462: Building an Apron Empire with Ellen Marie Bennett

23:35As someone who has had many bad New York City apartments with bad kitchens, I love watching this show. and I'm so curious what made you want to do a kind of kitchen renovation show in the first place. You know, I totally believe in making things come to life when you see them in your head. It's like one of my greatest joys is to imagine it and then see it appear. And I have had this image in my head of this show for, I kid you not, 12 plus years. I just, I knew it had to do with food. I knew it had to be in the kitchen and I knew it was going to make people feel more confident, which is kind of the premise of Headley and Men.

24:10It's like to inspire confidence and creativity in the kitchen. And I thought, God, what? How cool would it be if I could go into someone's home and redesign it? And as the years went by, I met Andrew Zimmer many, many moons ago, like I think year one of Hedley and Bennett. We hit it off. We've been friends ever since. And we were always like, we're going to do something together one day. And we looked each other in the wide of the eye and we like made that decision and planted that seed. And I think it's important for, you know, entrepreneurs and frankly, anybody with a dream to just remember that it takes a long time and it's a windy ass road.

24:47Like that was in 2011, let's say 2012. Now we're in 2024 and it finally came out. The amount of times that thing almost came to be and then died is more times than it actually came to life. And so for me, it's just really exciting that it's now out there and it's very nerdy. It's super functional. And in a funny way, I kind of liken it to like the bear meets the home edit. I don't know if you've ever seen the home edit. Yeah, like the kind of organizing show. They have like a book also. Exactly. And it's very much like heavy container store. Everything looks very pretty. But I take it to the bear in the sense that I'm like, OK, what's in your drawer?

25:26We're going to empty everything out. We're going to label it. Treat your refrigerator like a freaking walk in. We're going to make it labeled. We're going to create zones in your kitchen. Prep, cook, serve, store. Like it's very chefy, but approachable. and you're not getting scolded. You're getting taught how to think like a chef and be efficient like a chef. And then by the way, we make it look beautiful at the end too. So it's like everything you love in a design show, you've got your good before and after, but then the entire kitchen actually functions so much better than what you had originally.

26:01And it's on a budget. Like we did this two weeks per kitchen. So for three and a half months, I organized or we overhauled eight different kitchens, two weeks each kitchen, which is psychotic, but we did it. It's so much work. And also kitchens are so, I think more than any room in the house, especially if you like to cook, kitchens are so particular to people and the kinds of things that they want to make or the appliances that they want to have out in front. And, you know, I know when people come over to my house and they want to help me cook or even help do the dishes, I say no because it's my kitchen.

26:33And I know where everything is. Like no one is going to be able to put away things in my kitchen better than me. And so I would imagine working on this show, like there were probably a lot of people that had specific requests or things they didn't necessarily want to have changed. And I'm curious if there were any before and afters that you were most proud of or maybe like difficult challenges you had to solve. Yeah. One of them was actually really challenging as a woman who's like 70 something. Her daughter signed her up for the show. Classic. Classic. I'm like, oh, my gosh. And so I kind of had to convince her to let me do this live.

27:06And I didn't realize how emotional this would be for everybody. But every kitchen, rain or shine, somebody cried, somebody was upset about something because there's all this like nostalgia attached to dishes, to places they've been, to maybe something they got as a present from someone who's passed away. You know, there was a big kind of side of heaviness that I didn't realize. And I had to coach them and guide them through to the other side and help them let go of a lot of stuff, physically stuff. And this woman who was 70 something, she had had a stroke and her house was very small. And so she had to navigate cooking with her husband, grabbing everything for her because she couldn't find anything.

27:50And when we were done with that kitchen, she looked at me and she was just like, I had no idea how much I actually needed this. And you changed my approach to cooking completely. And I created all these extra pockets in her house that were not in the kitchen. So I, like, turned her husband's office into a wine room and a pantry. And I turned their hallway that was a laundry room into a storage area. And I turned her dining room into a party zone where she could put all her entertaining gear. She had like, I'm not exaggerating, over 100 platters because she loved to entertain. And so to get to do this and show people how to take something very unique and apply it to their home, I think it's like really practical.

