482: Sue S. Chan & PJ Vogt

25:19They do entertainment so well. Right. Because I think a big reason why they have been so successful with their expansion is because they offer an experience. I mean, the food that they're offering is like pretty basic and simple. It's like white sauce, Italian joint. You can find that in other places. Rich might disagree, but still, I agree with you. Yeah, there's they're not reinventing too much there in the culinary side. No, you feel so special. And the kind of cachet that they've like built around that brand makes you makes it so much more desirable to go. Right. And or like the Nines, that piano bar, I think places like that, that offer entertainment on top of the food.

25:58People want an experience because they want to be able to, you know, tell their friends or tell their coworkers or just have a fun night out that they can't normally get in their everyday life. Because, you know, even for your lunch at a fast casual joint, you can get really amazing food. So what do you want when you go out on a Friday night? You want something more than that. And I think also as third places or community centers, as churches kind of fall by the wayside and don't really exist in our culture anymore. I think restaurants become that third place and that become that place where you gather with your community, bump into your community, see people out and about.

26:42I mean, even bars and clubs don't really exist anymore like they used to. You know, clubs can't really survive in New York City anymore because it's too expensive unless you run a bottle service, kind of a club. And, yeah, so I think people are searching for experience and they're searching for community when they go out and dine these days. So, Sue, what's your ideal vibes in a restaurant or a dining space in one of these third spaces that we – I mean, a big reason why I love Odeon is one – I love that it's been around for like 30-plus years. And just the history. Heritage. that those walls have seen, like if those walls could talk.

27:18Someone needs to make that documentary telling all the old stories. How many Belushi moments were in that place? Oh my goodness. SNL wrap parties in there, many of them. And also the reason why I love Odeon is because it's so quintessential to New York. It could only exist in New York. Contramar in Mexico City is like one of those restaurants too where it could only exist in Mexico City. Rochelle Canteen, River Cafe in London, those are restaurants that could only exist in that place. And their rich history just makes it, I don't know. As you know, it's so hard running a successful restaurant.

27:48And so if you survive five years, that's like a major plus. But if you survive like 30 plus, like my goodness. But the big reason why I love Odeon is because when you go there, you will bump into someone you know. And that's what's so beautiful and amazing about New York City. And what I really miss now that I live in L.A. is that spontaneity that can happen in a restaurant, you know. you can bump into someone and it feels like oh i belong to a community and this is my city so you consult with restaurants and brands and and so let's talk about more of the new new guns the young bucks and they're just opening and they want a sujan vibes starter kit how we how are we setting the vibes outside of this heritage because i think heritage is something that i fully agree with super important for restaurants and like i think of places like neva's a navigation in houston i just went to it's like that can't exist anywhere else it's like a vibe it's old school but many of the restaurants we love are new there's got to be a way to set this vibe is there a way that you can articulate this not an easy question i realize yeah like how do you set a vibe um i think uh focus on consistent consistency with your menu um get it instead of trying to do too much um you know i think make a simpler menu and get it and make it well so that every time someone comes in, it's consistently delicious.

29:10And I think focus on growing your business around your regulars. So making people feel special, especially the people who live in the neighborhood. Because during COVID, what we witnessed is that the restaurants that survived fell into one of two categories. One was they either had a huge financial backer, right, so money would never run out, or they had a really loyal community fan base. And I think that no matter what, and that's what Keith McDowell does very well is front of house, right? And service and focusing on his regulars make him feel super special. Regulars, Mirandi, or you're in Odeon, you're cycling through a mall.

29:49So no matter what happens with the trends, no matter what's hot, cold, whatever, no matter if there's COVID and the entire city shuts down, If you have a really solid regular set of customers who are regulars, you will survive. So I think just focus on that and then the rest will come. Yeah, we had Ben Leventhal in talking about Blackbird's new company. And that's kind of the premise of that entire company. It's an interesting idea that you really want to treat double down, triple down on your regulars. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. So let me ask you, is there a Suchan brick and mortar in the works?

30:26Would you do it knowing what you know? Would you I mean, everyone dreams of having their own restaurant in some way. I mean, this is a real fantasy. It's a real like idealized world. But I mean, would you do it? That's so funny because because I'm so in the biz. I have the two reasons why people reach out is one, they want to open up a restaurant or two, they want to become food media talent. And I'm always like, no, don't do it. I wish people came to me and were like, I want to become a food scientist and help solve world hunger or help with the sustainability issue around food, which that those industries, regenerative agriculture, sustainability and food technology.

31:05I think that those are the industries where we're going to see the most innovation in the coming years. So I urge people to get into that instead of becoming another food. Yeah, it's not as like, it's not going to get you clout with a K, but it's going to definitely like save our planet and also make a living doing that stuff. Yeah, and you could actually, I mean, speaking of being influential, like you could influence a lot if you dedicate your life to that. And that's, you know, real influence. But, sorry, what was the question? Would you open a Fu Chan-owned restaurant, wine bar, bottle shop, ice cream shop?

31:44I would open up an event space now that I'm in the events business. I love events and I love bringing people together. It's really just an excuse to have a place where I can just bring a lot of people. Yeah, events, but maybe, you know, have like a menu once a week. Yeah, exactly, exactly. That's the only brick and mortar that I would do. And then I will admit it is my fantasy, maybe when I retire, to have, you know, Cookbook in L.A. Yeah, Eastside, I do. Oh, my goodness. Great spot. I'm obsessed with that spot. But just like a cute little grocery store would be a fantasy of mine. So let me ask you about Care of Chan events.

32:19And you focus on it. And I'd love to get in some stories. I mean, I follow you on Graham. It's like a good one. And you always are. You're in unique cities. You're working with cool brands. And I'm sure behind the scenes that shit is not easy. Give me some stories from the trenches of food event production. Yeah. I mean, I feel like, well, one, event production is so different than food event production. Oh, right. Sure. And I oftentimes see a lot of event producers who do large scale fashion events or large scale concerts or whatever struggle when it comes to food. And so we've definitely been called in like the called in an 11th hour to like help save the day to be like, can you help figure out this night market that we need to like make happen?

