470: Salty, Cheesy, Herby, Crispy Baking with Jessie Sheehan

0:28This episode is brought to you by Resi and American Express. But for me, and just for anyone out there that kind of wants to speed up the process, and that's okay with maybe not the best cheddar in the store, but like a really yummy one that just happens to come shredded, I want to be like the person who holds your hand as you do things that you worry, like your friends might judge you for. This is Taste. I'm your host, Eliza Barbanel.

0:59Jessie Sheehan is all about baking. She's the host of the baking podcast She's My Cherry Pie on Radio Cherry Bomb and the author of four baking cookbooks including her newest, Salty, Cheesy, Herby, Crispy, Snackable Bakes. This book ventures into all savory territory from biscuits and scones to what she calls toasty handhelds kind of like a fancy Hot Pocket. And this episode will have you craving them all. Thank you.

1:52two years ago-ish, I haven't been a guest. So it feels really exciting and kind of weird. Well, I'm honored to take you on this journey. And if you feel the need to ask me some questions halfway through, I won't be upset about it either. That might actually happen. So thank you for clarifying. To start off today, I'm wondering if you can tell me about the last delicious baked good that you've eaten, because I feel like it must be a good one. Yes. So I have a house upstate that's kind of near a little town called Wasayek, New York, which is also near Armenia, New York. And a friend of mine, Ariel Votiv, has an amazing little bakery called Vitsky Bakery.

2:29And it's only open on the weekends. Maybe she's open Fridays now. I'm not sure. And she makes a delicious cardamom bun. And kind of like, I don't know, anyone and everyone with a heartbeat, like I'm into cardamom buns and I love hers. That sounds great. And I feel like I'm always so interested when I talk to bakers and recipe developers about how much of like the baked goods you're consuming outside of the home versus making yourself. Obviously, you're about to be in book promo mode. So that's kind of a strange time for baking. Do you find yourself baking at home at all these days? So that's such a good question.

3:02And this is like, I don't, I'm hoping I don't get too much hate mail from this, but like, I don't, I don't actually find baking to be like this meditative, wonderful, like now I can chill situation, I think because I do it professionally. So if I'm in like professional baking mode, like I am right now, just like, you know, making things for something that sometimes I do some brand work with Cherry Bomb, making things for that, or I'm making a lot of recipes from my new book to kind of do collabs with people and sort of get my pre-orders up. And all of that does not feel like, oh my God, this is so fun.

3:38I just took out like flour and butter. Oh my God, what's it going to be, what's it going to turn into? Instead, I feel like it's work. So I would say that in general, when I home bake, it's because I have like free time. And because, and when I'm using like home bake, like, yes, I'm at home, but I'm talking about baking that isn't, you're not doing for your job. That I, I will like, you know, if we're having people over for dinner, like this summer, my husband grew like a lot of peaches and sour cherries. And we had a lot of raspberries. So I was making tons of different like crisps and crumbles and doing that kind of stuff.

4:15But more because like I was in entertaining mode and like someone said, can you please bring dessert when they invited me over? And then, of course, I cried because I don't make me. No, only kidding. But of course they ask you. I feel like if you're showing up to a dinner, you have to be asked to bring dessert. Does that happen to you? Well, people do ask me to bring dessert because I do cakesy. And so I feel like professionally I'm aligned with baked goods. But I don't actually bake a lot myself. Like Tanya, who's my co-editor in the magazine, is the pastry chef among us. And I feel like I'm always connected to bakers.

4:44But if people ask me to bring dessert, like I'm probably bringing fruit and ice cream. Like I'm not a big baker, actually. So it's disappointing, I think. But it's funny to hear about that. And I feel like also I'm interested in your perspective on baking because you're the host of She's My Cherry Pie, which is the name of your podcast on Cherry Bomb. And you get to talk to so many different kinds of bakers on that show. I'm curious if having these conversations with other bakers changes the way that you think about baking for yourself or maybe the kind of industry around dessert and baking that we're in right now.

5:14So it definitely I would say I don't know if it's changed, but it's like broadened my perspective about the industry just because I am like a home baker, you know, who develops recipes for media outlets and like writes cookbooks and hosts this baking podcast. But I'm not professionally trained. I worked in a bakery many, many years ago, and that was sort of my training, as it were. But I'm not professionally trained, and I've never worked in any kind of fine dining establishment or anything like that. So it's been so interesting not only to interview so many bakers who are professionally trained, but so many bakers who are part of, like, the fine dining establishment and worked in professional pastry kitchens, whether they're still doing it or they've left.