28:34And it's not so out of reach. It's not like we're doing$200 ,000 a house remodels that you see on television. You're like, well, great. How the hell am I going to do that at my house? or my apartment in New York. Yeah. Rental, right? This is like you can glean little details. And what was fun is like even our camera crew would go home and they'd be like, Ellen, I redid my spice cabinet last night because of you. And look at my pantry. I made it better. And my Tupperware drawer is fixed because of you. So it's like really, you know, just practical stuff. Yeah. I love the idea that like kind of the whole house can be an extension of the kitchen if you want it to be.

29:12Yeah. And I do think there's something very rewarding. Like once you start to organize and put things away, it feels good to do that. And then you just kind of keep going in that way. Yeah, it's really cathartic. And once you have a I'm like I call them like little parking spots. Once everything has a parking spot, you just kind of have to return it back to those spots. And if you divide up any kitchen, no matter how big or how small into these zones I mentioned, like prep, cook, clean. Everybody has that. Like there's not a kitchen that doesn't have cleaning stuff and they're spread all over the place.

29:42or maybe they entertain a lot, but they entertain a lot during the holiday. But then their kitchen is ruined for the rest of the year because they have to move this giant turkey roaster every time they grab a pot. That's the kind of stuff that messes people's home kitchens up. So I really streamline it. And yeah, you got to watch it. Like, it's really good. I am proud of it because how nerdy we got. I love that. I'm curious if you went home and looked at your own kitchen differently afterwards. Did you make any changes or was it all dialed in? I have been making changes to my kitchen every day forever.

30:16Yeah. I feel like the kitchen really took root during COVID because no one was going out. All I was doing was working my ass off at Hedley and Bennett because we did this crazy mask initiative. And I would go to the office and then I'd come home and I would be organizing my pantry at like 10 o 'clock at night. And my husband would be like, what are you doing? And I'm like, I'm literally just regaining my sanity here. I'm organizing my fridge. I'm organizing my drawers to find myself again. Yeah, I got really into labeling things in my fridge and pantry during the pandemic. I think because I just was cooking at home so much and there were so many leftovers floating around that I needed to know when I had made something.

30:54And also the days had all blended together at that point. So I just was like, I don't know which Tuesday I made this on. But I still love to do it just because I think looking in the fridge and seeing everything labeled is so satisfying. and now whenever my friends don't do that, I always just want to bring them like a masking tape and a Sharpie. Totally. I found this white chalk erase marker that I'm obsessed with and I label every single thing in the fridge, including what's in the veggie drawers because you know you forget that there's that red radicchio in the back left corner. So if you label everything on the front, you're like, okay, what do I have in here?

31:28Oh, I have celery, radicchio, two avocados. Great. And that's a hot little tip I share. I'm really excited to look this up after this. I have a whiteboard on the front of my fridge and I write all of the produce that I'm trying to use up on it, which I know you could just open the fridge and look inside. I like your system. It's like a second reminder. And then you can brainstorm things that you would want to make based on what you've written on the fridge as well. I love that. Sometimes I'll do that when I go to the farmer's market. I'll write down the things that I bought and stick it on the fridge.

31:56So similar system. Yeah. You mentioned a little bit about the pandemic before, and I would imagine that it probably fueled a lot of growth in terms of the home cooks that were interested in cooking in the first place and also like buying things to equip their kitchens. And obviously we're a couple of years after the start of the pandemic. Do you feel like that interest has sustained or are we kind of in a different era of home cooking now? It's a funny different era. I think people are not as obsessed with sourdough bread, for example. Yeah, I for one am not anymore. The starters have died. My starter did die.

32:28But I do feel like it sparked a lot of people who didn't cook at all that now still cook. That is the big difference. It like forced entertainment. And I think because of Instagram, because of social media in general, there's also it's an outlet for people to just show some creativity that they get to do quickly. Like, what other thing can you buy three different items and turn it into a soup? It's a beautiful, quick hit of endorphins to get to turn something into something else so fast and get to nourish yourself and bring people around the table because of this thing. And that's pretty beautiful.

