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Podcast Notes: This Is TASTE - Episode 481: Fall Cookbooks
Episode Overview In this episode of *This Is TASTE*, hosts Aliza Abarbanel and Matt Rodbard interview two notable cookbook authors: Nok Suntaranon of *Kalaya's Southern Thai Kitchen* and Caroline Choe of *Banchan: 60 Korean American Recipes for Delicious, Shareable Sides*. The discussion centers around their culinary journeys, the inspiration behind their cookbooks, and the unique flavors and culture of Southern Thai and Korean American cuisine.
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Key Themes and Discussions
Nok Suntaranon
Kalaya's Southern Thai Kitchen
- Background: Nok is the chef and owner of the acclaimed Thai restaurant Kalaya in Philadelphia. She reinvented her life at 50, transitioning from a flight attendant to a James Beard Award-winning chef.
- Philadelphia's Culinary Scene:
- Nok describes Philadelphia as a community-rich city with great food accessibility.
- She emphasizes the city’s vibrant food scene and the importance of diverse culinary representations.
- Kalaya Restaurant:
- Named after Nok’s mother, the restaurant embodies her family’s cooking traditions and personal history.
- Nok started cooking at age 5, helping her mother at a market, which laid the foundation for her culinary career.
- Southern Thai Cuisine:
- Nok discusses the unique characteristics of Southern Thai cuisine, which is influenced by various cultures including Malay, Chinese, and Indian.
- Emphasizes the use of fresh ingredients and traditional cooking techniques.
- Cookbook Insights:
- Nok's cookbook contains recipes that reflect her personal story and familial heritage.
- She highlights the significance of making curry paste from scratch and introduces readers to the essential flavors of Southern Thai cooking.
Caroline Choe
Banchan: 60 Korean American Recipes
- Concept of Banchan:
- Caroline describes banchan as small side dishes that accompany Korean meals, playing a crucial role in any communal dining experience.
- Her cookbook expands the definition of banchan, incorporating a variety of dishes beyond the traditional staples like kimchi.
- Culinary Perspective:
- The conversation touches on the historical and cultural significance of banchan, including its role in Korean American identity.
- Caroline acknowledges the gatekeeping often surrounding Korean cuisine and advocates for embracing a broader, more inclusive understanding of what constitutes Korean food.
- Innovative Recipes:
- Caroline shares her experiences and challenges in creating the cookbook, including teaching her students about Korean cooking.
- She introduces recipes that blend traditional elements with modern twists, such as kimchi mac and cheese and hot honey crispy tofu.
- Empowerment of Women in Culinary Arts:
- Caroline emphasizes the importance of recognizing and supporting female chefs in the culinary landscape.
- She calls for more attention to be given to women's contributions to Korean and Korean American cuisine.
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Key Takeaways
- Personal Narratives in Cooking: Both Nok and Caroline emphasize the significance of personal history and family traditions in their recipes and culinary practices.
- Culinary Innovation: The evolution of traditional cuisines allows for creativity, enabling chefs to introduce contemporary interpretations while maintaining cultural authenticity.
- Community and Representation: Community plays a fundamental role in both chefs’ works, showcasing the power of food as a shared experience that brings people together.
- Empowerment Through Food: The discussion highlights the need for greater recognition of women in the culinary field, underscoring their pivotal roles in shaping modern food culture.
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Conclusion The episode provides a rich exploration of Southern Thai and Korean American cuisines through the lens of personal stories, cultural heritage, and innovation. Nok Suntaranon and Caroline Choe represent a new generation of chefs who are pushing boundaries while honoring their roots, ultimately enriching the culinary landscape in America.
For more details, listeners are encouraged to check out their respective cookbooks: *Kalaya's Southern Thai Kitchen* and *Banchan: 60 Korean American Recipes*.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:28This episode is brought to you by Resi and American Express. So back in the old days, because I always feed everybody in the neighborhood, I will talk to my neighbors about food, and then when they talk, oh, we love chicken curries, I will go to the market, get the ingredients, and make it for them. So I've been feeding everybody in the neighborhood for like nine years. This is Taste. I'm your host, Matt Rothbard. Today on the show, we are talking fall cookbooks with two terrific authors, Noxon Taranon of Kalaya in Philadelphia. She's the author of Kalaya's Southern Thai Kitchen. I also have a conversation with Caroline Cho, author of Banchan.
1:15These are terrific books from this busy fall season, and I hope you enjoy these conversations.
1:30Nuk Santoranon, welcome to This is Taste. How are you? I am well. How are you? I'm really happy to see you. We're going to talk about Philadelphia. Let's talk about Philadelphia. What's good in your home city right now? Where do you go out when you're not working at Kalaya, your absolutely spectacular restaurant? Okay, what's good in Philadelphia is everything. I can't tell you what makes it good, but mostly I would say people, community that make Philadelphia very different. It's very real. It's a small city in a big city. Philly is quite large, but in each neighborhood is, you know, it's a beautiful community.
2:14And the good thing about Philly is wherever you turn, you find good restaurant, good coffee shop. And that's what makes Philly very special. I wholly agree. It feels very small, you know, like you can get around. But, of course, there's lots of interesting restaurants all over the world there. Yeah. And people are really cool, really fun. So that's what I love about Philly. Shout out to my friend John Nair. I've been going there for years and years and staying in East Pachyank. And I'd like to get, before we get to your book, Kalaya, before we get to your book, Kalaya's Southern Thai Kitchen, I want to hear a little bit about visiting Philadelphia as a tourist.
2:51New York gets hit. D.C. gets hit. there's that city right there in the middle that needs to be visited. Why? I think because, you know, back at the old days, Philly had the reputation of a lot of violence and crime. We still have that reputation, but it's just like another city in America or any city in this world. There's crime. There's some unpleasantness about, you know. But when you talk about what good we have to offer, we have plenty. And we've been overlooked. But I think for the past few years, Philly really tried in food world. We are thriving. And I think we're just getting started. We have a lot of underrepresented chefs.
3:44You know, diversified cuisine is such an amazing place to visit. There's everything for everybody. You know, children can go to Please Touch Museum, Franklin Institute. Adult can go to the Barnes. Philadelphia Art Museum have amazing collection, lots of good galleries, a lot of good restaurants. And, you know, one fabulous Thai chef that's cooking Thai food. And she's writing a cookbook. And she's right here in our studio today. And we're talking about the cookbook, Kalea's Southern Thai Kitchen. And Kalaya is your mom. Yes. I named the restaurant after my mother. And, you know, it's funny. When I found a space, I was thinking, like, what would be the best name?
4:35And it's just like everything is about me, about my mother. And for me, Steve, my husband, told me that why he loved me so much because I'm very self-centered. Everything is about me, me, me, me, me, me. So I said, okay, this time I'm not going to make it about myself. I'll make it about my mother so I can talk about her every day. And it's the love letter that I have for her. It's the memories because I left home at the age of 15. So I never grew up with my family. But I still cherish that feeling, you know, from the age, you know, from when I was young until 15 that I left home. It's a remarkable story.