33:07We hired Leila Gohar. She made a couch made with bread, but that's all we have. Su Chan, do the rest. Yeah, exactly. But yeah, I mean, I won't name any names, but I think the two most dramatic moments were one time I had to lock in like a pretty major talent for the show, for this event that we were doing. was a musical talent and um because of some bad team members brought into the mix we almost lost that talent and i had to like literally get a friend to who was about to have dinner with the lead singer of that band um to like put in a good word for me at the dinner but it was like perfect timing that like she was about to have dinner with them and then another time oh my goodness the chef wanted to pull out of this huge event that was happening with like a major brand in Vegas.

34:05And I actually ended up simmering my ties with the chef, unfortunately. But she canceled last minute. The brand was not very happy. I don't know if I'll ever work with that brand ever again. But yeah. You do your best. We did not save that one, but I did my best. Why did the chef pull out? You know. Money? No, it wasn't that. It was a very well-paying gig with a major brand. Yeah, it's like quite conceptual. It was a Vegas event. Everything was going to be set up for them. You know, who knows? Who knows? Yeah, that's actually a fool's errand to like try to get this at the head of a well-paid talent bailing at the last minute.

34:40Who knows? Wow. But still great fodder for this documentary. Yes. Yes. So what's good in L.A.? Let's pivot to your new town. Is horses really closing? Shout out to Chris Black. Going to be on the show soon. He just tweeted that. I don't think it's closing. He also tweeted that B.A. was going to shut down. I recall that as well. No, I do not think horses, because I also checked with my sources, and that is not true. Is it a good restaurant? You know what? I have not been since the news broke, but the staff is incredible. The front of house staff is incredible. And I really loved it. I mean, I, it was exciting because, so LA versus New York, of course, everyone loves to talk about that battle.

35:33LA has really incredible food, maybe one of the best food cities, as is London. Incredible breadth of what's available, all different types of cuisines at all different types of levels. Very exciting. I think maybe even better than New York, honestly. But what New York excels at is restaurant restaurants. So like restaurants with a big R. Yeah. Like they're very good at vibe, speaking of vibe. L.A., not so much vibe. Like most of the good food that you enjoy are in, you know, mom and pop, really casual settings. SGV or Eastside. Exactly, exactly. Or you have the fancy sceny joints, which, you know, have a vibe if you're into that Hollywood vibe.

36:20But the food is shitty. Right. And there are very few. Obviously, there are like there's Bestia. There's the, you know, they exist. Yeah. Felix. Republic. Yeah, exactly. They definitely exist. But on like the level that of New York restaurants, not so much. It's not as sexy. That's why it's such an intriguing spot for food writers from not L.A. because it doesn't like look like most other cities, the restaurant scene, the stuff that's actually like good and written about. It's very different. I mean, even places like Houston, which I just went to, is a little more centralized, to be honest. It's not as sprawly as you think.

36:58But L.A. is fucking sprawly. and you're going to find places, you know, in Hollywood, there'll be like a buzzy spot that has a great new chef. And of course, head to the west side. And then what Evan Funke, let's start there. What the hell is going on? That must be great. Like I feel, I loved Mother Wolf, but his new spot, the tasting menu only. Sorry, I just hijacked your pick. No, no, no, it's okay. But offering picks. He definitely with Mother Wolf, I think hit on this, like where the food is, you know, relatively delicious and there's a scene that didn't really exist in LA. and Horses was one of the few restaurants that did that and did that very well.

37:34But yeah, it's very unfortunate that that news happened. I have not been back since. So a few other Spazinelli that you like just to give us a sense. Oh God, I mean on that same vein of Horses, Musso and Frank's is still such a go-to. I mean obviously that's been around for like 100 years and it's not new, but I love that. I'm really excited for the Baru restaurant. they just reopened, which is in a much bigger space. So I'm excited to try that out. Perilla is really amazing, too. It's like a bon chon spot. But again, this is like a super casual spot where you just like go for lunch. Yeah, great call there.

38:11I appreciate it. I feel like LA is always changing over every 18 months. There's like 10 new places and you gotta go. Sue, on This Is Taste, we ask guests about their discerning taste. So to close this interview, here's our little rapid fire, fast and furious taste check. Are you ready? Yes. I love it. You know what? Oh, gosh. I'm like so the person who's like, wait, but like what mood are you in? I love it. All the caveats. So I will do my best. Do your best. You can have a few caveats. It's allowed. The best and pastry with coffee. So I live super close to Cookbook and also Canyon Coffee and Sasha Pilgrim, who does all the pastries at Canyon Coffee.

38:49I love all her stuff. She has this coconut carrot cake that's just. Oh, man. I tried to go to Canyon. I circled like six times. It's such a scene. I couldn't park. I was like, you can't park and there's a long line. I tried parking. Like I went up like six hills and I couldn't go there. But friends and I joke about how you don't need to go out. You just can go to Club Canyon. It really is. On like a Saturday. Yeah. Walk the reservoir and go to Canyon. But yeah. Best dessert period. Oh, gosh. My friend Claire Patak of Violet in London. She has this coconut pudding cake. It's so bonkers. And I was also just in Toronto, Maddie Matheson's restaurant, Prime Seafood Palace, has this, it's essentially like a maple butter pie with like a gigantic slab of brie cheese on it.

39:38That was insane. Yeah, that was. Brie making it to the final course. Oh my goodness, yes. I love that call. It brings me back to like the 1990s. It was so good. I mean, I think I now have gout because of my dessert, but it was incredible. The best bread. um the best bread uh josie baker from the mill in san francisco she has this adventure bread it's so good um i'm not gluten free but it's gluten free it's just super nutty it feels like the healthiest and most delicious just the baker's dope it's a great call the best music to have in your restaurant dining room it could be a band it could be a genre jazz yeah i'm like pausing because I say yeah, but then jazz can go haywire.

40:19Of course. I mean, not like... You've been in all those spots where... Right, right, right, right. Not like smooth jazz, but more... Yeah. I love it. It just feels like... I know that sounds so... That makes me either sound really old and boring or... But I guess in my head, I mean, there's lots of really incredible new jazz performers too, but, you know, cool jazz. Yeah, no, the West Coast cool jazz. Let's go there. Okay, so your favorite chef to hang out with? Of all time ever. Yeah. Gosh, I've been lucky in being able to hang out with a lot of really incredible chefs. There was this one time during the MADS symposium every year.