33:08So, yeah, I do believe it's sustained. It's just, you know, people want to go out, too. So it's a blend. Yeah. Can I ask you about what it was like making a Crocs collab also? Yeah. Like, how did that happen? Like, what was the dream with that? I feel like that must be such a fun thing to get to do. Honestly, the collabs we have done are like pinch me moments every time. I'm so proud of our team for the things that that they've pulled off. And the Crocs one was pretty, pretty damn special. Seeing the gibbets that had a little headlamp and an apron with the red ampersand on it was like, oh, my God.

33:41Are gibbets, is that what it's called? The things that you put in the hole? It's the official name. Wow. For the things that go in the hole. That sounds funny. I mean, I don't know what I thought they were called, but gibbets is very cute. It is cute. Yeah. So we created all these little gibbets. There's one that's a deli cup. There's an apron. There's a knife. There's one that says, yes, chef. And it was like almost a two-year process. So it was pretty crazy. And you meet certain teams, and they're kind of like, okay, who does she know? What's the world? What's her demographic? But then they're also like, you're super cool.

34:16We want to collab. So they're kind of sussing you out, but also have already sussed you out beforehand. And now you're just like going on dates. It's like big croc trying to work it through. Yeah, exactly.

34:31But yeah, when they came out, it was I mean, yeah, we were pretty proud of that one. And it makes a lot of sense. And we made them very nerdy, too. Again, back to the nerdiness. Like, I can't emphasize that enough. We do things very beautifully, but truly at its roots, it's like function. Every croc had, you know, sole like that were water resistant and slip resistant. And it's just like, how are the what are the 800 ways we can make this thing work better? And then we'll do it. And I guess to connect the dots for someone who's listening, the connection is that a lot of chefs and food people wear crocs in the kitchen.

35:04So that's why it made so much sense as a collab. Yeah, yeah, exactly. But like, for example, we did a collab with vans. You know, some people wear vans in the kitchen, but it's like a little dangerous because they're slippery. So when we launched that one, that was pretty special because we also did a slip resistant sole. And the sole of our Vans shoes are a rainbow stripe, not associated with pride, but more associated with joy and happiness. And just like, you know, you can be very serious on the top of your uniform and then you flip your shoe and it's colorful and it's just kind of like a pep in your step at the bottom of the sole.

35:38I love that. And I feel like we've been talking a lot about other people's kitchens. So I want to ask you about what's happening in your kitchen these days. Ask me a way. Obviously, you're here in New York right now, but when you're back home, are you doing a lot of cooking at home? And what does that kind of look like for you? Yes, I'm cooking a lot, especially since I had a baby three and a half months ago. Congrats. Thank you. And I had been on maternity leave, but I love cooking. And I was trying to find my way in the world again. And so I have this beautiful tree in my backyard and a big wooden table.

36:09And I literally just took an induction burner. I just put it out there, plugged it outside and have been making tons and tons of food in the backyard. Just like, you know, I've been trying to be my Anna Garten. I didn't realize that it was just right outside your kitchen in the backyard. That's so fun. It's just like, you know, back in the day when I started Headley and Bennett, I did that with$300 out of my house. It was very scrappy. I'm still a scrappy person in my soul with anything new I want to do. So it's just like you look around and what do you have and focus on that. Don't focus on what you don't have.

36:44And I was like, OK, there's a table. I have an induction burner inside. I'm going to throw it outside. And we're going to start making some videos while I cook and regain myself full stop. And I just started. I didn't make a big to do out of it. And it became this thing that gives me a lot of joy. And sometimes I throw my son in there with me. I now have friends and creators come to my house. I have chefs come and visit. And we're all just like huddled around the table in my backyard cooking outside. My way to pretend I'm still cooking professionally in my soul. Yeah. Why did you want to go outside in the first place?

