478: Inside New York Times Cooking with Ali Slagle & Emily Weinstein

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0:31I cook a lot of recipes from that app and I'm always looking at what the commenters are doing and what they think and what worked for them and what they would do differently next time and then of course the comments are also just full of these like mini soap opera comments like people just come to like lay it all out and like we really love those people This is Taste. I'm your host, Matt Rodbard.

1:22New York Times recipe newsletter, Five Weeknight Dishes, which reaches millions of readers each week. Ali Slagle is a cookbook author and a key contributor to New York Times cooking. I spoke with him at a recent live event we hosted at Talaya Beer Company in Williamsburg, Brooklyn. I hope you enjoy it.

1:49my name is matt rodbard i'm the editor-in-chief of taste and the host of this is taste which is a podcast we're recording it live so this will be on our feed this is taste is the name of the show thank you shalia harris our producer for being here and thank you talia for hosting us this is a wonderful space and i think maybe the first of many conversations we'll have here for taste but But Emily Weinstein and Ali Slago, welcome. How are you guys doing? I'm great. Thanks for having us here. I love talking with you. We've done it before, and you have one mic, so you can shift between the two and do it that way.

2:25Thank you. And this is our third conversation. Ali, you've been on the show a few times. And I want to first talk a little bit about where we're at right now, which is the fall restaurant season. It's like we're all going out to new places. is Emily. You're the editor-in-chief of New York Times Cooking and the Food Desk. So you run the show. You top edit the critics, or not top edit the critics, but you know what the critics are reviewing. I do know it. Yes, I know what the critics are reviewing. That is true. All right, so the question is, each of you, a couple restaurants in New York that you're really, really enjoying right now that you're dining out at.

3:01Well, there are so many new ones, and I can only go out so much, and also I cook a lot, as evidenced by the fact that that we've got this cookbook here that we just released. So I rarely go to the same places twice, especially in the time of year, you know, when a lot of restaurants are opening, which is the fall right now. And then in the spring too, a little bit. So I've been to a bunch of places I really like, but I've only been once to each place. So I've been to, yeah, I've been to Le Vaudour, which is a really cool French restaurant on the Upper East Side. The Upper East Side might not sound cool, but the restaurant is amazing.

3:38Amazing. And I went to a place called Eel Bar that I really, really liked. And that's, is that Nolita? Is that Lower East Side? Lower East Side, I think, is my calculation. I'm trying to picture it. Yes. Yes. And that was really great, too. And Bungalow. Bungalow is an amazing Indian restaurant in the East Village. Yeah. And I loved your colleague Priya Krishna's review of it. That was a big splash, I thought. Yeah. It was in the three-star review, which for us is an excellent review. and this is a really unusual restaurant. It's big, it's raucous, it is in fact very, very hard to get a table.

4:14It's Indian cooking. There were dishes I had never had before. The flavors were amazing and the chef there is actually, he's the host of MasterChef India, which I think I read somewhere hundreds of millions of people watch MasterChef India and he is like unbelievably charming. so he spent basically the whole meal, the whole time we were there, just standing in the dining room taking selfies with women. It's very charming. And the food was outrageous. It's a cool experience. Oh, I have nothing to add. I don't live here. Okay. All right. Okay, we'll give you the pass on that because I know you live on Long Island.

4:59But Ali, let's get a sense of how you fit into this universe. You know, Emily, you're the editor of New York Times Cooking. You're also the editor and author of this book. But Ali, you're here because you play a big role in the book. And talk about how you fit into this world of New York Times cooking. I think what's so cool about New York Times is that there's like the food side. So there's the restaurants, there's going out and eating. And then they are so good also at the cooking side, like helping you in your home kitchen. And that's kind of where I come in. I also don't go out because I am always cooking.

5:30and the food quantity in my house is a little out of control. So I really, I think my recipes speak to like the average home cook who just like needs to eat food every night and just wants it to be as enjoyable and delicious as possible. Well, we're going to dive into the book, but I have one more question. Emily, just set the table about your role at the New York Times, at New York Times cooking and New York Times food. I mean, you've been there for a minute and we have a great episode. I'm going to link to in the show notes for our show and for listeners. But tell us what you do exactly, because it's kind of more than most people actually realize.

