474: Samantha Irby & Clare de Boer

29:00So there's like behind the scenes stuff. There's stuff in the kitchen. I used to deliver wedding cakes and we put a wedding cake scene in the pilot. where fictional Sam and fictional Dennis are driving the van and dropping off a cake and Sam gets the shits. And like almost fucks up these people's wedding by shitting in their wedding. And so like maybe there's a like backstage bakery show I could make. It sounds like the perfect like compliment to the bear. Yeah. Right. And because everyone thinks like bakeries are like so sweet and nice. And it's like your grandmother making muffins. And the bakery where I worked, my boss, Judy, had this deal with a work release program.

29:52So our kitchen was full of like giant hardened criminals like making pedophores. Yeah. Which is like that needs to be honest. I mean, that's like drama. People with an axe tattoo, delicately making a pettifor and chocolates. I mean, it was an incredible experience. She used to make cookies for Starbucks. She made lemon knots and carmelitas from way, way back in the day. Oh, man. And so there was a whole cookie production crew, and everyone was yelling all the time. And I was like, oh, man, I thought it was just like cute people making cupcakes. But no, it is people screaming at each other, sweating, yelling.

30:38I'm going to make, maybe I'll make that show. I feel like that show will happen. You've got the obvious chops to make it happen. Now, you probably picked up some skills working at a bakery. Are you pretty good with the oven? I, you know, I'm pretty good, but my wife is the baker. So I don't get in there because I don't, honestly, I don't want to make her feel bad. No, I'm just kidding. I love it. I do savory and she does the sweet, but I'm a pretty good baker. I bet you are. Now, okay, observation about Kalamazoo. Have you gotten into like the cream cheese frosting zone in Kalamazoo? I feel like everybody is using cream cheese frosting at some point.

31:16I haven't seen, not in Kalamazoo, not yet. That's the one thing. We're not there yet. Not there yet. You know what I like, do you remember Sarkozy? Yeah, I do. It's still there. Yeah, I know. And like I feel like all of like all of the bakeries in town make very grown up pastries. Right. Except for Sweetwater, which makes like things for children. I took Taekwondo next to Sweetwater. I went to Master Chung and I definitely went Master Chung breaking boards and then got that glazed cherry. Oh, let's go. But they make they they're like a place that has like Oreo cookie. I know. Donuts. And you're like, what the fuck?

31:54I'm like a hundred years old. I can't, like, eat that. But the other bakeries, like Victorian and Sarkozy, have those very adult, like, not sweet. Yeah. Where you're like, where's the sugar? So the thing is, maybe I should open a bakery. Wait, are you serious? Do you want to do that? If, okay, so my wife's dream is to, like, have a little bakery. This is real. This is not a bit. This is real. It's real. Let's go. She wants to have, so she's a social worker. Yeah, yeah, of course. Like, you know, you want to die after being a social worker for 20 years. Oh, she's 20 in. She's got a pension coming in.

32:34Well, no, because schools got rid of it right before she started. My mother, 17 years, kindergarten teacher, so knows that deal. Yeah. So I am her pension. Oh, man. So I got to figure out a way to get rich so that I can afford to lose all my money starting a bakery. The low margin business of restaurants and bakeries. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that is her dream, and I'm hoping to make it a reality eventually. So, okay, let's workshop this. So it's a bakery. Is it a cafe? Is there other elements to it? Are we doing straight, like, baked goods that are a little bit sweeter, I'm hearing? There's a need for, like, sweeter pastries but, like, a little more polished.

33:15Okay. So in my mind, it's very cute, and it's the kind you want to, like, hang out in. You want to, like, put, you know, take out your book, do your little laptop-ing. cool crowd you know yeah right yeah like very cool but not too studenty because you know kalamazoo's a college it's a college that's like burying the lead about kalamazoo it's an absolute college town it's got bilbo's pizza which is like number nine of ten for me i can't can't fuck with bilbo no it's no it's gross bilbo's and bimbo's pizza dude i know i know i know Bilbo's and bimbo's. Bimbo's right next to the bar with the mechanical bowl.

33:55Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's all class. Okay, so it would be, you know, like Sarkozy is very cute and clean. I want it to be cute and clean, but actually have like, oh, I shouldn't say actually, but have like delicious pastries that I would like. I love that. Would there be a coffee program? Yes. Okay, good. Kirsten's a big coffee person. I don't know anything about coffee. Do you ever go to factory? I am super close friends with both Dan and Emily. Dan's the best. I used to have an office above Factory on Frank Street. Emily and I shared a studio out there. I was wondering which, because you mentioned this in your writing, and I was wondering if it was Factory on Frank Street.

34:39Yep, on Frank Street. Me and Emily were, I mean, Emily's work, it's hard to work with an artist. Emily makes children's books. It's hard to work with an artist, like a visual artist, when all your art is like clickety clackety clack. You know what I mean? Like I can't turn the computer to someone and be like, look at this sentence, girl. This nut graph. I'm tearing it up. Let's go. But with like being surrounded by all of her work was like really amazing. And then we moved into a house where I could have an office at home. So I moved out. I didn't really. So you know Emily. That's cool. That's cool.

35:15I know. But Emily is in the book. She's the friend. She's the friend. She's the one I took to the Cheesecake Factory. Yeah. She also is the one who saw me embarrass myself at the sushi restaurant. I know. I'm linking to that essay from your previous work. And it's just absolutely everything you'd want from a lunch date gone wrong. Yes. But it has to happen. I mean, luckily we became like best friends because she is funny and has a sense of humor and like knew what was happening to me. Factory is great roasting though. I mean, legit like great roasting there. I'm into it. See, I don't understand roasting, but I'll take your word for it.

35:56But you do understand Grand Rapids. Let's talk about Bosna. Bosna. Bosna is, you shut out this place that I've never heard of. You went there on, was it your anniversary or Valentine's Day? Yeah. You drove up one hour north in Grand Rapids. definitely not known as a bastion of great food to me at least grand rapids michigan well you know grand rapids has a lot of cute little places love your west michigan pride there i mean i'm i've been there seven years i have to start like claiming it now if i'm staying uh grand rapids has like the kind of cute little brunch places they have madcap coffee which is like great very good coffee Very good.