37:15Well, it's beautiful. It's bright. It's L.A. It's L.A. The sun is shining. And what's going on in my kitchen inside, if I'm being perfectly honest, is like I have two little babies. There's a lot of action. Yeah. And you're just trying to survive. So by being outside, it's like it's my own little sanctuary, I guess. Yeah. I like this idea that the kitchen in your house is where you're feeding your family. And then the kitchen in the backyard is where you're feeding yourself or the things that you want to be doing. Oh, my God. Well said. Yeah, that is exactly what I'm like. You're right. Thank you.

37:48Just a quick therapy session in here. Yeah. And then I also have a Gosney dome set up. I have a big green egg. I have a Traeger and they're all lined up next to my table. So it kind of feels like an ace true hardware slash Home Depot out there. Yeah. I don't know the first thing you just said. What's a Gosney dome? Oh, a Gosney is a pizza dome oven. Gotcha. And it's literally shaped like a dome. And so I have a pizza oven and then all this different, you know, these smokers. So I can cook it there, too. I love that. Clearly, I have no outdoor space here in New York. So I don't even want to know what I'm missing out on.

38:24You're like, don't tell me about your Traeger, lady. Yeah, the green egg alone is sad. Well, I guess we've been talking about so many of the different things you've been working on. And I'm curious if there's anything coming out in the next couple of months or in the future of Hedley and Bennett or your own life that you're excited about and want to share. OK, so in Hedley and Bennett land, things we have cooking are a pretty cool NFL collab, which I'm really, really pumped about. It's got a lot of teams, obviously, and it's really fun. And tailgating is such a thing that it just felt like a really natural extension of what we're already doing.

39:01So that one's coming out. And we have a Gosney Dome, which I mentioned earlier. It's called an Arc XL. It's a very fancy name. But it's basically like a pro-grade pizza oven that's super legit, gets to 900 degrees. It's crazy hot. And the pizzas look like what you'd buy at Roberto's. Like they're freaking gorgeous. And it's in your backyard. So we did a very colorful one. And then a nod to Hedley & Bennett. And then we have a whole collection of aprons coming out. That's actually why I'm in New York right now. I'm doing a dinner with Eric Wareheim to celebrate the launch of the Gosney Dome. Well, I'm so glad you educated me on what the Gosney Dome is because now I can be really excited because I can picture it in my head.

39:44And that must be a really fun dinner to get to do also. Can you talk about the menu at all? Yeah, it's very Mexico City inspired. I got married in Mexico City and so everything was very much like, how do we bring the roots of the way I like to eat Mexican food to here? So think like Contramar vibes. There's going to be fish that's sarandiados, open up, butterflied. Lots of churros that will be handmade there. Handmade tortillas with masienda. Masa, which is my favorite. We're going to have esquites, which I don't know. Have you ever had esquites before? Yeah, I mean, of course. It's like elote, but off the cob, kind of.

40:26That's right. And it's got like butter and mayo and lime juice and chili. And, you know, you put a little epazote in there to give it some flavor. And it's just like that that broth with the mayo floating around is just next level. So that sounds so good. Yeah, it's very like honestly, everything is very homey. It's almost like if a Mexican grandma came up with it, that's what it is. And I think that's right because everybody here eats really fancy food. I wanted to show them like nostalgia Mexico, not fancy. Yeah. Have you been to Taco Ramirez yet while being here in New York? No. Do I need to go?

41:01Ellen, you have to go. It is the best taco in New York. I think the couple that runs it are incredible. They're from Mexico City. It's in Greenpoint. They just opened a second location in the East Village that's called Carnitas Ramirez. And they just do like different cuts of pork only at that one. And then the one in Greenpoint, they do like Suadero, Campechano, Longaniza and Nopales. and it's really like, I want you to go so I can hear what you think about it, but I would go there every day if I lived closer. It's quite special. Wow, that sounds so good. Okay, I will put added to my list. Okay, so that's my recommendation to close.

41:35I want to play a little like taste check game with you. So I'll ask you some questions and you can just give me the first answer that comes into your head. Okay, great. Okay, your favorite cookbook. Prune. Your favorite season for cooking. Oof, in California, all the seasons. It's beautiful summer. So all of the seasons are summer. Summer. Yeah. Your favorite item at Headley & Bennett right now? Our utility knife. The most difficult product you've ever designed? Our knives. Your favorite music to listen to while cooking? Arcade fire. Your go-to item to order in the pastry case at a bakery? Ooh.