5:25And I've read a lot of the book and, of course, the recipes as well. But let's talk more about the story. At age five, you start helping your mom out at the market that she was cooking at. You were like lugging bags of, was it like sugar or rice? No, it's shrimp paste. Shrimp paste. You know, when I was young, it's more often, you know, between five to seven, it's more about learning how to give people change, getting the coins from the till and steal some, put some in the pocket, little coins. Hope mom did not see. So, you know, we learned how to, you know, give change to people. We learned how to bag things like they buy eggs.
6:04We can put the eggs in the bag and give it to them. And, you know, that's what I learned. But when she started her curry paste business, that's when we start helping her peeling the garlic, all the ingredients, getting her mise en place ready. Because we prep today and then the next day we have the nanny. She will start pounding the curry paste by hand. That's how my mother started her business. So it starts in a market. It starts in a market. And the curry paste is a foundational element of the cooking there. Yes. And you're growing up in this market, and your mom's—you're working hard. It's hard work.
6:46And eventually, you move on and get a job, right? Yes. And that takes you out of Thailand. What is that job? So I was a flight attendant. I started with Kuwait Airways in 1991. Right after Iraqi invasion was over, I moved to Kuwait. So I live in Middle East. And that's when, you know, I really start cooking Thai food because, you know, we live in the apartment and we all have like, you know, we turn one apartment into our canteen that we all share the kitchen. We cook for each other. These are all the flight attendants? These are the Thai flight attendants. Yeah, yeah. Yes. And you're living in Kuwait.
7:27And a remarkable little nugget of bio is that while you're flying around the world as a flight attendant, you're helping run an Italian restaurant too? That's when I moved back to Thailand. Oh, I see. And I got married to my ex-husband. He is Italian that comes from Adelaide, Australia. We opened a small successful Italian restaurant together. So I was a flight attendant. I helped him run Italian restaurant. And I also have a small jewelry business that I helped my friend. We run it together. So I worked three jobs at the same, you know, at the same time because the restaurant was not doing very well.
8:13And you know how hard it is to make it happen. Nearly impossible. It's nearly impossible. I did not think that I was going to make it. So the other job has helped me, you know, has helped keep the restaurant going. When did you first visit the United States? 1992 with Kuwait Airways. I came to New York. What's that first visit to New York? We're recording this in New York right now. And what's it like when you first land in New York for the first time? Buildings. Why are they so tall? Yes, we stayed. I think now it's Redison, Lexington Avenue. It's just like, and what is the word kosher mean? What is daily?
8:55Why they're everywhere? And why the portions are so big? You know, everything is just like, once I remember I ordered roast beef and it's just like, is it what people eating? The stack of pancakes. Yeah, high stacks of pancakes. High stack of pancakes. Yeah. Yeah, that's the impression when I first landed in New York. I'm going to fast forward and I'm going to move to Philly and you decide that you want to open a restaurant. But you start small. You start at 30 seats. Yes. Let's talk about Kalaya in its earliest days. What style of cooking were you doing? And what was the general vibe like of this restaurant?
9:33Yes. So opening the restaurant is never part of the plan. I was looking for a small kitchen that I could run my catering business because I want some small business that I can close whenever I want and travel. You know, my life goal is very shallow.
9:55I'm happy with my housewife title Even so many people tell me I need to say I'm a homemaker I don't see the difference But I enjoy my housewife title and being a write-off for my husband Text write-off I love that But then I was looking for the restaurant space The catering kitchen space I cannot find anything I like Until I found this restaurant like the one on 9th Street, the first color year. I was loved at first sight, and I signed a check for the first month's rent without thinking. I just told the landlord, this is just, you know, I want to have skin in the game. I want to show him that I really want to do it, but I still have to run it by my husband first.
10:47And I don't know whether this is going to happen, but he can hold on to this check. And, you know, so when Steve come home, I told him I want to do it. He said no, but, you know, long story, short six years now, we here. All right, so let's back up. So you're like, I want to do this 30C catering kitchen. Well, a 30C restaurant that was a catering kitchen to begin with. Your husband says no. Yes. But you're persuasive. What's the market like? Like, are you cooking for Philadelphia catering clients at that time? So back in the old day, because I always feed everybody in the neighborhood. I will talk to my neighbors about food.
11:31And then when they talk, oh, we love chicken curries. I will go to the market, get the ingredients and make it for them. So I've been feeding everybody in the neighborhood for like nine years. Wow. I didn't want to run for mayor. So you're like, next best thing is like a restaurant, you know, a chef. Yes. People start asking for my food and they want me to cater. And I've been doing that just like for fun. And then one day I was looking at last catering is what, 130 people with croquembouche, with a lot of stuff. And I was like, this could get me in trouble. So I told Sip I need to stop. I need to find a real kitchen.
12:13but without thinking that I'm going to open the restaurant. But there is something that there was something that I always think whenever I cook or even, you know, when I'm getting dressed or when I'm having my coffee, I'm always thinking about recipes. And when I thought about my recipes, I was like, if I make it this way, would people like it? And, you know, it's just like that idea just keeps cooking in my head. So if I have, I never thought of restaurant. If I put 15 people at the table, cook the food the way I want to cook, the way we eat at home, would those 15 people will like it? And that's what I had in mind.
13:00Because Steve traveled a lot, my husband, and whenever he's home, I always want him to eat at home and entertain at home. So we always have people coming to eat at our house. Dinner at my house is something that Wharton people want to come in. They want to get invited because they know it's always the best. So I've been making the food my way. Yeah. So you knew you had a tested formula that there was demand. You opened a 30-seat restaurant. And what happens then? Because it seems that there's a rapid succession of events that leads to the Fishtown location, which you have now. So what happens to that 30-seat restaurant?
13:38I think I baptized the whole Philadelphia food scene. Yeah, yeah. Everybody get baptized by nook. They were like, we reborn. Well, you know, I mean, it's no joking needed here. I mean, when you hit with like a Thai restaurant in a community, we've seen it in every market in America. Holy Basil in Los Angeles is doing this right now. Like this restaurant downtown LA is like taking off in the hottest restaurant. There's something about the cuisine of your homeland that when it's good and when it like captures Korean restaurants, it doesn't happen with it. It doesn't happen with sushi. It doesn't happen with Italian restaurants.
14:17What is this? What happened? I think, you know, people love to talk about how spicy Thai food is. And Thai food is not new to American market. But authentic Thai food is very new because this is the time that, you know, back at the old day that people will move from Thailand to America. They need a job. Open a Thai restaurant with a lot of hesitant, you know, with hesitation that nobody going to come to the door. We have to cater to our client palate and all of that. But, you know, that is the old story. Now, who can be more real? And that's the way to success. Just stay true to yourself like how I did it.