36:35Very good. But Bosnia, like you get off 131, you turn right. It's right there. It shares a lot with a pizza hut. Uh-huh. And you go in. It looks like a bar. It's like dark wood, the whole thing, lots of beers. And the most incredible Bosnian food you've ever had in your life. What are you ordering? I'd love to hear this. I, okay, I get to start to eat in the car. I get fries. Yes. You take it to go. Yeah. Oh. Oh. Always. I get fries with they put like a lot of chopped up herbs and garlic and stuff on it. And they give you this dill sauce. I love dill. They give you this dill sauce to dip it in.

37:18It's outrageous. And then for that's the appetizer for the meal. I got to get a gyro always. But they don't serve it in a pita. They serve it in this Bosnian bread that's like puffy and soft, like what you actually like. Because like a pita, you know, you got it. It's like chewing an eraser. Exactly. It's excess. You need a little bit of that crisp to it. Yeah. So they have these puffy breads and they put all the Euro stuff in and it's really great. And then for later, I get a salad to take home with Euros on top. Oh, so it has the Euro meat, the marinated or seasoned, highly seasoned meat. Yes.

37:59And it's so good. Feta, tomatoes, cucumbers. Have you gotten into the Euro-Gyro conversation ever? People call them gyros here on the East Coast. What? They say gyro. Like, you look at me like I'm crazy. No. Let's, like, we have three people in the show of hands. How many people call it gyro? We have three producers. What? We have two out of three. Shalia, what do you think? For some reason, this is, like, the hill my mom chooses to die on. I'm from Massachusetts, and, like, I think most people say gyro. say gyro but like for whatever reason she like gets like very proud like she'll go somewhere and i think like a greek man must have complimented her once because she'll just go like oh well like i want to hear and like so it's like a thing i would like she is right yeah thanks julia for that okay so i grew up in evanston i grew up like down the street from the greatest greek restaurant on earth it's called crossroads it's small it's cash only It is amazing.

39:00If you are anywhere near there, you should go. And so I learned how to say all the Greek stuff early because we went there all the time. And it's Euro. I cannot believe Greek people let you guys get away with that. I don't know. It's some East Coast shit. It's like adding to your hatred for New York. Yes. We're just adding to it, right? Another mark in the negative column. I love it. Well, it's really fun to talk food with you. We could go on. So my wife, Tamara, ran into you at Trader Joe's. And she's a huge fan of yours. She was trying to be chill. She'd never be chill with me. But you had a wonderful interaction.

39:40Yeah. It was beautiful. It was great. And, like, I just think about you grocery shopping at Trader Joe's in Kalamazoo. Do people stop you in Kalamazoo? Yeah. I hope so. Because they're reading your books. Yeah, at Trader Joe's once I was in the—first of all, let's talk about, like, being at Trader Joe's. I only go for, like, the Trader Joe's snacks, and my wife likes the green wine. Like, I don't do my regular grocery shopping there. Oh, no, but you get the peanut butter pretzel chocolate? 100%, yes, like two bags. Have you ever been to Horrocks in Battle Creek? No, what's that? It is like a warehouse grocery store.

40:25Oh, nice. And they have every exotic fruit or vegetable you could want. Sam, let's go. Yes. Love it. Yes, we'll go. I walked in and like I almost started crying. I was like a green papaya. Wow. We got these little tiny like cucumber. Like they just have so much. Is it like a broker for the Midwest? It sounds like it might be something special. Well, I know there are a few in Michigan, but I don't know if it's – I don't know the history or the deal behind it. No, I appreciate it. It is amazing. Okay, Trader Joe's only snacks, but meeting your wife was incredible. I love when people talk to me. The checkout person at Trader Joe's once was like, I really love your work.

41:12And I'm like, listen, scream it. Tell everyone. um in Kalamazoo it happens less often than it does in Chicago yeah of course I mean you're and in New York too I mean yeah and I just like Sam I really really mean it you are such a a lovely human being and your your love for Kalamazoo is just it means a lot to me as a little I mean it like I'm no bullshit trying to be honest here like I was at I think at first I was like making fun of it a little bit because I was uncomfortable, right? Like, it didn't feel like my home, so I'm rejecting it before it can reject me. But I do love it. It is a good place.

41:56It's like progressive and nice and I haven't met a bad person there yet. Like, everyone I've met has been amazing. I have to shout out Rick and Stan's. You shouted, like, this is my favorite car wash. Let me tell you, Rick and Stan. First of all, for the young ladies who might be listening in Michigan, the young dudes who work there, man. Yeah. Smoke show? I bought, oh, gorgeous. I bought, this is what, like, what a pervert freak I am. They have, I am currently paying them, I believe,$29 a month for unlimited car washes. I've been doing it for six months because this little cutie was like, you know, we have a deal on.

42:48And I was like, uh-huh. OK. Guess how many car washes I've gotten? Two. Hey, man. I am averaging money there. $14.50. It was worth it. But it is the best. During Breast Cancer Awareness Month, they do use pink soap. Bless them. Wow. And there's like a stoner dog as like their mascot. Kalamazoo has like a real 90s, like Gen X kind of, and that stoner dog fits with that. Yeah, it is the best. The dudes there, like I said, hot, also nice. I never drive like into the right, you know, and they're always like, no, no, sweetie, over a little. And I'm like, okay, I'll tell you where to get over a little.

43:36I'm glad we could give them a shout out. Me too. Sam, we asked all guests in Taste Podcasts if you could write a cookbook or food culture book without the burden of time, meaning you have no deadline, or the burden of budget, meaning you have all the money in the world to execute this idea. What would that book be? It would be an IBS cookbook for sure. Love it. But like not a, you know, not like a medical one. It's like I don't want to research or talk to any doctors, right? Like that's terrible. It would be like, here are recipes that I eat when like my Crohn's disease is flaring or I've just gotten food poisoning.