42:15Chocolate croissant. Something that you will never make from scratch at home. Maybe you'll make everything. I'm like, oh, my God, what would I not make? Honestly, I'm not much of a pastry gal, so probably a very exotic cake. Okay. I'm not trying to combat with, you know, Hannah. Yeah, you'll just give it a quarter sheet. I'm like, girl, just get me a cake, please. Okay. Your favorite L.A. restaurant? It's super OG, but gosh, I love it so much. Park's Barbecue? Oh, so good. So good. Your favorite L.A. bakery? Valerie Confections. Your favorite farmer's market? The South Pasadena farmer's market.

42:53Oh, you know, I actually haven't been to that one. It's really delightful. It's really, really lovely. You'll see so many chefs there because it's kind of like the low-key undercover one that people want to go to and end. It's Thursday at 4. Okay. So it's the end of the day and you bring your family and you eat there and you have dinner and you get your produce. It's like it's really special. That's such an interesting time of day for a farmer's market. I know. I know that's kind of what makes it amazing. Okay. Hot tip. Yeah. A restaurant that's not in your neighborhood that you wish could be your neighborhood restaurant.

43:26Ooh. Rustic Canyon. Okay. And finally, a fictional food scene from like a book or a movie or something that you wish you could eat in real life. Oh, my gosh. What a great question. By the way, this is the best podcast. You're such a good interviewer. Good Lord. Clayton, keep that in the final episode. Yeah. With Clayton over there, you guys are killing it. We got it. Okay, ask me again. Put it on the spot. A fictional food scene, like from a book or a movie or something that you wish you could eat in real life. Okay, lessons in chemistry. The lasagna. There's a lasagna that she makes like 49 times because she's a chemist.

44:06And the crunchy, crusty edges when she gets it right look so spectacular. I wish I could have that. also the giant cakes in the mary antonet movie oh you know i have a friend who's a food stylist and the reason why she became a food stylist was that movie oh just beyond well i love all of these answers and it was so much fun chatting with you ellen thank you for coming on the show oh you're amazing thank you for having me hey matt how's it going it's going great how are you i'm good i'm I want to talk three things with you. Let's do it. What's your first one? My first one is that on my walk over to the studio this morning, I stopped for a sweet treat, which was a plantain sticky bun.

44:52Ooh. But specifically a plantain sticky bun that Paola Velez, who has a great cookbook coming out this fall called Bodega Bakes. I had her on the show. I'm not sure when that will come out, but this is one of her like very famous recipes. And she partners with Nordstrom. I think this is the second time she's done this. And they have it at all of the Nordstrom cafes across the country for the next like two months. and there happens to be a Nordstrom Cafe like a block away from where we record. So I stopped by to get one and it really is such a like beautiful idea for a pastry because it's a plantain pecan sticky bun.

45:21It has the pecan on top and then the plantain is kind of like rolled into the bun itself. So you get these like squishy banana-y like plantain bites as you're eating and I thought it was really cool. I love it. And Paula, Washington DC based creator, recipe developer, online personality. I love Paula. I got to chit chat with her after your interview And really, it's one of our, I think, one of our best interviews of the fall. I can't wait for us to air. We're going to be airing it in a couple weeks, I think. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think Paola is a great recipe developer. And it's cool to be able to, like, partner with such a big company and have it available across the country.

45:57I feel like sometimes I talk about these, like, pastries that you can only get in New York, whatever city I happen to be in. So this is, like, a national call out. What's your first thing? My first thing is I have a new halva that I'm, like, kind of into right now. Are you a fan of halva? Do you ever? Yeah, I like sesame as a flavor. I don't say it's something I seek out, but I encounter it and I enjoy it. You enjoy it, but in maybe moderation. Yeah. On the other hand, I love halva. It kind of hits that peanut butter cup part of my body that craves it come now until the end of the year. But Hebel and Company, halva, it's made in Los Angeles.