6:05Yeah. So as you mentioned, I am responsible for, you know, what we think of as the food section. So that's all our restaurant criticism. We've been publishing best of lists across the country. So we used to really just focus on New York and now we're national. We've got restaurant recommendations in cities across the country, including a 50 best list that people really love. It includes our journalism, all our reporting, including our investigations, actually. And then I've got NYT Cooking. And NYT Cooking is this crazy, expanding, exciting thing. Several dozen people work for NYT Cooking, just the editorial part.

6:45and then we've got a ton of people also who work in product and engineering and design it's a huge huge effort um and um i lead the editorial part of that effort and plus the newsletters who subscribes to the newsletter at nmit cooking it's like literally everyone's okay who has like we're not we're not saying names here but who has a favorite person that they get in their inbox All right, a few people. We won't get into names, but I have a favorite as well. Let's talk about dinner, the topic of your book, Easy Weeknight Dinners. And I'm going to ask each of you, well, first, I feel this book, it could be retail weeknight dinners for people who really just don't have the time.

7:28That's really the theme here. And really, all the recipes are under an hour. And you really take great pains to make sure that these recipes are so well tested that they don't take the time. So tell me, each of you, was there a time in the past couple weeks where you literally had no time for dinner and you made dinner and it was good? It doesn't have to be good. It could be like, okay, you don't have to say it was good. Emily, then. Yes. Yes, definitely. And I made a recipe in the book. I made the chili crisp fettuccine Alfredo. Has anyone made this recipe here? Oh, God. The bartender is raising her hand.

8:08yes and it was incredible you know I'm I get takeout sometimes I'm not big on takeout it's not philosophical it's not moral I'm just it's like not where my head goes I would much rather find something in my home and I keep all sorts of things you know in my freezer in my fridge that can help like frozen dumplings is a big one for us lately but yeah I'm always gonna like pull it together to cook something as opposed to ordering something. I totally agree with you. Last night, actually, yesterday was a really big cooking day for me. So I had cooked maybe like four or five recipes. And like the thought of food was not appealing.

8:49But I also believe in like eating something for dinner and like closing out the day. And all I just wanted was a green salad. But it was like, what am I going to do anyway? So it was just arugula and baby spinach and basil and red wine vinegar and olive oil that I had just like truly went like this in the bowl. And there was something about the texture and like the sweetness and the spicy. Like it just was so Moorish and so good. And I was like, I didn't do anything. Like this is awesome. And that was your dinner? That was my dinner. And then my boyfriend ate everything. All four other things.

9:24Okay, let's, before we get, let me ask you, Ali, What's it like day to day for you developing recipes for the times, writing for cookbooks as well? When you talk about a big cooking day, what does that mean exactly for you? I usually start cooking like right when I wake up. Like basically when I have my first cup of coffee is like my peak thinking cooking time. So like when the coffee is done is when I start like depreciating in attention span. um so I start cooking at like 7 a.m and then I go until I am exhausted really um so usually it's like three or four recipes a day and that might mean like doing one recipe over and over and over again running to the grocery store like as many times as I need to or I'm doing like a couple that I'm working on in the mix but it's like a lot of like cooking dishwashing thinking editing whatever like just trying to hone the recipe back to you Emily you know you look at the contributor list and you can open up the early pages and it's like you know yawande you've got eric kim you've got rick martinez i'm just naming if you got ali slagle it's like you know you've got this deep venture like katie and lebron drafting the nba all-star game here um you've got so much talent and it's credit to you for developing the talent how did this book come about um and how do you work with all of these contributors in the book well so the the book came about um you know in part because we have a newsletter devoted to weeknight cooking and that that's the one I write we have several NYT cooking newsletters and the one I write is called five weeknight dishes and um we launched that newsletter because we were doing a bunch of audience research actually about meal planning we're like how do we help people meal plan better and we were meeting with sort of focus groups and it was all very interesting and then we realized that the problem that these particular people needed us to solve wasn't exactly meal planning.

11:21They kind of actually had a sense to do it. The real problem was that they didn't have the recipes they needed to construct the plan. And once they had the recipes, they were able to figure it out. And we looked at what we had in MIT cooking, and we're like, we're not doing enough to meet these people's needs. And what are we doing here if we're not meeting people's needs? right? We want to give you something incredibly delicious to cook. And like, we want to help you out. And if we're not helping you out, like, let's call it a day, right? So we ended up launching this newsletter. And now a few years later, we have this book.