44:15And basically it would be like applesauce. That's a whole chapter. Yes. How to make. So like I have all these ways of like zhuzhing up rice if I got to. OK, let me tell you how to cook your rice. toast it in a little oil throw a handful of garlic cloves in there some loose chicken bouillon and quarter an onion, throw it in and then cook the rice as normal, it's the most delicious rice I've ever had. So how much liquid are you putting in? You're talking about just a bouillon liquid? No, no, no. Okay. You have to go to the Mexican section of the grocery store and get the like shakable bouillon Not a cube.

45:00Not that better than bouillon. Although, I mean, we use that. Oh, it's better than bouillon. I mean, dude. Yeah, I love this. But I'm talking old school, like, shake a little chicken flavor into your rice. And that is my go-to. Goya has a great brand. I love that. Yes, that's what we use. We use the Goya. Their politics fucking suck, though. Oh, they do? They had some bad. But that's just. Let's just not go there. But anyways. Well, I don't watch the news. So I blacked out what you said. This is so great. So this you have the ideas, you have a recipe. Yes. Yeah. I would need like someone to someone who actually knows how to make food to give me some more ideas other than what I do.

45:41But if I can make a cookbook, that would be. IBS is great. I think Sam Mirby, this is going to happen. I know it's going to happen. I hope so. I told Alison Roman, my homegirl. Yeah. I was like, when are we doing the IBS cookbook? Collab. And she ran screaming from me. But someone will. Someone will. Someone will pick up the torch and make that happen. Well, Sam Burby, thank you so much for joining the Taste Podcast. Thank you for having me. This was the best.

46:16Claire DeBoer, this is Taste. Hi. Hi, Matt. So nice to have you in. Yeah, likewise. I'm a big listener. You've hit me up on Instagram about that. I really appreciate you saying that. I know you said you'd caught a number of episodes and now you're here in the studio doing our own. Yeah, Hannah Goldfield's my gateway. I listen to everything that she does and that's how I was introduced to you. Bless Hannah for that one. I think Hannah is a real, and I can't wait to see what she's up to at The New Yorker. I know there's some changes happening there and there's gonna be some cool things happening.

46:48But okay, you blessed us with some apartment 4F croissants and bread. thank you so much for waiting in line for us yeah well well worth it now like this conversation is going to be split into a couple parts because stissing house and i've been on record on the show is one of my favorite restaurants in the past several years it's up in the hudson valley we'll talk about that we'll talk about your your career in new york at jupiter and at king where you are a co-owner and co-chef at both but we'll also talk about your substack because you like to right. And, you know, you probably fill up your time with a few more other things.

47:22I'm joking. Mainly, mainly like picking up after scooter crashes and everything that comes with having three under four. Yeah. Three under four as well. That's a little bit like that's a little footnote, but not really. A lot of young kids running around. All right. But I like to start by asking, you know, we've a lot of listeners coming into New York this fall. What's good right now outside of your restaurants? What are you enjoying? I feel like I'm the most terrible person to ask. I really haven't. I'm a cave woman. I haven't sort of left. I've been upstate all summer on maternity leave with a newborn.

47:54And we just got back to the city for back to school. These croissants from Flora are fantastic. The first place that we stop on our way back in is always New World Mall. Yeah. There's a chonking noodle soup in the food court that sort of brings us back. And we're always hankering for really spicy food after sort of being holed up in Dutchess County. So that's the first stop. And then I love, we love going to Servos. We get to go out like maybe once every six weeks we go for dinner. That's the first. Just the two of you and your husband? Yeah, and the newborns. Oh, yeah. But a two top. A two top.

48:30A two top. A really, we're a restaurant's favorite. We're a 5 p.m. really quick turn. Well, tell me, how do you split your time between Stissinghouse and your other restaurants? Are you up at Stissinghouse for chunks and then you come back down? um so we're our life is very much led by the kids so they're in school last year we were monday through thursday in the city and then um friday through sunday upstate now we're going to be here for the full week um but you know opening opening jupiter i was there very intensely opening dissing house i was there very intensely you know king is a very mature well-run well-run restaurant and i really haven't been back on the line there or even sort of managing actively uh since i had Abe, my first, who's nearly four.

49:14And so the exec chef there now is Angeles. We call her, we call her Tina. She's fantastic. We've worked with her for many years. And Jupiter, the exec chef there is Lucy Gibson. And she was a senior suet king and we worked with her for several years as well. So there's really fantastic teams at both. And likewise, it's Dissinghouse. It's taken quite a while to find uh find the people that can really really make it work but we've got an awesome couple that i mentioned roelle uh and his wife jesse yeah um and cdc and pastry chef exactly exactly and they've got a fantastic son who's been sort of been living in the restaurant all summer as well same age as my eldest oh okay so it's a family affair yeah four-year-old running around that beautiful place we'll get to stissing house and and really talk about what you're what you're doing up there because it is absolutely a special restaurant um let's go back to your life growing up?

50:07What was food like growing up? Where were you growing up? My food was very, very good. I'm sure it was. I was in the UK in the countryside until I was four and then I moved to New Delhi, India. I lived there for seven years and then moved to Dubai. So lots of grandma's cooking in the early days, lots of thalis, rotis, dal for the next decade. And then on to some very good Middle Eastern food. My goodness, this is what a blend of upbringing. You know, your upbringing really showed you the world of food. Yeah, and I think the world of hospitality as well. I really can't think of sort of more welcoming cultures than sort of the South Asian and Middle Eastern.

50:51There's a way of welcoming and, you know, you walk through any door and the first thing they're like, what do you want to eat? Can I get you a cup of tea? So, yeah, a masterclass there. Yeah. And you find yourself at the River Cafe and you're working the line there and you're working through the stations. What's it like at River Cafe? What's your career like there? What's happening in your career? Because you ultimately went on to run several restaurants and chef. But was that like a really formative part of your life? Oh, totally. The place is singular. When I decided, I was thinking about cooking and I went to work for Ottolenghi in London.