15:07And I went all in. I never think about, you know, I never worried about if I have to close the door, if I'm going to go out business. Because at least if I have to close because nobody liked my food, at least I did it. Yeah, at least you made it happen. All right. So when we you said something very, very interesting about how we all know certain tenants of Thai cuisine. Of course, pad thai is the top, but many other dishes. But when you think about food of the South, you're adding heat, you're adding sour and you're adding some elements that maybe is outside. So maybe that's part of the success is when you start cooking with these familiar but not familiar flavors.
15:50What is the food of southern Thailand to you? And how do you delineate it from the rest of the country? So southern part of Thailand are the big melting pot of the culture. We have Malay, Indonesian, Indian, Pakistanis, Chinese. Yeah. Even Portuguese. So southern Thai food, each province are different. So let's talk about where I come from, Trang. And my food is very, very unique and very personal because I cook the way my family cook for me. I cook with my memories, like chicken curries and yellow sticky rice. That's the curry that I had when I was very young and got invited to my uncle's house at his housewarming party.
16:40Nobody ever cooked that chicken curries and sticky rice for me ever since. When I came to New York, I went to school. I went to culinary school, and that's when I started cooking. I formulated whatever I seen and experienced when I was young and started working in my own kitchen, playing with ingredients. And so I would say my food is the memories. It's bright. It's bold. It's real. And it's very exciting. Yeah. Yeah, and what are the, I know there's like, of course, the islands, right? Like Kostumui, Phuket, you think about those islands, and then you've got the peninsula in the south. Is the island cuisine slightly different from the mainland cuisine?
17:25Very, very, very different. And, you know, even me and my neighbors, you know, my mother's half Thai Chinese, and my neighbors, they're Thai. The way they make curries are so different. Wow. Yes. So there's a way that blends the two cultures together. Yes, even nam pric, the shrimp paste relish, the way my mother make it, the way that my neighbor next door make it, also different. Listener, if you can ever find nam pric, nam pric nam, anywhere in this country and find it done in a way that Kalaya does it, there's nothing better. Nam pric is like one of those foods that you never forget it when you have it in the right way.
18:07Yes. I would say, you know, one restaurant that really impressed me about Nang Namprik is Cru in Brooklyn. The Namprik almond is really good. It's really good. Those guys are doing something very, very interesting. And at Kalaya, I tried to, when we opened Kalaya, I told my partners, I want to introduce two things. Lon and Namprik, those are the relish and the side dishes. because, you know, people are focused about curries and stir fry, but they forget about these two dishes that make the meal more complete, make it more complex. And this is why at Kalaya, when I opened the new restaurant, Lon and Nam Prig always part of our menu, and we focus on that.
18:57Yeah. Let's talk about the cookbook, which is inspired by the restaurant, which is now kind of hard to book, it seems. Can you get a table or is it you have to like know somebody? I know someone who knows someone. Okay. Well, you know someone who knows someone who knows someone now that you're listening to the show. Yes. All right. I mean, it's really popular and an amazing restaurant. As I've been told, I've not dined there myself and it's on my list for this fall, but I have good friends who swear by it and love it. So let me ask you first, when you're getting these recipes down in this book, what's that like?
19:31You know, it's your mother's recipes. It's your recipes. What's that like? What's the feeling like just like writing it down like that? It's real. You know, I've never been a good student. I hate writing. I hate documenting. I never document my own recipes. Like, you know, when I create some new recipe in the restaurant, I never look at a cookbook. It's always come up in my head. This is how I want to do it. And I write it down for my team. So what it's like to write a cookbook and put the recipe together? Impossible, probably. It was a lot of fun because normally I'm all over the place. I'm very fast.
20:10I move fast. I'm a little bit of, you know, organized but unorganized. But writing the cookbook with my co-author and my recipe editors, it was something that, you know, I think is the best part of me learning to put my thought together and work as a team. So I will gather the ingredients and then I will, you know, my co-author and the editor once a week. They'll sit at the other side of my island. I have a very big kitchen. And I'm standing in front of them with scale, with lots of measuring cup and all of that. And then the night before we are cooking, I start writing the ingredient list. And then we fill in the blank why I'm cooking.
20:59You actually, I love that method. I can send myself. It's a great method. And the core author is there to capture the dialogue. The recipe editor is there to document the recipes. And I have Mike Prince, my publicist, come in, my restaurant publicist, come in. So let's say, you know, Kalaya is Tega Village. I'm not one woman show. I have Fogglove helping me with my book. I have Mike Prince helping me with the restaurant. I have my co-author. I have my publishers. It's just like this is the team effort to make this happen. And it's a dream that, you know, one woman could, you know, get up and doing something at the age of 50.
21:44I started writing the cookbook when I was 54. Wow. And I don't think it's easy. I never think it's possible. I never thought that I will have a cookbook. But once, you know, I could formulate my thought, I'm standing in front of my team, I know I'm in good hands. I know that I can do it because, you know, I have Francis Lam. I have everybody. I have very strong support. This book is going to be amazing. Yeah, Nak, I love hearing you share the credit for this work. I think it's understated in Cookbooks how it does take a team. So I really appreciate you laying that out. Let's talk about the actual recipes in the book.
22:26I just want to say I paged through it and I dog-eared several, but I'd like to get from you maybe like two recipes that you really think our listeners should like turn to that feel good for you right now. I would love for people to making a curry paste. Yeah. I figured that'd be one. Because curry paste is such a good building block. You know, people get kind of threatened or insecure by how complex the curry paste could be. It's very easy nowadays because, you know, the ingredients are super accessible. And for me, house-made curry paste is so different. You know, like if you pick one recipes, I would say the Kalaya house curry.
23:17and make chicken curry and yellow sticky rice. Or if you don't want to make curry paste, buy a Massaman curry paste from store and make Massaman curry. Yeah. Let me ask you, when you make your curry paste, which is a process, but you can store it, right? Yes. And so I'm pulling that out of my fridge. So like, say I've spent that time on a weekend and made the curry paste and I have it for a couple months worth. how am I using that with like an easy weeknight scenario? Okay, normally when I make my own curry paste, I portion them like half a cup portion. Yeah. And weeknight you can just boil some coconut milk, throw that curry paste in, add a little bit of shrimp paste, and you can add any vegetable.
24:06You can, you know, season it with some palm sugar or brown sugar, soy sauce, fish sauce, add any kind of protein you want. And, you know, the best way, like weeknight, I would say seafood or chicken because it doesn't take long. Yeah, so you cook like some chicken thighs, boneless. You cut them up, maybe marinate and stuff. Yes. Cook that up quickly. You maybe have some bok choy. Maybe have some broccoli. You could put it in a lot of different things. You're hurting my feeling. That's not good. No. Yeah, correct me. But I know people will do it. But correct me because I love this. This is how we do it.
24:35This is me speaking. But, like, let's be like, Matt, maybe not. Do this instead. Matt. Maybe you stir fry the bok choy and eat with chicken curries. Because, you know, curry at home is the real... Okay, this is what makes Southern Thai curry different. So many Southern Thai curries, it's just protein, coconut milk, and curry paste. Or protein, water, and curry paste, and shrimp paste. And then we have salted fish, we have stir fry vegetables, we have vegetables that cook in coconut milk, which everything is in the book, in the cookbook. Yeah. And that's how you create your spread of Southern Thai table.