11:55And I'm just always sort of beating the drum for this kind of cooking. This is how I cook at home during the week and often on the weekends too. Like, it's not like I spend every weekend cooking eight hours on Saturday. I would love, by the way, to spend the weekend cooking eight hours on Saturday. I would absolutely love that. It's like a laminated pastry or something. I know. Get that sheeter out. It's like Allie's drinking her coffee and like developing five recipes and I'm at home like rolling out dough. And then it sounds great. I would love that. Unfortunately, it is like not realistic right now.

12:26So this is really how I cook at home. And we hired all these incredible recipe developers. I mean, first and foremost, Allie. Allie has the most recipes of anyone in this book, any one person. And at the office, we all just love and respect Allie and her work so much. She has a real genius for this kind of cooking. And I remember a few years ago when you first started working with us, whoever was editing you emailed me and they're like, Allie Slagle, man. Allie Slagle. and like it kind of just built from there um yeah so and that's and and we are always asking our recipe developers they do all kinds of recipes but we are always asking them like hey is there anything we can do in under 30 minutes or like they'll have a recipe that's close and we're like can we take a few ingredients off the list like does this need a gremolata and people work with us and i think people are starting to understand too how valuable this kind of cooking is to readers So let's actually get into some really specific questions about the cooking and dinner.

13:34And the first topic is feta, which you mentioned briefly. So you write about it in the intro. Feta is like a love for both of you. It's featured in the book prominently. So each of you, let me know, why is feta the perfect ingredient for this type of cooking, this 30-minute, 45-minute cooking? So I asked Emily what her 40 forever ingredients are, which means like if you would only cook with 40 ingredients for the rest of your life, what would they be? And we both have feta on our list. So this is a great question. I think what's so good about feta is it is both salt and acid. So to me, it's like Parmesan and lemon in one.

14:15And oftentimes when your dish is like, not so good, like it really just needs salt and acid. And feta does both of those things. and for me too it's in a form where like I don't actually have to cut it you know you can just kind of like rip it with your hand and it it works I mean what you just said let's let that sink in it's parmesan and lemon that's like super dope I love that agree I so agree I'm like thinking this is like a genius statement and you're so good at that I I love um the way feta um is so it's like always kind of there in your fridge, but you have to unlock it. Is there another example of feta in the book or from your own cooking?

14:56Because I feel like you have feta for days. In this book, there's chickpeas with cherry tomatoes and like a hot honey thing. And then the feta actually bakes alongside. So you have like this curdy, charred, salty against like the sweet honey. And then also So in the front, there's like a vegetable feta sheet pan thing. So what's also cool about feta is like it can be a warm main almost, and it can also be like a topping, like a salty, cold garnish. Emily, you have thoughts on feta. I know you do. You're like, you're grabbing for the mic. I know. I'm just waiting here for my moment. Yeah. Well, actually, a lot of what I learned about cooking with feta, I learned from Allie because I just used to put feta in salads, not to say just feta and salads is amazing.

15:45But, you know, there aren't a lot of recipes in the book that are just for summer. And that was a deliberate decision. This book needs to work for people all year round. But if there is one single ingredient that is not summer produce that should be in your fridge all summer, it's feta. It pings off of like all that produce. It's amazing. Like a tomato salad with feta is so good. It's so good. It makes zucchini like okay as well. Sorry. Sorry. I mean, like I don't hate zucchini, so. Showed my card. Sorry. All right. So back to you, Allie. Let me ask you about this ranch chicken dish, which it just like jumped out of the page.

16:26So, oh, we got some in the back who's a ranch chicken fan. All right. Here we go. Well, you mentioned the head note. It's like ranch chicken, but you use ranch in a couple ways. And the show is very ranch positive. So please tell us about this recipe. so the recipes you make a ranch out of yogurt with and mayonnaise and then you schmear it on chicken boneless skinless chicken breast and sear it and so the chicken is actually like incredibly browned and crisp in a way that you always want a boneless chicken breast but it like it's kind of hard to come by and then you have the creamy ranch to put on top of the chicken as well so I think kind of like the underpinning of the recipe is like make a sauce and use it as a marinade and the sauce and so you're getting the cooked like browning and the raw sauce in one and I think like one of the keys of weeknight cooking to me is like that you are doing more with less whether that's like fewer steps fewer ingredients whatever and so like if you can use a sauce or like a component in two ways cooked and not cooked in this example like you're just getting more out of you having to do less.