46:34And it's a cool company. They do collaborations with Maliere. They did a peanut butter and chocolate crisp. They did a recent collaboration with Seattle's Bell's Cookies, which I thought was really cool. They use Tsum Tahini as well. And I'm just like really into this brand. And I suggest if you're in that like halava mood, why don't you like smash that buy button and check it out. I love it so much. It was a really nice product. And halava is a delicious treat. That sounds awesome. I'll check it out. Yeah. What's your next one? My next one is just an awesome New York City Mexican food update, which is that Marisco del Submarino, which is like a very famous like ceviche, agua chile, like tostada kind of place in Queens opened a location in Greenpoint.

47:16And I went to it like last week maybe. And I was so happy. I think the people I was eating with were like, you need to stop smiling so much. It's freaking us out. But I really love like Marisco style. Seafood, I think it's a style of taco that's a little bit harder to find here in New York. and they just are doing it so good. So Marisco, is that your LA native speaking? I feel Marisco, the style is very common in LA. It's like really great there. Or do you just feel like it's something that you've always loved? Yeah, I mean, like Marisco literally means shellfish, seafood. And I do think being from the West Coast or going down to Baja, California, like that part of Mexico, like there's a lot of seafood around.

47:55But, you know, New York is technically an island. Like the seafood isn't coming from right here. But I don't see why we couldn't have that kind of as well. Well, I do think like it's more common to have like meat focused Mexican food here on the East Coast. But they have like a great menu of like ceviche, aguachile. They do like tacos doradas that have like the fried shrimp and cheese. I don't think you could really go wrong there. And I would definitely recommend asking for recommendations from the staff because what they have is they have like an aguachile or something. And you can pick from like four or five different variations.

48:27My mouth was like smacking for aguachile as soon as you mentioned that name. and I need to check it out. Where in Greenpoint? It's on Franklin Ave. It's like up on the north end of Franklin. They have a big backyard also and the vibe there is just really fun. I love that. My old office for taste used to be like literally right there. What a great food neighborhood to be in. I know. It's no 56 in Broadway, I must say. No, we got a Sweetgreen and a Nordstrom Cafe. Nordstrom Cafe definitely hits. I've been doing Just Salad recently. Just Salad. Emily Sundberg's newsletter inspired me. She wrote a piece about how they have a new marketing campaign.

49:05I was like, I like these raps. They're quite good. Okay. I'm like in a rap run. But that's not your second thing, is it? It's not my second thing. My second thing is, I don't know if I've ever mentioned Jake's Gouda on the pod. Do you know that brand at all? Do you know that name? No, but I like Gouda, so I'm curious. Well, Jake's Gouda is a terrific company. It's based in Deansboro, New York. I first encountered it at Stissinghouse, a great restaurant Claire DeBoer runs. And she features it on the menu. And I think I've seen it in some farmers markets and at Murray's. And honestly, I've been a big fan of their smoked gouda, which has been a big hit for many people.

49:45They also have a standard gouda. But that's not my update. My update is that they now have a cheddar. And it's called Moo Echo. It's extremely crumbly and crystallized. And it's run by an Amish family that moved from Pennsylvania about 20 years ago and settled in Deansboro. And, you know, it's a dairy and a creamery that makes cheese. And I think I posted it on Instagram and, man, I had some people come out for support. They were all about Jake's Gouda. So I love this product. And perhaps it's found around the country in specialty cheese shops. I mean, I love Gouda and I love products made by the Amish.

50:25So I think I'm going to have to check it out. I would love to invite Jake on the podcast. And I kept thinking, like, maybe Jake is, like, some, you know, former, like, you know, banker who ended up making cheese because he's, like, a fan of whatever. I don't know why I had this narrative about Jake not being Amish. But I don't think Jake, the Amish gentleman, would do the podcast. But maybe. Only one way to find out. Only one way to find out. I got to hit up that. It has, like, a Yahoo account. And I'm going to hit up the email. Yeah. What's your last one? My last one is a little bit of a more somber one.