25:19You don't dump everything and cook all together because this is not soup. No. This is not a soup. This is not a stew. It's the curry. Yeah. And or we have, if you want to put some vegetables in the curry, there's a few recipes that I want you to try. Try the green curry. Yeah. You can put eggplant in there. Yeah. Yeah. Or maybe masaman curry does potato. Exception about one thing that I think, you know, people could modify is chicken curry that they can put potato and onion as well. Yeah. And do the kalaya curry powder and add it in there. That's another curry. Yeah, another recipe in the book of the powder.
26:03Yes, see, I'm giving away the recipe. I mean, you got to buy the book, of course. And, you know, I'm going to defend my honor. When I said bok choy, I would certainly have sautéed it. Just to be clear, I wasn't just going to throw a raw bok choy into a curry. But I digress. All right. One recipe that's away from the stovetop, if it's like roasting. The baked shrimp. Let's go there. Kung gok buon sen. Kung gok buon sen. I love it. And this is like the competition between me and my mother, and she won. were you guys competitive? she said her recipe is better and yeah her recipe was better because she had the evaporated milk it's so easy that you throw everything in the pot you close the lid and five minutes later you have and it's complete because you know you have the glass noodles you have shrimp you have some Chinese celeries you have some prawn in there and you eat it with seafood sauce that you make like two days before and it's in your fridge.
27:07And it's just ready. You have one steamed rice. Yeah, it's so amazing. It's so good. And everything can be done within, like, I would say less than 30 minutes. I love it. Well, definitely, please. Kalaya's Southern Thai Kitchen is the cookbook. Got to pick it up or visit the restaurant, Kalaya. Kalaya. And see Nook there. Stay high. Yeah, Nook will be around. Knock on this. This is Taste. We ask guests about the discerning taste. So to close this interview, here's a little rapid fire, fast and furious. Taste check. Are you ready? I born ready. The best fruit. Durian. Okay. First time on the show I've heard that.
27:42Why do you like durian? I love durian because durian is luxurious. Yeah. And durian is so delicious. It's soft. It's creamy. It's sweet. I love durian. Durian is the king of fruit. And it has an adverse reaction to some people, right? Like there's a smell that maybe everyone's not used to, right? Yes, but if you get the real good durian, they are amazing. Of course. Yeah. I know. It's quality. I agree. The worst vegetable. Oh, God. It's not a vegetable. It's a kind of small potato in the southern part of Thailand that I never like it. It's called mankinu. It's tiny little potato. I eat all kinds of vegetables.
28:26I love vegetables. But this potato just doesn't do it for you. No, no, no. Not that one. Fair enough. The best dessert. Ooh, anything that Yasmin, my neighbor, make for me. Yes, I have next door neighbor and she loves baking and I bake her for a lot of stuff. Pavlovas especially. It's just so good. I love a pavlova. What a nice neighbor and getting the shout out on the show. Yes, we cook together a lot. What's your favorite dessert in the cookbook? In the cookbook, I love panna cotta. Ah, so what's your version of it? Coconut milk. Oh, my goodness. So what do you put on top? Gluten-free. Gluten-free.
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29:03So do you put anything on top of it? Mango or pineapple. You can do with any kind of tropical fruit. Oh, my gosh. Yes. What about a frozen recipe that you might have? I think of like shaved ice and frozen. Yes, but it's not in the cookbook. But shaved ice in the restaurant is a must. It's very ice caching. It's very fun to eat. And it's super yummy. Is there, do you have one of those machines? Yes, I have two. Those machines are the best thing. They're like the snowy ice machines. Yes. And then, you know, you soak it with a lot of yummy syrup. And then you hide something in the middle and you top it with ice.
29:44You soak it again and you put whatever, you know, I want on top because it's my restaurant. It's my recipes. Whatever you want. Whatever I want. All right. So this is a big one. Okay, this is a big one. your favorite Philadelphia restaurant to visit when you are not working. Okay. Can I have three? Absolutely. Yes. 100%. Okay. Fiori, if I want pasta for lunch. Yeah. Royal Isakaya and Omakase because it's around the corner. Machine Shop. Oh, Machine Shop is number three. The best. No, everything is number one, but I cannot. Everything is number one. There's one A, one B, one C. All of them. Yes.
30:21Yeah. All of the above. Visit Philly did not support or sponsor this podcast. This is an absolute off the grip. We should get the sponsorship. Listen, I don't need money to just show my love for Philadelphia. It's such an easy town. I love it. Visit Philly. It's such a great city. I love it. They did so much for us. Yeah. Your favorite cookbook of all time. My cookbook. Fair enough. All right. So if you have your cookbook, the best cookbook, your favorite cookbook of all time, what is the first recipe you're going to cook from? Chicken curry. Really? So chicken curry. What is the curry? Chicken curry is a coconut milk curry.
30:58Coconut milk-based curry. It's thick. It's delicious. It doesn't take long to make. And that's the recipes that I was cooking very often. Yes, it's my go-to recipes. Have you ever run up the stairs from the film Rocky just to do it? I can barely walk. You seem to be walking okay to me. Beautiful women don't run. We glide. We float. Absolutely. What do you think of that film? I think it's very Philly. And I would never run. No up the stairs. All right. A few more. A cuisine you would like to learn more about? I want to learn more about Vietnamese, Japanese, and Korean. Yeah, great. Great choices there.
31:45Lots to learn. Yes, a lot to learn. Very delicate, very versatile. I am intrigued with, you know, Jesse Ito really inspired me. I really want to learn more about Japanese food. It's so clean. It's so elegant. And Vietnamese, it seems like very similar, but it's very different. And Korean always have my heart. Very cool. Yeah. Last one, your favorite sandwich. Can I say burger? I don't eat sandwich. A burger is maybe a sandwich, not a sandwich, kind of a sandwich. Not a sandwich, yes. So burger, again, that me and Yas collaborate because I will fry the bacon. Yas will fry the grass-fed beer steak that we got from farmer's market.
32:33And she will make either focaccia or a brioche bun. Everything is homemade. Focaccia burger. Both choice. I'm into it. Yes. And we grill our burger over the charcoal grill. and the minute it is done, we all sit down together. We just shout out and then we have some pavlova and we have, I mean, the whole neighborhood there for that. It's our block party. I feel like a Kalaya burger concept has just been born. You running a burger restaurant or maybe not just now, maybe like a while ago. You would do it. You would maybe do it. Maybe I find a new calling. Knoxburger. Listen, Goliath burger, Knoxburger, both of those.
33:22I love that. Thank you so much for joining This Is Taste. Thank you. And you have to come for the burger.