17:33Very smart. So Emily, let me ask you, at the Times, I mean, you're always good for a good condiment story a couple times a year. So I mean, really, like, I mean, I've had Julia Moskin always writes, like, something about, like, a new type of, like, there's definitely a mayonnaise story, like, once every, like, four years in the New York Times. My question, how do you, as a desk, think about condiments? Wow. Sorry, I had to ask that very straight. How do we think about condiments? we're we're very condiment positive in addition to being ranch positive um you know condiments are fun to report on and they're fun to use in cooking um condiments always almost always um bring a huge flavor moment or it's something actually like mayonnaise where everybody has a brand that they always buy like minus hellman's um i don't agree with other choices so people have like they have like firm opinions about the condiment or it's something um it's something that like really is exploding with flavor and so people get excited about like um i think julia moskin actually wrote a story this year about hot honey which is something that's been around for a while um invented in brooklyn i know you could say yes invented in brooklyn i think yeah yeah dave saw honey i first had it at poly g's which is in greenpoint nearby and they put it on pizza and i was like well this is amazing um and now it's sort of um it sort of reached a point of ubiquity where we would write about it in the times and say as much and everyone gets excited you know um it's just it's fun it's like the zeitgeist i think we all see the the cpg brands marketing condiments to us like chili crisp you dug into that topic really well you know that was a good one too we definitely covered chili crisp we're still covering it's still it's still a topic um emily i'm gonna ask you um a theoretical question because i think you're equipped for this so you're walking through whole foods um you've ended your day you you you know you're you're busy and you're you're thinking about dinner and you end up in the seafood counter Because I think the seafood counter is like we all have aspirations to cook more seafood.

19:47We love seafood. We're looking at the cases. There's like lots of different, there's whitefish and there's salmon, etc. How are you buying something from Whole Foods, taking it home and making a meal in 30 to 45 minutes? That is a good question. People are very nervous about cooking fish if they're not used to it. They're not dev home cooks. Fish is expensive, right? Totally. And whole fish totally freak people out. I do cook whole fish at home. And there's this aura of like, wow, this is so easy to mess up, right? And people just don't know very much about it. And I think that all coalesces into a sort of like anxiety around cooking it.

20:36And so people don't do it. um well the boring answer is because i'm usually also feeding my children um they uh really love salmon salmon is an easy sell for them um we eat wild salmon um so i'm buying and i buy like a side of salmon you know i just which is you know i buy like one big piece basically instead of the individual pieces it's you know it's i don't know it just makes sense to me to cook it that way it it's on a sheet pan it's not like crazy huge um and because wild salmon is leaner i'm cooking it in a lot of fat putting like extra olive oil on that pan or extra butter um and they'll eat it and then i will just keep theirs really simple i'll put a little salt on their side of it and then on our half lately i've been like our meaning me and my husband the adults um uh i'm just like dumping za 'atar on it.

21:32I have like a big jar of za 'atar at home. And then you drizzle it with olive oil. And it's just, it's, it's totally delicious. It's really simple. Um, I roasting it. You're roasting it with, Oh yes. I forgot to say I'm roasting it. I'm turning on the oven and putting the salmon in the oven on a sheet pan, like probably about four 25 and check it often. Um, I do, I wish I could get more people to cook whole fish at home. I do that when it's just me and my husband, I will pop whole fish in the oven. I'll stuff some herbs and lemons in there. I mean, it's cheaper and it's often pretty fresh. I mean, you can guarantee if you look at the eyes, you can actually see the fish.

