which maybe speaks a little bit to the situation that the chef finds herself in at this research community. I like that answer. And I also feel like being able to spotlight produce instead of like just eggs and butter, that would be in an omelet feels like a really special choice because produce is something that people have so much of an attachment to that is fleeting. It's not around for as much time. Maybe it would have been gone sooner than eggs. Yeah. Something else that I like about the book is that it's about the end of the world, but it has so much pleasure and life and beauty in it, even that strawberry description.

1:13:30How much did you think about wanting to have that duality? And how did you kind of focus on having both of those in one book? I think that every book that I write changes me to some degree. I never know exactly what I'm writing about when I begin. And the course of working on this novel made me realize that we really need to take pleasure seriously if we intend to survive, right? Right. Thinking back to sort of the watershed that was the pandemic where we were focused on what is essential. I think we all realize that, though, things like food, water, health are essential to live on a day to day, week by week, year to year basis in order to survive the entire scope of a life.

1:14:13You need other things. You need beauty. You need art. You need pleasure. Right. It's sort of what is the point of living with only the essentials? And as someone who suffers from depression, it's not a rhetorical question, right? It is really a crucial beating question. And so it became really important for me in this book to take pleasure very seriously and to hold it as sacred, perhaps. I like that idea. Do you feel like there are any moments in the book that that kind of especially rings true for you? a little bit after that moment that you mentioned where the chef is working with strawberries and she puts one in her mouth for the first time after several years of not having any fruit and it's just this sensual explosion where it is about the taste of that fruit but it's also about this sort of collapse of time and memory and all the you know people that she's loved and eaten strawberries with all the experiences that she's had it's like a whole world in a bite and I think that kind of says everything that I want to say about the importance and the possibility of pleasure I like that moment a lot too I think as someone who is dramatic every summer when I have like my first tomato of the year thinking about it being years before I have the first good tomato it's a very like sombering realization.

1:15:40I feel like I had to shut the book for a little bit after that and then like go eat a stone fruit or something as soon as I could. Do you like dry farm tomatoes? I don't know if I know what that is. Like greenhouse tomatoes? Ooh, now you're making me realize I don't know the exact definition, but you can get them sometimes in California in the farmer's markets at certain times of year. But it's a tomato that I think is grown with less water. So I think it makes it the flavor more concentrated because there's less juice in the tomato itself. It's like smaller, but like packed with flavor. Whoa.

1:16:11I've never had those before, but it reminds me of the TriStar strawberries that you can get on the East Coast that are maybe like half the size of the California strawberries I grew up with, but they're so sweet because that flavor is just concentrated and they're less watery. It's very special. Yeah, absolutely. I have a friend in California who every time it's dry farm tomato season, she will literally go out and buy like five or 10 pounds of it. Okay, I'm going to California soon. I'm going to have to see if it's still happening. And if I will, I'll report back to you. Yeah, I wish you all the best.

1:16:42So I'm curious, like after writing so much about food, what do you think is the secret to good food writing? Eroticism and constraint. I think when I set out to write a good food scene, I'm not trying to be exhaustive in my descriptions, which was, I think, my initial impulse. I'm trying to be evocative, right? The goal is actually not to describe perfectly a precise meal that a character has had. It's to put enough on the page that the reader is then thinking of all the great meals they've had that are similar of a meal they want to eat that is like that meal, right? It's putting this wanting in their mouths.

1:17:20Yeah, I get that as a reader. I was very hungry reading this book. Great. And you've mentioned that you're a Top Chef super fan. And how did you get the knowledge to be writing these like fine dining scenes, especially these very like chef-y kitchen scenes? Yeah, so I've watched every single of Top Chef, many of them more than once. Wow. What's the appeal for you? You know, it's so funny. I think I got turned on to them when I was first in college. And so this was soon after my whole like reading food blogs. And I kind of just like wanted more of that stuff. And I still couldn't afford to eat nice meals out.