33:37Caroline Cho, welcome to This Is Taste. It's so great to see you. So great to see you. How are you? I'm really great. And I mean, I'm excited about Panchan, your book. Thank you. Because, you know, I've written a couple Korean cookbooks with my buddy, Dookie Hong. And a book about Panchan is not easy. And you've really executed and delivered such an amazing book. So congratulations. Thank you. Thank you. It's a labor of love. Well, of course, cookbooks are. But I think everyone should go out and check it out. We'll get more into the book. But first, Caroline, I'd like to ask, where are you dining out in New York right now?
34:13What's good? I was actually thinking about this because so truth, full disclosure, in the last four years since we all went into lockdown, I was kind of I kind of fell off the map with checking out a lot of the new places because a lot of our old places that we loved closed. uh now that we've kind of gotten back into the swing of things um i will say you know uh if i'm gonna venture all the way down into the city from like tippy top of the bronx it's basically like i love love love golden diner um i will travel to chinatown for my happiness down there uh with their honey butter pancakes um i don't think my doctor's listening right now so that's okay but But then like there's my husband and I will split one of their Katsu Club sandwiches.
35:01So great. And they're opening in Midtown soon. I know. So it won't be too far of a trip. But then I go from there to you and me and go hang out with Lucy and the crew over there. But also I love Pave in Midtown. Speaking of Midtown. My buddy, my childhood buddy, actually, Jin Ahn, he's a co-owner over there. And I love that, first of all, love that they're right next to Grand Central. And secondly, that the food, the pastry that they make, and just everything's fresh, delicious. I will probably eat more jambon beurs than I probably should, but it's amazing. And is there – I like – I'm older now, so I don't feel quite as much pressure.
35:45Those are great picks. And I love that you mentioned jambon beurs because, like, underrated sandwich for sure. It's so simple. It's so simple. Yes. All right. Speaking of simplicity or not, panchan. B-A-N-C-H-A-N. Pronounce panchan typically, I would say. Panchan, yeah. What is it to you? What is it to me? It's a really, it's a very broad question. Well, so this is the food that, you know, completes, in my opinion, is very much the completion of a Korean meal or any family meal in general. Um, it's basically when I'm describing it to anybody, it's the small dishes that are on the table, uh, to accompany your main dish or your rice.
36:31And, um, that to me is, you know, in itself, very definitive at the same time, it is very historical, uh, beyond anything, you know, any of us have lived. It goes way, way back. It has its own, you know, it's part of survival, but it's also part of culture. And it's also just, you know, has contents of it being with fermented, fresh and also braised and also just the small dishes that you can share. So I want to zoom out a little bit more once you – great definition. I think it's really clear that if you've gone to Korean restaurants, it's traditionally the small plates that arrive before the meal.
37:15But what you're doing with this book and 60 recipes is you're expanding that universe beyond namo, kimchi, and garam jim, like a bubbling egg. You know, like those are the ones we typically think about with barbecue meals. But for you, you've like gone. There's like chigues. There's tangs. There's like all sorts of cool stuff. How did you think about the recipes when you were going over that initially? So, right. That's the greatest thing is that in this there's a bunch of recipes that are not, you know, considerably, you know, in quotes, I would say, typical pun tun dishes. But it does help answer some of the questions that people had of what is on the table at these restaurants that they go to.
37:59How many times I've been asked, like, what jieges are and what's in it? And, oh, can I make this at home? And the thing is, it's still served as a small dish sometimes. And I had the pleasure of meeting Meng Chi actually this past year. And I got a chance to talk to her. And for those of you who don't know who Meng Chi is, she's like the godmother of like YouTube cooking for Korean food. And even she was saying like for the atypical dishes that, you know, people would classify as bantan. She's like, if you serve it small, it's still considered a small dish and it can be shared with everybody. so um and you know you kind of had the opportunity to answer a bunch of questions that's what i did yeah and that's so i do put like in the intro i make sure that i cover my cover my ass basically and i'm like just letting you know yes i know that this is not considerably panchon uh traditionally but this is how you can serve it and this also can go with your meal i mean i think the key is that you call it Korean American panchan, which is such an important facet.
39:09It's not a like uber traditional backbone style like royal court panchan, though you have some recipes that are that. But you also have like a lot of creativity. What did the Korean American kind of tag early on allow you to do? So that's thanks for asking, actually. So there's so I did a cooking demo where somebody I was my first time on Microsoft Teams. And I did not know that I would be able to see the comments as they came up, because on Zoom, you see them in the box. This time it was just flashed up on the screen and it just said, I know that this isn't really Korean food. And I just went, well, duh, did you read the title?
39:50And the thing is, is that when this book was presented to me to write from Chronicle, and there was a lot of pressure that I felt because I said, you know, I knew the Korean books on the market. I had studied them endlessly. And though there are still, it's growing still, I was like, the Korean American genre of food is still something that's still being gatekept, in my opinion, or even Korean food in general is still kind of, you know, being guarded. In what way do you mean? I think that a lot of people have most of the for many years, I want to say probably just not been maybe satisfied with a lot of what they've seen in introduction to Korean food or how they can prepare it at home.
40:36But that's their, you know, it comes with a lot of, you know, their their pain, so to speak, on the subject. But that's where my encouragement to them is that's why we need more people saying these things and telling their stories about food. This is just my story. This is my Korean American story. And this is how I grew up. I grew up here in New York and, you know, with whatever was available. And my parents actually, when they first came to the States in 1973, they didn't have kimchi as available right now as they do. And their alternative was sauerkraut and hot sauce. So it really is just being resourceful, but also with what you grew up with.
41:18How does it make you feel when somebody while you're providing a demonstration for free says that you're not cooking Korean food to your face, essentially? How does that make you feel? I mean, it's not something I'm not used to at this point, if I'm being frank. It's I'm going to be honest about this. I feel like a lot of people come after me more so than they go after, you know, and not by just me. I mean, a lot of women seem to get a lot of flack from the women I've spoken to that it's not Korean food. And why don't you do this? And why don't you do it this way? And I'm like, well, did you know that pepperoni isn't actually, you know, native to Italy?
42:03And yet here we are eating pepperoni pizza and defining it with pizza, you know, as if it's, you know, pretty much just of origin. And I'm like, you know what? There's, again, people, I think, like to be critical just because it makes them feel special. Yeah. Yeah. Let's leave it there. I mean, I think it's it's it's horse shit. It's utter horse shit for people to tell you that you're not cooking. You're cooking Korean food. It's amazing. I love what you're doing with this book. And many people should pick it up. What are some elements that I think people will be surprised pleasantly by this book who maybe have picked up other Korean cookbooks?
42:41So, again, I think some people are going to be expecting it to be because some of the reaction that I've gotten so far has been that, you know, oh, is this Korean food? I'm like, well, it's Korean American food. I kind of have to reiterate because I was like, your expectation is to see, you know, something that is, you know, is this actually authentically Korean? That word is such a crazy buzzword that I have to start asking people, do you actually know what that means? But this is authentically my family. This is authentically my clients. This is authentically my students who have wanted to learn how to cook with Korean dishes and with what's available essentially in America.