22:09I know. We published recipes for whole fish because we think people should eat them. There are a lot of really good reasons to eat them. There are a lot of sustainable options. Yeah, people don't go for it. But when it's just me and my husband, I will do that. Allie, same question. You might have a different result. You're looking at the counter you live in amagansis so you know you know you got some nice seafood out there might be a little different story what's your answer for this question um i just would also like to give a plug for wild salmon if you are afraid of wild salmon i did write about wild salmon because i also think it's really amazing but it it does take if you're used to farm salmon like it takes a little bit of a mental a couple mental steps so i would suggest it um in terms of like is fish scary and what do I buy probably the most sustainable thing you can do is cook and not waste whatever fish you do buy so if you're gonna buy something like really cook it and don't like let it sit around and question it um and then I would say like really throw it in the oven I I would go lower temperature like 300 325 so that it doesn't dry out and it would work for something leaner like wild salmon and you kind of like you don't have to like hit the moment when it overcooks it it's like a slower more patient affair or if you like crispy skin just like in a skillet the whole time on the skin side over medium heat and the the like gradual heat will cook up the fish i think like basically those are the two things you need to know and pick one and It'll work.

23:40Very smart. Ali, sticking with you, you take those store-bought Gnokis that are challenging. I think we look at them and we question ourselves when we want to buy them. But we should buy them because there's a lot of cool things you can do with them. And they're affordable and they're already there. And they're in your cooler, basically every grocery store. So tell us about the way you embrace these. You've embraced them in your books. You've embraced them on the times. How do you cook with these gnocchis? I want to know how Emily cooks with them. But I learned about those store-bought gnocchi from Nigella Lawson.

24:20So if it's good enough for her, it is definitely good enough for me. But basically she was like, don't think of it as gnocchi because it's like too chewy. Think of it as a potato. Like what do you want to do with a potato? Like you want to get it crispy. She, in some book of hers, she calls it like instant roasted potatoes. and she just like roasts them on a sheet pan and serves them with mustard. I was like, wow, that's so cool. So don't think of it like gnocchi. Think of it as like a potato chew or something. Working on the rebrand here like that. And basically like get them crispy, like add a little sauce, add some vegetables, but don't expect fluff.

24:57Expect like a good mochi chew. So how do you achieve that exactly in the pan? Like is there a technique that you can point to? So you can either brown it in a pan in olive oil. In the book, there's the skillet gnocchi with burst tomatoes and mozzarella, I think. Or you can roast it in a sheet pan with a lot of olive oil. I've done it like with sausage on the sheet pan coming soon to New York Times cooking. or what else have I done brussels sprouts in the skillet so so it's just like a I don't know you just brown it but you don't have to boil it I guess I should say you don't have to boil them first just brown them yeah Emily your adventures with gnocchi what do you think um they're impossible to stop eating yeah yeah right once you have toasted them in the skillet and put some salt on there it's like i also first learned about them from nigella lawson but the recipes i cook are actually mostly alleys you know they're delicious and she does a lot with this um but yeah every every one of these recipes starts with the step where you toast it and then you put it aside and i'm just like snacking on them just toasted before i even put them back in the pan it is it is dangerous but um delightful well i appreciate the gnocchi cosign because i think we all like have second guessed ourselves but there are a lot of gnocchi recipes um Emily back to you now it's 10 years since you've had NYT cooking yeah and many of us we think of NYT cooking as the app perhaps or the website or the newsletter um but amongst all of these platforms there's comments there's us the community commenting and and and reading the comments because I think Eric Kim's been on a bunch of times and we've talked about the comments he reads the comments Ali, I'll ask you the same.

26:49But first you, Emily, let me ask you, how does this community play out in your recipe development? It's striking how large it is. It's very, very large. If you go around our country, NYT cooking is in a lot of homes, and that's remarkable. That has not always been the case. It's something you should be very proud of. How do you think about your community, and how do you learn from them? We love our community and it really has a life of its own, the NYT Cooking Comments. NYT Cooking Comments actually have their own Instagram fan account, which if you do not follow it is amazing. We all follow it and we all at the office love the comments.

27:36So first of all, the commenters are very smart. They're really good home cooks and I'm not talking about the, I shouldn't maybe the ones who are like I swapped like the sugar for flour and the pork for and the pork for mushrooms and then I added some lime and it was disgusting we're like well like follow the recipe um maybe not maybe not that but um I I look at the comments before I cook a recipe for the first time I am just curious just as a cook and I I should also say I'm like an NYT cooking power user. I'm a super fan. I cook a lot of recipes from that app. And I'm always looking at what the commenters are doing and what they think and what worked for them and what they would do differently next time.