50:51But I just wanted to say a couple words about Justin Chernow, who was the wine director of Four Horsemen. who unexpectedly passed away in the city recently. I think like everybody who works in hospitality, especially who works in wine in some kind of way, has like known Justin and been touched by him. And certainly everybody at the Four Horsemen, I think has been really affected by it. And I think we can link in the show notes to this great like remembrance that Grub Street did about him and his legacy in New York. But I just wanted to mention his name on the podcast, as I think a lot of people in the city are doing right now.

51:23Well, thanks for mentioning that, Eliza. It's really, really a good point. how influential Justin was. And, you know, I was just speaking about Justin with John Fine, who was on our show about three weeks ago. And, you know, Justin and John were quite close. And I'll also link to our conversation with John Fine. And, yeah, I never got to really get to know Justin Chernow. But, of course, that piece and many other remembrances for this guy, I mean, it really seemed like he was a family man. He had a lot of friends in the industry, but also just from the industry point of view. I mean, I remember when I was editing at Punch, his name would come up almost like every editorial meeting.

52:00Punch is a great publication covering wine and natural wines. And Justin was a real friend of Punch. And I just remember hearing the name a lot. And I got to meet him a couple of times in passing. But, yeah, it's really, really sad to see his passing so soon. And I appreciate you mentioning that. And we'll link to those pieces in the show notes. Yeah, if it's all right, I'll just read a little quote from it that I think kind of resonates. And it's talking about that in addition to being one of the pioneers of the natural wine movement here in New York, he has all of these kind of music world credentials.

52:33In 2002, Cherno started working at a neighborhood wine store called Uva. There was Chamber Street Wines, Diner, Ten Bells, and Uva. That was the entire natural wine scene, more or less, in New York City and in America, says Zev Rovin, who first worked for Cherno at UVA and later hired him to work at his own company, Zev Rovin Selections. He gave that confidence to me and to a lot of other importers that they could go and be a little experimental and be a little bit weird and that they had an audience with Justin, Ravine says. That grew the industry more than people knew back then. Those are great words.

53:04And, you know, we're thinking about his friends and family. And, of course, the Four Horsemen cookbook is out this fall. And I think we're going to have some folks from the restaurant come in and I'm sure we'll have a conversation about Justin as well. Yeah. And in the cookbook, there's suggestions from Justin actually about how to be pairing wine with your meal, which I think is like a nice way that his influence can live on in one more way. Thanks for the remembrance. Yeah. Is there one more thing you wanted to share? Yeah, absolutely. My last thing is this restaurant, Yao. Did we talk about this?

53:35I feel like I'm looking at you and like, did we talk about this? I was like really excited about it, but I don't think we've talked about it. so this restaurant yeah it was really interesting it opened about a year ago and i got to go last week it's in the financial district literally in a courtyard by marriott and so you enter through like the lobby but you enter into the space it's like almost three stories high it's like an extremely dramatic opening and it's a restaurant from the folks behind august gatherings in chinatown and the chef is kenny lung and kenny is cooking really ambitious banquet style cuisine There's tasting menus available.

54:08They start around 150 bucks a head, but you can also order a la carte, which I did. And really the menu is really cool in that the service is exceptional, but really there's like a lot of abalone. In fact, there's an abalone menu, which I think is really neat. There's also a full sea perch menu, one with dried tangerine peel. He's cooking this Cantonese cuisine that feels elevated in a way that is a little atypical in New York and I feel I connected with the cooking but I also connected with just the way they served it it felt like a really special place I can't say I like tried the whole menu it was only one one visit but I felt like if you're interested in having like a gathering with friends I'm just really interested in this restaurant and seeing it evolve I think wasn't that crowded but it was late summer so I'm not gonna judge it but I'd hate to see it skipped over when thinking about visiting ambitious Cantonese restaurants in New York.

55:08Yeah, I'll have to go check it out. Great. Well, thanks for sharing your three things. You too.

55:16This is Taste is hosted by Matt Rodbard and me, Eliza Abarbanel. The show is produced by Shalia Harris and Pat Stango and edited by Clayton Gumbert. Theme music by Steve Rydell. Visit Taste online at tastecooking.com and make sure to subscribe to our newsletter for updates on all cool things happening.