51:27And I did a little bit of time there and fell in love with sort of the intensity of working on the line. And I really wanted to work at the River Cafe. So I kept going there and saying, what does it take? And they were kind of like, get lost. But also, you know, you could go to cooking school as a starter. I said, great, tell me where? They said Ballymaloo. Oh, yeah. So off I went and I kind of, you know, I just kept showing up. And then they let me into the kitchen and after a while I was like, do I work here? Yeah. And they were like, yes. That's kind of how it was. You just kind of started picking up the knives in the kitchen and sticking around.

52:03But it's an amazing place. I mean, there's no compromises. The food is fantastic in terms of the produce and the variety of things you see as a cook because the menu changes every day. you really get uh you really get a whole education um from butchery to um fish uh veg you learn you learn everything um pastry and pasta or when i was working there they didn't have a pastry chef so all of the line cooks cooked everything that's amazing what a cool thing to have like foisted upon you oh god amazing and i think um i think beyond the food it's a very special place um because it's a holistic dining experience that is not imitative of anything else.

52:46It's got its DNA. There's a tremendous amount of style. And it's the kind of food that is special, but you want to eat it every day, which is exactly what I want to cook and eat. Very cool to say that. I mean, it's like Chez Panisse in many ways on America's West Coast. And what can you say about Ruth Rogers and learning from Ruth Rogers? I think the biggest thing, I mean, she's an icon. She's one of the many trail, you know, I think when we opened King, everyone was like, oh, wow, you know, this is so unique. But I never felt, I've never felt like a trailblazer in any sense because we're, you know, 100 % riding on the coattails.

53:29You mentioned of Alice, of Ruthie, of Doreena Allen, of Ballymaloo. there's no shortage of these absolutely incredible women that we've sort of had the privilege and the pleasure to cook alongside. Yeah, I mean, I'm sure you're being modest. I think each restaurant has its own individual identity. You know, the pedigree does matter, but it's not everything. And I'm sure that time at River Cafe made you really think about hospitality as much as cooking, right? Because you're in the back of the house, but you also were understanding how the restaurant flows, right? Yeah, you get to see everything there because of the open kitchen.

54:06Exactly. You really, I think connecting the two, all of my favorite restaurants connect the two and it's not really a separate front of house and back of house. I mean, as a cook, I remember the most, my favorite part of being on the cold line there, you got to dress a salad and taste it three times in the process. Yeah. And then you got to put it up on the pass And then you could also watch the person whose salad you made take that first bite. And that loop of pleasure of tasting it and knowing it's delicious and then watching someone's eyes sort of pop a little bit. Is that what you look for?

54:40Is it eye contact? Yeah, I mean, I'm not looking to make eye contact with them. I'm watching for the contact that they're making with their food and that kind of like intense moment. And the thing about having an open kitchen, which we've had, you know, replicated at King and at Stissing House and even Jupiter, where it was really kind of, you know, a challenge to get that to happen. That's the joy of cooking for me is the joy of feeding people and sharing that. So I think the River Cafe was sort of the first time where I was in a professional kitchen, actually Otolenghi's as well, but getting to watch people enjoy the food.

55:17and that's really what it's all about, just the simple pleasure of eating. And those eyes popping out of their heads. Yeah, hopefully, hopefully, not always. Eye-popping salad. Who on earth made this? Send it back. I mean, the big salad at Stissing House, it's called the big salad. And really, you've got a real thing for salads. I do. I'm a salad fiend. You're a pro. I'm an absolute salad fiend. They're never big enough. I mean, there's a couple of places in the city that does do, you know, obviously King does an incredible salad, but I always order all of them, Romans and Fort Greene. They often have.

55:49They've got one that's always very large and they've got sort of a smaller one. And you have to get both. You have to get both. I haven't been to Romans in a minute. Yeah, I like a sort of a salad with a side of main course. Absolutely. And I think the big salad, you're like, it's definitely, you got to like, you know, cut the radicchio or the large greens in there. And I just like sometimes just eating with my hands. I'm eating a salad with your hands. Well, you're a pro, Matt. I'm trying. You've got to get the Jake Scooter and the ham, and then you've got to sort of form a radicchio sandwich with it.

56:24Let's go to 2016 to King. It's a collaboration with two partners, Andy Shee and Jess Shadbolt. And, you know, I've followed the journey through media. I've heard you on some podcasts talk about it. But it sounds like you really, really bootstrapped that thing to existence. Tell me about opening King. I'm trying to go back and actually remember it because I have this thing we've been asked so many times about those early days that I feel like I'm remembering what I've said about it rather than the reality. It's the reality. You've framed the question differently. So, I mean, what do I remember?

56:54I remember my mum scooting around on her hands and knees using a cutting board on her knees, scrubbing the tiles in the kitchen before we opened. I remember our gas being turned on the same day. I remember not being able to get credit with any of the distributors. Because of your newness? Yeah, yeah, no track record, no sort of social security numbers. And I remember also not having the money in the bank to necessarily buy stuff. So we got a Goodwill credit line from the deli on the corner. Wow. Just to get some essentials? A little bit of sugar. It was really, yeah, but it was really, it was wonderful because nobody was watching us.

57:45We had no reputations to sully. It was, we were young and very free. And we took a really long time to sort of come into our own. We knew what we wanted to do, but we couldn't, you know, we didn't necessarily always execute that. But because no one was looking and no one really cared, we had time to sort of make mistakes in private, which was a real gift. And and then I think, you know, it really took around six, six to nine months for people to start paying attention. And by that by that time, we had some, you know, excellent pork chops and we had a freezer that worked. OK, the freezer. So your mom's in the kitchen scrubbing the floor because she's being a mom.

58:29Yeah, she was being a mum. It was a real project. It was a really family project. Annie's parents, Annie's mother was washing the windows. I've still got a photo of her standing on the dumpsters out the back with a squeegee doing her part. And Annie's dad built out our entire trash room. It was pretty gross. And he was like, this is not good enough for Annie. We're going to, you know, and I think he spent the entire Christmas three weeks doing us a favor because we didn't have we didn't have the funding at that point. So he just like built the room. He built it out. He built it out. It was a real.