5:58and learning sort of about their experience there, learning why they stay versus why they go, because some of them are still doing that. Many of them have now left and opened up their own bakeries. So I feel like what's been cool about it is more learning about all the people in my industry that maybe I don't interface with on the regular. You know, I feel like the people I know are like people who are, you know, I know from social media or I know because I live in New York City and I go to different events and meet people. And that can sometimes be different than people who are probably not at those events because like they're at work.

6:32Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And I also feel like for myself with having a podcast, it's such a great excuse to just get really nosy and ask people questions that maybe you wouldn't if you were interfacing with them like at their restaurant or at an event or something like that. Do you find that you pick up on any tips and tricks and skills based on the conversations you're having? Oh, my gosh. Yes. Yes. Like two answers to that question because the first is yes, yes, yes. It's so fun to be nosy. Less so about personal stuff because I don't know about you, but I'm like a crazy researcher before I have a guest on.

7:04Like I – this is so different than some people, I guess, but I like to know everything about the person so that nothing they say can surprise me. So I'm usually surprising my guests like, remember when you got that easy bake oven when you were four and your mom said, no, sweetie, you can't put your hand in there? Like I will find that shit on the Internet and then I will ask my guests about it. So and they'll be like, oh, my God, how'd you find that? So in some ways, I know everything about them personally. But because I do a deep dive into the into the guests, like signature bake, we say, it's so fun to be able to ask questions about why someone wrote a recipe the way they wrote it or why they like add an ingredient that they did or like.

7:47But there's buttermilk in here, Rose Levy-Berenbaum, who was a guest. Why are you not adding baking soda to this recipe? And it's so amazing to hear the answers to those questions. And in terms of incredible tips. So I think it's a Claire Saffitt's tip that she told me about on the pod, but so did Claudia Fleming, who uses the tip. When you want to have a very flaky pie dough, let's say, often what you'll do is you're – is it okay to go a little deep into a recipe? I would love for you to go deep on a recipe. Awesome. Because I forget it's not my podcast. No, no. I'm setting you up to like excavate into this recipe right now.

8:22Oh, I love you. And I love that verb. I'm going to excavate. So when you're making pie dough, for instance, a trick is to do a letter fold with a lot of different pastry, actually, not just pie dough. To get flakiness, to get layers, you'll take your piece of dough, let's say. It's in, let's say, a rectangular shape. You're folding like a third of it over and then the bottom third over and the top third over on top of that like – not that anyone writes letters anymore – but like you were folding up a business letter. So that's the way that people get a flaky pie. Then they roll that out. They rotate it and they do that letter fold again.

8:56Well, what I think Claire taught Claudia and they both taught me is rather than do that, take your rectangle, cut it into three pieces, let's say, pile them on top of each other, roll it out, cut it, and stack. So it's so – I mean now that I'm saying it out loud, maybe it doesn't sound so much easier. But in my head and when I've done it, it's so much easier than worrying about a fussy letter fold. You're just cutting dough into pieces, piling it up, and rolling it out. So I love that tip. Can I give you a couple more? Yeah. And I just want to say another thing I like about that tip is just that you're actually physically touching the dough less.

9:31So it's not warming up as much. And I think for me, I really don't mess around with pastry because I've had negative experiences. But often the failure comes from your body heat is warming up the dough and the butter and it starts to melt and it's harder to work with. So what you're talking about makes sense also because you're kind of handling it less and using like a knife or an object a little bit more. Honey, you are a genius. I didn't even think of that. But yes, of course, that's a really good point. Yeah, it's handling it less. It's just a simpler task. Also, as a recipe writer, it's not – I mean, it's easy, but even as I was explaining it out loud, it's not that easy to explain what a letter fold is.

10:06So to just say, cut your rectangle into three even pieces, pile them on top of each other, roll it out. Think about like the page space that you're saving with that. 100%. And then I also just wanted to mention Zoe Francois was just on my podcast. Zoe was telling me about a way to make sure that you don't burn the bottom of cookies, which is that you layer two cookie sheets and then obviously place the cookies on the top layer. And that will give them a little more insulation so the bottoms don't burn. And then finally, I just wanted to mention that Rosalie V. Berenbaum has a great tip for like foolproof ganache, which is make it in your frigging food processor.

