455: It’s Jell-O But Better with Oddball’s Sophia Cheng

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0:31I was a traveling Jell-O saleswoman with a huge cooler because I needed a test. And it's a really rare moment in time, right? Because even if you're in stores, you won't get this opportunity of watching how people react to your product. That was what informed so much of the reformulation and the feedback that we got for the product. This is Taste. I'm your host, Matt Rodbarg.

1:18West trade show, where she was hustling the pouches of berry, mango, and grape oddballs out of her backpack. I was impressed with her hustle and invited her into the studio to talk about her journey to bringing this traditional Asian dessert to the masses. I love the product and catching up with the company's founder. I hope you enjoy this conversation.

1:49Sophia Chang, welcome. This is Taste. How are you? Oh, I'm so good. I'm here. Where else could I want to be? We're in the studio and we're talking oddball. Now, we met at Expo West, a big trade show that was in like a cursed part of Southern California. We met because we were introduced by Andrea Hernandez, awesome from SnackShot. She's been on the show. And then we really met on the floor of the show when you and I had a meeting that was like non-official. Like you were literally carrying around Oddball in a backpack and you're like, hey, Matt, let's meet up. Love that. Yeah. So I do that for every trade show that we go to.

2:29So Expo East, Expo West, fancy food show, no matter how big and how small. And as you know, Expo West is the biggest one. Right. And I am always carrying a huge backpack cooler with ice packs and spoons and the Oddballs. Right. And most of the time it's like 50 or 60. It was really heavy. And I do that because we can't afford a booth, right? It's extremely expensive and it's cost prohibitive to small brands to have a booth at these shows, right? They usually cost tens of thousands of dollars. And whereas for me, like what I prefer to do is also to have the mobility, right? It's like I can strap on a backpack, meet people like yourself.

3:03I'm meeting with buyers. I'm meeting with investors. I pack my days with these meetings. And it's really exhausting. But you got to do what you got to do, right? You've got to do what you've got to do. But I think it actually endears you to media and also potential buyers, like the biggies at Whole Foods, Gelson's, et cetera, because they love to see a founder who's out there doing the work. Now, I feel like we've teased out the project. You've talked about spoons. You've talked about backpack and ice. Tell us, what is Oddball exactly? So that's a very good question. I get that a lot. So I would say the closest comparison we have in the U.S.

3:43would be a Jell-O, right? But it's not quite a Jell-O either. And also I can't use Jell-O, right? Because Jell-O is trademarked. It's a name. It's not a category. So while we figure out what we're going to call this product, actually, we're going to call it an oddball. There's the name. There's the name. But what it is concretely, I always say, think of it as the intersection of three things, right? A fruit snack, a dull fruit cup, and a Jell-O. So it has a consistency and a texture and a funness of a Jell-O, but it has the RTBs of a dull fruit cup. Do you remember those? Yeah, of course. And then it has the occasion or the eating occasion of a fruit snack, so a fruit gummy.

4:26Yeah, so it's like a snack that can be done in the morning too. It can be done in the evening, et cetera. It's like a dessert. But really backing up a little bit, these solids, these gelatins, we're not going to use the big J word because, you know, we don't want big J coming after us. Joking. It's like a konjac. Like it has in East Asia and actually all through Asia, there's a big there's a tradition of this food. It's well before Bill Cosby did his thing. There was this tradition. So I feel you're channeling that as well. Yeah. So when I first came here to the U.S., right, because I didn't come here until college and I went to school in Maine, a really small school in Maine, I thought it was really weird that the only brand of jelly that they had was Jell-O.

5:11And honestly, I was the only one who was eating the Jell-O in a cafeteria, like me and my roommate. But it was really strange to me because growing up abroad, I'd never really seen Jell-O, right? I'd seen different variations of jelly, right? So like in Italy, it's panna cotta. In France, it's flan. And in Singapore, it's agar agar. And Japan is kantan. And so I was used to so many different forms of jelly, but jello. So I've never really seen the powdered form, actually. So when I came here and I saw that, oh, that's actually the only form of jelly that most Americans know, my mind was blown.