43:24So I think some people might be surprised by, you know, I didn't know I could do this. On a pro side, I didn't know I could make a quiche. Let's get into that. I like that. You're teaching a cooking class and a whole group comes in who've never cooked Korean food, for example. What are you starting with? I'm really curious about what your first introductory would be. So, I mean, I don't typically go into my classes teaching Korean food, although a lot of people, of course, ask, do you? and um that so if i could go back a little further when chronicle came to me with the book idea i kind of had to tell them yeah i can do korean american panchan is that okay with you and they were game they were like okay let's do it so it is a lot of stuff that is traditionally like you were saying uh of my parents um teaching me how to make this these dishes but then it's how to redistribute so if i were to teach a class and i have taught my students with using kimchi um mostly because now again kimchi's become you know almost like gold basically in your kitchen but the first recipe i ever taught to anyone uh through any recipes i published was kimchi mac and cheese and i remember testing this out with um clients but also in uh cooking gatherings and And also when I went to go cater to see how it would go.
44:51And it just emptied like very quickly because people are realizing funky and funky go together. And it's not just cheese with that goes with your, you know, fermented vegetables, but also like how many of us have, you know, dipped like kimbap into batter and fried it the next day to provide it. I love that move. Yeah, and panchang just goes right into the kimbap. And so, again, it's just a lot of people with a lot of questions and interest, which is great. And so that's the more positive side. So for all the haters out there, there's a lot of people who want to learn on the pro side of things.
45:33Let's talk about tenjin chigae. It's my favorite dish, and I want to get your point of view on it. I think it's a cool recipe. What is up with your tenjin chigae? what's up with mine um so truth i didn't know really how to make it until about 15 years ago and uh it was because if i have to choose a tiga my tiga is kimchi tiga yeah you said that you write about in the head note all good all good and twinjang tiga it's just again to take things that you know when you would ask before about you know what surprise will surprise people who pick up the book for the first time, the simplicity of how things are made.
46:10I'm like, it's not going to take 10 years for you to make this. It's literally just throwing a lot of things in here. If you want to, you know, get your little twist on it, saute up your vegetables and then put it in. That's another thing you can do. I'm like, but it really is just simple, classic, very easy to make, and it will educate you and expand your palate. Walk us through that recipe a little bit. I'd love to It doesn't get a sense. Honestly, I was like, you have your dendang, your zucchini, which you just cut into half moons and then just like it doesn't get any easier than that. It's just the water.
46:48And then, you know, you have your tubu and all these other. It's just that. That's it. And the flavor just takes on a life of its own. Agree fully. It's such a good dish. OK, so joram braising. It's a big part of like banchan, right? There's like so many dishes. Talk about how you think about cooking jorams. Torium is one of those things where I'll be honest, if I if I have to choose between the three, I do pick the vegetables. Yeah. But in terms of torium, actually, for my dad, this was more his kind of forte in educating me on how because it's it's salty, it's sweet and spicy of a dish. But it's also homeliness at the same, you know, home.
47:30It's a braise. You think of it like in Europe, in America, braising feels like comforting in a way. Yeah. I think I just misused the word homely, but yeah. I don't. I think we, me, I often misuse that word. It's home oriented. Homely is like a little like. It feels like home. There you go. You fixed it. There you go. Eric Kim, shout out to you. But so honestly, it just, Chorim just gives you that, the scent even, if you smell it from the kitchen, you know what's going on in there. It's just the mix of scallions and soy sauce and some, you know, jamgirum, some sesame oil and just some gochugaru.
48:16It just, it's very simplistic, but I will tell you a quick story. when I was asking my dad for his his totium recipe for fish. And in the book, it's cod. And he kept calling me back. This was the story with my dad and writing this book. He just kept calling and calling and calling. This was like his retirement project almost in a way. And he would say, you know, he's like, did I say to use the cod head? You have to use the cod neck, neck, neck. I'm like, OK, yes, I wrote it in. It's OK. But then for me, I had in my head, I was like, you got to cut it. I was like, I like cutting it up and he doesn't.
48:56So torium is just one of those methods in which it's just, I think, goes back to like maybe the 18th century, if I have it accurately. I think it was availability and also just how to make something so flavorful with minimal ingredients. And dubu jorum is probably my favorite too. Yes. It's just like tofu dubu, you know, braised, sometimes crisps up in the pan. I didn't put beltfish in the book. Sorry, guys. But you can do that, too. It's a good one. Yeah. Asian pear season is upon us. And you write, you know, colorfully about this beautiful product. But I always struggle finding the best ones, H-Mart or wherever it may be.
49:40How do you spot a good Asian pear and what are you doing with it? For me, it's firmness. Yeah, because sometimes you'll get one that has been sitting there for a while, and you can tell by touching it. It has a bit of a softness to it.
49:55If you know, you know, you used to get those big boxes as gifts from people, and they're just packed with, what, 24 pairs, basically. And my mother, who loves, in my opinion, loves my husband more than me, will give him like 10 to take home. And, you know, there's an interesting contrast between, you know, the Asian pears that you get from the Korean markets and then there's the ones that you'll pick like in orchards in the States. that was my hugest like exposure to how asian pairs were grown in the states because they're about the size of a tennis ball i would say and they were much greener in hue and also just um it didn't look like the golden pair that you get from the market basically but they're smaller and sweeter in their smaller yeah i mean again small sweet things come in small packages yeah but it's In the end, it's one of those things where I'm like, just feel the firmness.
50:58Do you know how it tastes until you open it? I'm sure, to be honest, not really. But that's because we had so many freaking softball sized pears. That was where that recipe came in for Asian scallion kimchi, Asian pear scallion kimchi. And it goes it was a sweet contrast, again, sweet contrast with a sour contrast and a spicy contrast. us let's talk about creamy kimchi bacon dip it like really speaks to me and i agree that kimchi and bacon are like bedfellows it's like the great we had a bokumbap that we put with bacon as well and like i i love that you're doing it in dip form yeah can't wait to cook this yeah tell us about it um so this is actually the cold version um when it was first developed it was a hot version and I personally like because what people again how people get educated on using kimchi or something that they're not as familiar with I got a question about once about they tried to make kimchi mac and cheese and they said but my my milk self separate my cheese separated from oh yeah the kimchi and I said that's gonna happen and they said why so for me when I'm making using dairy and kimchi together, I always saute at first to get out the excess juices and kind of concentrate the flavors.
52:18And then I wanted to basically kind of make like a play on ranch, I guess, like American ranch dip. And so then I, you know, put that together into that and served warm. It was actually fantastic. But then there's leftovers and then it's just kind of like so to serve it cold as a thinner kind of dip that you can serve at parties yeah that that's how that came about and bacon for god's sakes it's just i'm actually not i admit i'm not the hugest bacon person yeah but i do love the smell do love the taste um i like it a certain way um but in this dip it kind of just if you let it sit for just a few hours to settle and marry with each other, the taste was just like, I put it in the leftovers of my salad.