10:40And it's like it's you grind up the chocolate in the food processor, then you pour in the warm, heavy cream. It's like magic. So easy. So amazing. So, yes, yes, yes. I have learned so many things from my guests. I love that. And I think it's interesting because audio format is not necessarily how people learn to cook, but then the same way it absolutely is. Like your grandma or your mom, whoever's in the kitchen, is explaining things to you. And normally you have that visual indicator and you don't with a podcast. So I think like trying to do a recipe just from listening to it might be tricky.

11:11But hearing someone talk about their perspective on baking and the tips that they've heard that they want to pass down is really intimate and kind of a cool way to be hearing about it in a podcast form. I totally agree with you. I also, at least in the baking world, I'm not sure this is happening in cooking too, but maybe it is. I feel like tips and hacks are weirdly having a moment and like everyone's obsessed with them and like I'm being asked to create content that's just about making – like showing people tips. Yeah, it's funny. I feel like 2010 food media tip hack was a big thing. And it's weird because you obviously can't make a recipe on like tips and hacks alone.

11:46But I do think that sometimes someone is just showing their knowledge to you. And when you learn that, then it kind of helps you think about, well, what else could I be optimizing or doing differently? Totally. So I want to talk to you about your new book, Salty, Cheesy, Herby, Crispy, Snackable Bakes. What a title. This is your fourth baking book, but it's your first all savory book. What inspired that decision? So honestly, and like I was trying to maybe like, should I lie? Honestly, my editor. Okay. Shout out to your editor. I wanted to write another sweet book because I will always, sweet baking will always hold like a very special place in my heart, even though I love savory bakes too.

12:25And also what I realized, which is so funny, I actually gravitate towards the savory bake in the pastry case when I'm like in a bakery. And yet what I actually want to make at home is the sweet stuff. I'm not like, oh, my God, so fun. I think I'll make a savory scone. I would never say that. That would never come out of my mouth. So it was my editor who suggested it. And, like, I cried because I was like, I can't believe it. I can't do that. And then I got on board. And I think that she was not wrong since I weirdly think that savory baking is having a moment. I mean, Erin McDowell wrote her amazing savory baking book.

13:03I think it pubbed like a year ago. I don't think I'm off. Maybe I might. Am I off by two years? But I think it was a year ago. And like she and I were both recently interviewed for like Pastry Arts Magazine, all about savory baking. And I don't know if you saw it, but the Wall Street Journal did like a piece. I think they were maybe interviewing bakery owners, I think nationally, maybe focused on the West Coast. I can't quite remember. But all these bakery owners were saying, you know what? Like people really want like cheese and herbs in their baked goods right now. Like we are getting so many requests for that.

13:35So good news for me and my publisher and my editor because I'm hoping that that will help, you know, sort of make this book kind of not only – gosh, as you well know, October is so packed with baking books. It's like really – I won't lie – frightening because every single book I've written has come out in May and this is my first fall book and I'm literally crying. because it's so busy. But I'm hoping it will be something that makes the book stand out from the other baking books because, and there's some incredible baking books and also just some incredibly, incredible savory books coming out, cooking books coming out.

14:11But I'm hoping this will sort of make it stand off to the side a little bit because it's a little bit different. I also think the fact that it's easy baking, so it's savory, but it's also like, just a minute, you can do this in like 20 minutes or less with a bowl and a whisk and like some cheese from the grocery store. Yeah, I think those are both really interesting things that appeal to people right now. And I agree with you. I do think that savory baking is having a moment. I selfishly always like to eat the savory things in the case. So maybe I'm just trying to say that so that more of that is out there.

14:42But I do think when you go to bakeries, it does seem like there are more options. And I'm so interested in like why that might be. I don't know if you've stopped to try to psychoanalyze the trend at all. I think maybe like the heritage grain movement or like seasonal produce in general is kind of impacting things. That's so interesting. I'm embarrassed to say that I have not given it a lot of thought. Only the only thoughts I've had are yay. Yeah. And here are many recipes for you. Yes. But I think the seasonal grain thing is really interesting. I also think it's, you know, just people constantly pushing the envelope and like, why should the croissant be filled?