5:46Because it's such a globally well-known category of food. Whereas here, it's only the one brand, which is jello. Yeah, and we associate with hospitals, with shots at the frat party. And there's kind of a narrow lens for jellos. But of course, as you mentioned, all the cultures, it's a beautiful dessert with natural flavors, savory flavors, coffee flavors, all over the map. And I want to get a sense of the category you're entering. You're calling it a new type of snacking. You're like, there's like one type of snacking that's not good, but my type of snacking is. Talk about that a bit. I love that.

6:24Right. So I want to talk a little bit about the evolution of snacking as I see it, right? Let's go there. Yeah, let's get there. Let's get there. And I don't want to bore you or anything. There's no boring. Stop me if I'm just ranting on about it because I can go on about snacks forever, right? So as I see it, we have the first generation of snacks, right? And that's the ultra processed junk food, right? These are your Doritos, your Lays, your Cheeses, basically all the good stuff, right? Like, I personally love that. Like, that's why I ended up in the Snags, right? I was feeling a little, like, sinking feeling when you're like, are you going to come for Doritos?

6:59Because, like, I like Doritos, man. No, Matt, come on. We talked about this. Like, I love a bag of Flaming Hot Cheetos. Like, I'm that girl. But we all know that, like, they're ultra-processed food, junk food, right? A lot of times they're made out of ingredients that you literally have to pull a chemistry textbook to pronounce. A lot of things have glycerin. What's glycerin? It sounds like a weapon. But I don't think there's any debate that the ultra processed junk food is not good for you. And we've gotten pretty used to eating that. And I think we went through a period of where we overcorrected, which leads us to the second generation as I see it and what I call the catfish food.

7:41And I completely made this term up. Love it. Do you know what I'm talking about when I say catfish food? I mean, I think about the MTV TV show. I think about like, you know, being fooled. Right. Exactly. But tell me a little bit more. Right. So catfish food to me is a food that's pretending to be another food or a type of food that's making a health claim that it doesn't have. Right. So, for example, and I don't want to be like pointing fingers at anyone because there's a lot of good examples of catfish food out there as well. But I think a lot of people associate what I call catfish food with plant based alternatives or frankenfood.

8:17Right. And so these are things like Impossible or Beyond. Those were the early examples. Right. Where there's a lot of initial thinking and consumers thought that it was good for you. Right. And then everything came out about, you know, a lot of the bad health claims. Right. Or another example, it's like Poppy, right? And I'm only using Poppy as an example because I personally drink a lot of Poppy. Okay. Yeah. So I have a subscription to Poppy. I'm an Olipop guy. Just saying that. Okay. Okay. Well, can we be friends? Yeah. I think we can be friends. But let's move on. I don't want this to get negative.

8:52I could go all off on Poppy. Yeah. And it's not negative at all because I think it's a great product, right? I drink it as a healthy soda, right? It has cleaner and better ingredients and it's lower sugar. And I used to drink a lot of Diet Coke and I replaced it with Diet Coke. But a lot of people were drinking it thinking that there's prebiotic to it. And so that's what I'm saying with the false health claims. And so now they're in a little bit of trouble for it. But I think where I always say is that as consumers, we're not fooled, but we're taught to think that we can eat a whole pint of ice cream but not gain weight.

9:31and beyond not gaining weight, we can also have the health, wealth and beauty to it, right? It can make you like 10 times smarter in like IQ or whatever rather than just letting food be what it is. And so I think it was through this realization that I felt like I was getting catfished by my food that led me to start thinking about, okay, what is that next generation of snacking look like, right? And this is nothing groundbreaking, right? I'm not gonna say that I invented this or anything. It simply was just from my childhood of growing up in Southeast Asia, right? So I grew up in Singapore and I grew up in Hong Kong and food is very different, right?

10:07And eating culture is also very different too, right? And you would know this. And to me, like when I think back at how I snacked, right? It was what I call real snacking. So - You're calling this category real snacking. Yes, and again, I'm making this up. Yeah, I love it though. I love catfish food and I like real snacking. These are great. Sophia, these are great terms that we're gonna maybe use on the show. I like it. Yeah, I would love for you to use that show, right? Because it's really hard to explain something that's a little bit abstract, right? And so real snacking to me, what I remember from growing up with my family, and I don't want to speak for every Asian out there too, right?