41:01I don't know if they still do this, but when I went this one year, Renee always would take all the chef participants or all the speakers on like an outing the day before the symposium started. And this one year we went to this island off the coast of Copenhagen and had this just like really incredible meal with all the chefs. And that was definitely by far like the best hang with chefs. But of those chefs and they were there that are the most fun, the Franks. I've not hung out with them in a while, but they are a really good hang. Oh, my God. Yeah. I mean, they have the best stories, like the craziest best stories.

41:38and Frank Fazzinelli, he worked at Moomba, which I don't know if you know this restaurant, but everyone should look it up. Talk about a restaurant in this like crazy era of when restaurants were kind of like clubs. Kind of like the Quilted Drivraff era and all that. But Moomba was like a club and, you know. Butter comes to mind. Alex Bernicelli at Butter. Yeah. Back in the day with good food, but more going on. Yeah, exactly. Like Madonna was like smoking inside at Moomba when Ruth Reichel was there reviewing it. But yeah, but he has the craziest stories. So I will say. Yeah, Frank, we got to, it makes, I think the best slice in Brooklyn, F &F.

42:15I gotta say, that's a damn good slice. Okay, your favorite chef to learn from? It feels probably cliche and cheesy to say, but Dave Chang still through and through. I mean, I really admire what he's built. And I think he has a lot of really incredible insights into the industry and lots of all things. Yeah, his podcast is great. Him and Chris do a good job on that one. your favorite cookbook of all time the river cafe 50th anniversary cookbook it's just so beautiful and they have um i don't know if you know the history of the restaurant but a lot of artists were regulars and involved in the project um and a lot of them made really like incredible menus and so um the cookbook has a lot of those photos just the full photos of the menus and shot well i love that i wish ruth would do a menu cookbook she's collected so many and just the menu as an artifact is such an interesting thing and so cool.

43:07I completely agree, yeah. Alice Waters has one, which that cookbook I also own, too, where it's just pages and pages of all of the menus from her restaurant. A recent cookbook discovery, a favorite. A friend gifted me, like, an early edition from, like, the 1960s, James Beard Menus for Entertaining, which is just so hilarious to flip through just because some of the menu items are, like, so archaic from, like, literally another era. But it's actually like full recipes for like full menus. It's like thinking about James Beard hosting parties and the menus that he wrote. Yeah. Especially in that old house of his.

43:48Oh, my goodness. Amazing. That's a TV show. Yes. Let's get James Beard. Wow. That would be a good one. Yeah. Oh, like remaking all those parties. Yeah. Like that era. Or just about him. Yeah, man. Oh, my goodness. Yes. Amazing. Let's do it, Matt. Yeah, we're just like kicking around Hollywood ideas. We're just doing a little, we're doing a general right now. You're so LA, I love it. Couple more, favorite vegetable? Anything from Natura, like hands down, best produce. Also, Wiser Farms in LA. Are they clients? They're not. Okay, shop good. We've worked with Natura in the past, but they're not like - I'm kidding, it doesn't matter.

44:24I'm not on their payroll. It doesn't matter. But you know what, in my defense, we only work with people whose products we actually enjoy and like genuinely and never take on a client unless we believe in it. Same at Taste. We have clients. We've done client work. We only we love our clients. We love we we only we only work with people we love. Isn't that true, Sue?

44:45All right. Your last one, your favorite sandwich. I'm not a huge sandwich person, but again, Cookbook, I am such a creature of habit, but cookbook has incredible sandwiches because they're all made on bub and grandma's focaccia but there's this salsa salsa matcha roasted carrot sandwich oh my god vegetarian it's so good it's got like hummus and cucumbers and i mean it's just really amazing ingredients which is why it's so delicious but yeah i love that oh my god i mean cookbook sandwiches is the second time it's come up in on the show just like specifically no way who else back uh milstein okay she had one she one from from fish wife she was i i mean when i am in new york the closest that comes to cookbook is the dimes deli part but there's just not i just want a grocery store that's exactly like i feel court street grocer in brooklyn okay there's a version of it but it's very different it's not west coast it has doesn't really have like a fresh market as much right but it's gonna check that out yeah i just i guess it's very californian it is so great suchan thank you so much for joining thank you that was so fun

45:58P.J. Vogt, welcome to This Is Taste. Thank you for having me. I wanted to have you in. Your voice is very recognizable to many of our listeners. You've done many podcasts. You've worked at companies. We will get into the business later on. This is not a media. This is not Peter Kafka talking about media, but we will get to that at some point. But I want to just start by what's good in New York right now, restaurant-wise? What are you liking? Oh, so I live in Red Hook, Brooklyn, where we were blessed not too long ago with Cafe Spaghetti, which I really love. Yeah, yeah. It's like the best restaurant with the silliest name.

46:32And then they opened another restaurant, Swoony's. And I kind of just go between those two as the restaurant that I am most excited to be at in Brooklyn right now. They're also very, very close. But they're wonderful. They're like, I don't know. Cafe Spaghetti is just like really, really good pasta. and it feels, it's like a nicer higher end place, but it doesn't feel scary or pretentious. It feels like a neighborhood spot. I love that articulation because it definitely, a lot of places are scary and pretentious. Yes. And I'm, I don't know. It's hard for me to enjoy myself at like the highest end.

47:07I feel too aware that I might be enjoying things wrong to enjoy them freely sometimes. And like Cafe Spaghetti is not a place like that. No, definitely agree. Now, what's the Reddick Tavern Burger check right now? Give us a checkpoint. I think the burger's quite good. Red Hook Tavern is like, I say I'm in Red Hook. I'm technically in Columbia Street Waterfront, which is a neighborhood that no one doesn't exist. It's like a comma of a neighborhood. For Robert Red Hook, I really like Red Hook Tavern. The burger's very good. I never remember to make reservations there, so I always end up, there's this one little corner they'll put you in by the door if you're desperate.

47:44Oh, I love that corner. I know that one. It's very drafty. It's so drafty. It's super drafty. I was there with two friends the other day, and we were balancing plates on our laps, but it was still enjoyable. It was still a good experience. So I've gleaned from the show, and we'll talk about the sushi episode, which I'll link to in the show notes, which is wonderful journalism. And we'll get into it without spoiling. I don't want any spoilers in this conversation because I've got to listen to your episode. But I've gleaned you a work down in Wall Street. So what's the lunch like in the search engine office?