59:05Yeah, it was. Restaurants are gnarly. Restaurants are like 10x gnarly New York. It's just a really tough place. Wells would eventually shower praise on King. It would raise rise to fame. And it's still busy today. It's fashion week now. Is it pretty popping this week? Yeah, there's been a couple of Fashion Week events. And yeah, I think Pete Wells named it in a roundup that he did recently. And yeah, so it's hopping. So you're doing a cookbook. When's that out with King? That's a great question. Your guess is as good as mine. Sometime. So definitely I'd like to have your partners back to talk about that book when it's out.

59:42Yeah, we've got to. It's been great working on it. It's really cool to hear about King. And, you know, that was 2016. And since then you've opened Jupiter at Rock Center. But I do want this to be the Sissinghouse portion of the conversation. So let's go there. It's one of my favorite restaurants right now. And I've been five times in maybe 14, 16 months. I live like an hour and 10 minutes away. That is a bit of a commute. It is. But, you know, I say this not to like flex. Like I like to drive to restaurants. It's more when I find a restaurant I like, I go there a lot. And you've done this. So I'm really just for my own selfish ways.

1:00:16But I think our listeners should make the trip up to Pine Plains. tell us how did you find this very unique space i love that that's one of the big charms of the space is the space yeah i mean it's an incredible it's an incredible building um yeah i mean during covid i got a call from a friend of a friend um who lives in pine plains and they said listen i'm buying the building i'm looking for a chef will you come and take a look and i had just uh we just signed the rockefeller center deal um i had found out i was pregnant with my second son the same day so timing wasn't great timing was utterly horrific yeah absolutely horrific and um i just yeah my husband was like just go take the meeting whatever um so we went together and i walked in and i honestly hadn't felt that way um in so long um totally moved uh you know the The building's from 1782.

1:01:09Wow. And if those walls could talk. It's been a motorcycle bar. It's been, you know, the Marquis de Lafayette slept there. That's really amazing. It's been all sorts. It's got the oldest ballroom in America. If you have a fact checker, you should run all this by. No, we'll have a fact checker. But the upstairs is a private dining space and a ballroom. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we have amazing parties up there. Yeah. I couldn't not do it. It was completely unreasonable and irrational and would turn out to be one of the, you know, like all the best things in life, incredibly sort of challenging things to get off the ground.

1:01:49What was the state of the place when you got there? You mentioned it was a biker bar. I've heard from service there. It had most recently been a wonderful French restaurant run by Michelle and Patricia, who now have a restaurant down the road. They had been in operation for, I think, a decade or more. And they had decided to close down during COVID and the building was purchased. So the restaurant was really in working order. It had sort of 20 layers of wallpaper and lots of rugs. And the kitchen was closed, was mostly closed off. And so we redid the goal really with our sort of renovation of the restaurant was just to sort of restore it to our fantasy of...

1:02:26In. Yeah, of its glory days. You know, we stripped everything off, put fresh lime wash on the plaster walls. We did everything as much as we could in keeping with the time. You can't like fake the patina of the beams and the walls and you've got a great parlor with a hearth and you've got some cool comfy furniture in there. Yeah. Yeah. It does all the hard work for us. Yeah. The food. We'll get to the food. The food's okay as well. But when you're in that space and you're thinking about opening a restaurant built around an open flame, open earth, how are you thinking about that? Because I think it should be stated more that this is really hard to do, to run service, a busy restaurant, big restaurant with open fire.

1:03:10Yeah. There's no gas. There's no gas? In the front kitchen. Wow. In the front kitchen. So everything on service is coming out of the wood oven or the wood fired hearth. I thought you maybe had some sneaky gas lines. We have gas lines in the back. For baking and all that. We've got, yeah, we've now got, we've got an electric oven. We had no, we had practically no working oven when we opened. But we were gradually, as we prove ourselves, you know, buying a new piece of equipment sort of every few months. And we're almost, we're almost there. It's always a work in progress. Yeah, it's hard. I mean, I didn't go into it with much wood-fired cooking experience.

1:03:46We cooked, you know, we had a wood oven at the River Cafe. And so I had sort of blissed the lemon tarts in that. and roasted potatoes and chavis. But it has been, I've learned so much from the cooks we've had who've got a lot more wood fire experience than I do. You know, Raoul, who is the CDC there at the moment, has spent decades and decades cooking over coals. So it's really fun to get to work with him. My absolute favourite thing to do on the hearth is put oysters with just a large knob of butter directly on the coals. And the shell sort of acts as a frying pan, and they sizzle and steam in the butter.

1:04:33And then you take them off with the tongs and blow it a little bit, just so it's not going to scorch you and tip it back. And that's perfection. It's great. And let's talk about cooking over coals. Like New York City is essentially banned from New York City. So you're finding talent. And my question is about you're up in Pine Plains about an hour and 45 from the city. How are you staffing? It seems like that's a big challenge anywhere in America, but you're kind of like not in the most hotbed of people in the restaurant world. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. I mean, what I've learned, don't hire people that are looking to date.

1:05:13We've had, or find them a partner quick. Yeah, no, we've had very bad luck. with anybody that is, you know, looking to Tinder in Pine Plains and very good luck with anyone that's sort of... Nesting. Yeah, settled, nesting, happy to have nowhere to go other than their own backyard. So it took a while to sort of form our, what I hope is our sort of forever crew. But we've got a fantastic general manager, fantastic director of feasts, and, you know, the chef and pastry chef that I mentioned. And they all were, you know, lived in the city and had long careers sort of all over the world and came to the Hudson Valley post-COVID sort of for their next step.