10:41Is roasted seaweed, right? It's different types of fruit snacks. It's dried squid, right? Right. And to me, those are all based on a real food versus some form of chemicals and corn. Right. And I'm not going to say that they're not processed. Right. But they're not ultra processed. They're really processed. And so to me, it's really about bringing that concept because that was so missing in my life because I love snacking and junk food so much. Yeah. And it's really about the concept of real snacking. So let's take that ethic and transfer it to this category that is like a little bit of Dole Cup, a little bit of snacking, Dorito style, definitely a lot of Jell-O.

11:23How do you make a product that tastes good, that has a lot of flavor, that has this texture and make it feel like it's real snacking, it's fresh and it feels really in line with this ethic that you're talking about? Yeah, and I think it's a million dollar question, right? Because it's so difficult. And I think the reason why, and this is through my own journey of building Oddball and doing Oddball 2 of discovery, is the reality of our food system, right? And the reality of food manufacturing. And the reason why, and I don't think there's a lack of people who want to be doing this, right? Again, it's not a novel concept.

12:03It's not anything innovative, not innovative, but it's not a completely mind-blowing concept, right? We all want to be eating on real food. But the way that the U.S. manufacturing system is set up is it's built and it's meant for food that's meant to last very, very long. Right. Which is the antithesis of how, you know, I want to be eating or snacking. Right. And so for us, like it's it's been a it's been a real journey. It's been a real challenge because our palates are also so used to the engineering of the flavor burst. Right. Of sweetness, of saltiness, of fatness. but what I really wanted to do is to bring back what is naturally sweet right I look at what is nature's candy right it's fruit it's dried apricots right exactly it's dried apricots it's mango it's it's fruits right and that's how I grew up eating dessert that's how I grew up snacking as well and I kind of forgot it right yeah moment let's get into the flavors of oddball because I feel like that's an important distinction when you launch you you gotta like have a statement like these flavors and really I sampled some, but that was back in the spring.

13:11And, you know, you'll be launching into like the rollout and you have some exciting news to share about where we can find you guys. But what are the flavors that you're working with right now? So we're working with a mango. So that's our hero because it's based off of my favorite dessert, which is the mango coconut agar agar from Singapore and Thailand. And then we have the pink grapefruit, double berry. Pink grapefruit. Pink grapefruit. Oh, so grapefruit is like a big, that's an amazing flavor profile because, you know, you go back 10 years even and like grapefruit is like considered like too sour.

13:46Oh, yes. But now, oh my gosh, with like the rise of Campari and the rise of like these mezcals, I'm just thinking of those spirits. Grapefruit, that flavor is really big now. Yes. So grapefruit, you know, and to be clear, like our positioning has always been mass, right? We want to be a mass product. And I can get into this later, right? But I think it's really important. The accessibility of food like this is important to me for everyone, right? And pink grapefruit has always been contentious, both from an R &D perspective and from a sales perspective, right? Because it's still a little bitter, but it has such an incredible flavor journey, right?

14:28It has that flavor journey of a real delicious grapefruit is sweet. and then bitter and then tangy and then backs to sweet again, right? And it's a really unique flavor journey that we were working towards and it's hard to develop, right? But we're going to launch with it because I really think that there is a group of people that will really appreciate how true to a real grapefruit this product is. Yes, me, one of them. So great. What else are you launching with? So we have a double berry and it starts with the blueberry note and ends with the raspberry note. Love that. And the last one is a Concord grape, which I think it's very true to a Concord grape where it's a little dry.

15:09So that one, it's also a little challenging because we're so used to grape-flavored things that are artificial grape-flavored things. So we're used to cough syrup being grape-flavored. We're used to a lot of grape-flavored candy that actually doesn't taste like grape. so for us to be try to be bold right and to bring out that concord grape flavor it's not going to be for everyone yeah right but it's true to what it is i can't wait to try this new iteration of oddball because i feel like i just got a little little taste on the floor um are these shelf stable how does that work like are you selling them in the cold are they on the shelf because i feel like that's going to be an interesting distinction here yeah so we will be selling them in both.