48:15Are you guys doing group lunches? What's the deal? Okay, so I didn't understand before I started working on Wall Street that in my head, I've lived in New York for, I think over 15 years now, but I didn't spend any time on Wall Street and I thought it was still like the 80s and there's like bankers with like giant ties, whatever. They've all left. They're in Midtown. So Wall Street is kind of a ghostly neighborhood. There's not a lot of options or if there are, I haven't found them. I go to Subway a lot. Yeah. I go to Subway like a lot, a lot. Like I eat a lot of half-sized sandwich for lunch.

48:50There is a Xi 'an famous food, which is pretty good. Oh, Xi 'an is, but you can't do the lamb burger like five days a week. No, exactly. It's like a special occasion. And afterwards I can't work for two and a half hours or I'm just like digesting. Is it pronounced Xi 'an? Xi 'an, like the province in China. That's, yeah, Xi 'an. I should say there's a Xi 'an famous food. Yeah. There's a Whole Foods where I'll just like go for the salad bar. Yeah, right on. But there's like a lot of places. I don't want to like denigrate any establishments, but there's a lot of those sort of those restaurants where you're just like, who goes here?

49:22Like they're sort of like, they're kind of expensive and touristy. They're not particularly wonderful. They get foot traffic, but like just sort of the mid townie, whatever feeling diner that isn't, hasn't been there for a million years. And you're like, it doesn't seem like the spot you would totally adore. there's like a lot of that so it's tricky um the thing i've been doing recently when i really really want to treat myself is getting a full joe's pizza to the office and just splitting it with the team um which has been really good no joe's is slept on you see the lines in midtown you're like oh man joe's is a tourist trap it's still good i think it's still really good joe's pizza is good now back to subway yeah okay are you doing seafood seafood i'm not doing the seafood at Subway.

50:07We'll get to it. All right. If you did the seafood at Subway after that sushi story. No, and actually someone did, for the Times at some point, someone had questions about their seafood and tested it. I can't remember what they found, but the fact that it was worth testing scares me off. Yeah, I think it was a pre-Christian story. It sounds, yeah, that was definitely their questioning if it was a real crab, if it was an artificial crab, pollock, if it was. But what's your order then at Subway? I have a few orders. I do the buffalo chicken sandwich on the flatbread, which I think is pretty good.

50:43I do the meatball sub, which I would defend. And then they have an Italian sub, which I feel like I should stop ordering because I really, really love an Italian sandwich. And I don't think they're killing it there. Like, I think you want... They're not crushing it at Subway. They're not crushing it. It's not like DeFontes or... Oh, my God. I go to DeFontes a lot. I go to DeFonte's like alone on a Saturday morning a lot. PG, you're a sub guy. I'm a sub guy. I would say my favorite. Yeah. Yeah, I'm from Philadelphia. Yeah. Oh, cool. Where there's like a lot of hoagies, we call them. But like it is an enormous Italian roll sandwich culture.

51:20And that is still the thing that makes me happy. What do you think about John's Rolls of Pork? I really like it. I'm like kind of in the cheesesteak wars. I'm like a noncombatant. like I'll eat up and down, like really great cheesesteaks, really not great cheesesteaks. I think John's is very good though. I've gone back with my partner a bunch of times to Philly and tried to go to John's every time and every time it's been closed. And like we went, we went around Christmas and we like drove downtown because I'm in the suburbs and yeah, it's been disappointing. But John's is really good. John's is great.

51:55But I mean, like spoken like a true Philly local, you don't talk about cheesesteaks. No, no, no, no, no, no. Come on. No way. Yeah. No way. All right. A few more like introductory questions. I want to know about your breakfast routine. I feel like you have one. Do you have like a coffee breakfast practice? I have. So, okay. For a long time, what I was doing was the Nespresso pods. Yeah. Which was fine and was working okay for me. And then my friend Khalifa Sané, who's a writer and is like a really devout coffee person, has been slowly trying to radicalize me towards enjoying coffee. Oh, man. Yeah.

52:35You sound like most guests on the show and me trying to radicalize them. Oh, interesting. So most people are more like me. Most people are like you. It's a micro theme on our show, but we definitely, we try to like get into it because you should buy a fucking digital scale and weigh a coffee. Okay, so I will tell you about my week this week. I bought, so last, today's Tuesday. Yeah. Saturday, me and Kay went to three different coffee shops in Bushwick. we went to Say oh yeah I was on the the subscription for Say for about 18 months it's a good spot he's on the subscription he told me yeah so we went to we went to Dayglo Loveless and Say oh my gosh you didn't go to Drip is Drip does that that's my guy in Bushwick if I'm gonna go there but I do like Dayglo and Say you did alright okay he's trying to help me develop an appreciation for coffee so that I can enjoy coffee more so that I can make better coffee And I'm like, it's not like I'm being dragged into this.

53:29Like I've expressed curiosity and now we were following the curiosity. But we had like three different cups. I like rated the cups. He was like trying to, the thing I noticed most, the difference between being kind of an idiot versus him being a connoisseur is that we would have coffee. He would have a sip and immediately be able to characterize, you know, this has like whiny nose or whatever. For me, the first sip of coffee is just hot. It just tastes hot. Which is a positive response versus not hot. Not how it would be worse, but I don't know how coffee people can taste the first sip. We're going to get to some food questions.

54:03I feel like if you can do a coffee episode on Search Engine, you're going to really, really, really, really not regret it. I think we will because he's been just teaching. Like, I like the feeling, one of the things that we try to do with the show, or one of the things we look for in topics or stories or interviews, is if we can find something where, in a very minor way, once you've heard this interview, you'll, an experience you're used to having, you'll get to have in a different way. Like, you'll know a little bit more. You'll have different questions. Something might be funny to you that wouldn't have been funny.

54:34And my experience of drinking coffee with Kay is that. Like, he was telling me about Batch Brew. Yeah. And how Batch Brew is sort of a retronym. Like you didn't need to have a name for batch brew until recently, but now you do. And like, just that feeling of like, you're in a place you've always been in, but now you're noticing it differently is an experience I chase in the world. And when I feel like I'm learning about a subject area in that way, I'm trying to figure out like, what's the entry point where this could be an episode? Yeah. Your curiosity definitely shines through in the, in the episodes.

55:00And just to put a, to put a period on the coffee talk. Yeah. Batch brew is a retronym. It's a good call because now we've got hand brewing. We've got forced pressurized coffee called espresso. So we've got, you know, lots of different ways to make coffee. And I think, PJ, if you can get into that hand brewing and start tasting like natural coffees versus washed coffees. Yes. Go there. Go there. Well, so I bought, I don't, it's like my coffee budget is already spiraling. Yeah. I bought a digital scale. I bought, what's it called? The really nice grinder. Oh, you bought a Baratza? No, higher. Higher.