1:17:52So I would like rush home to my dorm after like a hard day in the trenches of academia and like eat my terrible like dining hall takeout food while watching Top Chef. And it just made the food I was eating taste better to imagine that possibility. So a lot of Top Chef was watched. I also read quite a few chef memoirs, including Gabrielle Hamilton's, which I really, really adore and is in the acknowledgments of this book. I love MFK Fisher. I think she is like one of the great American food writers. And I have had quite a few fine dining experiences myself. My first job out of college was working as a copywriter in San Francisco Tech during sort of the golden bubble of the tech boom.

1:18:38And so it was the kind of atmosphere where for a team dinner, we would go out to Atelier Crenn. Wow. Yeah, I know. And I was incredibly lucky to have these experiences. And at the same time, it was sort of eye-opening because sometimes you would go out to like Atelier Crenn or Banu and you would see at the next table these like tech bros in their hoodies and in their sandals. And not that you can't wear those to a fine dining establishment, but what I'm trying to say is you could see that they just didn't actually care about the food at all. To them, it was just another sort of status symbol. and so that got the wheels turning as well.

1:19:20I find that very interesting. What about like wearing sandals and a hoodie meant that they didn't care about the food? It was that for example there would be certain establishments where that was not the dress code right so they would have made the wait staff uncomfortable because they have to come in and say something they have to kind of like offer these these people appropriate attire and they have to do that like awkward dance of power where it's like you are the paying customer, you have the power. I have to tell you, you're not abiding by the rules, but how do I do it in a way that doesn't piss you off, right?

1:19:51It was this like carelessness of the attitude. And you could just see it in everything from the clothing to the way they like didn't finish their food or didn't listen to sort of like the full description of what was being placed on the table. Yeah, I think that makes sense. And it's kind of something that I see reflected in this book in the way that this chef is, she's in a very unusual position in terms of how she's serving these guests and the way that she views them or like watches them eat like you are very aware of this dynamic between not only someone that's serving this beautiful beautifully made food but also it's with ingredients that are the only of its kind on earth maybe or maybe that even haven't even been on earth before and so all of those dynamics are even more heightened in terms to like do these people appreciate it do they deserve it in the first place.

1:20:37Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, I just want to say that I'm not one for being fussy about fine dining. I actually like my favorite like Michelin starred restaurants are the ones where I've like licked the plate and I can see the waitstaff like grinning in the back. So it's truly not about like the dress code. It's just everything that it symbolizes sometimes. Right. Did you talk to any like chefs or cooks as well? I feel like the way you write about chefs liking to smoke cigarettes to me, that felt like a very insider observation. I had a couple of chef friends who looked over the manuscript for me after it was done.

1:21:12But in the creation phase of any book, I tried to keep it sort of private. And again, I read all these memoirs and watched all these shows to get that insider. But it's hard to have like another distinct voice in your head when you're in the process of drafting. Definitely. And then you show it to them afterwards as a vibe check and they must have loved it, I imagine. I think so. Yeah. So after writing this, do you look at restaurants differently when you go out to eat or maybe farms, farmers markets? I think that I don't know if it was a product of writing this book or a product of just living through the pandemic, but I'm so much more conscious of the atmosphere of a restaurant now.

1:21:50I think that, you know, again, growing up without much money, there was a whole period of my life when I was like really conscious of the value of just the food on the plate. I was like, why would I pay whatever, like$80 to eat a chicken, right? But now I'm just so much more conscious of that community element of a restaurant, how the right restaurants can make you feel cared for, of who else is in the room, of the comfort level of everyone there, of everything that's not just about the food on the plate, just the entire apparatus that supports it. I think that makes sense. And it makes me think about the way that you write about the restaurant kitchen space in the book at this institute, because it's signaling wealth in all of these ways.