16:00We belong, I believe we belong in two different sets, right? So one is the refrigerated dessert set where it's right next to Dairy. And that's a really interesting set because it's not as old as the other sets, right? Dairy has been around for a while, whereas refrigerated dessert has, you know, all the new exciting brands, right? You have the Midday Squares, you have the Perfect Bars, you have the Honey Mamas, which I love, right? It's like that indulgent set where it's a fresher dessert set. Like dessert. God love bidet squares. I'm like super on that one. Yeah, you're on that wavelength. That's my spot.

16:33Yeah. Honeymaw is yours. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Honeymaw is mine. So that's going to be one of the sets that we belong in, which is refrigerated, right? And then the other, which we're getting a lot of momentum and excitement for, is the lunchbox essentials. And that's a shelf stable set. That's going to be a really cool moment then. And so I feel back to school, like being there ready for like parents who want to give their kids a sweet indulgence, but use natural products. How do you think about that word natural? How does that work into your equation? I know you're kind of shifting now. You're feeling like this is like a tough question.

17:09I just sprung it on you. I know it is a tough question, but how do you answer that? Yeah, and I'm not going to sugarcoat anything, right? Pun intended. Yeah, right. Pun intended. But I think that the claim all natural has been so diluted. Yeah. Right. And I have to say, like, I think going through this process myself. Right. There's a reason why this word has been so diluted, because it's really like what does all natural really mean? Right. Like all natural to some people and to a lot of people and even to me included. Right. It's like it should be an apple. Right. An apple from the apple farm and an orange or, you know, like fish.

17:49Right. Like we just like anything that's not in a plastic bag. And I think more and more, that's what I'm beginning to think, too, is a real all natural should not exist in a plastic bag. Yeah. Right. And at the end of the day, we are a package product. So I don't know. It's controversial. I love that you acknowledge the challenges and I like the ethic. I like the idea that, you know, all natural in a plastic bag. Rethink that sometimes when you're when these companies are making that hard claim. I want to go back to your career because it's cool. You moved to the States and you worked in managing consulting, which is a really competitive world.

18:25You also worked for Ray Dalio, who's kind of a legendary figure in finance, a really, I would say, colorful character. I'm choosing my words wisely with this guy. But really a lot's been written about him. And honestly, you worked in his family office. So you actually had a lot of time with Ray. And let me ask you, did this teach you, I'm going to quote Bojack Horseman from, you know, Vincent Adalman from Bojack Horseman, like doing a business? Does it teach you how to do a business working for this guy? Yeah, I mean, you know, I learned a lot, right? And the core of what principles and Bridgewater was, you know, was about was radical transparency and radical truth, right?

19:11And so the concept of radical truth and radical transparency, I don't need to explain that, right? But obviously, there are values that I abide by. Otherwise, like, I wouldn't be willing to, so willing to work at such a difficult environment, right? And a lot of people say I'm very frank, right? My husband calls me frank all the time. But that's how I like to live my life, right? I appreciate when people tell me the truth without the compliment sandwich or whatever you call it. And as a favor back, I will tell you the truth back, right? But I think what and how radical truth is manifested and executed is through radical feedback.

19:48And this is nothing secret or anything. It's been written about many times over the Internet or even at books and anything. But when you're working at Bridgewater or the family office or anywhere, you have tools like the Dot Collector. Right. And do you know about this? I've heard the name referenced in like a podcast, but I don't know what it is exactly. So explain it. OK, so we all had an iPad and the iPad carried all these tools that we all used. And one of them is called dot collector. And what the dot collector is, it's a set of 60 or 70, I don't even remember now, attributes that you're constantly rating each other on.

20:29So, for example, Matt and I just got out of a discussion. Afterwards, I'll be rating you. OK, like it could be synthesis or higher level thinking. And the idea is over time, you're collecting all these feedback and data around yourself. and the concept here is that you are understanding and you have a mirror of who you are of the good and the bad you know ugly and beautiful and so you're improving over time where you think you you are not doing so good in or like doing well in right so anyway um i think this concept of radical feedback has really shaped my own journey right and even going and tying back to oddball because that is how i've always approached oddball is the constant testing and feedback Right.