53:09It was that good. It's a great point about how going from hot to cold with kind of this marriage of flavors. Hot can be extremely good, like right out of the pan. But then let it marry, let it mingle. You can talk about kimchi chigae too. Yeah. Like if you have any leftover, that next day is pretty great. Yeah. Reconstrued a little bit of stock or water. Yeah, it kind of just takes on, again, it's just like, people learning how to you know have it with you know your rice at the end of the day or just the next day even and it's like what can i do with this i'm like it i hope that people learn from this book that the rules are not i mean there is a way to honor korean food and foods of the origins that you love and uh you own but at the same time i grew up here this is how we ate our leftovers in our food.
54:02So I'm really into you featuring miso soup in a Korean cookbook because I think you recognize something that I've not read in any Korean cookbook, that miso soup, while clearly Japanese, falls in the Korean food world in a special place. And I like to get a sense of why include miso soup in a Korean cookbook and why does it work so well and why do you love it. So it's my dad makes, in my opinion, the best miso soup in my life. And we grew up having it in my house. So again, it's the story of my family, what we ate in my house. And, you know, my mother and my father are both post-occupation children.
54:48There is a lot of influence of the Japanese colonization still in a decent amount of Korean food. But also it's, you know, I don't want to say ownership, but I will say this is just a recipe that just did well in the people that I served it to. So it's tomato, potato, miso soup. It's very cool. Talk it through. And it honestly is just, it gives a warm hug of a feeling. That's basically what my dad's soup is, miso soup. you can make you know your dungan tige with the other fermentation of soybean paste that's another variation you can do but miso paste is pretty readily available in my parents house in my house my father we're still trying to for a retirement trip we're trying him to actually go to japan so that he said all he wants to do is eat yeah i was like i'll do it with you you know so again it's the enjoyment now of having it um in my household yeah i like splitting the difference between tenjun and miso and negotiating it and like delicately and artfully swapping them in for each other but also recognizing occupation words like that how japan and korea have a really tumultuous relationship to say the least and the fact that you can openly write about it and create recipes without it being, I would say, without it being, like, without overshadowing the actual culinary properties is very tricky.
56:23And you've done a great job there. I mean, there might be folks who still have a lot to say about it, but there are chefs out there who are Korean who also feel me on this, that I grew up with grandparents who made Japanese food for them growing up. And it's, you know, we're enjoying each other's food now in present day. But is, you know, do you forgive and forget? For a lot of folks, it's not for me to say. It's just this is where I'm at and this is how, you know, I'm going to try to try to create my story from this. Yeah, really, really great point. And also just add, you know, if you go out in the world, a lot of Japanese restaurants, sushi bars are owned by Koreans.
57:07Right. throughout the country in many parts of the country. And so there's definitely that link. Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of, again, you would have to ask them why. Yeah. Yeah. And so that's their why. And I can't speak for them, but I will say that's come up and it was a question of why to include the soup. But there's a mushroom miso soup variation also. And again, this is just from my house and my kitchen. No, it's very honest, and I really appreciate it. Yeah, I will. But to add to that point, Von Diaz actually had said this while people had asked her all the time when she wrote Coconuts and Collards.
57:45Great book, by the way. Yeah. You know, is your food, you know, consider Puerto Rican? And she said, it's from my kitchen, and I made it, so yes, it is. Yeah. And I said, right on. Yeah. Yeah. Caroline, it's Korean-American, food from your kitchen. Yes. One more recipe I want to go over and then we'll zoom out a bit to close. Hot honey crispy tofu. Bravo. Like I've never thought about that combination. I've never seen it. It works seemingly really well. I've not made it. But what a cool dish. It was. I mean, I can't take entire credit for it. I'm sure there's restaurants out there that have, you know, done.
58:26You know, they're trying to do the hot honey, you know, vegan hot honey. And that was I needed and a bravo also to Joanne Molinaro, who is also kind of pushing forward the whole vegan food doesn't have to be a certain way and Korean dishes that are traditionally a certain way. You know, she's veganizing everything. For me, it was also I had vegan clients and vegan students and they wanted to know more about cooking tofu. And this was my way of kind of develop my development of the recipe of just making a vegan hot honey tofu. I tested it on all my vegetarian and vegan friends and was just it is, you know, it's not too unfamiliar to Korean food, except for, of course, like the ingredients like agave nectar is in there.
59:15But I mean, it tested really well. They loved it. and in truth, like hot honey chicken in general. And I was like, I prefer, you know, not to have the hot honey sauce. And I know I'm a heathen for saying it. Now I'm with you. But yeah, it's hot honey tofu. I was like, this was, it was something that was really favored by those who wanted to try it. And it was, you know, firm tofu and frying it and then putting, you know, the sauce on it. And, you know, kotsukaru is awesome. I personally. Yeah. Well, while I think hot honey chicken might be overrated, I think putting in a doobu joram is incredible.
59:56And it really for a plant based Maine, having it there, I think the sweetness and the spice really lends to an American audience. Yeah. Having it with your I got to tell you, having it with your rice and the rest of your panchan on the table, it does make things quite tasty. So your book is panchan, but I think over the course of this chat, it's obvious that there's very much a main dish focus in some of these recipes, main dish energy, so to speak. I mean, so that was a discussion. So to clarify, there was an actual page that is not included in the final product of the book because the questions had come up of, you know, how can we teach people how to redistribute panchan into main dishes?
1:00:44or redistribute it in general. And I had this whole page written out about putting it in hot dogs and putting it on hot dogs, putting it on pizza, which there is a pizza recipe in the book. How to include it in your everyday eating. And though it wasn't intentional, it ended up kind of becoming, like kimbap in general is not, in general is not considered a panchan dish, but panchan is in it. Bibimbap, what is it defined as? Pantan is in PV. It's all the leftovers you had from the day before. So this kind of fell into that category, but also with Korean American food. And so, you know, it was just these this is not a lie.
1:01:28This is how, you know, I've had to redistribute my pantan in my house. And so that's I'm hoping it'll encourage people. Well, it's not completely hopeless if you have all this leftover. Definitely not. It's a new dish. And I followed that thread just picking up the book and reading it. So I want to zoom out to close. Where do you see Korean food moving over the next five years in New York City, specifically a city that you've lived your whole life? I'd love to get your sense, have thoughts as well. So I had to ask my parents that actually first because appreciate you asking them in the in the well, in the many discussions we have where we disagree.
1:02:06This is the one thing that we can talk about without arguing. So it's I will say for them, it's a wonder that it's come as far as it has to see kimchi available in Whole Foods and also just, you know, and shout out to all the people who have made that happen. And but also, I think personally in five years, because you see where it's come now and the power that it's kind of encompassing and almost building up this potential energy. My advice to everybody, start paying attention to the women, because the women are the ones who taught them how to cook. The women are the people who gave the recipes to their sons who went on to prosper and in this industry that's growing so wonderfully.