55:37Oh. I got a, oh God, it's coming today. Because like the Baratza is the one I use, the Encore. I told him I was going to get an Encore and he pushed me off of it. My gosh. Well. He told me to get. Encore is expensive. So what do you, you went more? Yeah, it was worse. He told me to get a fellow Gen 2 Ode Brew grinder. No comment. Oh, wow. No comment. It's okay. But it's so funny. it's funny to be the newbie in a space and to understand that you're like kind of like just like sashaying between like low stakes civil wars but not even have the level of appreciation like i told him i was like yeah i'm really excited i got like a a technover i'm like the mocha master yeah silence it was just like silence he was like i think you should start with the french press and then we we'll talk about what i think that that i'm not against a mocha I think that there's many ways to brew coffee, and there really isn't a preferred method.

56:37But tell me about that, The Fellow. We'll regroup later. Okay, yeah, it's coming today. If it's a mistake, it's inexpensive. Yeah, but really, when it comes to a coffee budget, and my listeners are going to understand this more and more, but it's a small luxury in life, right? It's not that expensive when you look at the relative prices. No, that was actually, so we were at Dayglo and we were looking at really expensive beans. And then Kay was just running me through the math where I think the most expensive beans, if you actually, you know, divided the price by this many cups, he was like, if you spend the most amount of money you could here, every morning you'll have a$4 cup of coffee.

57:17Agreed. And I like a world where luxury does stop there. You know what I mean? And the other thing I like, I'm not really, I appreciate food, but not at the level that probably a normal guest on this show does. But what I do appreciate is this feeling of getting to run experiments on what you like and perfecting what you like. And coffee is such a, in a way, the extraction process is so simple that for me, it has the potential to lock into something I can obsess over. Absolutely. It's literal math. I mean, if you have a unified extraction process, a ratio, and use the same type of water, and use the same temperature, and the same grind with the same grinder, you're going to taste the difference in all the different coffees you get.

57:58Yes, yes. And, you know, it's an affordable luxury. I mean, it's like$4 a cup for, like, the best of something in the world. Yes. It's incredible. Okay, let's move on, because I feel like Search Engine taps into our biggest questions. We'll get to sushi. We'll get to airline coffee. But I want to know, like, what's on your whiteboard right now, food-wise, questions? I'd love to, like, tap into what you're thinking about. Yeah. So is this, do you want to know questions? So the best part of this job for me right now is that I get, I don't really use social media very much, but I get, in place of it, what I have is an open email inbox that goes to my phone for the show where listeners are just constantly emailing me, like, the things that are bothering them in the shower or whatever.

58:44and so I have listener questions that aren't things we're actively pursuing but that I'm curious about there's some food things that we are actively pursuing like what do you want to know about oh I just want I mean we're not going to spoil any big big stories but like thematic like you know are you thinking about like the future of the grocery store are you thinking about I don't want yeah I just don't want I don't want to like spoil any of the show listen to search engine it's beautiful show but well what I can tell you the this will have come out by the time this airs because the next two weeks is like a minor food episode, which is about we're trying to solve the mystery of why in New York City and really any large city, why are there so many chicken bones on the street and like on the sidewalk?

59:27Wow. Which turned out to be a very rich mystery that we have solved. We set up surveillance cameras. We have answers. They are not the answers that anyone has spoken to has guessed. It's like kind of surprising. but also for that the the reporters who did this story wasn't me um they gave us a pocket history of the chicken and i had not known the chicken's like many thousand year history in relationship to human beings so that's one one that i want to pursue that i don't know if we're going to pursue is um why do we breakfast food for breakfast in america like why how did we settle on like like something kind of starchy and eggs and usually bacon.

1:00:06Yeah. Which is like a story. There's like a, there's a moment in American history where people who want that to be the case push for it. But like we haven't found the interview that would tell the story. There's another one I want to do. God, I really shouldn't, whatever. It's fine. I'm trying to get, do you know Toby Cicchini? Yeah, of course. I'm trying to get him on the show. Yeah. You probably go to Long Island bar. Yes. And the guy invented the Cosmo. Have you read his memoir about the Cosmo? I've read pieces of him and met him a few times, but never had him on the show. Yeah. He's just an unusual, I find his memoir, when we were piloting Search Engine, I was reading his memoir.

1:00:39A friend of mine recommended it, and I really loved it. He's such a, for someone who's so successful in the restaurant industry, to also be such a talented writer, I feel like is very rare. And so he has all these descriptions of what it was like to be kind of a hipster bartender in New York in the 90s and aughts. And he really paints the scene really well. and so I've been trying to find the other way we'll think about episodes is just like you like this person you want to tell their story what's the question that would allow give a listener permission to listen to it so we might have him on it might be as simple as like how do you make a Cosmo we're trying to figure it out yeah um because also it's so funny that he's like such a like cool hipster and then he invents his cocktail or perfects his cocktail or whatever I know there's like and then sex in the city happens yes right right sex in the city happens and it's like this This cool cocktail becomes the least cool cocktail.

1:01:32Yes. But it's like people's creations have a way of having lives beyond their intention. And I think that's really funny. I love that about the show. It really is an interview show in many ways. And I think many of the critics you've written about your show recognize that. That you're having these great conversations with characters. And you're kind of backing into these answers. Which love the show. And let's talk about Sushi a little bit. Again, no spoilers. I want you all to listen to the episode. It's terrific. thank you PJ have you been able to eat sushi since you started reporting this story in late November I I haven't been able to eat sushi from the restaurant that I was ordering it from so the story was like there was a takeout sushi place that I was ordering from really frequently it was making me ill very consistently I kept ordering from it which is a problem for another day I was wondering about that but we won't even get to that you're admitting these things and yeah um uh and and eventually i began to suspect that the i could have been a victim of of what is sometimes called um seafood fraud or fish substitution but people will or seafood mislabeling people will sell one fish as another and in particular in some sushi restaurants there's this like problem of people selling what they sometimes call white tuna but which is actually escalar or wallu wallu or the exlax fish yeah the exlax fish you'll never ever ever order escalar ever again if you listen to this episode yes i think it's a cautionary tale of what it can do to one's uh gi system but we like investigated the fish we dna tested the fish um i've still been eating sushi i like i my mind works in an unusual way uh which is that i tend to not notice anything and then notice one thing a lot and pay a lot of attention to it and then go back to oblivion and so it's kind of great it's like a journalistic trait it is a bit of a because you have to move on yes from topics but you have to like nail the one and go super deep and then put out the thing article podcast whatever yeah and i enjoy i enjoy thinking really really hard about something for a month and then almost never thinking about it again uh which is a weird it's it's like getting to be a tourist and a bunch of other people's interests so fish fraud is rampant.