21:12And I think it's so important in any business you do, especially in consumer, because in consumer, it's easy for you to fall into an area where you think that you as a consumer know it all for everyone else. I fully agree with that. I think that's like a trap for a founder. Exactly. To assume you know who your customer is, your customer will be. You hear founders talk about that a lot on shows, but you're not that way. Oh, I try to not be. Yeah. And that's, you know, I don't know if I told you the story of how we got started. And for a year when I was working at Estee Lauder, I wanted to test.

21:51Right. And so I was a traveling yellow saleswoman with a huge cooler, you know, hauling them every day after work, weekends after work, you know, with my husband helping move like this 80 pound cooler because I needed to test. And it's a really rare moment in time, right? Because even if you're in stores, you won't get this opportunity of watching how people react to your product. And that was what informed so much of the reformulation and the feedback that we got for the product. What was the feedback that made you change up a portion of the formula? Was there some note that you got that really sunk in and you made the change?

22:26The texture. Not jello enough? Not jello enough. Yeah. It was not jello enough. So the original formula was made out of all agar. Agar was the source of the inspiration for all this, right? Because in Asia, we don't use gelatin. We use konjac. We use agar. We use, you know, mostly - Which are plant-based versus gelatin is not. Exactly. And the whole point here, what I'm also trying to say is that I'm not trying to be a better for you jello, right? This is what jello, I believe, should have been from the very beginning. Anyway, so the original version was agar, and agar is brittle, right? And so it was too firm.

23:05And I realized that for this product to ever have traction, it needed to be close to the jello texture. It's that jiggly, wobbly, almost melt-in-the-mouth sensation, right? And you made the adjustment. So what I'm going to taste now when I get a sample will be closer to jello, you feel? I think it's close, but to me it's elevated. So the way I would describe it is it's almost like it's a blend of a Jell-O and a Mochi. Oh, sick. I like that a lot. That's more up my alley than a Jell-O cup. Back to working at Bridgewater and for Ray. Okay, you're working in this office with a billionaire family.

23:55what's food like when you're working at Bridgewater and you're working in the family office? What is food? Are you guys having some good meals? I think we were really well taken care of. But, you know, I worked in, we worked in Westport, Connecticut, right? That's where the office is. So I was commuting every day for four hours between New York and Westport. Also, I can't drive. Oh, yeah. I don't know how to drive. So when we're on a campus, which is where the office is, I can't go anywhere. I can only eat whatever they provide you with. You see where I'm going? Yeah, I just see where you're going.

24:29So, I mean, so you're very intimate with their food service. I'm very intimate with their food service. And they try to make it exciting. You know, they have like Indian food on Tuesdays. And, you know, they have like some holiday stuff. But by and large, like it's pretty similar things every day, right? It wasn't like when I was in consulting where, you know, I get to have like lavish meals a lot of times. and, you know. Do you miss working there in that environment? No, because I love this so much. You love being a founder. Mm-hmm. Hustling to get this off the ground. Let's talk about that. So you've got this product.

25:06We've, like, outlined Oddball. We've got the flavors in our heads. I think a lot of the listeners are like, yeah, I want to try that out. Now, obviously, you're going to direct to consumer channels. I'm sure you can order it on your website. I'll link to the show notes. There's a way to buy it, but that's not really how it all works. When you want to go mass, you need to work with retailers. Sophia, how are you pitching at this point in the journey of Oddball? How are you pitching the buyers? How are you getting on their radar? And what can you tell us about your rollout locally, nationally, etc.?

25:38Yeah, that's a very good question and a complex one too, right? I think it's very, very difficult for a small food brand to get shelf space. and that's the hurdle, right? Getting shelf space. For us, I never knew where this was going from the beginning, right? Because I honestly had a great job at Estee Lauder, which was my previous employer. And I thought that we're going to go into some bodegas and test from there. But I started, well, two things happened. One is I started doing pitch competitions, which I was very good at. And the second thing is I brought on an incredible person. Her name is Haley.