1:06:01And we've been very lucky to... Do you move them up? Do you find them spots to live? I mean, that would be challenging, I would imagine. They've all found, they've all either had housing or found their own. um but yeah it's definitely not as affordable as it as it once was exactly it's hard i mean there's a real renting scarcity up in the area um but it's remarkable that you have such great service and it's it's kind of in the middle of nowhere though i love it i live up there myself let's talk about the hudson valley um owning a restaurant in the hudson valley um what's it like for you to think about uh you know seasonality but also just like all the products around you you name farmers on your menu um what's it like cooking there it's such a it's it's such a privilege we we um we started living there part-time and had our house there sort of i think five or six years before i opened um stissing house um and you know i think in the city people talk about sort of farm to table and um it it it almost feels like marketing speak i think those those words have lost a lot of value yeah and stissing house is surrounded by farms on all sides if you drive there from any direction you end up going passing you know um everywhere from sort of fat apple farm to uh sugar hill and you you just so those are the guys that we work with i think the the the the goal with the food at stissing house is is is to have very low ego low ambition and just really have a sense of place um reflect show show off all the work that everyone um in duchess County and beyond is doing, raising their animals and growing veg and then just cooking it simply over the wood fire.

1:07:44It's nothing new. It's nothing flashy. It's just, you know, a good roast chicken and a beer. Yeah. And a big salad, of course. And a big green salad. I feel the way you've just articulated that is super honest. And, you know, a lot of farm to table is put on like a pedestal and kind of like use this marketing jargon. but to cook it simply is not easy it's actually the opposite to cook simply over wood is like the hardest thing yeah because you're not just dealing with the food you're dealing with the fire you've got two ingredients um and you're constantly trying to sort of make them work together and you know at king we have gas and you become very it's you're controlling it um you're writing recipes to temperature yeah you're controlling it and and you know i think what what do line cooks do predominantly working on gas it's all about like you know turning your flame up and down deciding which pan you pull whether one that's preheated or one that's uh one that's cold depending whether you're trying to get a dish out in 12 or 10 minutes there's all these things that you're playing with um and you know what all the factors are and you're controlling them and then when you're cooking with when you're cooking with fire doing the exact same thing but instead of twiddling a knob you're doing 10 things to get that equivalent adjustment in temperature you're you know your it's how dry your wood is how thick you've chopped it what variety of wood you're working with we work with almost exclusively with ash um we work with a lot of fallen trees that are of different varieties yeah the borer is like yeah really tough up there yeah totally so loads of ash trees are dying because of um the emerald ash borer um so we we work with a lot of ash but it's yeah so all those variable factors in the wood itself how long it's cured for how long it's been in our basement versus oh did we did we get a dump on our lawn and it did it get dew overnight and then there's of course how long it's been burning for it's remarkable how many factors and then you have like you know all the other the shit hits the fan in the restaurants and it feels like you have to deal with all those other issues too not just um you know you have to you're not just like yeah the knob of an oven but as with all things the the more challenging the more rewarding as well so it's a really uh it's a very um it's a focusing it's a focusing thing to cook with fire.

1:09:56Is this a reason you keep the menu pretty static? I feel like you don't rotate the menu in a way. And that's actually, I think, a real strength. You know, I think, well, to be frank, I think that's a matter of staffing and training. There's so many reasons. There's a real sort of format to the menu. You know, we've always got oysters, the ham that we brine, cure and smoke, glaze in the wood oven. We've always got Jake's Gouda and we've always got whatever seasonal pickles. And then we've got a couple of salads, scallops cooked in their shells. And yeah, so there is a format. And more and more this season, I think as we sort of established ourselves, we're a little over a year old.

1:10:39I think word has kind of spread amongst the farmers and the foragers. And we get a lot more people showing up to our back door saying, I've got this. Do you want it? And we're going with that. But there are absolutely some things that don't change, couldn't change, will never go anywhere. I love that. Yeah, we'll talk about who is Jake because I feel the Gouda is always ordered. You're like serving punks of cheese and obviously I'm going to eat that. He's an incredible cheesemaker. Actually, him and Jake and his wife, Sylvia. She deserves sort of equal credit even though her name is not on the cheese.

1:11:11Give her like your two. Call Sylvia's Gouda. Sylvia's Gouda. So there are a couple of cheesemakers up in Deansboro and uh they're making they're making good in the truly in the dutch style um it's almost parmesani in terms of the sort of salt crystals but they use a cream it's raw milk and they uh they wash with cream um and rather than sealing it with wax which sort of allows the cheese to breathe a lot more uh when it's aging um and it's remarkable it's absolutely remarkable like opening up a new you know we get these giant wheels and every time we open up a new one there's sort of an instant carnival in the space everyone starts getting in there you know the servers start you know circling and everyone everyone wants a taste and I think that there's something that's just so spoiling this is the kind of this is the kind of thing that you can get in restaurants that you can't get at home or that I want to get in restaurants that I can't get at home you know you can buy jake's gouda almost anywhere and it comes in you know an inch thick slice vacuum packed and it's been cut and in that um in that plastic for you know you just don't know how long yeah um but when i go to a restaurant i want to have cheese that is cut from the wheel but please don't do anything to it you know you want i i want the simplest thing um but that is just slightly slightly inaccessible to me at home, sort of unless I was serving 136 portions of Jake's Guder a night.

1:12:41Yeah, those crystals are unique. You're not going to get the vacuum seal. And we can go on and on about the menu. I love it so much. And I really want to ask you about moving forward the next few months into the next few years. You know, you talk about the large formats and you have a lot of private dining up there. What do you want to do with Stissing? Where do wanted to take it i i i mean i have to confess that it's sort of um a playground for me i get that sense it's uh you're so creative and it feels like you can do a lot of things up there there's a lot of options yeah i mean the space is big the kitchen's got fire um i mean there's so many so many sort of ideas at play uh i'm imminently excited for a couple of things we've got uh this incredible uh incredible uh pizza maker anthony mangiare of una pizza napolitana he is coming up and he is going to be uh we're cooking together pine plains inspired pizza pies i mean it's just ridiculous he's going to be making you know his number one pizza in the world except with sort of jake scooter and ham and um so that's going to be fun uh to get to learn from him when's that happening uh i think it's the second or third monday in october um and then i i love um i love craft and um basket weaving and broom making and um so i've got together with deborah Needleman and we're going to be throwing a craft feast on December 10th.