1:22:33But there are all of these, you know, one-way mirrors, like things that are not quite as they seem. It made me a little, I wouldn't say paranoid, but now when I got to eat, I'm thinking more about like, you know, what's on the other side that I can't see. Yeah, I think there are good questions for all of us to ask ourselves. Not just in restaurants, but probably like everywhere we go. Yeah, yeah. So you mentioned your acknowledgement section before. Your acknowledgement section is maybe like 80 % restaurant dishes. It's definitely more than I've ever seen before. Can you like unpack that a little bit for me?

1:23:03I mean, it was just like one of the most fun things for me to do in this book. I think that a lot of writers, we really, a lot of fiction writers, we really hate talking about our books, but we love talking about things we've read, things we've consumed that fed us. And usually we talk about it in a literary sense, or maybe we also talk about movies or music. But I was just writing this acknowledgments section, and I realized that it would be a lie to not just put the food in here. So much of what I've been eating over the past, you know, 30 years of my life really played a role in the formation of this novel.

1:23:38And so the acknowledgments list, it isn't exactly a list of like my favorite restaurants or like the best restaurants across the world. But it is a kind of private notebook of places that really changed the way I thought about food. And, you know, that includes rotisserie chickens at Costco. And it includes, right, like a particular beautiful grain dish at Atelier Crenn. So you have your book in front of you. Would you mind maybe calling out a couple of the dishes and telling me a little bit about them? Okay, this will be fun. Yeah, it's like a little quick game. Okay, so Boudig sliced turkey.

1:24:15One of my favorite snacks to this day is just sliced deli meat turkey. It was something I would steal from the fridge growing up in Kentucky. It was something that was like extremely like American, like in all caps to me and something my parents only bought on sale when it was maybe five for a dollar. And it's absolutely disgusting. It tastes like a salt lick. And it's also something that was so, so deeply important to me. I have a friend, the writer and former restaurant critic at the San Francisco Chronicle, Soleil Ho, who wrote this incredible piece years and years and years ago in which they coined the term assimilation food to talk about all these immigrant communities that will do things like eat sliced deli meat turkey on rice or, you know, mix even like the original assimilation food of spam.

1:25:09Yeah. And those are just like really, really formative foods for me. Would you eat it just, would you roll it up? Would you eat it flat? Hmm. I think I alternated between rolling it up and eating it flat just so, you know, I got a little bit of a change in there. Textural variation. Textural variation. God, oh no, this is going to have me demonstrate on air my non-existent pronunciation of French. So Polar des Brests in Vessey at La Berger du Pont de Cologne in Lyon. So it's this like famous restaurant where they do this incredibly elaborate dish of an entire chicken that is stuffed with truffles and steamed in a bath of expensive liqueur.

1:25:56Wow. And they cut it and carve it table side. It's, you know, that kind of like classical nouveau French preparation that you really cannot do with a giant kitchen staff and all these specialized tools. And it's delicious. And I was, when I went to eat it, this was actually part of like explicit research for the book. When I went to eat it at this restaurant in Lyon, I was fully expecting not to like it. And, you know, expecting that I would write it off as this like silly rich person food. But it was delicious and delicious in a way I didn't expect where the chicken was kind of tough in a way that you don't get in America, right?

1:26:38Because we're so fixated on having this like completely bland sponge of a food. But chicken that is often grown kind of organically without hormones and not sort of blown up to these ridiculous proportions is a little bit tough. It should have chew as well as flavor. I love that. And that reminds me of this interesting thing in the book where the chef is, she specializes in French food. Did you like French food ahead of time? And what made you decide to have that be the focus? You know, my first time probably eating French food, I don't even remember the meal because I was so nervous about the environment.

1:27:21Um, I, I think maybe we went out to a French restaurant, um, to celebrate my college graduation and my family from China had come over and this was an environment that was new to all of us. And I was just so conscious of feeling out of place that I literally don't remember what we ate or what it tasted like. Um, but at the same time, French food is just like this constant undercurrent in all of cooking, right? Even great non-French chefs will still talk about French training. And it felt like something you kind of have to eat to understand modern food today for good or for ill. And so I think that I don't put it on a pedestal.