1:02:55But also women are amazing at their ideas getting executed and how to best do that. And I hope if people pay attention more to chefs like Esther Choi, Rachel Young, to Beverly Kim in Chicago. Eunjoo Park. Yes. I was like, my girl. I'm just saying like the ladies are leading the way and no one seems to be giving them the half the love and attention that the men are getting. No offense to my bros. You're you're doing your thing as well and you're pushing it forward. But in five years, if we just did that and paid more attention to what us women are doing and trying to say and a lot of this is still rooted in misogyny in our culture.
1:03:43It's just unfortunately the case. But pay attention to what they're doing because they are going to push the envelope forward. I really, really, really appreciate that. It's an incredible statement. And you're right. And I fully believe that the future starts with a female chef core in Korean-American food. And I think of Jihae Kim from Ann Arbor, from Miss Kim. Yes. Just one of the most talented chefs in America at large. We're out there. We're out there doing it. I think just, again, Lulu Wang, the filmmaker, had said it. She goes, women don't, they just need the job. She's like, women just need the job.
1:04:24And it's not just looking to us for our ideas. It's looking for us to do the job and give us the money, too, for that job. Caroline, and this is Tase. We asked guests about their discerning taste. So to close this interview, here's a little rapid fire, fast and furious taste check. Are you ready? I am. The best fruit. Apples and pears. I can't choose just one. You can't choose? Okay. So if you were to blend apples and pears, what are you doing? I will have a ginger gold apple. It kind of has a pear-y aftertaste. Love that. Yeah. Or a mutsu. The worst vegetable. I really hate fennel. I hate fennel.
1:05:04I'm sorry. I apologize. But I'm not a licorice kind of girl. No, my wife Tamar agrees with you fully. It's her arch enemy. Anyway. The best dessert? Il Flottant. For those who don't know what Il Flottant is, it is a creme anglaise with floating meringues in there with praline on top. I love it. I will have it wherever it's served. But if it's not there, then can't go wrong with cake and ice cream. You cannot. Your favorite American fast food chain? Shake Shack. And how they treat their workers is great. Your favorite Korean restaurant, full stop? I can't tell you that. No? You can't go there? Well, I don't want everyone going there.
1:05:46A favorite. Oh, you got it. I'll tell you this. I'll go here. Does it have to? If it's not specifically Korean, but there's a restaurant in Honolulu, which was next to my Airbnb, Diamond Head Grill. They serve kalvi that tastes exactly like my dad's. Oh, cool. And that, to me, was—I was many, many miles from home, and that is exactly what I—that made it my favorite. Diamond Head Grill Colby, oh my God, on the beach. I mean, it was like, you can bring it to the beach, but to me, it was perfect. A Korean restaurant you wish existed in New York. Supultip from LA because of the, you know, we started phasing out a lot of the charcoal usage.
1:06:29Yeah, that restaurant was, the meat was amazing. They were amazing to us. I kind of wish that was here. Yeah. I think like whole fire barbecue is hard to find. I wish there was more of it. Yeah, for sure. Your favorite cookbook of all time. I have. Can I name three? Sure. That's fine. OK. Little Paris Kitchen by Rachel Kuh. And what was it? Pretend Soup by Molly Katzen. I used it in my classroom a lot. Yeah. And that was. I love a good illustrated cookbook. That's it. But my all time favorite was my first cookbook that I was ever given when I was seven years years old by my friend Liz. And it was kids cooking a very messy manual.
1:07:10And it was written by Klutz Press. You cannot get it anywhere now. It's out of print. But that was it came with tablespoons. And I. Oh, so cute. It was my all time favorite cookbook. A favorite recent cookbook discovery. All the Asian American ones. Seriously, we they're killing it. They everybody who has written one uh tooky shout out to you too um but i will say the ones that i can say that it's been really wonderful to see everything everyone's been cranking out and i'm hoping that it just continues to change the game you're here to that i love your sentiment your favorite city outside america to visit for food i'm still i still have to conquer asia but um barcelona rome paris oh Oh, great selection.
1:07:56Love that. Last one, your favorite sandwich. Thanksgiving leftovers. Something to look forward to every year. Oh, my gosh. Okay, so let's take us through it. We're approaching the Thanksgiving season. My favorite. How do you do it? So my family is not big on turkey, but how I make it, they'll eat it. I brine the turkey in a lot of great things, but bourbon is also in there. Yeah, good. And so then basically it tenderizes. But then when it roasts, I break it up like you would pulled pork, basically. And I also let it sit in its juices for a day. And then you just warm it up the next day. It's nice and juicy.
1:08:37So after the meal is up and I have whatever is left over that's been bagged by my cousin Elaine, I just it's turkey. It warmed up in gravy. You put that in the microwave so it's nice and saturated. and I put some kimchi mac and cheese on there or a five kimchi mashed potatoes whichever my family wanted that year and then regular mac and cheese on it and then just it has to be on either something sturdy like a Kaiser roll or these awesome ciabatta rolls that are over at Zabar's and that to me is perfect I'm not the biggest on cranberry sauce but if we do have a little I'll throw that in there. Oh, my God.
1:09:21I'm like thinking kimchi, mac and cheese for this Thanksgiving holiday. Go for it. Yes. From your book, Panchan. And put as much as you want in it, by the way. There's a small amount in the recipe, but put as much as you want. I mean, obviously you put more. Yes, I put more. I put more. You put more garlic. You put more kimchi in your recipes. This was beginner friendly. Who's putting one clove of garlic in anything? Stop. Yeah, exactly. Whoever you are, your ears are burning. Your ears are burning. Caroline Cho, thank you so much for joining This Is Taste. Yes. Thank you for having me.
1:09:54This is Taste is hosted by Eliza Abarbanel and me, Matt Rodbar. The show is produced by Shalia Harris and Pat Stango and edited by Clayton Gumbert. Theme music by Steve Rydell. Visit Taste online at tastecooking.com and make sure to subscribe to our newsletter for updates on all cool things that are happening.
From the publisher
Today on the show, we speak with two authors of terrific new cookbooks. First up is Nok Suntaranon, the chef and owner of Kalaya, a celebrated Thai restaurant in Philadelphia. A former flight attendant, Nok reinvented herself at age fifty to become a James Beard Award–winning chef, and we talk about her journey as well as her excellent new cookbook, Kalaya's Southern Thai Kitchen.
Also in this episode, we have a great talk with Caroline Choe. She is a recipe developer and the author of Banchan: 60 Korean American Recipes for Delicious, Shareable Sides. We love this book, and we get into how the Korean small plate staple can open up so many Korean cooking adventures in the home kitchen.
Do you enjoy This Is TASTE? Drop us a review on Apple, or star us on Spotify. We’d love to hear from you.
MORE FROM NOK SUNTARANON & CAROLINE CHOE:
Esquire gives Philly's Kalaya Top Spot [Philly Voice]
It Takes a Village to Teach Someone to Cook With Love [Simply Recipes]
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