1:14:02And at the moment, we're just in the process of sort of inviting. It's basically we're throwing a fantasy shopping event for that fit with like tons of food and a celebration of craft. Yeah, that probably will be in the pages of tea, obviously. It seems like. I mean, I haven't got there yet, but it's going to be it's just. Yeah, there's so much room and there's we can this, you know, last last Easter, I threw an egg hunt for kids. It all sort of starts quite selfishly with what would my, you know, what would I like? What would my kids like? And we had a massive Easter egg hunt and hundreds, you know, a hundred kids turned out and we threw a feast for children in the ballroom.

1:14:41And I mean, it was wild sugar high. Yeah. And then there's Pine Plains. There's the Festival of Lights where all the children in the town show up and get given decorations. Oh, fun. And decorate the entire town. And there are floats with lights on. And it's just there's so much community and there's so many talented people. One of our diners is a fantastic flutist. Flutist? Flutist, I think, is the right one, but I'll say flutist too. And he is going to do a dinner upstairs where he just sort of walks around playing the flute. But it's kind of, yeah, there's just loads of room and space. Community oriented.

1:15:19Yeah, and we've got such a strong team. We can really be playful. I love it. Do you make it out to the Hudson Valley for restaurants? No, no. I'm actually, I'm rarely in any restaurant after 5 p.m. I've, you know, with the three kids, it's, I cook at home. That's sort of the only, the only place I cook is at home. And it's very important for me that I attempt to, you know, make the attempt at getting my children to sit at the dinner table. Well, let's segue to that because when you're at home, you're cooking for your kids and you're just cooking for yourself and you've launched a sub stack, the best bit.

1:15:52It's cool. I like it a lot. And I it's remarkable that you find time to do it, but you're doing it and you've put out more than one, which so congrats. I think I'm on number four or five. I've probably got one I've got to do soon. Yeah. Just you got to get, you know, you need someone to like, you know, like an editorial calendar, like keep going, keep going. Yeah, I'm not. It's not quite that professionalized. I write them with a baby in the carrier on my walks. It's something to, you know. So what's the plan with this? What do you want to do with a subset? I'll link to the show notes. Definitely subscribe to it.

1:16:25Check out Claire's work. Well, I started it this summer just to keep myself company. I think my days normally revolve around talking about food, tasting food. You know, I'm ordering my plants on my doorstep and I'm talking to my neighbor about, you know, what she made for dinner last night and why it was good or, you know. So it's just it's constant until the day, until the time I get to bed at night. And having a new baby and being in the country are two sort of extremely isolating things. So I just I started it. I started it this summer so that I could just share all the things that are on my brain.

1:17:02Yeah, definitely download. Yeah, it's been it's been it's been really fun. And I've been so surprised by people's reaction to it. It's sort of an alarming moment when you realize that someone's actually going to cook a recipe. you've written and then the pressure is on and then the next one you feel so much more uh you just want to get it right for them uh if anyone's taking the time to to cook something well we like your restaurants a lot and we don't all know you as for some have met you really in person and had a conversation but like we like your restaurant so i think that's really a big part of why your subsec is growing and it's really exciting to read is like we just know you know you know well it's a it's a whole different ball game uh trying to trying to do it at home with groceries that have been, you know, delivered, pairs you didn't get to squeeze.

1:17:45Definitely. But I want to hear that. I want to hear about those tips. So keep going. Like, I know it's hard. I mean, this isn't like obviously for money. This is for like real passion. Yeah, it's also just a great chance to sort of improve one's writing and stretch your legs. I don't want to get to the point where, yeah, I don't want to be static. So it's fun to just keep trying. This is interesting. I've had a number of chefs reach out in the past few months specifically about this topic. And I actually am working with a great chef on A Piece for Taste to come out in a few weeks. But yeah, it's like chefs are thinking more than just what's on the plate, what's in the restaurant, right?

1:18:25Yeah. Yeah. I mean, these days, everyone's sort of diving into all sorts, product and writing. And there's so much going on. I think it's an exciting time. I think that there's just so many wonderful things to sort of having your own restaurants and getting to feel like you're hosting a dinner party for people that you don't know every night.

1:18:52But I think, you know, if you are the if you are the executive chef, you know, when I was when I was at King, I was working on the line every day and it was you were touching the food and you were cooking the food. And that's ultimately why I got into this business, because I want to cook and I want to feed people. and then as soon as you have two restaurants you're kind of really at neither um you're here and you're there but you're cook you can't cook it cook it cook at either of them um so i think it really makes for me like returning to the home um you know coincided with sort of having more restaurants having kids and that became the new center but but to keep to keep learning um i think is the goal um and you know you get to do that by having amazing people work in your restaurants and getting to look over their shoulder and see how they do things differently, how they do things in a similar way, having a conversation about it.

1:19:40And also for me now, I've started this, I've started, you know, the sub stack and you read the comments and you're like, you put that much salt in it. And it's like, well. Hell yeah, what do you think it tastes good? Well, yeah, that was my initial reaction. Then I was like, wait, crap, three tablespoons. Man, something's gone wrong. Oh, so it was a little bit of a fudge. I don't know, it's been a topic of hot tea. Big tea, little tea kind of gets a little mixed up. I don't know, yeah, yeah, yeah. For someone that doesn't ever write recipes down and never actually cooks from recipes. Yeah, three big teas can be tough.

1:20:07It's a work in progress. All right. Well, I really appreciate that you're actually writing and putting yourself out there. And I love it. On This Is Taste, we ask us about the discerning taste. So Claire, to close this interview, here's a little rapid fire fast and furious taste check. Are you ready? Yes. Let's go. The best morning pastry with coffee? Plain croissant. Just plain. No chocolate. Yeah. Love it. The best dessert period? after lunch like a fruity nutty whole mealy sort of squidgy fruit cake after in a scoop of ice cream or a sundae love the specifics now fruit cake i think about is a holiday thing but it's not that kind of a fruit cake like a cake with fruit in it like a you know like a uh wholemeal peach cake dorset apple cake that type of thing love it and you have the big coconut cake too as this every night yes that we get we get there are riots if we take that off the menu it It's great.