28:25They're really thoughtful. And then of course the comments are also just full of these like mini soap opera comments. Like people just come to like lay it all out. And like We really love those people. They're just amazing. They feel comfortable and they're just going for it. Is there any first name that you circulate around the office? Like, wow, we have another one from blank? I don't. I see you dodging this question. I am not aware of that. All right. I am not aware of that. Fair enough. Fair enough. Yes. All right, Allie, back to you. Do you read the comments for your own recipes? I do read the comments.

29:04mostly to make sure that I didn't make an error in my recipe because people will tell me if something is confusing which I appreciate because sometimes things are confusing. I do read them. My favorite comments are the ones like on nostalgic recipes like I do a lot of classic dishes and people love to kind of tell their stories about the recipes. I just published a grilled PB &J which is like a toasted buttered toasted PB &J and is really amazing but this one, I mean, the comment section is like, if you need like a pick-me-up, please go read this comment section. But this woman was like, I've been eating this for 90 years.

29:44And I just like, I had to sit with that. I was like, wow, like this really takes her back. And she explained like how her mom had a special dish that she would, anyways, it's a, I really appreciate those stories because it puts the food in a larger context. Do you ever jump in and comment and reply and like maybe not scold or maybe not disagree, but have feedback on comments? I don't jump in because, like Emily said, I think the community has a life of its own, and I don't want to, I don't know. I don't want to insert myself. Fair enough. Okay, what are you going to say? Yeah, we're not meant to be part of it, weirdly, right?

30:21Like, yeah, that's how I feel, too. I was like, let them talk, you know? Can I say one more thing, too, about the commenters? So we did just celebrate our 10th anniversary of NYT Cooking, a few weeks ago, actually. And it was, it was really amazing. It was an amazing process to think about how we were going to sort of cover it, you know, and we agreed really early on that we really wanted it to be steered by what people loved, like what the, what the home cooks love, what readers loved. It wasn't going to be our favorites. It was going to be the recipes that people return to again and again and also the ones with the best comments we wanted to put the community front and center and now that we've started talking about it i think we should do that more there's just a lot of really rich stuff there um but i mean that's what we thought of when we thought about kind of marking this anniversary it's like oh the commenters are all about and you put commenters in the book too there's quotes yeah their voices are in the book and it's it's really fun.

31:27We have comments on a lot of the recipes, and they're great. Yeah, it's cool. Back to you, Allie. One more recipe question. There's a recipe that's pork chop and preserved, and that's it. And mustard. And what? And mustard. And mustard. Sorry, I forgot about that. So, there's three components. It's pork chop, preserved, and mustard, and it seems like it's the most simple and amazing way to cook. You could probably do it with chicken, too. Explain how these three things come together so um one of my personal shortcomings is i really struggle with making sauces i get very overwhelmed by all the measuring spoons and like the tinkering um so it's like making a sauce is kind of like making a gradient and it all has to come together and it just is very hard for me so my solution is just like to color block basically like to just take like two extremes of the spectrum and put them together and hope that they taste good together um and that is what this sauce is like it's just whole grain mustard and um i think it's cherry preserves or any apricot i don't i don't really remember but basically like they're so different in terms of what they're contributing but they both work well with pork um so it it like is one of those things where it's like you have to try and see if it works and then if it does you're like great like let's do it and it works so you're searing a chop you're pulling the the cut you have the fond in the pan we all have been there like what the fuck do I do there's like all this great stuff there but what do I do so you have this pretty simple method to make a pan sauce explain I think in that recipe I sear it on one side and then flip it and then put the sauce in the pan cover the pan and then let the pork chop rest in the sauce I think because also I struggle with making sauces, like I think they break pretty often and they splatter and it's just like a lot, it's too much for me.

33:25So I think when you put the sauce in there, it heats from the pan and does kind of concentrate a little bit, but under the heat of this cover of the pan, it's okay. There's no splattering. So I think that's what that recipe is if I'm remembering. Buy the book. You'll find out. A few more questions to be thinking about. We'll have a time for a few audience questions, But Emily, I wanted to ask you about the recipe list. What is the most popular New York Times cooking recipe this year? So our data is not that nuanced in some ways. In other ways, it is incredibly nuanced. But we, you know, we're just looking at like traffic so far.