1:28:04I think of the European cuisines, Italian is actually probably my favorite, but there are, I do appreciate what it has done for the culinary world. Yeah. And I think definitely in the context of this book where we are talking about people, elites in power, returning to kind of more like baser instincts or appreciations, French food still has a chokehold on food culture at large around the world. And it makes sense that like chefs would turn to French food as almost like a safety mechanism, right? That like people are going to be wanting to eat this more than other cuisines. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that for me.

1:28:40My favorite parts of French cuisine are like the simplest ones. I like peasant foods, right? I like cassoulet. I like just straight up cheese. I mean, who does not love cheese? Yeah. Straight up cheese is like enough on its own probably. Yeah. It's interesting because I was just in Paris last month and some of the best meals that I had were all like Asian French chefs that are doing kind of this intermingling of fusion cuisine that you almost kind of nod to at the end of your book when you're talking about like new trends in food. But that was something that I was not expecting because I haven't been to France in maybe a decade.

1:29:14And it was so delicious and also just like really fun as a diner. Yeah, you can't throw a stone in Paris without hitting a Japanese French chef these days. Or just like, and also like straight up boba places everywhere, like Asian food everywhere. My girlfriend that I was with is Taiwanese and we were kind of shocked by how much Asian food was everywhere, but we had a great time eating all of it you know amazing okay i want to ask you about one more in the acknowledgement section and maybe i can pick it okay go ahead i want to ask about the mappo lasagna at nightshade in los angeles i am obsessed with that dish um it's a dish by a winner of top chef may lin um it was a restaurant that unfortunately closed during the pandemic and she did this exquisite sort of like beautiful uh yeah kind of fusion-y I guess Chinese um and French inflected cuisine and I just have been waiting every day for her to open nightshade again or open a new restaurant is it's like a map of tofu lasagna is the flavoring or what's the deal how do you describe it I don't even so it's It's a lasagna that has like a bazillion layers and it has ground meat that is flavored in that Mapua way with the, you know, the fruity Sichuan peppercorn.

1:30:33And it's sort of laid flat on its side. So you see the kind of mill feel of the construction. And it's just exquisite. Wow. Okay. Well, I'm crossing my fingers that that dish comes back in some form as well. and to close you know this is taste and we were talking about our guest's taste so i have a little like rapid fire taste check for you so i'll throw out like a category and you can just tell me what comes to mind okay um go to bodega snack um sour cream and cheddar ruffles go to writing snack um probably anything crispy and savory that i can eat with one hand so ruffles yeah popcorn sometimes.

1:31:11Your favorite cookbook? I don't read cookbooks. Whoa. Okay. Favorite New York City restaurant? The answer is so seasonal. And so because we're in the height of summer, I probably have to say Via Corotta because what is a better outdoor table with a more perfect spritz and a more perfect salad? And also Falansai right now in Brooklyn, which has the most exquisite jackfruit and cashew and chia dessert. Whoa. Favorite New York City bookstore? You and Me books favorite reading snack hmm maybe apples most underrated piece of kitchen equipment a butcher knife most overrated ingredient truffles that's what everyone says i know it's true um to close your favorite food scene in literature um i think i have to reach all the way back in childhood every food scene in red wall the series about the like you know little fighting mice and otters.

1:32:07What kind of food are they eating? Do you remember? Oh my God. My Martha's watering right now, just think about it. They're eating like pasties and like oat farls and like whole fish from the river. And it's just, it's like this glorious seasonal bounty. Okay, I'm going to have to revisit that one. Pam, this was so much fun. Thank you for coming on. Thank you.

1:32:31This is Taste is hosted by Matt Rodbard and me, Eliza Abarbanel. The show is produced by Shalia Harris and Pat Stango and edited by Clayton Gumbert. Theme music by Steve Rydell. Visit Taste Online at tastecooking.com and make sure to subscribe to our newsletter for updates on all cool things happening.