1:03:47I think 70, 80 % of the seafood sold in America has some kind of fraud involved. It seems like that was a metric that came out of the reporting. Do you feel like it's going to get better? Do you think that we are going to turn the corner on this fraud or do you think that's actually embedded in the way seafood is sold? I mean, it's hard. The interview we did, we were talking to this academic who had tested a lot of fish and he'd found this very rampant fraud. And one of the things he said is that it's hard because seafood, it's like, we want it to appear on store shelves in a totally reliable way, the way like agriculture foods do, but it's, it's a wild thing.

1:04:29And so we want consistency from something that by definition really kind of shouldn't be consistent. So it's part of the problem. The other problem is just seafood in a way that you more often see in illicit markets like drugs. It just, there's a really long supply and it passes from one person to another. And every one of those steps is opportunity for adulteration. Right. And then you get the end of it, the line, you get to the market, and then there's just like vague labeling. Yes, there's very vague labeling. And that's actually been this academic we spoke to, Dr. Peter Marco. One of the things he said was, so he'll publish these studies where he'll test, you know, red snapper, which is a commonly substituted fish.

1:05:10and whenever his studies get attention, the only real change he's noticed is that some seafood sellers will now just label things more vaguely so that they're not committing fraud. They're just doing marketing. It's just hedgier, yeah. Yes, he's seen fish just sold as fish. I mean, truly, that's the best way to hedge any weird better or avoid any kind of loxies. Yeah. Great, terrific episode. Listen to it. And briefly, you did an episode about airline coffee and it definitely got some press and was passed around. A great episode, too, What do we need to know about airline coffee? So this episode we did, we were investigating a rumor.

1:05:47A friend of mine had told me, which was that he said he'd heard that under no circumstances should anyone drink coffee on airplanes. Because according to him, and according to a bunch of flight attendants he'd spoken to, the tanks that hold the water for the coffee, like the tanks in the body of the plane are very rarely cleaned and could be vectors for bacteria. so we did a very very thorough investigation into this and it was interesting it was sort of ended up being a story about rumors in a funny way because it was how do I put this so there was a point in time where you certainly should not have had coffee on airplanes and that point in time was much more recent than you'd think there was a homeschooled 13 year old science student who in 2002 I believe tested airline water and had all sorts of really troubling bacteria in it the wall street journal picked up that story they did more studies more stuff was found the government kind of got involved there's been some regulation um i think that the water on airplanes both in um coffee and otherwise is much safer than it was in the past what is true one the tanks can only be cleaned once a year but the water has to be tested much more frequently two almost no one we spoke to who studied this drinks the coffee on the planes like They all said, yes, it's much safer.

1:07:09No, we don't drink it. I ain't touching that shit. I ain't touching it. Yeah. Yeah, I ain't touching the water. That's why they have the little water bottles that you can buy for$6 on planes. Yeah. I'll link to that well in the show notes. Okay. Zooming out a little bit, this struck with me. In a recent episode, I'm not sure which one, but, quote, refining your taste is not always for a net good. What does that mean, PJ? This is something I think about a lot. And I think about it with coffee, actually. It's like if you're somebody who, and this is often me, who kind of like moves through the world in a relatively oblivious way, everything is kind of fine.

1:07:44You know what I mean? Like a hamburger is a hamburger. You notice if it's cold. And as you become someone who has like more sophisticated or more refined or more intentional taste, yeah, you get to appreciate what is good about something that's good at a higher level perhaps. Maybe you're, of the experiences you have, the great ones are better. But you also just spend a lot of time being disappointed You know I was with my friend Calva When we were out doing this coffee tour His wife runs Pies and Thighs And so he Legendary place Very great New York City Oh I'd love to meet his wife one day Let's link And so he knows food He knows food really well And so we had a pastry that day And he's chewing it and he pauses it And he says this was baked yesterday And I was like how do you know So he pulls up the pastry and shows me and there's a, there's one stale crumb inside of the bite.

1:08:40And he's like, that's a telltale sign this was made yesterday. I would not know that. And I'm not totally sure I want to know that. Like, not because it's like gross to have a pastry from the day before, but I just mean like, I feel like if you don't refine your taste, you live in a totally fine, happy middle. You don't have the peak experiences. But once you refine your taste, you spend a lot of time just being disappointed in order to sometimes be really happy. I mean, it's like with drug use, like chasing the dragon. Totally. Once you like figured out like, oh my God, I had the best coffee in Copenhagen at that one market, you know, at that one day.

1:09:15And you're like, the rest of the coffees, it's just heinous. Yes, yes. And it really does remind me of drug users. It's like you are pursuing something that you will either never find or find fleetingly or found once. And maybe the answer, honestly, like if you were to defend here on this podcast, the concept of taste, maybe the answer is that the pursuit itself is the reward. Like this morning, I was like trying to extract this coffee the proper way. And like it was, it took me 45 minutes of trying to have coffee. Because I screwed up. You're on a journey, PJ. I'm very much on a journey. I'm glad we're capturing this.

1:09:52You're on a journey. So the first time I was like, I was supposed to grind the beans in a way that was coarse, but I don't have the new grinder. So I was using like just like a whirly blade guy. Yeah. Oh, you're using like an actual blade grinder? Yes. Like the ones that make the heinous sound? Yes. Oh, yeah. And I can't use that. And I was trying for it to be coarse. And so I ended up trying to make a cup of coffee and a French press that had like actual beans in it. So that tasted like sour, hot juice. It was really bad. Yeah. The second time went a little bit better. but I did have a thing where I was like the Nespresso used to do it in 30 seconds I'm not yet at replacement level Nespresso quality with this journey I'm on am I happy that I'm doing this and what I told myself and I think I believe this is that having something to think about was fun you know what I mean like learning something and I did I felt like it made me think of Breaking Bad I was like trying to get like a higher purity level of this coffee but yeah I think you're signing up for a less happy life perhaps but a more interesting one i love the sentiment about the journey i think about it a lot when visiting restaurants which we write about and i judge um i feel it's about the experience getting to the end result which is the food you're eating yeah and and really the the metrics are not just good or bad food it's like walking in the space and enjoying the the music or the aromas like that's part of it and i think we will focus so much on like the quality of the food on the plate and that's just not life.