15:21I mean, ham and cheese croissant, obviously we know. But why should it be filled with chocolate? How about let's put like za 'atar and labneh inside? Well, maybe you can bake with labneh. But, you know, like let's like zhuzh things up in ways that people aren't necessarily used to seeing. And let's always just be pushing the envelope on what we can make. Yeah, I think that really is what it comes down to is there's just such a strong baking industry and movement here in the U.S. that already has been kind of pushing things forward. And savory is this whole less charted territory maybe. I also think that people, which makes me so sad, I want to cry, but people are like so scared of sugar right now, I feel like.

16:00Scared is maybe not the right word, but like people are definitely like, oh my God, that's so sweet. And I'm just like, yeah, like, of course. Well, that's what we want. One of my kids is like that. He's like, oh gosh, too sweet. I'm like, who is your actual mother? This could not be my child. So I do think it may have something to do with that too, that people are sort of, and I get it. Like people are like not necessarily wanting to eat something so sugary sweet and yummy. You're still eating something really buttery. But like this time it has like savory elements and not sweet elements to it.

16:32Definitely. So I want to talk about savory elements. You kind of have different categories of savory baked good in your book. Would you say there are core categories or how would you kind of break down the spectrum of savory baked goods that are available? So I think what I try to do, at least in the book, is sort of like create and organize the chapters like almost like Morning Tonight. I mean, not exactly, but I sort of start with sort of savory bakes you've probably seen before, like muffins, biscuits and scones is like the first chapter. And then I have a chapter called Sliceables, which is like, you know, tea loaves, quick breads, however people like to describe them.

17:09And I call them snacking breads, but they're like snacking cakes. So like small one-layer savory cakes that are typically baked in like an 8x8x2 inch pan. I love a savory cake. So it was very important to me to include savory breads or savory, savory, savory cakes in the book. And I feel like all of that is sort of breakfasty, lunchy a little bit. And then we move into a chapter of something called like Toasty Handheld. Yeah, I love that name. To me, I think of Hot Pocket. Totally. and there is a Hot Pocket and there are a Hot Pocket like inspired treat. But basically a toasty handheld is sort of exactly what it sounds like, like something that you're eating out of hand at a picnic, at a potluck, like at the breakfast nook, leaning up against the kitchen counter, like just something that basically can go in your hand.

18:00And that chapter calls for a lot of puff pastry because, again, it's like an easy baking book. So I'm not teaching anyone to make puff pastry in this book, but it, and I'm not the first to say this, but this, but store-bought puff pastry is so delicious and there are amazing brands out there that you can easily find in your regular old supermarket. And it just like elevates everything because it's flaky and delicious. So that is a product I used a lot in that chapter, but I also use like one of my claims to fame is that I have this melted butter pie dough. So it doesn't require that you have to like cut cold butter into flour, which can be intimidating and difficult.

18:39You don't need to rest the dough, which can also, can we just say, be really annoying. You don't have to then rest it again after you've rolled it out, et cetera, et cetera. It's melted butter pie dough. It's literally like melted butter, milk, a teeny bit of baking powder, some salt and some flour. You're whipping it up really fast and then you're using it right away. And I use that for a lot of my, like, for a lot of those toasty handhelds. I want to come back to the puff pastry thing really quick because you said there are a bunch of brands that are really good, but I feel like there's kind of one or two brands that most people call for.

19:09So what's the one that you prefer? It's so funny. We talk about brands so much on my pod because people love to hear. And also, does it sound dumb to say, do you say pod? As it's coming out of my mouth, I feel like I'm trying to be hip or something. You know, I don't. I should think about it. I feel like I don't often refer to the podcast while I'm doing the podcast. Maybe I'll try saying the pod and see if it sounds fun. Okay, see if it sounds weird. I say like friend of the pod. That's like a phrase in the lexicon. Okay, I like that. I've never said friend of the pod, but I like that. So on your pod.

19:36Yeah, on my pod. We always ask about brands, but for some reason I had this moment where I was like, can I say brands? But dumb. But anyway, I used Pepperidge Farm exclusively when I developed recipes for the book because I find it's the easiest and the least expensive. Not that it's cheap. Groceries are not cheap right now. But it's less than, and I'm probably going to fuck up the name, DeFore. DeFore. When I worked at Bon Appetit, that was the brand that like for Thanksgiving packages people would talk about or things like that. Yeah. I think that one is fantastic. I hope I'm not like I hope I'm not wrong.