1:20:57It's big. It's bold. And it sits there in the dining room and sells itself. Yeah, it does. You have to make eye contact with her when you walk through the front. It's so smart. I love that. The best bread? Sparrow, Bush, Grayling, the local baker who's making bread for Stissinghouse in a hearth. The best music to have in your restaurant or dining room. It could be a band or a genre. Well, I think this is so specific to the restaurant because the music really should sort of layer into the experience, draw you into it. I want to have sounds that are familiar to people to make them feel comfortable, but not lyrics they know because I want them to be focusing on their conversation rather than sort of singing along.

1:21:35So, you know, at Sittlinghouse, you're having a beer by the fire, throwing your peanut shells in, you're listening to the sounders, Taj Mahal, the band. King, you know, we're a French and Italian restaurant, but we don't want it to be a theme park. So we sort of use more contemporary, but like really clean R &B. and some jazz so there's not too much noise. Yeah, very sight-sensitive. Clean R &B is amazing. That's a great way to put it. I think it's like a little more like tempo is like moderate. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's up and down. Yeah, and it also needs to like, you need to get the groove on as the night progresses.

1:22:10Yeah, yeah. Sometimes you need to use the music if the room is not full enough to like get the party started. It really depends time of day, how much light, um how many martinis in you know what's on draft like so many factors is there an absolute no go for a certain music genre or a band uh yes i think that there's so many you know i i loved there's certain songs that i used to love to play at king and now they're on playlists all over the city and um that sort of automatically is a strikeout yeah i got it all right favorite new New York City restaurant classic edition. Oh, God. It's been so long since I've been out.

1:22:51Oh, Saravanabhavan in Murray Hill. It's a South Indian spot, actually, that I grew up with. They had it in India and in Dubai, and they do the most amazing veg thales. And it's been here forever. It's an absolute classic, really light, the most delicious. dosas rasam dal go there love it favorite new york city restaurant the new dog in town um i'm gonna go with my local winner in the park uh daniel eddie has expanded recently to prospect park um and i go there every day yeah you just it's part of your routine yeah it's are you running are you walking are you joking i'm pushing a stroller with uh three three kids on it sort of avoiding dogs because they've all yeah they're all uh traumatized yeah yeah favorite fellow chef to hang out with uh jess angeles lucy audrey um all of my compatriots at king and jupiter love that your favorite chef to learn from oh at the moment i'm just really looking forward to making pizzas with anthony yeah at stissing house yeah he's he's great i really like his career a lot moving around the country he's a humble guy yeah placed in jersey a place in sf a place in new york Now he's going to be assisting us one night only.

1:24:09Yeah. And Monday in October. Yeah, I think it's the 23rd. Don't care. Won't quote you. Your favorite cookbook of all time? Nigella, How to Eat. Yeah, easy one. Have you met her? She's eaten at King a couple of times, and I've been excited by that, but I've not spoken with her. Your favorite recent cookbook discovery? I'm a cookbook hoover, but I actually recently, I just, it not you know Martha entertaining this is a very old cookbook I recently picked it up at the Kent um library sale and I was kind of unaware of Martha pre-snoop yeah um this is all new to me oh my goodness um and I you know there's like 48 books how exciting it's like the Goosebumps series and I'm about to I'm at the beginning of the thrill um she uh I love I mean I love it I love it this is the 80s maximalist I don't necessarily cook from recipe books I read them And I look at the pictures and the photography is so transportative.

1:25:08You know, she's there with like a wedding, carrying, I don't know how, carrying a wedding cake that's sort of taller than she is. In the most spectacular sort of centerhole colonial farmhouse. And it's just, it's just, it's just, yeah, it's gorgeous. I love Martha from that era just looking so striking, beautiful on the cover, you know, with that knowing smile. Yeah. It's really. I'm new to it. So I'm at the beginning. Have you checked out like the 80s television shows? No. She's actually coming to do an episode with us at Stissinghouse in a couple of weeks. So this started in the name of research.

1:25:48And now it's just like totally, yeah, for pleasure. What are you going to make? What are you doing with her? um she loves the she loves the oysters um she's slightly mad for the pheasant um and then she also um i think had a queen of puddings that she wants us to cook together that's exciting wow having martha in the house i can't wait to watch the episode it'll be really fun your favorite vegetable a father's in may yeah very specific i love it it's like a two-week season here right it's like two weeks no i make it last a little bit longer you make it last a bit longer i think i've had it up there uh okay your favorite quote-unquote british food um jersey royals uh fish and chips victoria sandwich um dorset apple cake flapjacks tiffin I mean, that's a very long list.

1:26:46It's a long list. Your favorite quote unquote Dutch food? Oh God. Gouda. Yeah. I mean, it seems like there's a real, that's a real mission statement, having Jake's gouda on the menu. Yeah. An accidental one. Yeah. I love it. A couple more. Your favorite sandwich? The bit you rip off the baguette before you make your sandwich. Yeah. Yeah. I love that part. And you put a little bit of butter on it. If it's soft enough and available. If it's available and soft enough. If this is right at the supermarket or the bakery, there's none of that around. I love that. Last one. Your dream cookbook to write, personally, not a king book or a stissing book, but you personally.

1:27:32I guess, I mean, this is so reflective of sort of where I'm at now, But I would want a companion for the seasonal and sensual eater who's cooking within the constraints of sort of normal life. Lots of chaos. No farmer's markets. And lots of mouse to feed. I can't wait. I think you're on your way through Substack. It's obviously a theme there. And you're on your way. And I can't wait to read that book. It's going to happen. I know it. We'll see. We'll see. Claire DeBoer, thank you so much for joining This Is Taste Thank you very much for having me, Matt It was a pleasure

1:28:14This Is Taste is hosted by Eliza Abarbanel and me, Matt Rodbar The show is produced by Shalia Harris and Pat Stango and edited by Clayton Gumbert Theme music by Steve Rydell Visit Taste online at tastecooking.com and make sure to subscribe to our newsletter for updates on all cool things that are happening