1:11:18Yeah. And like, I think, I think sometimes the other thing that can be nice about if what we're celebrating is appreciation is just the feeling of, I don't know how to say this exactly, but being in a place where everything is just so, where everything's been done correctly and where, because you've looked for that experience enough, you can just appreciate the just so-ness at a deeper level. You know what I mean? There's this, dessert place called Chica-licious in the, it's East Village, I think? Yeah, there's one in the East Village. I think they had a few locations back in the day. But it's this woman and her husband.

1:11:53It's really small. And there's a way that they move around that restaurant that's so, I don't know how to explain it, but it's like being inside a clock. You know what I mean? And it's not just, the food's really good, but it's like there's a precision and a cleanliness and it's like you're watching a dance. And I feel like when we go there, it's like I just enjoy watching that dance. It doesn't matter if the dessert is not your favorite. No, and it's like the dessert's good. It's just like I've noticed that I'm going there for the experience of watching someone do something well. I think it's true connoisseurship when you realize that, to be honest.

1:12:25So I'm glad you bring it up. Thank you. Not to get in the weeds, we tease at the top, but I mean, we do podcasts here, you do podcasts. What the fuck's up with the industry? It seems really challenging right now. It is very challenging. How, how weedsy do you want to go? Well, we have probably five minutes. So let's just say, I mean, medium weeds. Yeah. We'll go shin length and eat weeds. I think you, um, run a system social, you were at Reply All at WNYC. There was a boom in podcasts, blah, blah, blah. Now the boom is, is passed. Um, do you think that, uh, the podcast as a medium can be sustainable?

1:13:06I think podcasting as a medium can certainly be sustainable. I think that whether the thing I love, which is sort of podcasting that's trying to, at least as part of its mission, it's trying to do what journalism, it's trying to be journalistic. It's trying to do what great magazines do in some form that's sustainable. I think it doesn't look like the high watermark. I don't think it has to be as bad as it is right now. But I think like one of the things that most of the people I talk to are saying is, look, during the boom, when ad rates were so high, this was an ad-supported medium, the advertisers backed out as the economy sort of flatlined briefly.

1:13:46And there was a lot of damage when that happened. And so if we're gonna do this, we just have to be a bit more creative about funding models. Like podcasting might be at least partially a subscription business, at least for the kinds of podcasting that it's not the only thing I like, but the kind of thing that I know how to make and like making, I think like, it's very interesting to be doing it right now. It's interesting to be doing it without a clear sense that it's safe. But with an instinct that I know there's an audience for the stuff we make. I know people like it. And so my hope is that if there's an audience, there's a future.

1:14:22It's just, I'm watching good things get destroyed. Right. And that's really, it's very sad and discouraging. I think with the audience to add to what you're saying, you know, we hear it from our listeners on this show and thank you for writing it. I get messages on Instagram like daily when I post interviews, the engagement is off the charts. He's like a weird boardroom. Like I have done all forms of media, television, print, I've done, you know, books. The engagement for podcasts is different. Your listeners, they, they, they want to continue on your journey, which a magazine article doesn't do.

1:14:51So to me, that means like somebody is going to be able to monetize that yeah yeah and i mean the somebody was saying this i was listening to peter kaka had like a bunch of it was like jonah peretti and nick denton and like sort of a bunch of geniuses i remember that that was like for that book that that uh ben smith wrote yeah yeah and somebody on that it might have been denton said that you know when you look at a form of media advertising tends to support media that reaches a lot of people who don't particularly care about the specific who wrote this article, where they're finding it. It's just like, it's grabbing people off the street.

1:15:29Subscriptions are for models where it's like, no, no, no. I love this thing. I have a relationship with this thing. The funny thing about podcasting is it's a medium that people have a deep relationship with. Like if you listen to a show, you spend hours with somebody and you know them, they end up revealing themselves in ways that they don't even intend to. That sounds like subscriptions, but podcasting was built on advertising. And so I don't, my inclination is you're going to have to ask people to pay in some capacity, which is just funny because the thing we thought we were reinventing was public media.

1:16:00And that is the public media model. The public media model. Yeah. It's the call to your listeners and have them pay five bucks a month. Yeah. So that's what I suspect. But I've been wrong a lot in media about what's going to happen next. And so I have a decent amount of humility about my forecasting abilities, but that's like when I talk to people, they're like, yep, we're going to, we're going to be asking listeners for money. I'm polling for you guys and I'll be the first to subscribe. I hope you do it. Thank you. Do you get voice recognized at restaurants? I do sometimes because I'm also loud.

1:16:30You've got the laugh too. Come on. I have a weird laugh. I have a weird. Not weird. It's like your laugh. Yeah. No, we listen to your show. It's like your laugh. Yes. I do sometimes get voice recognized at restaurants. And it's funny because what I can see happen is everywhere. It's not that often, but someone will sort of like, their ear will kind of cock like a, Basset Hound and they'll sort of look and then I'll watch them because no one knows what podcasters look like. I'll watch them bring up their phone, Google Admin search, look at my picture on their phone, look at me and be like, okay.

1:17:00And then they're happy. Oh, I love that. That's sweet. That's sweet. It's totally sweet. I'm sure when they actually say something, it's a sweet interaction with you. Yeah. PG, on This Is Taste, we ask guests about their discerning taste. So to close this interview, here's a little rapid fire, fast and furious taste check. Are you ready? Yes. The best fruit? Oh, watermelon. Okay. Is it like a short season? Short season, short season, short season. Definitely short season. The worst vegetable. Zucchini. Zucchini is a vegetable, right? It truly is the worst vegetable. It's both the worst vegetable and it looks like cucumber, which is totally like inoffensive, can be made very good.