20:12But in my head, I thought, oh, that's probably going to be more expensive. I think it is. Yeah. I'm going to use Pepperidge Farm for this book. I know everyone can find it if they upgrade on their own. Amazing. But they don't have to. Yeah. There's just a little extra puff maybe. So I like some of the kind of savory applications that you can do in this book with ingredients. I feel like it must be kind of fun to get to tap into the kind of savory side of the pantry. Like you do these muffin-sized egg puffs that have the prosciutto wrapping instead of a cupcake wrapper, and they get all crispy.

20:42I don't actually even really like eggs, but I saw that recipe, and I thought, this is really cool and smart and something that there probably isn't a sweet version of prosciutto that you could wrap around a muffin. Are there any other ingredients that are savory ingredients that you found unlocked something kind of special in terms of a recipe? Yeah, I mean, it kind of unlocks something special in a lot of recipes because I realized I used it over and over. And I love how retro this is, but pimento stuffed green olives out of a jar. I put those with cream cheese in like a pinwheel cookie. I put them in something I call the cocktail loaf and like just filled it with those and like yummy Swiss cheese.

21:19I think it was Swiss. I put them in – oh, my God. I wrapped cheddar cheese dough around them and turned them into these like little – I just have to say like really awesome cheese-wrapped olive balls like to serve at a party. Like so good. I love that. They just like kept coming back to me. And the only other thing I was going to flag is pickles because I think it's only actually in one recipe, which now that I'm saying that, like if I'm ever writing another savory book, I think pickles need to be in more than one recipe because I love pickles. But Ritz crackers, a slice of like a sour pickle and like some like Monterey Jack cheese and you melt that in the oven.

22:04Oh, my God. So unbelievably delicious. Like, it's funny, when my tester was testing that, she's like, well, is this a recipe? I was like, yes, it is. Yes, it is. And of course, I had that moment where I'm like, I am a fucking genius. I came up with Ritz crackers, pickles and cheese. I am amazing. I think I'll Google it. And of course, it's all over TikTok. But for the record, I did not know it was on TikTok. Well, I like how you started out saying that you didn't even want to do a savory book. Now it seems like you want to do a pickles baking book to me. Totally. Your editor is taking notes right now.

22:38Exactly. That's so funny. So I feel like in the sweet baking pantheon, there's kind of like all-star recipes, at least in like all-americana baking. There's like the chocolate chip cookie or cheesecake. And maybe biscuits are like that girl in the savory baking world. But I'm curious if after developing all these savory baking recipes, there's another category of savory bake that you think more home bakers should be like putting in their repertoire or making at home. Oh, that's a good question. because my home bakers are more like the I think the people that did kind of what I do are more into making things easy easy peasy easy peasy so what I would say is just like all the things that are already really easy to make like biscuits like scones like quick breads like these easy like you know pockets that you might want to fill with chocolate or berries you can now fill with like cheat like just take advantage of all of that kind of like infrastructure baking infrastructure, but put cheese and herbs and crispy things in it and you will be like really happy.

23:40I also want to say that for this book, again, because like Easy Peasy was like my – and you know what's so funny? I just have to pause in this moment. I always hate it when I'm interviewing people and they like answer a question that I want to ask them in like two questions and they answer it too early. So if this is too early, feel free to ask me again. No, I have no – I'm just on this ride with you. Okay. Yeah. If you want to say something that I'm interested in hearing about, then it's great for me. But are you ever like that? Like, I'm so mean, like, to my guests. I would never let them know.

24:07But I'm like, fuck, I can't believe they asked me that. I don't know. I think for me, I feel like I'm meeting someone at a party who I've followed on Instagram for a while. And I have things that I want to ask them and I have things that I know about them, but I don't want to make them feel like I'm moving the conversation too far. So it's always kind of like a jigsaw puzzle in terms of the questions. I get it. And obviously I would never make anyone feel bad. Right. Like, I never know. But between two podcast hosts, we can talk about it. Two pod hosts. So the only other thing I was going to say that I think if people feel, let's say, intimidated by savory baking, like, what?