1:17:36Like it's like an imposter. Good call there. The best dessert. Oh, I like dessert so much. Okay, lately for me, it's been, there's this fruit leather that they make in India that is, it's mango. They make it from like juicing mangoes and it's, it's, you know, it's like what would be in an American fruit roll up, but there are these little squares and they're much more concentrated and thick and they're very good. Would you get it like online Amazon or do you go to like a market? My partner brings them back from India when she visits her family. I'm like, my mouth is watering. It's really, I will try to source you some.

1:18:12They're really. Send me a link. Yes. Your favorite New York city restaurant right now. Oh, um, Sweeney's. Yeah, we covered. Is there anything else that pops in? I'm trying to think outside of Brooklyn, honestly, because I spend so much time eating in Brooklyn. Um, Suther's pretty good. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Fair enough. Your favorite American fast food chain? Taco Bell, I think. Okay. Although I tried to order it. I tried to order it on DoorDash. Oh. It's really, heat is like a really important ingredient in fast food. Yeah. Yeah, it really is. And honestly, tacos to go. No, never a good idea. It's not.

1:18:49It looks like a portable food. It suggests to you that it's a portable food. It is not a portable food. Are you feeling that fast food plus apps is like becoming this big thing? Like, I feel like, I mean, it's real that people are using apps to order fast food, not just DoorDash, but like the actual apps for McDonald's, for Popeyes, for Blink. Totally. Well, there was an argument online, not to get into it, but two writers who I follow were arguing about whatever. There's been this thing on progressive media where people are arguing about inflation and they're arguing somehow that turned into a fight about how whether people are going to vote for Republicans because of how expensive McDonald's is.

1:19:27And one of the writers was like, well, I ordered McDonald's on DoorDash and I noticed the price was really high. And I was like, wait, ordered McDonald's on DoorDash. And really my takeaway was I should at least once try ordering fast food in my house. It feels like a real giving in in a way that I hadn't yet. So I did. I ordered Taco Bell. I regret it. I think it should be eaten in person, if at all. Always. I think the bean burrito, seven layers, need a ballot menu within two minutes. Yes. But the apps are interesting, and I think they are a question about affordability of food, and McDonald's is getting up there.

1:19:57It is surprising. There's a McDonald's not too far from my home and a Burger King right near work that I do go to, and I'm always surprised. At first, I thought it was because I kept ordering the Impossible Whopper, and then I tried it with the regular Whopper, also expensive. Yeah. Another conversation. I think I used to live in Carroll Gardens for 17 years. I think I know the McDonald's. Yes. I've been there many times. Yes. Definitely a fan. Couple more. Favorite cookbook of all time. Anthony in the Kitchen. Because it's, Anthony was my roommate, Auntie Perowski from Queer Eye. Yeah. A lot of the recipes in that cookbook were recipes he taught me when we were roommates.

1:20:32So there's like a chili in there that really like, it's a very fond memory from my early and mid 20s that I still make. I love that cookbook. Anna Heisel, my old colleague, wrote a nice profile of him for that. that's awesome that's cool what about a recent cookbook discovery of yours oh um this is i'm this i'm really revealing my taste to not be that uh avant-garde when it comes to this stuff i've been so i've been cooking more lately i've been the last american to discover how great allison roman is um and then the other person who again is not like a newer cutting edge person is marcella hasan yeah um just because her stuff is so good.

1:21:10I just like anything that is like simple and powerful when it comes to food, because again, I'm like sort of a baby wandering into this and like her, that really famous. The 40 clove. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's so good. And people are surprised anytime I do anything like that. It's like if an animal started speaking, like everyone's shocked. So I appreciate that. They're like, we assume, you know, the canon of Italian cookbooks and Marcella is at the top. Yeah, that's such a turnoff when people get like, of course I know about Marcella. Yeah. Yeah, be a little more reminded. Be cool with your friends if they have just heard about Alison Roman.

1:21:47It's fine. Well, I'm lucky. I have friends who know a lot but are not unkind about sharing that knowledge with me. Those are great friends. Those are the friends you got to keep with us. I love that. A few more. Your favorite city outside America to visit for food? Tokyo. Yeah. Yeah. Can't argue. It's just like ramen and sushi. Can't argue. There's like 14 ,000 restaurants. There's 14 ,000 restaurants? 30 ,000 restaurants. I think there's actually 35 ,000 restaurants in Tokyo. That's so beautiful. I think I could Google that quickly, but I can't do it. But it's around that. It's a very, very, very, very cool city.

1:22:15A couple more. A cuisine you want to learn more about? British cuisine. Yeah. I was talking to a friend about how we were talking about whether there was bad food. I was like, British food. And she was like, have you ever had it? And I was like, no. She's like, do you know what you're talking about? I was like, no. She's like, you should try it. You should try this thing that you've formed an opinion on. So now I want to try British food. I think it's multitudes. It's seafood. it's regional cuisine we talk about it on the show there's been some amazing British chefs on our show love that hope you go on that journey to like coffee your British food journey last one your favorite sandwich oh god muffaletta oh that's pretty good right uh duh yeah totally yeah yeah yeah like tamponade if you go a little heavy it can be a little bit rough but what makes a good muffaletta honestly it's like everything for sandwiches for me is bread everything is like just that first like introduction whether with like the, it has that sort of like crispy shell into pillowy dough.

1:23:09So I would say bread and honestly the top of not like I'd like a sandwich. It's like a salty, briny, pickly, olivey situation. Honestly, that or literally like any Italian stuff, there used to be this place on, it was called Graham Avenue Meats and Deli, I think it was in Williamsburg. It was apparently according to some local tabloid mob connected and like perhaps a front um it's shut down but they had amazing sandwiches and i remember going just for the italian subs and afterwards feeling like if you guys were if this was a front for you to do crimes you should have just done the sandwiches the sandwiches were really good better margin than like the the heroin trade i would think so at this point yeah yeah the williamsburg sandwich trade the margins must be much doing better man I love it so much.

1:23:55There's a pop-up that occasionally happens, a muffled pop-up from Anthony Falco in New York, so definitely follow that guy. Yes. All good. PJ Vo, this has been really fun. Thank you so much for joining This Is Taste. Thank you for having me.

1:24:13This Is Taste is hosted by Eliza Abarbanel and me, Matt Rodbar. The show is produced by Shalia Harris and Pat Stango and edited by Clayton Gumbert. Theme music by Steve Rydell. Visit Taste Online at tastecooking.com and make sure to subscribe to our newsletter for updates on all cool things that are happening.